Wikidata:Property proposal/Membro della squadra nazionale
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Member of national sports team
[edit]Originally proposed at Wikidata:Property proposal/Sports
Not done
| Description | Is a subset of the property member of sports team (P54) and should be used in order to indicate only the senior representative national teams for which the sportsperson plays / played, or i.e. the test sides in rugby union or every team that grants international official appearance |
|---|---|
| Represents | national sports team (Q1194951) |
| Data type | Item |
| Template parameter | nationalmannschaft_tabelle in Template:Infobox Rugby Union biography (Q14373909) |
| Domain | human (Q5) |
| Example 1 | Diego Domínguez (Q1220419) → Argentina national rugby union team (Q646070) / Italy national rugby union team (Q113135) |
| Example 2 | Jonny Wilkinson (Q318920) → England national rugby union team (Q378628) / British & Irish Lions (Q733600) |
| Example 3 | Hugo Porta (Q919397) → Argentina national rugby union team (Q646070) / Sudamérica XV (Q3976615) |
| See also | member of sports team (P54) |
Motivation
[edit]This property could be useful for those infoboxes that have a separate section for the international activity of a sportsperson. Ie a footballer or a rugby union player have usually a separate section, distinguished from club/franchise activity (so far the property member of sports team (P54) doeesn't distinguish between domestic and international activity) , and would be possible collect data of the international activity from a separate property. -- Blackcat (talk) 09:26, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
Discussion
[edit]
Support David (talk) 09:09, 9 August 2018 (UTC)- Support. Thierry Caro (talk) 03:21, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
Notified participants of WikiProject Sports. Thierry Caro (talk) 11:03, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
Oppose. The information whether a member of sports team (P54) claim is for a national team membership or a club/franchise team membership should rather be derived from the team item itself (via its instance of (P31) claim). —MisterSynergy (talk) 11:12, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, @MisterSynergy:, but is unusable that way. Infoboxes have a separate section for national teams thus it's more practical if there's a dedicate property distinguished from club team. -- Blackcat (talk) 13:34, 24 August 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose that seems to be an issue with the way Wikipedia retrieves information from Wikidata. I am hesitant to create a property on this basis only. − Pintoch (talk) 08:16, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose per MisterSynergy --Pasleim (talk) 10:21, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose; per MisterSynergy. Regards, ZI Jony (Talk) 10:36, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
- @ZI Jony, Pintoch, Pasleim:, since you're opposed to this new property, could you kindly explain me how am I supposed to deal with data related to a national team (that every template on Wiki project treats separately) if they are included in the same property as generic club teams? -- Blackcat (talk) 13:54, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
- @Blackcat: to obtain the list of national teams, I would do as follows: 1/ retrieve all teams with member of sports team (P54) 2/ for each team retrieved, retrieve the instance of (P31) claim of the team and keep it only if it contains national sports team (Q1194951). − Pintoch (talk) 13:59, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
- @Pintoch: exactly what I wanted to avoid because I found a lot of national teams which DO NOT have the claim as national team. Moreover it forces me to add a supplemental check, whereas a separate property would fix every problem and wouldn't force me to rely on the correctness of a claim. -- Blackcat (talk) 14:03, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
- @Blackcat: well both solutions need you to add claims: either claims for the new property or new instance of (P31) claims. The solution we are proposing you will require you to add *less* claims (one per team, not per player). − Pintoch (talk) 14:08, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
- @Pintoch: Not at all, because I have to add the national team in the player's Wikidata item anyway, either in the current property member of sports team (P54) like now or in the probable new one for natioanl teams. -- Blackcat (talk) 14:11, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
- @Blackcat: but you are not alone! Other contributors already add member of sports team (P54). Their work will contribute to your infoboxes seamlessly, without the need to ask them to use a different property. If everybody creates its own property for its own infobox in its own language, there is no point in building Wikidata. The whole point is to share and reuse work across projects. This reuse can only happen if people agree to use the same vocabulary. − Pintoch (talk) 14:18, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
- Some statistics: member of sports team (P54) is used roughly 1.3 million times, with ~32k different values. Only 375 of the used items, with ~2000 uses, do not have a instance of (P31) claim. This looks fixable. Queries for values and instances, including use counts: [1][2] —MisterSynergy (talk) 14:20, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
- @Pintoch: Not at all, because I have to add the national team in the player's Wikidata item anyway, either in the current property member of sports team (P54) like now or in the probable new one for natioanl teams. -- Blackcat (talk) 14:11, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
- @Blackcat: well both solutions need you to add claims: either claims for the new property or new instance of (P31) claims. The solution we are proposing you will require you to add *less* claims (one per team, not per player). − Pintoch (talk) 14:08, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
- @Pintoch: exactly what I wanted to avoid because I found a lot of national teams which DO NOT have the claim as national team. Moreover it forces me to add a supplemental check, whereas a separate property would fix every problem and wouldn't force me to rely on the correctness of a claim. -- Blackcat (talk) 14:03, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
- @Blackcat: to obtain the list of national teams, I would do as follows: 1/ retrieve all teams with member of sports team (P54) 2/ for each team retrieved, retrieve the instance of (P31) claim of the team and keep it only if it contains national sports team (Q1194951). − Pintoch (talk) 13:59, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
- @ZI Jony, Pintoch, Pasleim:, since you're opposed to this new property, could you kindly explain me how am I supposed to deal with data related to a national team (that every template on Wiki project treats separately) if they are included in the same property as generic club teams? -- Blackcat (talk) 13:54, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose per the above. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:39, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
- Support under the property member of a sportteam you actually mix up different kind of teams. A national selection isn't the same as a sport club that play in a normal sport league (in my opinion the actual proberty is disambigous - should I just keep a player in it, when he is playing - or also if he stays in the club in other functions afterwarts? or should I put an entry, when he just was in the youth of the team?). If we don't have a seperate value for this, it's getting more and more difficult to reuse our data, because you have to differ two (or even more) categories of data that is summerized under one property. Even more difficult it gets, when a sportmen or -women plays more than one sport. We should keep this as easy as possible. Fundriver (talk) 10:57, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
- @Fundriver: I can answer how you deal with all those ambiguities. You should never remove member of sports team (P54), even if they leave the team -- just use start time (P580) and end time (P582) to define the timespan. If they join the staff and stop playing, they're no longer on the team, so you set the end time (and probably add position held (P39) or coach of sports team (P6087) for the staff position). If the club has a youth team, that should be a separate item from the main team (e.g. if someone played on the youth team of New York Red Bulls (Q204220), you'd set that they played for New York Red Bulls Academy (Q16956411)). If someone plays for multiple sports, that definitely is confusing — but how would this new property make things any better? In my experience, sport (P641) is almost always set correctly, so you can rely on that to deal with this edge case. --IagoQnsi (talk) 17:44, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
- with keeping the player in it i meaned in fact where to set the start and endpoint. Maybe you also have to tell, that the property in german tells you "member of a club or team". Fundriver (talk) 12:33, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
- @Fundriver: My understanding is that the property is only intended for players, so your start time is when you join the roster and your end time is when you leave the roster. Any other role you may have in the club is irrelevant (but could perhaps be represented with coach of sports team (P6087), position held (P39), and/or employer (P108), depending on what that role is). Perhaps the German description just needs to be reworded? --IagoQnsi (talk) 19:27, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
- with keeping the player in it i meaned in fact where to set the start and endpoint. Maybe you also have to tell, that the property in german tells you "member of a club or team". Fundriver (talk) 12:33, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
- @Fundriver: I can answer how you deal with all those ambiguities. You should never remove member of sports team (P54), even if they leave the team -- just use start time (P580) and end time (P582) to define the timespan. If they join the staff and stop playing, they're no longer on the team, so you set the end time (and probably add position held (P39) or coach of sports team (P6087) for the staff position). If the club has a youth team, that should be a separate item from the main team (e.g. if someone played on the youth team of New York Red Bulls (Q204220), you'd set that they played for New York Red Bulls Academy (Q16956411)). If someone plays for multiple sports, that definitely is confusing — but how would this new property make things any better? In my experience, sport (P641) is almost always set correctly, so you can rely on that to deal with this edge case. --IagoQnsi (talk) 17:44, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose per above. As Pintoch points out, you can figure out if a team is national or not by checking its "instance of" property. If the issue is that our data for national sports teams isn't always correct, this is not a good solution; in fact, it'll probably make the problem worse. There will surely be many cases where "member of sports team" is used when this property should have been used instead. If you add an infobox to a new Wikipedia article and see that the national team is mislabeled, just go fix that one item. Frankly, there aren't that many national sports teams -- it wouldn't be that much work to fix every team via script or even manually (there are only ~200 nations in the world, so you could fix every national team for a particular sport with no more than ~200 edits).
- User:Fundriver argues that this makes our data harder to reuse, but I would argue that the opposite is true. If you want to get all teams that a player has played for, you'll now have to query multiple properties where you used to only need one. It's also confusing because, where do we draw the line? English Wikipedia also separates youth teams and college teams -- are we going to create new properties for those as well? Another issue: if we make this change, how do we define the scope (Wikidata item of this property (P1629)) of member of sports team (P54)? Right now the scope is defined as sports team (Q12973014), but now it would have to be a list of every type of sports team except for national sports teams.
- All in all, this seems like it would create a lot of confusion to solve a problem that could easily be solved by other means. --IagoQnsi (talk) 17:30, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
- Oppose Per IagoQnsi. -Flixwito^(•‿•)^ 09:46, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
Not done, no consensus for creation − Pintoch (talk) 08:48, 16 February 2019 (UTC)