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Is your Special Character
TOO SPECIAL?Are you indulging in a few too many "special traits"? Is your story really an excuse to show off your Super Special Character? Are you committing a MARY-SUE/GARY STUE?
--> Dead give-away: Your favorite character is YOU only BETTER!
Who is Mary Sue/Gary Stue?According to SubReality.com:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“Mary Sue / Gary Stue is any original or deeply altered character who represents a slice of their creator's own ego; they are treasured by their creator but only rarely by anyone else. A Mary Sue/Gary Stue is a primadonna (usually, but not always badly-written,) who saps life and realism out of every other character around, taking over the plot and bending canon to serve their selfish purposes.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Mary Sue/Gary Stue “Self-Insertion”
in Manga Fan-fiction: According to Aestheticism.com:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“The Mary Sue [Gary Stue], as someone said, is the highest form of fannish devotion to a series. You like it so much you want to come play in it yourself. Most fan writers are content to do this by sneaking in under cover of one of the canon characters.
Slipping on my Hakkai mask, I jump in the jeep and set out for the west with Sanzou and the guyz, pretending all along that it's Hakkai telling the story I'm writing and not me at all.
Havers. *Of course* it's me and not Hakkai…”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-- For more details:
http://www.aestheticism.com/visitor.....less/index.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Too many Special traits spoil the Character.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ While not every "super-special!!!" character is actually a Mary-Sue/Gary Stue, they fall under the same rules because when one makes a "larger than life" character, they tend to be unbalanced and quite frankly, no fun to read. Think Superman without Kryptonite. When you have a character that never loses, you might as well write:
• Hero meets bad-guy.
• They fight.
• Hero wins. The end.
Where’s the fun in that? Where’s the challenge? Where’s the surprise? Where’s the suffering?
This is also known as Godmoding.
According to Burning Dumpster:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-- Godmoding: “Take the Mary Poppins slogan "Practically Perfect in Every Way" and remove the 'practically'. They're perfect little characters with no real flaws that can do whatever the hell they like. No one can contradict them or oppose them because they're always right. In fan-fiction, they're boring. In PBEM, they are a royal pain in the ass. Also known as an ‘avatar’.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-- For more details:
http://www.kalime.com/burn/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Think: How many ‘special’ traits does your pet character have? Let’s find out!
• Take this test: http://www.katfeete.net/writing/marysue.html
Despite all this, God-mode Mary Sue/Gary Stue characters AREN’T necessarily a bad thing. In fact, Mary Sue/Gary Stue is an excellent way for a beginning writer to experiment with story-telling. In fact, it’s the most common way a writer begins writing anything at all.
Key word: Begin -- not End.
God-mode, Mary Sue/Gary Stue (especially under the thin veneer of a favorite Manga character) only becomes a problem when one posts them on the Fan-Fiction sites where Readers can see them and Flame them for being too unbelievably perfect to identify with and/or too Out of Character (OOC).
So what do you do to keep your characters from falling into the black hole of Mary Sue/Gary Stue-ism?
Exercise your experience - but don’t fall in!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ A Story is nothing without good strong characters, but if you can’t use yourself, how do you write about the feelings of someone else? You Empathize -- you recall how you felt under similar circumstances -- but you don’t BECOME that character.
Examples…
The Lost Boys:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Michael is watching the girl of his dreams climb onto another guy’s motorcycle. She doesn't look happy about it, but she does it anyway.
The other guy, David turns to Michael and invites him to come along.
Michel’s motorcycle is only a dirt bike. There’s no way in hell his bike can surpass David’s.
David smiles. "You don't have to beat me. You just have to keep up."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What is Michael feeling through all this?
The Matrix:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Neo has just received a Fed Ex package with a cell phone in it. He's looking at it when it starts to ring in his hand. He answers it.
"Neo, this is Morpheus. You have to get out of there. Now."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What is Neo feeling through all this?
Underworld:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Michael has had one hell of a day. There was a shooting at the train station, and crap at his hospital job, and then when he goes home, he finds a really beautiful and incredibly strong girl who immediately tries to strangle him in his apartment.
Moments later, he's running for his life from things galloping after him on the walls and ceiling. He escapes into an elevator and the door closes. Then it opens.
A guy he's never seen before in his life smiles and says: "Hello Michael." Suddenly, bullets rip into the guy right in front of him. The guy falls forward onto Michel and bites him.
Out of nowhere, the strong girl comes back and drags the weird guy off of him.
The weird guy bursts into laughter.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What is Michael feeling through all this?
Making the Characters work WITH the Plot.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ There are roughly three essential characters in every story:
• A Protagonist with character traits designed to work AGAINST the plot.
• A sidekick to add complications and make matters worse.
• A Villain that the hero absolutely Cannot beat when the hero first enters the fray.
The hero and the villain should change and develop as the story progresses to allow the hero a toe-hold chance, and no more, to win. The rest of the cast may or may not have personal growth, but the hero and the villain must. This is where dramatic tension is generated.
Changing takes suffering. Both the hero and the villain should suffer emotionally and physically to allow for their personal changes. Think about how hard it is for YOU to change your mind about something important to you. That's the level of suffering you need.
If this seems a little formulaic, remember, it’s not what you HAVE it’s what you DO with it.
Let’s look at two different movies:
The Matrix -- Urban Fantasy
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
• A Protagonist with character traits designed to work AGAINST the plot.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Neo is a quiet computer hacker. He deals in facts, not fantasy. He's not an action kind of guy, but everyone thinks he's supposed to save the world. He thinks they're wrong.
• A sidekick to add complications and make matters worse.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Both Morpheus and Trinity believe in him, to the point that they keep risking their lives so he has to keep saving them.
• A Villain that the hero absolutely Cannot beat when the hero first enters the fray.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Matrix is a sentient mega-verse. Mr. Smith is a replicating Virus. Both are bound and determined to keep all of humanity deaf, dumb, and blind to what’s being done to them.
The Lost Boys – Vampire
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
• A Protagonist with character traits designed to work AGAINST the plot.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Michael desperately wants to fit in with a motorcycle gang that rules the entire town because he likes the girl that hangs with them. Michael does not believe in Vampires.
• A sidekick to add complications and make matters worse.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Michael has a nosy younger brother who is terrified of vampires.
• A Villain that the hero absolutely Cannot beat when the hero first enters the fray.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Michael absolutely positively cannot defeat an entire gang of Vampires.
In Conclusion…
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Make your Characters part of your story, not the Excuse for your story. Give them pain, give them heartache, and make them face their fears. Anything less cheats the reader out of some good healthy angst!
Enjoy!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DISCLAIMER: As with all advice, take what you can use and throw out the rest. As a multi-published author, I have been taught some fairly rigid rules on what is publishable and what is not. If my rather straight-laced (and occasionally snotty,) advice does not suit your creative style, by all means, IGNORE IT.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ookami Kasumi
http://ookami-kasumi.livejournal.com/
Category Story / Tutorials
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Perfectly good examples and, what I consider perfect advice.
Ah, so you've read one too many Mary Sue's too, eh?
I've seen plenty of them all over the place. Most in the Stories I read with on another forum.
I've seen them on every single story site that allows public posting, from porn story sites to this one here. It's particularly chronic with beginning writers. In fact, you can almost guarantee that if they've never posted a story before, it's going to be a Mary-Sue / Harry-Stu.
I certainly try not put in the Marry-Sue syndrome into my stories, mostly because I try to focus on thoughts and feelings, rather than special characters.
I happen to be one of those that plays D&D as well, and you can really see it there, with all the mary-sues, it's hard for me to fully enjoy a game, when I'm the only one playing a character that is not some egotistical wish-fulfillment.
I happen to be one of those that plays D&D as well, and you can really see it there, with all the mary-sues, it's hard for me to fully enjoy a game, when I'm the only one playing a character that is not some egotistical wish-fulfillment.
Oh yes, D&D, the ultimate arena for Mary Sues & Gary Stus.
Some things take a sledge hammer to get through.
-- Simply refuse to play with a character that powerful. If enough people refuse to play with them, they'll eventually get the idea.
-- Simply refuse to play with a character that powerful. If enough people refuse to play with them, they'll eventually get the idea.
There are some fellow players, who share the same idea as me, to play more than cardboard cut outs of power and fame, and rather, play characters with depth and flaws.
Though it's a dying minority, with this new Edition and what not.
Though it's a dying minority, with this new Edition and what not.
The reason I got out of RPing was that I preferred to write my own stories with my own hand-picked characters. I'm much too much of a control freak to allow anyone else to dictate what happened to my characters.
You're welcome.
-- Since when can a Fox slice rocks in half?
-- Since when can a Fox slice rocks in half?
I have seen a couple of self-insertion stories that really worked well, but in those the author admits that their character took off on them to become their own creature entirely.
I can't say anything about RPs. It's not something I do.
I can't say anything about RPs. It's not something I do.
You're welcome.
-- Since when can a Fox slice rocks in half?
-- Since when can a Fox slice rocks in half?
This is one thing that I'm always worrying about too. I don't feel like any of my characters are developed enough to say that they're Mary Sue's/Gary Stu's yet. But this is a good guide to spot red flags in my characters. :D
If you're not sure, take this test:
http://www.katfeete.net/writing/marysue.html
http://www.katfeete.net/writing/marysue.html
Is that good, or bad?
-- Am I about to be flamed?
-- Am I about to be flamed?
You realize they'll probably fight you on this?
-- Those that create Marty-Stu's and Mary-Sues are extremely fond of them.
-- Those that create Marty-Stu's and Mary-Sues are extremely fond of them.
I'll take all the blows if it means fixing their characters. RPing should be fun, not painful.
Agreed, however if their definition of fun is being able to destroy everything in their path, they may see you as interfering in THEIR fun.
The only way to deal with that kind of stubbornness, is by refusing to play with that character.
The only way to deal with that kind of stubbornness, is by refusing to play with that character.
Sadly, hon, from about 7 years of online experience (and 20 of tabletop roleplaying in dice-and-paper games), I've noted a great many, enough that I will generalize and say a majority, of online gamers are EXACTLY that: severe cases where their characters are essentially hyper-uberpowerful destruction machines that could one-shot good ol' Superman with their eyes closed, legless, and one-handed, and that's before breakfast. It's essentially convinced me to not net-RP whatsoever.
Just from the examples of the stories I've read written from RPs, it's convinced me too. (That and the sheer amount of head-hopping those things are rife with. I HATE head-hopping.)
Head-hopping? Odd term, unless you mean it literally.
Fr the most part, the "<y character is beyond your wildest imaginings" is so old, dried, dessicated, and mind-numbingly overused that its' mere presence nauseates me. Maybe in my old age (38) I'm getting overly discerning, but I personally think not.
Fr the most part, the "<y character is beyond your wildest imaginings" is so old, dried, dessicated, and mind-numbingly overused that its' mere presence nauseates me. Maybe in my old age (38) I'm getting overly discerning, but I personally think not.
Hon, I'm way older than you. I was playing D&D when it first came out in cardboard boxes. *grin* I'm just as under-whelmed by those over-used cliche characters as you are.
Head-hopping is when the point of view in a story changes, and changes, and changes, and changes...sometimes every few paragraphs, sometimes every few sentences. It's a pain in the ass to read.
If I see head hopping on the first page, I WON'T read the rest of the story, no matter how many people say it's good.
Head-hopping is when the point of view in a story changes, and changes, and changes, and changes...sometimes every few paragraphs, sometimes every few sentences. It's a pain in the ass to read.
If I see head hopping on the first page, I WON'T read the rest of the story, no matter how many people say it's good.
Ahh, I see, and thanks for the info there. As it's not polite to ask a lady her age, I shan't, though I admit to curiosity there. ^_^
As for the head-hopping, this I have seen in some cases. I understand the annoying disorientation.
As for the head-hopping, this I have seen in some cases. I understand the annoying disorientation.
I'm not ashamed of my age -- especially since I look a good ten years younger than I am. *grin* I'm 45.
Yes, head-hopping is VERY disorienting. It's even more of a pain in the ass when you like one particular character's POV but the story won't stay there!
Yes, head-hopping is VERY disorienting. It's even more of a pain in the ass when you like one particular character's POV but the story won't stay there!
*hugs*
Glad to find someone who fully understands, especially on the roleplaying end. I've run into a vast and sad majority who when you say RP think only one of two things: cybersex or "Oooh, my hypermegagod can kick your hypermegagod's arse!"
Thanks for posting stuff on it, too. I'll stack a watch, as I like your no-nonsense manner.
Glad to find someone who fully understands, especially on the roleplaying end. I've run into a vast and sad majority who when you say RP think only one of two things: cybersex or "Oooh, my hypermegagod can kick your hypermegagod's arse!"
Thanks for posting stuff on it, too. I'll stack a watch, as I like your no-nonsense manner.
I looked at my characters after reading this, and found a few flaws that i might need to work out, but for the most part, i think i dodged a ton of bullets by really working their past to be a more realistic (to some degree) then most others. anyways, thanks for this, it will come in handy as i work on my comic soon.
Glad I could help you in dodging a few more bullets. *grin*
thanks for that, my main issue is Hakiri, who would at times seem a bit over powered, but at the same time, he is sadly on a leash so all that power is kinda held at bay....
The best leashes are Mental Issues, like fear of their own power, or hating to use it. A truly obvious Marty-Stu character in Manga is the main character from Trigun. His unbelievably overwhelming power is almost never used because he's a Pacifist. He hates violence.
Well his is a fear his power will twist him, but also he has a ton of mental issues due to his massive knowledge, there are times he has to be locked in a room...when he calms down again from his mental breakage, the room is normally covered in writing with his blood, but most of it him trying to understand his powers better.
Sounds to me like you have a good handle on your character!
Thanks, i thought having such a major issue would kinda put his powers back in check. also...i could use your help on one thing, mind if i note you again?
Go ahead and note me, but don't ask me to critique your writing. I don't want to accidentally borrow your ideas for my books.
And yet he comes across as a relatable, believable character because his personality is so well exercised and he's home to some real personal flaws. I love Trigun.
Your point is a good one. A character has to have something to bring them down to Earth, so-to-speak. That's why something like, say, Smallville is so much more entertaining as a story than a Superman comic, even though it's the same character.
I have roleplay characters who are ridiculously powerful relative to the average human being, but their foe is all the more overwhelming, and their personalities are bent in all kinds of disturbed, dysfunctional ways as a direct result of their being who they are. It's quite fun to play with, really.
Your point is a good one. A character has to have something to bring them down to Earth, so-to-speak. That's why something like, say, Smallville is so much more entertaining as a story than a Superman comic, even though it's the same character.
I have roleplay characters who are ridiculously powerful relative to the average human being, but their foe is all the more overwhelming, and their personalities are bent in all kinds of disturbed, dysfunctional ways as a direct result of their being who they are. It's quite fun to play with, really.
I'm of the opinion that once someone realizes just how much fun a flawed character can be, they'll never go back to using plain ordinary Supermen.
Though in this case, the flaws must also be fun. As I can attest, it's no fun being a character with no real competence at anything.
But that is somewhat beside the point.
But that is somewhat beside the point.
A while back (several years) i played an rp that required you to introduce a "flaw" for every extra good trait you introduced to it - which actually just makes the characters more likable, as well as getting a story which is more interesting, as the flaws keep getting in your way.
<3 flaws.
and, haha, there are so many people who really need to read this.
<3 flaws.
and, haha, there are so many people who really need to read this.
When I played table-top RP games, you HAD to have a flaw to balance out any positive traits. As far as I was concerned, it made the game a lot more fun.
Show this to anyone you like, just try not to get me flamed for it too, 'kay?
Show this to anyone you like, just try not to get me flamed for it too, 'kay?
i played table-tops where you had to have flaws, and ones you didn't. definitely preferred the ones you had to. i always ended up with chars that were either dorks, losers or idiots. lots of fun.
I found it entertaining. Flaws tend to add a lot of character. (Pun intended.)
Wait so
My character is essentially me but with all that furry nonsense applied
oh, and fire.
HELP AM I A MARY SUE D:
My character is essentially me but with all that furry nonsense applied
oh, and fire.
HELP AM I A MARY SUE D:
Take this test and find out:
http://www.katfeete.net/writing/marysue.html
If it turns out that you HAVE made a Mary-Sue - all hope is NOT lost! All you have to do is add a mental issue and/or fear strong enough to balance out your character, to knock them down to human proportions.
Case in point, Vincent in FF7 is Chaos, the most powerful being on the planet, but he truly hates and fears that side of himself so he only uses it as a last resort. The rest of the time he just uses his gun.
http://www.katfeete.net/writing/marysue.html
If it turns out that you HAVE made a Mary-Sue - all hope is NOT lost! All you have to do is add a mental issue and/or fear strong enough to balance out your character, to knock them down to human proportions.
Case in point, Vincent in FF7 is Chaos, the most powerful being on the planet, but he truly hates and fears that side of himself so he only uses it as a last resort. The rest of the time he just uses his gun.
I recently (in the last fiscal quarter) made a self righteous journal about this very subject. Yours was a lot more helpful
Well, the idea behind a tutorial is to help FIX problems, not just point them out.
BTW: Icon Love!
BTW: Icon Love!
You make an excellent point. I suppose I wasn't trying to helpful just vent.
Re: Everyone loves Calvin. And I personally think that's one of his better quotables
Re: Everyone loves Calvin. And I personally think that's one of his better quotables
Venting has it's uses too - sanity comes to mind real fast. *grin*
Re: It IS one of his better quotes. I just thought it was incredible that Hobbes was the one with all the sense.
Re: It IS one of his better quotes. I just thought it was incredible that Hobbes was the one with all the sense.
Quite. ^__^
Re: Which makes it all the more believable that poor Calvin is transposing a portion of his personality to him so he can allow himself to do whatever he pleases
Re: Which makes it all the more believable that poor Calvin is transposing a portion of his personality to him so he can allow himself to do whatever he pleases
Nice to see constructive advice instead of back-and-forth bitching :) I'm sure it will help many :)
I'm firmly of the opinion that a tutorial should point out ways to FIX a problem, not aggravate it, or alienate the people one is trying to help.
Bitching only pisses people off. How does that help anything?
Bitching only pisses people off. How does that help anything?
"Where’s the fun in that? Where’s the challenge? Where’s the surprise? Where’s the suffering?"
Most epic sentence in your tutorials EVVVVVAR.
That said, I don't think there are any essential characters for a good story to exist, take Asimov's Foundation series. Practically no real hero, except for the Foundation itself, which loses to the Mule in turn. Not to mention that there's no real villain.
Most epic sentence in your tutorials EVVVVVAR.
That said, I don't think there are any essential characters for a good story to exist, take Asimov's Foundation series. Practically no real hero, except for the Foundation itself, which loses to the Mule in turn. Not to mention that there's no real villain.
Don't get me started on Asimov...
-- The man ADMITS to writing cardboard characters because the theory he's trying to espouse is so much more important than any of the characters.
Glad you liked my quote!
-- The man ADMITS to writing cardboard characters because the theory he's trying to espouse is so much more important than any of the characters.
Glad you liked my quote!
I have to agree there, most characters are pretty archetypal. Then again, the protagonist isn't a human - it's the Foundation itself.
On another note, after reading through the tutorial again, I'm happy to know that I'm not victim of making my characters too special. Then again, I tend to be pretty nasty to my characters in any fictuous setting (especially myself, when I appear). Everything except for permanent disfigurement and/or death is fair game. And even those two come into play sometimes.
Yay for sadism in fiction ;D
On another note, after reading through the tutorial again, I'm happy to know that I'm not victim of making my characters too special. Then again, I tend to be pretty nasty to my characters in any fictuous setting (especially myself, when I appear). Everything except for permanent disfigurement and/or death is fair game. And even those two come into play sometimes.
Yay for sadism in fiction ;D
I happen to admire sadists, very much.
-- But then, I'm a sado-masochist. *grin*
-- But then, I'm a sado-masochist. *grin*
Sadly, my tendencies are limited to fiction - I'm far too nice in real life. :(
The mirror opposite of me.
-- I'm much nicer in fiction (and in my postings) than I am in real life.
-- I'm much nicer in fiction (and in my postings) than I am in real life.
Make it a coffee and a smoke and you've got a deal.
Not bad, but it is possible to make a character too flawed. The Anti Sue is about the only thing worse than a Mary Sue.
Mary Sue/ Gary Stu characters remind me of when I was a kid and playing "monsters and heroes". I was raised on fantasy so that's what I played with my friends. I remember someone would make the "final blow" and the other that received it said something similar to "it doesn't hit me because I moved to fast and I'm now behind you and stab you through the heart. (CALI MA!!!)" I've seen that childishness in RP's also.
I also seem to be the only one in my D&D group that cares about making a true "character" and not a generic hero defined by his weapons.
This should be in the preface to every RP thread ^.^
I also seem to be the only one in my D&D group that cares about making a true "character" and not a generic hero defined by his weapons.
This should be in the preface to every RP thread ^.^
I played Monsters too when I was a kid -- as the monster. *grin* I would make it so that all of them had to hit me right after the other to take me down. Teamwork, don't you know.
This should be in the preface to every RP thread ^.^
You know, there is a PDF file...?
This should be in the preface to every RP thread ^.^
You know, there is a PDF file...?
You know, there is a PDF file...?
yes, not that everyone will read it
yes, not that everyone will read it
*shrugs* Even if they did read it, people would still do as they pleased.
The only way to convince someone that a Mary-Sue/Marty-Stu story is bad is by taking away the reason they posted it -- attention. Boycotting the story with the comment, "This would have been good if not for that one character," is the only way to get the point across.
The only way to convince someone that a Mary-Sue/Marty-Stu story is bad is by taking away the reason they posted it -- attention. Boycotting the story with the comment, "This would have been good if not for that one character," is the only way to get the point across.
*downloads to read at home*
*chuckles* Even with my home net down I gotta read it ^^
Hail! you!
*chuckles* Even with my home net down I gotta read it ^^
Hail! you!
Thank you, OokamKasumi!
That test will be an excellent resource. I ran my character through it and he scored pretty well, which is a little surprising when you consider that he was based almost entirely off of myself when I first invented him.
That test will be an excellent resource. I ran my character through it and he scored pretty well, which is a little surprising when you consider that he was based almost entirely off of myself when I first invented him.
"...my character ... scored pretty well, which is a little surprising when you consider that he was based almost entirely off of myself when I first invented him."
Ah, but that was when you first invented him. Sounds like your character has since become someone wholly himself since then. Good job! That's exactly how it's supposed to work. Characters should contain aspects of you -- not all of you.
Ah, but that was when you first invented him. Sounds like your character has since become someone wholly himself since then. Good job! That's exactly how it's supposed to work. Characters should contain aspects of you -- not all of you.
I so had to read this when I was having a mind block
This guide helped me so much, and I got some good ideas on what to tweak for my characters in the quiz ;]
Thank you!
Off-topic:
The Underworld's Micheal scenario made me laugh, which was what happened to him in a nutshell.. Poor guy.
This guide helped me so much, and I got some good ideas on what to tweak for my characters in the quiz ;]
Thank you!
Off-topic:
The Underworld's Micheal scenario made me laugh, which was what happened to him in a nutshell.. Poor guy.
I'm glad I was able to inspire you past your block!
When you break down Michael's scenario (Underworld) to it's simplest facts, it IS pretty damned funny.
When you break down Michael's scenario (Underworld) to it's simplest facts, it IS pretty damned funny.
Not much, but I suppose it bears repetition, along with both the reasons for a Mary Sue and how to avoid the error. Useful.
I would point out that Mary Poppins was Practically Perfect in the Julie Andrews incarnation only. The PL Travers version was the most ferociously proper harridan to ever bully a household.
Cheers,
OT
I would point out that Mary Poppins was Practically Perfect in the Julie Andrews incarnation only. The PL Travers version was the most ferociously proper harridan to ever bully a household.
Cheers,
OT
You know, I had noticed that when I read the book. I actually LIKED her as a harridan -- but then at the time, I had 3 younger brothers to manage.
Hola OokamKasumi -
I don't mean to be dismissive of either PL Travers or her famous nanny. I enjoyed the books greatly when I first read them; it was only later that I really started thinking about them more thematically. I was seven? Eight?
But the themes are there: rules are rules, and they may change and you may be able to change them, but the rules are still the rules. In a larger sense, fantasy and imagination are to be cherished only in private, never shared or discussed with the wider world. Mary Poppins seems to embody Victorian prurience applied to the fantastic. And I'd like to see the fantastic have wider appeal
Cheers,
OT
I don't mean to be dismissive of either PL Travers or her famous nanny. I enjoyed the books greatly when I first read them; it was only later that I really started thinking about them more thematically. I was seven? Eight?
But the themes are there: rules are rules, and they may change and you may be able to change them, but the rules are still the rules. In a larger sense, fantasy and imagination are to be cherished only in private, never shared or discussed with the wider world. Mary Poppins seems to embody Victorian prurience applied to the fantastic. And I'd like to see the fantastic have wider appeal
Cheers,
OT
"...Mary Poppins seems to embody Victorian prurience applied to the fantastic."
Well, yeah, look at the year the book was written: 1934, and where: England. Victorian sensibilities were STILL being practiced back then, in fact, many women still wore corsets.
"...I'd like to see the fantastic have wider appeal."
No argument there. Fantasy is merely a genre and like any genre, it can be used to present any theory or message the writer desires.
However, societies tend to prefer certain messages in their children's books no matter the genre. In 1934, the Victorian mindset was considered wholesome for children. (Rules are Rules, and not meant to be broken.) Because of this, and the fact that there were very few books written for kids to read back then, the book became widely read. The Disney movie made in 1964 kept the story popular, even though it no longer carried the same message as the original. (Rules are meant to be broken.)
Well, yeah, look at the year the book was written: 1934, and where: England. Victorian sensibilities were STILL being practiced back then, in fact, many women still wore corsets.
"...I'd like to see the fantastic have wider appeal."
No argument there. Fantasy is merely a genre and like any genre, it can be used to present any theory or message the writer desires.
However, societies tend to prefer certain messages in their children's books no matter the genre. In 1934, the Victorian mindset was considered wholesome for children. (Rules are Rules, and not meant to be broken.) Because of this, and the fact that there were very few books written for kids to read back then, the book became widely read. The Disney movie made in 1964 kept the story popular, even though it no longer carried the same message as the original. (Rules are meant to be broken.)
"...Mary Poppins seems to embody Victorian prurience applied to the fantastic."
Well, yeah, look at the year the book was written: 1934, and where: England. Victorian sensibilities were STILL being practiced back then, in fact, many women still wore corsets.
"...I'd like to see the fantastic have wider appeal."
No argument there. Fantasy is merely a genre and like any genre, it can be used to present any theory or message the writer desires.
However, societies tend to prefer certain messages in their children's books no matter the genre. In 1934, the Victorian mindset was considered wholesome for children. (Rules are Rules, and not meant to be broken.) Because of this, and the fact that there were very few books written for kids to read back then, the book became widely read. The Disney movie made in 1964 kept the story popular, even though it no longer carried the same message as the original. (Rules are meant to be broken.)
Well, yeah, look at the year the book was written: 1934, and where: England. Victorian sensibilities were STILL being practiced back then, in fact, many women still wore corsets.
"...I'd like to see the fantastic have wider appeal."
No argument there. Fantasy is merely a genre and like any genre, it can be used to present any theory or message the writer desires.
However, societies tend to prefer certain messages in their children's books no matter the genre. In 1934, the Victorian mindset was considered wholesome for children. (Rules are Rules, and not meant to be broken.) Because of this, and the fact that there were very few books written for kids to read back then, the book became widely read. The Disney movie made in 1964 kept the story popular, even though it no longer carried the same message as the original. (Rules are meant to be broken.)
^-^ i really like this, and it's good to have a guide to follow by, I took the test with my first character, and it didn't really match up all that well..... mainly because of the fact that she's a phoenix (and hence, can't really die((or at least won't stay that way)) unless you take extreme precautions) .... and the ability she shares with me, the ability to make friends out of a wide verity of people..... but at least I admit she's a little too Mary sue, I'm still working on her design and I made her in middle school.
Good job on this ^-^
Good job on this ^-^
I'm glad you liked it!
-- I think the first characters we make are always Mary Sues -- mine certainly were. *grin* I think it's just part of the growing process that all writers go through.
-- I think the first characters we make are always Mary Sues -- mine certainly were. *grin* I think it's just part of the growing process that all writers go through.
yeah, i ran my new characters through and they all passed, actually even the character i made soon after the first one passed with flying colors. i guess your first character is like your first crush, you just always love them. -cuddles Kiro-
I think it's more fun to write about how a character deals with setbacks and defeat. I once wrote a story where the main protagonist's greatest contribution to overthrowing the tyrant sorceror in the final battle was realizing that the weakest member of the party was the *real* 'chosen one' and tossing the dingus-of-power to them just before being killed.
"I think it's more fun to write about how a character deals with setbacks and defeat."
I do too! Very, very much so.
"dingus-of-power"
-- ROFLMAO! God, what a perfect description!
I do too! Very, very much so.
"dingus-of-power"
-- ROFLMAO! God, what a perfect description!
It's what you feed your maguffin after a drink of phlogiston. : )
Now how am I supposed to get my Maltese Falcon to drink such a flammable substance without colour, odour, taste, or mass in order to feed it my dingus-of-power?
This should be a mandatory read for anyone submitting a work of fanfiction to any corner of the internet.
LOL!
-- Thank you so much. However, I have discovered that those who need to read something like this the most are usually the ones who will refuse ANY advice given to them.
-- Thank you so much. However, I have discovered that those who need to read something like this the most are usually the ones who will refuse ANY advice given to them.
You forgot one of the most well-known Garu Stu: Mister Wesley Crusher, from Star Trek: The Next Generation. Created by Gene Roddenberry himself, and named after him: Gene's real name is Eugene Wesley Roddenberry. Everyone who watched the series knows what I am talking about. He brought the Enterprise or himself in troubles more than once but always managed to save the day via some even more unbelievable means than usual.
He is the son of the ship's Chief Medical Officer, he is liked by everyone, and sometimes pitied because his father died in the line of duty when he was a baby. He often befriends the occasional teenage alien girl, he knows every little system of the ship by heart, despite being only a teenager, not even old enough to become a Cadet in StarFleet (though, at one point through the series, he became an Acting Cadet! ) and, finally, it is revealed that his mind can influence time and space themselves, and he embarks on some journey with an alien with similar powers.
He is the son of the ship's Chief Medical Officer, he is liked by everyone, and sometimes pitied because his father died in the line of duty when he was a baby. He often befriends the occasional teenage alien girl, he knows every little system of the ship by heart, despite being only a teenager, not even old enough to become a Cadet in StarFleet (though, at one point through the series, he became an Acting Cadet! ) and, finally, it is revealed that his mind can influence time and space themselves, and he embarks on some journey with an alien with similar powers.
You forgot one of the most well-known Garu Stu: Mister Wesley Crusher, from Star Trek: The Next Generation. Created by Gene Roddenberry himself, and named after him: Gene's real name is Eugene Wesley Roddenberry.
Holy Crap! I had NO idea!
-- But then, I preferred watching Babylon 5.
Holy Crap! I had NO idea!
-- But then, I preferred watching Babylon 5.
I completely agree with your observation about Wesley Crusher. If you look at a lot of the episodes dealing directly with him in Youtube you will find he is hated by almost everyone. A good example of people being able to spot a Sue character. Some of that hatred can be attributed to Wesley being a complete and utter whiny or ass kissing brat (depends on the episode you are watching) but not all of it.
The thing I hated the most was his last episode. He created a problem as usual and then the Traveler showed up to tell him it was his time to go beyond or whatever. So thanks to being talked into it by the Traveler he leaves his friends and comrades in the middle of an escalating threat situation. Talk about a complete abrogation of responsibility. Wesley even told this guy he was responsible but he allowed himself to be led away anyways.
The thing I hated the most was his last episode. He created a problem as usual and then the Traveler showed up to tell him it was his time to go beyond or whatever. So thanks to being talked into it by the Traveler he leaves his friends and comrades in the middle of an escalating threat situation. Talk about a complete abrogation of responsibility. Wesley even told this guy he was responsible but he allowed himself to be led away anyways.
Even though I started writing with "original" stories (there's no such thing as original anymore) I always ended up with Garry Stu's. Today, while using the test mentioned, I noticed how cliche they were. Then I took a look at the fanfiction insert characters I designed... the things that were similar were the fact they had the same skin colour and orientation.
After seeing this post, I want to go around all those RP threads and sign up just to post this and run.
Nowadays, designing characters that are unbelievably different than me are up my ally.
After seeing this post, I want to go around all those RP threads and sign up just to post this and run.
Nowadays, designing characters that are unbelievably different than me are up my ally.
It's normal to start with Gary Stu/Mary Sue stories.
-- Wanting to 'play too' is usually the reason why most writers begin writing. It's getting past that point and thinking up stories for characters Other than one's self that's difficult--and the sign of a someone willing to write beyond simple wish-fulfillment.
After seeing this post, I want to go around all those RP threads and sign up just to post this and run.
They won't thank you. They LIKE playing their wish-fulfillment games.
Nowadays, designing characters that are unbelievably different than me are up my ally.
Finally got bored with yourself, did you? LOL! I certainly did, and fast too. I had all these great ideas that 'my character' just wouldn't work for, so I HAD to come up with characters that would.
-- Wanting to 'play too' is usually the reason why most writers begin writing. It's getting past that point and thinking up stories for characters Other than one's self that's difficult--and the sign of a someone willing to write beyond simple wish-fulfillment.
After seeing this post, I want to go around all those RP threads and sign up just to post this and run.
They won't thank you. They LIKE playing their wish-fulfillment games.
Nowadays, designing characters that are unbelievably different than me are up my ally.
Finally got bored with yourself, did you? LOL! I certainly did, and fast too. I had all these great ideas that 'my character' just wouldn't work for, so I HAD to come up with characters that would.
After having posted my stories on some other sites I have had a couple of comments accusing me of making Gary or Mary Sue characters. The idea I had for my characters makes them power characters. Even if they did stumble into that power they still have it.
But let's focus on Lucifer Adams. I took the test and I must say it is only a little right and a lot wrong. Maybe I am rationalizing here but that is how I feel. I know the test is not exact but it is damn close with all my other main characters.
<i>Lucifer Adams is only a little like you. He isn't really very cool: he blends into crowds, he hangs out on the fringes at parties, and wearing shades after dark makes him run into things. He may have sometimes thought that he was special, or destined for greater things, but probably dismissed the idea as a fantasy. He's had more than his fair share of hard knocks, and probably spends more time than he ought moaning about it. And he's gotten no slack from you.</i>
I made Luke into everything I am not but wanted to be. He is how I would like to be in looks, talent and life itself if I had my way. Maybe the difference is he has everything I didn't have. He doesn't have to worry about money and is self confident enough not to care if everyone likes him. He has his friends and those he loves and he is happy with that. But he will stand out and be memorable no matter what. Except for the story his life is really easy but it is his life not mine in general. In the specifics his life differs from mine. But then again I wouldn't want to go through what I put Luke through.
He does have my temper but unlike real life I can sit back and think about what Luke would do unlike how I usually fly off the handle. Yelling and acting like an asshole tends to over shadow all the good points in any argument you make now matter how good those points are.
<i>In general, you care deeply about Lucifer Adams, but you're smart enough to let him stand on his own, without burdening him with your personal fantasies or propping him up with idealization and over-dramatization. Lucifer Adams is a healthy character with a promising career ahead of him.</i>
Yes Luke has his own life. That is because of the idea I had for a story that I used him and his friends in. Maybe that is the difference. Luke is me but I didn't create him for this story or create the story for him. The story may have helped to develop him into his own person but he is still me.
This was all a while ago and before the comments I mentioned at the start of this post. Now I am Ryt Sannys or Synnastyr. Still I am starting to develop Ryt in the same way. I have another story planned that will show him as his own tragic character.
So am I missing the point here or have I found myself in the middle ground. Have I made Sue characters or are they just power characters being confused as such? I will still admit to Luke being me because that is how he started and there are still a lot of ties to me that he has. Or, as with being offered a chance to make different choices in life, has he become a different me?
Maybe I am just confused as hell and create a character and play with him as if he were me a bit then give him his own life.
I think that if you are telling a story that will show up easily enough but if you are trying to show off a character you are really into and proud of you might want to take some time to re-think yourself.
But let's focus on Lucifer Adams. I took the test and I must say it is only a little right and a lot wrong. Maybe I am rationalizing here but that is how I feel. I know the test is not exact but it is damn close with all my other main characters.
<i>Lucifer Adams is only a little like you. He isn't really very cool: he blends into crowds, he hangs out on the fringes at parties, and wearing shades after dark makes him run into things. He may have sometimes thought that he was special, or destined for greater things, but probably dismissed the idea as a fantasy. He's had more than his fair share of hard knocks, and probably spends more time than he ought moaning about it. And he's gotten no slack from you.</i>
I made Luke into everything I am not but wanted to be. He is how I would like to be in looks, talent and life itself if I had my way. Maybe the difference is he has everything I didn't have. He doesn't have to worry about money and is self confident enough not to care if everyone likes him. He has his friends and those he loves and he is happy with that. But he will stand out and be memorable no matter what. Except for the story his life is really easy but it is his life not mine in general. In the specifics his life differs from mine. But then again I wouldn't want to go through what I put Luke through.
He does have my temper but unlike real life I can sit back and think about what Luke would do unlike how I usually fly off the handle. Yelling and acting like an asshole tends to over shadow all the good points in any argument you make now matter how good those points are.
<i>In general, you care deeply about Lucifer Adams, but you're smart enough to let him stand on his own, without burdening him with your personal fantasies or propping him up with idealization and over-dramatization. Lucifer Adams is a healthy character with a promising career ahead of him.</i>
Yes Luke has his own life. That is because of the idea I had for a story that I used him and his friends in. Maybe that is the difference. Luke is me but I didn't create him for this story or create the story for him. The story may have helped to develop him into his own person but he is still me.
This was all a while ago and before the comments I mentioned at the start of this post. Now I am Ryt Sannys or Synnastyr. Still I am starting to develop Ryt in the same way. I have another story planned that will show him as his own tragic character.
So am I missing the point here or have I found myself in the middle ground. Have I made Sue characters or are they just power characters being confused as such? I will still admit to Luke being me because that is how he started and there are still a lot of ties to me that he has. Or, as with being offered a chance to make different choices in life, has he become a different me?
Maybe I am just confused as hell and create a character and play with him as if he were me a bit then give him his own life.
I think that if you are telling a story that will show up easily enough but if you are trying to show off a character you are really into and proud of you might want to take some time to re-think yourself.
"I made Luke into everything I am not but wanted to be. He is how I would like to be in looks, talent and life itself if I had my way. Maybe the difference is he has everything I didn't have."
THIS is precisely what makes Luke a Mary Sue. He's YOU, only better. However, "Power" characters are Sues too BECAUSE they are power characters -- characters that Always Win. This makes them impossible for the average reader to really connect with because No One always wins. In fact, the average person rarely wins, so when they do win it's a huge deal.
"...if you are trying to show off a character you are really into and proud of..." <-- This is the sign of a Sue. This is exactly how Mary Sue stories happen. Sue stories ALL begin with a character the writer adores.
Even so...! Whether or not your characters are Sues is NOT a matter of Right and Wrong. Professional authors use Sues regularly, and people even Like them. However, this tends to Limit the author in what they can and cannot write. Every time you create the character first, you create a BOX, meaning you've trapped yourself into ONLY making stories that fit that character.
When I write, I come up with the Story first, then design the characters that will make that story happen. The complete opposite of what you do. However because of this, I can quite literally write ANYTHING: mystery, horror, romance, porn, sci-fi, gothics, fantasy...literally any thing at all. I am only limited by what I can research.
On the other hand, your stories aren't paying your rent, where mine are. They're playtime for you, so there's really no need to worry about what you write if YOU enjoy it. However, if you want your Readers to enjoy them too, you might want to consider expanding your horizons just a little.
THIS is precisely what makes Luke a Mary Sue. He's YOU, only better. However, "Power" characters are Sues too BECAUSE they are power characters -- characters that Always Win. This makes them impossible for the average reader to really connect with because No One always wins. In fact, the average person rarely wins, so when they do win it's a huge deal.
"...if you are trying to show off a character you are really into and proud of..." <-- This is the sign of a Sue. This is exactly how Mary Sue stories happen. Sue stories ALL begin with a character the writer adores.
Even so...! Whether or not your characters are Sues is NOT a matter of Right and Wrong. Professional authors use Sues regularly, and people even Like them. However, this tends to Limit the author in what they can and cannot write. Every time you create the character first, you create a BOX, meaning you've trapped yourself into ONLY making stories that fit that character.
When I write, I come up with the Story first, then design the characters that will make that story happen. The complete opposite of what you do. However because of this, I can quite literally write ANYTHING: mystery, horror, romance, porn, sci-fi, gothics, fantasy...literally any thing at all. I am only limited by what I can research.
On the other hand, your stories aren't paying your rent, where mine are. They're playtime for you, so there's really no need to worry about what you write if YOU enjoy it. However, if you want your Readers to enjoy them too, you might want to consider expanding your horizons just a little.
"I made Luke into everything I am not but wanted to be. He is how I would like to be in looks, talent and life itself if I had my way. Maybe the difference is he has everything I didn't have."
THIS is precisely what makes Luke a Mary Sue. He's YOU, only better. However, "Power" characters are Sues too BECAUSE they are power characters -- characters that Always Win. This makes them impossible for the average reader to really connect with because No One always wins. In fact, the average person rarely wins, so when they do win it's a huge deal.
"...if you are trying to show off a character you are really into and proud of..." <-- This is the sign of a Sue. This is exactly how Mary Sue stories happen. Sue stories ALL begin with a character the writer adores.
Even so...! Whether or not your characters are Sues is NOT a matter of Right and Wrong. Professional authors use Sues regularly, and people even Like them. However, this tends to Limit the author in what they can and cannot write. Every time you create the character first, you create a BOX, meaning you've trapped yourself into ONLY making stories that fit that character.
When I write, I come up with the Story first, then design the characters that will make that story happen. The complete opposite of what you do. However because of this, I can quite literally write ANYTHING: mystery, horror, romance, porn, sci-fi, gothics, fantasy...literally any thing at all. I am only limited by what I can research.
On the other hand, your stories aren't paying your rent, where mine are. They're playtime for you, so there's really no need to worry about what you write if YOU enjoy it. However, if you want your Readers to enjoy them too, you might want to consider expanding your horizons just a little.
THIS is precisely what makes Luke a Mary Sue. He's YOU, only better. However, "Power" characters are Sues too BECAUSE they are power characters -- characters that Always Win. This makes them impossible for the average reader to really connect with because No One always wins. In fact, the average person rarely wins, so when they do win it's a huge deal.
"...if you are trying to show off a character you are really into and proud of..." <-- This is the sign of a Sue. This is exactly how Mary Sue stories happen. Sue stories ALL begin with a character the writer adores.
Even so...! Whether or not your characters are Sues is NOT a matter of Right and Wrong. Professional authors use Sues regularly, and people even Like them. However, this tends to Limit the author in what they can and cannot write. Every time you create the character first, you create a BOX, meaning you've trapped yourself into ONLY making stories that fit that character.
When I write, I come up with the Story first, then design the characters that will make that story happen. The complete opposite of what you do. However because of this, I can quite literally write ANYTHING: mystery, horror, romance, porn, sci-fi, gothics, fantasy...literally any thing at all. I am only limited by what I can research.
On the other hand, your stories aren't paying your rent, where mine are. They're playtime for you, so there's really no need to worry about what you write if YOU enjoy it. However, if you want your Readers to enjoy them too, you might want to consider expanding your horizons just a little.
First time I have seen a double post by the author on one of their own pages heh.
The definition of power character as I have come to know it is evidently different from the one you know. My characters ended up in positions of power. So if I am wrong in that I am wrong.
Nice couple of assumptions that are also wrong on your part as well.
When I write, I come up with the Story first, then design the characters that will make that story happen. The complete opposite of what you do.
I never base a story off the characters. Not short stories, not the main story that I am still working on or anything else. The fan fiction crossover I wrote? Feh it was a group effort by all involved. Each had their strengths that added to the whole as well as weaknesses that were exploited to some degree. That will not be found in what I currently have posted, but it will be once I the revisions done. I was trying to think of a plain old FF and my imagination gave me a nice little fight scene when I was listening to Slipknot's (SIC) where Luke gets torn to shreds. The rest of the story came from that.
On the other hand, your stories aren't paying your rent, where mine are. They're playtime for you, so there's really no need to worry about what you write if YOU enjoy it.
Despite the fact that what I write is not paying my rent my works are not playtime for me. I take my writing seriously and I write stories to tell that story for the enjoyment of others. It is my writing skills that are lacking not the story itself. In the few high school classes I was able to take at the various schools I went to I always received high marks in story content. I hope I can get to where I once was. Whether or not I am able to get published doesn't matter so long as I do the job correctly. In this case that means formatting, grammar, punctuation, structure and lack of redundancy heh.
However I am going to ASSUME you meant no insult in your ASSUMPTIONS. Just because Luke maybe a sue character does not mean the story is a sue story.
The definition of power character as I have come to know it is evidently different from the one you know. My characters ended up in positions of power. So if I am wrong in that I am wrong.
Nice couple of assumptions that are also wrong on your part as well.
When I write, I come up with the Story first, then design the characters that will make that story happen. The complete opposite of what you do.
I never base a story off the characters. Not short stories, not the main story that I am still working on or anything else. The fan fiction crossover I wrote? Feh it was a group effort by all involved. Each had their strengths that added to the whole as well as weaknesses that were exploited to some degree. That will not be found in what I currently have posted, but it will be once I the revisions done. I was trying to think of a plain old FF and my imagination gave me a nice little fight scene when I was listening to Slipknot's (SIC) where Luke gets torn to shreds. The rest of the story came from that.
On the other hand, your stories aren't paying your rent, where mine are. They're playtime for you, so there's really no need to worry about what you write if YOU enjoy it.
Despite the fact that what I write is not paying my rent my works are not playtime for me. I take my writing seriously and I write stories to tell that story for the enjoyment of others. It is my writing skills that are lacking not the story itself. In the few high school classes I was able to take at the various schools I went to I always received high marks in story content. I hope I can get to where I once was. Whether or not I am able to get published doesn't matter so long as I do the job correctly. In this case that means formatting, grammar, punctuation, structure and lack of redundancy heh.
However I am going to ASSUME you meant no insult in your ASSUMPTIONS. Just because Luke maybe a sue character does not mean the story is a sue story.
Well, if you don't post it as a Reply, the person you're writing to doesn't get notified that they have a reply. Since you can't Erase a posted reply -- double-post. *shrugs*
I never base a story off the characters.
-- If you're creating the characters first then making stories specifically with that character in mind, that pretty much sounds to me like you're making a story to suit the character.
...my imagination gave me a nice little fight scene when I was listening to Slipknot's (SIC) where Luke gets torn to shreds.
-- Could you have crafted a whole other character for that scene, or was Luke the only character that 'fit' that scene?
Despite the fact that what I write is not paying my rent my works are not playtime for me.
-- You missed my point darlin'. My point was that the only people you need to please are yourself and your readers. Writing is an Arte you are striving to perfect. This gives you a hell of a lot more leeway in how and what you write than me.
Fiction Writing is my Occupation. What I do is Not an Arte -- it's a Craft that I sell. Unlike you, I have restrictions on what I can write and how I write it; rules I have to follow. You don't. You don't have publishers telling you what kind of characters to use, or which ones to cut out of your story, what setting to use, or have to follow content guidelines. This article was written with those restrictions in mind for those who wish to become a Published Author. If being published is not your goal then this essay doesn't even apply to you.
However I am going to ASSUME you meant no insult in your ASSUMPTIONS.
-- Please... If I was going to insult you, I would do it openly, rudely, and point-blank. I don't believe in playing 'polite' games.
My articles are here to help those who WANT that help. If you don't want my help, don't read them.
I never base a story off the characters.
-- If you're creating the characters first then making stories specifically with that character in mind, that pretty much sounds to me like you're making a story to suit the character.
...my imagination gave me a nice little fight scene when I was listening to Slipknot's (SIC) where Luke gets torn to shreds.
-- Could you have crafted a whole other character for that scene, or was Luke the only character that 'fit' that scene?
Despite the fact that what I write is not paying my rent my works are not playtime for me.
-- You missed my point darlin'. My point was that the only people you need to please are yourself and your readers. Writing is an Arte you are striving to perfect. This gives you a hell of a lot more leeway in how and what you write than me.
Fiction Writing is my Occupation. What I do is Not an Arte -- it's a Craft that I sell. Unlike you, I have restrictions on what I can write and how I write it; rules I have to follow. You don't. You don't have publishers telling you what kind of characters to use, or which ones to cut out of your story, what setting to use, or have to follow content guidelines. This article was written with those restrictions in mind for those who wish to become a Published Author. If being published is not your goal then this essay doesn't even apply to you.
However I am going to ASSUME you meant no insult in your ASSUMPTIONS.
-- Please... If I was going to insult you, I would do it openly, rudely, and point-blank. I don't believe in playing 'polite' games.
My articles are here to help those who WANT that help. If you don't want my help, don't read them.
I do that all the time myself just never saw it on a persons own page is all =]
So what if I created the character first. You still think it sounds..........but you are still wrong. Whatever brought about the inspiration did not use the several other characters I have. Though to answer your question a few others with powers could have easily fit in. Any of the others could have so long as they had been the one to stumble into power as Luke stumbled into being Lord of Hell which is where his power comes from. Well not really stumble but he sure as hell wasn't looking for it when he and his wife were fighting Mr Split Hoof himself to save their son. Mind you he is no Devil so he is not Lord Evil or so he would tell you.
When someone calls what I do playtime when they have no clue about the person themselves or the ethics they apply to what they do...no I did not miss the point. I read your tutorials exactly for the reason you have stated. While I many never be published it is something I would like to have happen. At least I would like to write as an author needs to write. My mind has picked that as the right way to do the job and I always try to do the best job I can. You may have your editor, publisher, whoever to please but I have to please them as well to get my foot in the door. Your tutorials are excellent and well worth reading so knock off the bullshit about I don't have to read them if I don't want the help. That was COMPLETELY beside the point.
Also Please yourself. You are talking about being consciously insulting and I agree with you on that. There is no reason to suffer fools. But once again you better have the information at your disposal before you go off on a tangent and start picking things apart in complete ignorance. Thought without input is like trying to use a bucket to fill a tub but the bucket has no bottom, you get nowhere.
That is where the insult comes in. You took it upon yourself to judge my works and therefore judge me without knowledge. I won't even bother with the crap about Thou Shalt Not Judge since that is complete, uh to be redundant, absolute crap. A persons decision making process for anything is based upon pure judgement.
Does Luke win in his actual main story? Yes he does though I would call it more surviving the circumstances to get specific. But his story is along the lines of Superman 2, Spiderman 1 and 2 as well as Army of Darkness. Mistakes, consequences and problems as well as the situations are of a level that is on an escalating curve on par with his growing strength and gains as is the fan fiction / crossover. BUT it is still a story created to fit the character(s) and I will never deny that. Consciously or not does not matter though it was like someone was dumping ideas into my head rather than any actual planning. The FF CC I have posted is not. Unless promising the web comic creator that I would put his world back exactly the way I found it counts. The cross over could have happened with almost any character.
You are a snotty bitch and I am a fucking asshole. Let's keep this convo going cause it's getting fun!
So what if I created the character first. You still think it sounds..........but you are still wrong. Whatever brought about the inspiration did not use the several other characters I have. Though to answer your question a few others with powers could have easily fit in. Any of the others could have so long as they had been the one to stumble into power as Luke stumbled into being Lord of Hell which is where his power comes from. Well not really stumble but he sure as hell wasn't looking for it when he and his wife were fighting Mr Split Hoof himself to save their son. Mind you he is no Devil so he is not Lord Evil or so he would tell you.
When someone calls what I do playtime when they have no clue about the person themselves or the ethics they apply to what they do...no I did not miss the point. I read your tutorials exactly for the reason you have stated. While I many never be published it is something I would like to have happen. At least I would like to write as an author needs to write. My mind has picked that as the right way to do the job and I always try to do the best job I can. You may have your editor, publisher, whoever to please but I have to please them as well to get my foot in the door. Your tutorials are excellent and well worth reading so knock off the bullshit about I don't have to read them if I don't want the help. That was COMPLETELY beside the point.
Also Please yourself. You are talking about being consciously insulting and I agree with you on that. There is no reason to suffer fools. But once again you better have the information at your disposal before you go off on a tangent and start picking things apart in complete ignorance. Thought without input is like trying to use a bucket to fill a tub but the bucket has no bottom, you get nowhere.
That is where the insult comes in. You took it upon yourself to judge my works and therefore judge me without knowledge. I won't even bother with the crap about Thou Shalt Not Judge since that is complete, uh to be redundant, absolute crap. A persons decision making process for anything is based upon pure judgement.
Does Luke win in his actual main story? Yes he does though I would call it more surviving the circumstances to get specific. But his story is along the lines of Superman 2, Spiderman 1 and 2 as well as Army of Darkness. Mistakes, consequences and problems as well as the situations are of a level that is on an escalating curve on par with his growing strength and gains as is the fan fiction / crossover. BUT it is still a story created to fit the character(s) and I will never deny that. Consciously or not does not matter though it was like someone was dumping ideas into my head rather than any actual planning. The FF CC I have posted is not. Unless promising the web comic creator that I would put his world back exactly the way I found it counts. The cross over could have happened with almost any character.
You are a snotty bitch and I am a fucking asshole. Let's keep this convo going cause it's getting fun!
No, it's not fun. You've just succeeded in pissing me off.
I do not post my essays for the purposes of debate. I post them because these techniques have proven successful. I also post answers to questions. This particular essay was written in answer to: "What is a Mary Sue character?"
If you don't like what my research on the subject has unearthed, bitching at me won't do you a damned bit of good. Go take your temper out on the people that supplied the source information.
As for my judging your characters, how about this? Your character is a Mary Sue. The test told you it was, and by your own admission, you create characters then make stories that feature them. That's a Mary Sue. Either live with it or don't. Personally, I could care less.
And yes, if you are not writing for Money, you're writing for pleasure. That makes it a HOBBY --> Play. Get over it.
You can reply if you like, but I will not answer it. I am done speaking to you.
I do not post my essays for the purposes of debate. I post them because these techniques have proven successful. I also post answers to questions. This particular essay was written in answer to: "What is a Mary Sue character?"
If you don't like what my research on the subject has unearthed, bitching at me won't do you a damned bit of good. Go take your temper out on the people that supplied the source information.
As for my judging your characters, how about this? Your character is a Mary Sue. The test told you it was, and by your own admission, you create characters then make stories that feature them. That's a Mary Sue. Either live with it or don't. Personally, I could care less.
And yes, if you are not writing for Money, you're writing for pleasure. That makes it a HOBBY --> Play. Get over it.
You can reply if you like, but I will not answer it. I am done speaking to you.
No you know what I try never to walk off on a person without setting the record straight. It is not about getting the last word in it is about being accurate. If you feel you have to do the same feel free. Unless you will continue to mash up what I have said to suit your own purposes. I don't have your education and hoped to benefit from it since you were being generous in sharing it. But even an uneducated slob like me can see the mistakes you have made in your replies to me.
What is so hard about understanding that I planned the story FIRST then chose the character for the FF/CC? I willingly admit to the main story. Let me say it plainly then.
I planned the Fan Fiction Crossover then chose the premade character.
Luke's main story is the one I admitted too. If you had read everything and understood it you would have known that!
I am not knocking your research or bitching at you. You mis-applied your knowledge since all you did was assume this and assume that.
You may be a hell of a writer but in this case your reading comprehension sucks balls.
I never admitted to making a story for a character except Luke's main story. I said character not characterS though I should have mentioned Luke by name instead of using wording that would allow anyone to mistakenly come the conclusion you did. Creating characters first is an old D&D habit that is a big no no I had to break myself of. I decided what classes I wanted thendeveloped dungeons based around those classes and had to deal with the players characters personalities as any DM would to keep the game/story going in the right direction. So yes I have practice in doing so. But like you and like you have said story first then character to fit story. If using a premade character in a planned out story before you decided on using that character then I am wrong and you are right. Go throw yourself a fucking party or something. I outlined the story, filled that outline in some more and went hmmm I think this guy and that girl would work best for this piece.
Judge my characters all you want but do it RIGHT! Take the facts at hand and use them! Or take what I have said as truth at least since there would be no real facts. Take your arrogance and get get a grip on it.
And once again is it so hard to understand that I am writing to try and get published? Yes I take pleasure in it but it is not play. Hobby yes but that does not mean play. Get over yourself.
I don't care if you answer or not so long as you read this and learn from it. As far as I am concerned you are worthless as a person. By the way you expressed yourself through type in these comments you have shown yourself to be someone who twists what they read and hear to keep themselves above others. You have failed to keep details separate and have used your comfort in your own self perceived status to just shoot off at the mouth about those mixed details just so you could be right and better than someone else.
Piss off you stupid bitch.
What is so hard about understanding that I planned the story FIRST then chose the character for the FF/CC? I willingly admit to the main story. Let me say it plainly then.
I planned the Fan Fiction Crossover then chose the premade character.
Luke's main story is the one I admitted too. If you had read everything and understood it you would have known that!
I am not knocking your research or bitching at you. You mis-applied your knowledge since all you did was assume this and assume that.
You may be a hell of a writer but in this case your reading comprehension sucks balls.
I never admitted to making a story for a character except Luke's main story. I said character not characterS though I should have mentioned Luke by name instead of using wording that would allow anyone to mistakenly come the conclusion you did. Creating characters first is an old D&D habit that is a big no no I had to break myself of. I decided what classes I wanted thendeveloped dungeons based around those classes and had to deal with the players characters personalities as any DM would to keep the game/story going in the right direction. So yes I have practice in doing so. But like you and like you have said story first then character to fit story. If using a premade character in a planned out story before you decided on using that character then I am wrong and you are right. Go throw yourself a fucking party or something. I outlined the story, filled that outline in some more and went hmmm I think this guy and that girl would work best for this piece.
Judge my characters all you want but do it RIGHT! Take the facts at hand and use them! Or take what I have said as truth at least since there would be no real facts. Take your arrogance and get get a grip on it.
And once again is it so hard to understand that I am writing to try and get published? Yes I take pleasure in it but it is not play. Hobby yes but that does not mean play. Get over yourself.
I don't care if you answer or not so long as you read this and learn from it. As far as I am concerned you are worthless as a person. By the way you expressed yourself through type in these comments you have shown yourself to be someone who twists what they read and hear to keep themselves above others. You have failed to keep details separate and have used your comfort in your own self perceived status to just shoot off at the mouth about those mixed details just so you could be right and better than someone else.
Piss off you stupid bitch.
I do that all the time myself just never saw it on a persons own page is all =]
So what if I created the character first. You still think it sounds..........but you are still wrong. Whatever brought about the inspiration did not use the several other characters I have. Though to answer your question a few others with powers could have easily fit in. Any of the others could have so long as they had been the one to stumble into power as Luke stumbled into being Lord of Hell which is where his power comes from. Well not really stumble but he sure as hell wasn't looking for it when he and his wife were fighting Mr Split Hoof himself to save their son. Mind you he is no Devil so he is not Lord Evil or so he would tell you.
When someone calls what I do playtime when they have no clue about the person themselves or the ethics they apply to what they do...no I did not miss the point. I read your tutorials exactly for the reason you have stated. While I many never be published it is something I would like to have happen. At least I would like to write as an author needs to write. My mind has picked that as the right way to do the job and I always try to do the best job I can. You may have your editor, publisher, whoever to please but I have to please them as well to get my foot in the door. Your tutorials are excellent and well worth reading so knock off the bullshit about I don't have to read them if I don't want the help. That was COMPLETELY beside the point.
Also Please yourself. You are talking about being consciously insulting and I agree with you on that. There is no reason to suffer fools. But once again you better have the information at your disposal before you go off on a tangent and start picking things apart in complete ignorance. Thought without input is like trying to use a bucket to fill a tub but the bucket has no bottom, you get nowhere.
That is where the insult comes in. You took it upon yourself to judge my works and therefore judge me without knowledge. I won't even bother with the crap about Thou Shalt Not Judge since that is complete, uh to be redundant, absolute crap. A persons decision making process for anything is based upon pure judgement.
Does Luke win in his actual main story? Yes he does though I would call it more surviving the circumstances to get specific. But his story is along the lines of Superman 2, Spiderman 1 and 2 as well as Army of Darkness. Mistakes, consequences and problems as well as the situations are of a level that is on an escalating curve on par with his growing strength and gains as is the fan fiction / crossover. BUT it is still a story created to fit the character(s) and I will never deny that. Consciously or not does not matter though it was like someone was dumping ideas into my head rather than any actual planning. The FF CC I have posted is not. Unless promising the web comic creator that I would put his world back exactly the way I found it counts. The cross over could have happened with almost any character.
You are a snotty bitch and I am a fucking asshole. Let's keep this convo going cause it's getting fun!
So what if I created the character first. You still think it sounds..........but you are still wrong. Whatever brought about the inspiration did not use the several other characters I have. Though to answer your question a few others with powers could have easily fit in. Any of the others could have so long as they had been the one to stumble into power as Luke stumbled into being Lord of Hell which is where his power comes from. Well not really stumble but he sure as hell wasn't looking for it when he and his wife were fighting Mr Split Hoof himself to save their son. Mind you he is no Devil so he is not Lord Evil or so he would tell you.
When someone calls what I do playtime when they have no clue about the person themselves or the ethics they apply to what they do...no I did not miss the point. I read your tutorials exactly for the reason you have stated. While I many never be published it is something I would like to have happen. At least I would like to write as an author needs to write. My mind has picked that as the right way to do the job and I always try to do the best job I can. You may have your editor, publisher, whoever to please but I have to please them as well to get my foot in the door. Your tutorials are excellent and well worth reading so knock off the bullshit about I don't have to read them if I don't want the help. That was COMPLETELY beside the point.
Also Please yourself. You are talking about being consciously insulting and I agree with you on that. There is no reason to suffer fools. But once again you better have the information at your disposal before you go off on a tangent and start picking things apart in complete ignorance. Thought without input is like trying to use a bucket to fill a tub but the bucket has no bottom, you get nowhere.
That is where the insult comes in. You took it upon yourself to judge my works and therefore judge me without knowledge. I won't even bother with the crap about Thou Shalt Not Judge since that is complete, uh to be redundant, absolute crap. A persons decision making process for anything is based upon pure judgement.
Does Luke win in his actual main story? Yes he does though I would call it more surviving the circumstances to get specific. But his story is along the lines of Superman 2, Spiderman 1 and 2 as well as Army of Darkness. Mistakes, consequences and problems as well as the situations are of a level that is on an escalating curve on par with his growing strength and gains as is the fan fiction / crossover. BUT it is still a story created to fit the character(s) and I will never deny that. Consciously or not does not matter though it was like someone was dumping ideas into my head rather than any actual planning. The FF CC I have posted is not. Unless promising the web comic creator that I would put his world back exactly the way I found it counts. The cross over could have happened with almost any character.
You are a snotty bitch and I am a fucking asshole. Let's keep this convo going cause it's getting fun!
Double posting is for dummies......So what do I do? The same exact stupid thing! DUH
And then when making fun of myself about doing it as well I did not realize the subject line would not completely show!
And then when making fun of myself about doing it as well I did not realize the subject line would not completely show!
You forgot the "She's loyal if she finds you worthy", because it's always your fault if the Sue doesn't trust you.
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