<3

I honestly can't stand the faggots who "can't afford" art. We are Proffessional Artists. This is how we get paid.

I can't believe these leeches. If you can't afford it, you shouldn't be going onto this site in the first place.

o.O

And thats all she wrote lol

says the one with no art

Very funny and yet so very true! }:=)

totally agree wih you.

OMG thats brilliant. I can't wait for more.

Yea I don't think my art is worth anything. I don't complain about it though. Price is price and people can set it to whatever they want imo lol

You're undercutting real artists with your crappy art. You're encouraging the parasites.

OH NO! NOT THE PARASITES! Lmao @ you responding to a comment I made 8 months ago ... I'm dieing ...
such bad troll
very make-my-morning

Oh there must be more of these o.o

Haha, that is awesome Rukis

That's funny yet...
Somehow...
It hurts deeply...

Please post more! :D I enjoyed this one! Made my day!

Gah so true lately.

I stopped buying art not because I do not want it but I have no wall space left, I am thinking of moving walls in this place. I need a sledge hammer.
I guess once the new walls are up...

You could always make a scrap book for your art! :) Get a binder and some sheet protectors, that's what I do!

I have lateral file cabinets.

Oh gosh LMAO.... That's alot....

Than share them with us.

Perhaps make a con badge series that one could wear. with all the different sentences.

there's a big difference between overpriced and not worth money.

That's not the point. People, especially furries, tend to put little monetary worth on art; no matter the quality.

The more frugal ones tend to shop around and find artists with similar quality, and then pick the artist that is willing to work for the lowest price. And in many cases, the cheapest artist is underpricing/undervaluing their work. Regardless of why, the artist and the buyer both get what they want. The artist gets their price and the buyer gets artwork of a certain quality.

Its really not that much different from the world economy, there will always be someone who can either do the same quality work for a greatly reduced cost, or someone who doesn't know how to price/value their work.

Your point is entirely valid, I've seen it quite a bit with up and comers. Which is why those of us who appreciate art as more than something to rub one out to, appreciate the efforts of up-and-coming artists and tend to be on more solid moral ground tend to over pay those artists and encourage them to value their art more realistically.

Moral is something fun to bring up. Cause in idea making everyone in the same level ask for the same amount sounds smart. But in practice, everyone wants money, and clearly If said offer is made the more famous/well known artist will thump the new guy in that game. So clearly It is wise If you are new to start on lower prices and work your way up. I know a fellow who takes $9 per char. I know people worse then him who want more. I've told him, (You should charge a bit more) and then he did comics to make more money. However the comic thing had some problems. (people taking 3 slots and taking ages to fill them out). So he spot that. It something when you use art as side job you gotta learn to control yourself and figure out time.

Also, lets not forget the fun people who take a year to finish something and dick around while they have Large amount of your cash. This person piss me off to the point that if I am gonna pay for someone work over a price, I want a sketch then they get paid.

Because in all do respect, this is a 2 way street. Artist do not want to be slaves, and buyers do not want to be treated like dumb pants with pockets full of cash.

If i could, i would fav this comment

agreed! ^

nice

I always thought if the work was more professional, that people would have less of a problem paying more. I mean, technically it is a customer service, however, most current artists don't treat it as such. More so, they focus on who does the most brown nosing.

Actually, It is more of the fact some artist don't feel that their work reaches the point they want It. So,they charge. It is more or less a very odd thing. However,It does seem people who ask for less cash tend to get more commissions. It also helps If they can zerg rush though commissions like muskets to warriors in Civ 5.

So they get more done fast and get paid more. The quality is not the problem, It is usually speed. Some people will wait a month while some will not.

In long term people want more bang for there buck. Usually people will go more the faster guy who charges less.

Unless they really like the person in question and really like their work.

Don't know much about brown-nosing, I just like to know who is doing what so nothing goes astray.

With me, that's the problem (one of them) I find with offering commissions (I haven't actually started offering them yet...can't decide on price.)...everybody wants art...but doesn't want to wait for it. I am NOT fast at art, it's just the way I am. I concentrate on quality, not quantity, and I feel that if I don't price that higher than everybody else, I won't make it in the art business. But I won't make it with higher price for higher quality anyway if nobody buys because they are cheap/impatient.

And THIS is why the furry fandom doesn't tend to average professional rates, because many furry artists are NOT professional about how they do work. Rukis is an exception, of course!

That, and it's very difficult to get into a professional career as a pure artist, and then you lose all the rights to everything you draw. Freelance artists who get to keep everything they make and don't have their stuff being used for a pure profit tend to average $10-$25 an hour on their work, which is what I feel is also fair for the furry fandom.

Valid point...

Rukis does her work (almost always) in a very, very timely manner and I've never faulted her timing (OFC, all of the works I've gotten from her were con on-site sketches and nothing in glorious full color that's far beyond my financial means).

I've worked with other artists, notably who wanted some or all of the money up front, who took forever... or never completed the work at all and it took two years to get a refund. Granted, the artist was DAMN GOOD, but... that sort of stuff is untenable for any sort of business relationship.

In other words a balance needs to be met between price, quality, attitude, and notoriety and it's no single faction (for lack of a better term) that carries the brunt of the responsibility to ensure fair prices, respected work, and an understanding atmosphere between artist and client. Everyone needs to do their part, to make sure that nobody leaves a job with a bad taste in anyone's mouth.

I don't think cost applies to how much someone values their work. While it's true that people shop around for similar styles at a lower cost, it doesn't make the artist any less aware of what they do. Also, I don't believe its anyone's place to tell someone how much they should value their work. If they enjoy doing it, then so be it.

That's pretty much the way I look at it. Yes, a great artist is usually worth what they ask. However, we live in a Capitalist society where the service for the best value tends to do the best. Unfortunately this means some artists end up working for less than minimum wage, which is a big part of why I encourage people to look at what they're worth, but then there will always be the hobbyist artists who don't mind because they enjoy drawing so much and don't depend on their art for a living.

As for furries not putting much value on art, I find that one of the most disgustingly ironic things about this entire fandom. We are a visual fandom that enjoys each others' ideas by nature, and yet people aren't willing to make sure an artist can survive off their work by paying more than they might for a lesser luxury? Irritates me.

Sounds like what I do. I go for quality/price ratio that I can afford and enjoy. I don't want to undervalue some artists, but some artists aren't worth what they price. I don't want to over-value others, but, some also under-charge for what they do. There are few that hit the golden ratio of quality and price that are equal to one another.

Pretty much...if the price is right...I spend the money...if not...I'll keep looking.

also nobodies forces you to buy their art,... people do commission them, so apperently IS worth it, and it IS being requested. I always find people complaining about someones prices, after all,.. it's not like we have the option of choice nowadays or so....

Actually I would like to argue against one part of this, furries are probably the MOST willing people to spend loads on art that I have ever seen on the internet.
This isn't to say that there aren't cheap furries-of course there are, there are people like that everywhere.

Compared to the actual industry prices which range in the thousands? Absolutely not.

Yeah cause that art industry is just *booming*

I'm not really sure what you're getting at.

I think he's trying to say that artists are a dime a dozen. The artists that get thousands are the lucky ones who made it in, hence the term "starving artist", because a vast majority of them barely make any money at all. It's a shame and I wish it was fixed, but that's also the truth.

The furry fandom is almost guaranteed money, but at the cost of not making as much of it per hour, I feel.

this isn't the industry, its fa. if both customer and artist is pleased, that's all that matters, but one has to keep in mind, this is NOT the industry, so one cannot expect someplace like fa to match it. if one wants industry prices, go tot he industry =3 honestly, I think the point stands, not trying ot be a dick, but its a different economy on this site, and many don't seem to realize this, and keep going on about industry prices, which I never understand,. when this isn't it(not being a jerk, just a thing I keep seeing, and have had my thought on)

It may not be the industry, but a service is still being provided. The prices artists charge for their services compared to the industry is laughable. The prices here are already adjusted to this economy. An artist should be able to charge what they feel is worth their time, regardless of this being the industry or not.

no, I have to disagree. yes, there are artists here whos grade of art easily hits industry, but your opinion, being a skilled artist, is somewhat biased I feel(no disrespect meant of course). this is not the place to make industry, if artists want to his that pay grade, they have to break into the industry, which some are capable of. I don't understand why more don't try. staying here, and expecting to gain the money of a broken in professional simply isn't world realistic. in a perfect world, yes, this would be true, but with economic issues, one cannot expect fa, which mainly as I can tell consists of mid to lower class individuals, to mimic industry. whether or not the art is worth it, and the artist feels its worth it, it cannot be expected, and, further, will not be made to match it here, just because it isn't feasible. I say this with respectful disagreement of course. simply recapping, yes it is a massive hit here, but, on the other side, not every artist here, even the good ones, are all industry level, and thus, do no have the relative skills to make it, which is why they are on the net, doing it this way. and, lastly, just because one feels that their art is worth it, does NOT make this the official true case.

Hold on, Ming and I are making essentially the same point. An artist should be able to charge whatever the heck they want and not get hassled about it. If they charge industry prices are they going to get sales? Maaaaybe? But that's their choice. If they bitch about slow sales and refuse to consider pricing adjustments, then they're an idiot. That doesn't entitle other people to harass them about their pricing, though.

As a side note, you're right that "just because one feels that their art is worth it does NOT make this the official true case," but there are plenty of us who, because of our training and experience, DO have a good and objective sense of how much their work is worth. To brush off our valuations of our work is to do us a disservice. If I know that my time is worth $10/hour (btw, that's a crappy rate for an artist), and it's going to take 4 hours to do your piece, who are you to tell me that $40 is too damn expensive?

for that last comment, by no means. . you and ming chee are good, no doubt. I refer more to the industry rates I have seen where it hits the like, 1700-2k area for a full illustration( I think that's close to industry) that isn't a reasonable, or even fair price in the fa market. one has to be fair to their audience, and if few can afford it, you disservice yourself by denying customers, and potential customers by expecting them to reach a price rack they cant match. and thing is, your valuations fo your art may be accurate in the industrial level, but again,a s you acknowledged, this isn't industry. as you word it, agree with what you say, and it makes sense as you put It out, one shoudnt be harassed on what they charge, despite all else, as there are many out there, but just as common sense goes, on simply has to stake out there stomping grounds for selling art. im glad you put this up, as I get hwat ming was getting at now too =3

There may have been a misunderstanding here. I never said there were expectations for FA or any art community site to match the industry. I was stating that, industry or not, an artist should charge what they feel is worth their time which, is still WAY lower than industry standard. Many artists here have already adjusted their prices to fit the with the economy on this site to something affordable. I don't have much of a problem with this.

What I DO have a problem is when people will try to convince artists that they are over priced and charge WAY too much. When really, in comparison, the amount we charge is charitable. If an individual feels that X price is not worth X drawing, then that's a matter of opinion. It is not fact to be used as justification to harass or shame an artist into lowering their price. They can simply move on and accept that THEY cannot afford it rather than preach to the fandom how the artist is a selfish elitist. NO the artist is not over charging. It just means they are out of that person's price range. That doesn't mean artist have to dumb down their prices to make things easier for them.

Art is a luxury, the same as the latest console that everyone is saving up for, or the newest game that everyone is waiting to pre-order. If people budget and save money for those luxury expenses, then should art not be treated the same?

okay, now I understand what is being said =3 and I agree with the charge wars deal, because as I said to bluelynx, there are many artists here, with a massive range of prices, and if one wants to go and price match, it is comparable to complaining endlessely to lower a price, when someone is unlikely to. though, I disagree simply that, yes, there Is such a thing as an artist overcharging, but, in most cases it is never the case. there are some, however, that their degree of skill, as high or low as it may be, isn't worth it. i mean, if i draw a scribble stick figure, and feel it worth industry price, yes, it would be A:stupid"B overpriced. it can be applied to art but art is difficult to do so, as it is in most cases such a close to the chest subject,as many put their heat and soul into their work. also, thing is, there are artists who are elitest, as well, but that is not selective to artists, anyone can be so, but that's the only point im making there. as for artists dumbing down, if they wish to make a income, yes, they might have to, but bluelynx put it best." If they charge industry prices are they going to get sales? Maaaaybe? But that's their choice. If they bitch about slow sales and refuse to consider pricing adjustments, then they're an idiot.". i understand your frustrations, with you being an artist, but honestly, while art is all valued based on the purchaser, IN MY OPINION, and in no way based on any fact or ruling, there is a level of price tag one can put on art, ranging of course. its just the market system as i understand at least. finally, though, your right. it is a commodity, and no matter what is said, in the end, art is what a person is willing to pay,and if the artist sets a tag, and someone pays for that commodity, then it is, in all honesty, completely fair, as the person made that value fair by purchasing it willingly

Yeah, sorry I wasn't clear on that.

I think in the end, it does come down to opinion and personal values. So although we slightly differ on details, we are generally on the same page. Overall, if people feel something is over priced, it is their right to express that opinion as an opinion. I'm totally cool with that as long as respect and courtesy is still present regardless of disagreement. Which btw, I am grateful we had a civil conversation like this :)

I agree, it does all come down to person to person in the end, which is why the topic is so tricky, and as long as a respect Is maintained, there is never an issue with one speaking or disagreeing, as long as its kept, well, respectful =3 it was very nice speaking to you on this subject

Oh yes absolutely! Respect goes both ways. It was nice talking to you too :3

An artist has the right to charge anything they want, but they aren't guaranteed to get enough customers because of that. Also, as I've said in a couple other comments, it's very difficult to break into the industry verses making money in the furry fandom, and once in the industry the artist tends to lose all rights to their work, bought by giant corporations that are going to use it for commercial reasons. I know a professional artist who was so burned out by that that they're now a freelance furry artist, and even though they don't make as much per hour, they have much more peace of mind and make just about as much money in general because it's no longer a chore to put in extra hours.

Basically, yes, industry rates are nice, but are they worth it?

Looking back, I don't think I very clear in my comment so I'm sorry for any miscommunication. You bring up a valid point and I don't disagree. It's one of the reasons I've chosen to offer my services in this community. Compared to other clients, they're just much more enjoyable to work with. I have absolutely no problem with how the prices have been adjusted here. I have zero expectations of FA or any other art community site to match the industry.

What I DO have a problem is when people will try to convince artists that they are over priced and not worth money. When really, in comparison, the amount we charge is charitable. I dislike it when someone gets upset and tries to shame or harass the artist into dumbing down their price just to they can get what they want. All while saying the artist is unfair or selfish. Or a customer happily spends money on artwork they like and a "friend" tells them to get their money back because they could have gotten it for cheaper. By no means am I suggesting artists to charge for industry prices. I'm simply stating that I wish people can understand and appreciate the affordable price range artists have set up for themselves here. Or at least accept it and gracefully move on instead of making a fuss.

In the end, it's less about the fandom's economy and more about respect. If people want to express how they feel x item is not worth x dollars(to them), that's fine, as long as it's respectfully expressed as and opinion, not fact. After all, art is a luxury item.

Sorry for the late comment, but I did want to say that I totally 100% agree with your comment. :)

Yes, industry verses fandom aside, artists tend to make chicken scratch for pay verses what they deserve. I'm soon going to enter an industry that averages $20 an hour for STARTING pay. At that point I'm going to strongly urge my friends to charge higher prices for their work, and I will be the first to start paying those higher prices.

So trust me, I totally understand how much a fair rate should be. My business partner  Libra-11 has amazing skill and yet at the end of the day he still makes below minimum wage, and that's just not right.

You're right, it's not the industry, so we artists can't necessarily *expect* to get paid at industry rates. We get that. What pisses us off, though, is when we do work for less than what our time is really worth (often less than legal minimum wage) and *STILL* get bitched at for charging too much.

Really, what we're asking for is a bit of courtesy and respect. If you can't (or won't) afford an artist's prices, please don't bitch and whine about how they're charging too much. Leave them alone and find someone you can/will afford.

that I agree with. its the same as trying to be like"oh I wish I could afford that..."it isn't respectful especially for those who, in a broken market in the states, rely on it just to live and pay bills. I mean, if one charges to much, one should simply find a price range that fits. fa is kinda free market, so there is a absolute plethora of artists of varying skills and expertises that fill the gaps.

charges to much for said persons taste I mean

Totally agreed with you on this comment. :)

Yes, people should stop bitching about prices. We live in a capitalist society, so find someone who will work at a lesser rate if you MUST, but until then recognize that everyone deserves a livable wage. To me this is at least $15 an hour for those who depend on their work, and still at least $8 an hour even to those who just do it for fun money on the side.

Eh, to be fair, some artists DO charge way too much.

Though too many people complain about artists that are relatively fair in their pricing.

People can charge whatever they want.

Getting someone to actually pay that much, however, is a very different thing! There's maybe a dozen furry artists that can charge whatever they want and people will pay it. For everyone else, you're worth what people are willing to pay, and it's very much a buyer's market.

On the flipside, you do get what you pay for. If you don't mind crappy art, then you can get something for $5 or $10. If you want slightly less crappy art, then $20 or $30. If you want something that actually looks decent, then you'll have to cough up money into the 3-digit range.

And honestly, what furry artists charge, even the top ones, is a pittance compared to what 'real' commercial artists charge. Even if they would consider doing the type of work furries commission, and most wouldn't.

Then there is the time invested angle. Some artists are faster than others, and again it shows. The simple sad truth is, even top-notch artists often barely break minimum wage, if they even do. There are a choice few artists who put out a decent product and can do it fast. That is extremely rare, quality costs in $$$ because it costs in time.

For an artist to actually make a 'good living' doing nothing but art, requires those prices you mention 'commercial artists' charging, when spread over the time invested in a piece, they are making a more respectable living. Furry artists, on the whole, love the art enough to tolerate making minimum wage or less to do it.

This is very much true. I'm only making minimum wage on my jewelery, I'd very much like to increase my prices so that I can buy more materials quicker and give my customers what they want, but unfortionatly for the time being I need to keep my prices low due to lack of customers.

I don't think people 'tolerate' the low prices as much as they have no choice in the matter. You either do it for that amount, or the customer will go to someone else will.

Example-- I was contacted for a commission not too long ago. Super-complicated-- 4 or 5 figures, full color, extremely complex background involving perspective, several action 'inserts' within the main image. For something that complex (not even counting preliminary sketches), my bare minimum would be in the $400 range, and that's low-balling it for the time and effort involved.

How much was I offered? $80.

Although I desperately needed the money, this was beyond anything I could take. That was about a week's worth of work I was looking at there. Could he get anyone to do something that complex for $80? Probably. Could he get someone who actually had some skill at draftmanship, composition and perspective? Probably not. It was up to him whether the saved money was worth the shoddy quality he'd get for it.

$400...

I only know one guy who would charge me that much for what you where asked. But he is a good friend of mine and I trust him to finish.

I know someone who would do It cheaper and faster with almost as much skill.


It is funny, art is a massive game of chance and alone I will use a quite of 4 I use.


Be cheap or Be fast or Be good or be friendly.

Be 2 you win the day

Be 3 you win the game.

It is how I take the people I pay for work.

I will play by there rules, and pay the prices. However, I only play for along as the rules are fair.

If you are to talk about the horrible evil freeloads known as buyers.

Then you get what you get.

If you talk about customers like they are dogs, then they will avoid you.

Many people don't mind paying for things, but they do mind the "All buyers are greedy" trope that has be fallen. You are not the only people with problems, some people have unforeseen things happen in life.

Some people get rent raised.

Some people have to help a brother out.

Some just have buy luck.

You have the right to ask for what you please, but just because someone does not wish to buy your crap for what you ask does not make them a freeloader.

You have your right to stand your ground, however don't act like the divide is clear.

For it is more faded then you think.

I've been doing this for many years and have never had complaints about work undelivered, too slow or substandard.

If you got anyone to do what I was asked to do for $80, I would love to see the image.


The saying is: "Do you want it fast, good or cheap? Pick 2."

He is on DA his name is digirunner.

You bring up some very good points too. Basically there's always going to be people who complain about an artist's price. Typically the status quo is you price your work similar to what your peers are doing for similar quality. I've had one artist tell me they were making less than minimum wage by the time they took on a commission. The ironic thing is those types tend to work far too slow to qualify as a professional concept artist. Those people need to be FAST. Not this 9-10 hours on your average furry quality artwork. Sometimes they do get a project in which they're commissioned to do say.. a poster and maybe have a week to go about it. But when they are comparing themselves to actual commercial work, speed is essential as well as quality.

It's not my problem those types work slow. The solution is to either raise the price and likely have less clients or work to improve speed while maintaining quality. The thing is too in a sense this is still more or less a form of retail and generally that's why it is recommended you set pricing similar to your peers based on skill/quality and for the correct sector. Expecting the private sector to pay similar to what the commercial sector will is generally unrealistic unless the private individual has the several hundred to spend on the work. On the flip side there are people who simply complain about the pricing because they have an interest in that artist and simply want to get something from them. To me that's actually a good thing because it shows a demand for your talent. Doesn't mean the artist would have to lower prices to accommodate but the complaining should be expected and simply accepted as part of doing business. If you went to a store that complained about it's customers right in front of them as a whole, not simply from one or two associates, I doubt one would be inclined to go shop there when there are friendlier alternatives.

If I know an artist has angst against clients in general, I typically avoid them. Tends to wind up with them putting less effort toward the commission I have noticed with some. If I feel someone has too high of a price I simply don't commission them and pointing out my perception of too high a price isn't going to change their minds anyway. But like in any form of consumerism there are going to be the vocal ones and honestly that's all part of doing business. Accept it and grow a thick skin I say. But yeah at the end of the day, they decide their prices but everything is based on a perceived "market" value but no one other than lack of business is stopping these artists from charging more. They also have the right to refuse a negotiated price if it's too low.

I'm kind of just sick of the hostel attitude from both parties. Weirdly enough It usually comes from the artist end,because most Spongers tend to stay quite because they know what they are doing.

And people have lives I understand that. However, to wait half a year for something. (which has happened) made me start making ground rules. Because of this one person, when I first commission someone I want to see a sketch. Then they get paid, right there.

There are art sponges,but also people who take the money and dick around for too long. And,It pisses me off. I had a person who was doing collage work, It took them 3 months to finish something. I understood that,I waited.

I had someone had a loss, I told them not to worry.

Someone was getting overworked with projects. I them we could change things to make It easier.

This person, has token nearly a year to finish something I paid him for. He has yet to show me progress, he has yet to show me anything. I've been on his listed,I've wait 3 months to ask someone If they are packed on stuff if they are done. He has never given me a reason why.

He is too slow to take the many commissions he has. He not only has money commissions but another type.

I really like the guy, but he is having too much shit go on and not updating progresses.

And It is kind of rattling my bones.

In my experience that is a large problem I've had when it comes to commissioning people. I have more people take several months to finish something that takes them a few hours or run with my money for a while then simply cancel out. I've had more cancellations on me than anything but I'm glad at least I did get my money back without much of a fuss. Some artists appear to justify the excessive time period because things come up and.... somehow keep coming up. The one that really does irk me as well is when you are in the queue but then the artist takes on more work or "emergency commissions" and those automatically get done ahead of the others. Kinda why I stick to someone like  lunalei because she gets the job done in a timely manner, she will work to make sure you are as happy as she can make you with her skill level and overall her prices are fair. But for me the important part is the reliability and she hasn't kept me waiting months for artwork. It's usually done within a month but very often it's more like a week or two.

But yeah some artists, particularly ones that do the sorta thing you've described really seem to have a severe lack of business sense. I think they get wrapped up in the notion they have this hobby that they likely wanna do as a pro... then they find it's as simple as basically posting an ad online for work and getting your name out there... then you pull in some money and that's it. They neglect the whole business aspect of it which includes customer service skill and a lack of understanding that you can be a high rate artist but if your reputation is not there you're very unlikely to thrive in the field. Customer trust is paramount above all else. Yes you can't please every single person possible but running around with people's money for months on end... that tends to damage trust. o.o

$80 for something complex like that? That is just insulting. Something like that is definitely worth at least $400. That is how much I would charge for it.

this, this this this this! You hit the nail on the head. Could not have said it better.

I agreed with your comment until the last sentence of your third paragraph and your fourth paragraph. I know quite a few people who can make something more than "decent" for under $100. Implying that the only people who charge $30 are "slightly less crappy" artists is very insulting.

And as I've said before about a lot of commercial artists, first of all it's extremely difficult to break into that industry, and secondly most commercial artists give up the rights to their work, which is why they're paid more right away, but are not allowed to sell their work on art CDs or even use those same characters again for themselves, so it's a pretty massive sacrifice. How much money is worth being given a collar and chain on your imagination?

To begin with, art is a luxury item, not a necessity. People (more so in this community) tend to perceive art as something that is easy to create, and therefore only worth as much as they have in their pockets. Many are not willing to shell out a larger sum, despite wanting a high quality piece of art. If a person charges $200 dollars for a commission which took them 72 hours to create, they are only making just over $2 per hour. That's way less than minimum wage. People shouldn't complain if they can't afford something they do not require for survival.

Especially in the fursuit area I find. I've seen people trying to commission someone asking for a full fursuit with all the bells and whistles, and expecting to pay not a penny over two hundred dollars. Then they get pissy when you tell them that's impossible due to all the bells and whistles costing at least $400 in materials, let alone all of the work they put into it. Some even rage quit as if they're intitled to it. I saw one girl selling fursuit heads for $35 dollars. But guess what, it didn't even look like an animal. Had no fur, just scrap badly sewn fabric, no way to look out of it, just horrid. The higher the price, the higher the quality in most cases.

I believe it all boils down to a general lack of respect toward how hard an artist works to create appealing products. It's sickening to see just how many people in our community fail to recognize that luxury items, by definition, aren't cheap. Some people go so far as to feeling entitled to such items for dirt cheap prices, and I've seen some people make awful excuses to "guilt" artists into lowering their prices. I don't know what it is with furries specifically, but they need to realize that they are damn lucky artists on this site don't charge commercial prices.

Just to chime in on that... they generally would not be able to charge commercial rates because that's more of a specific area in terms of pricing which is actually starting on a decline with more artists being outsourced to cheaper labor. Commercial pricing also includes 100% copyright as well which is typically where the actual money is since the company is intending to make the investment on the rights obtained by the works which is partly why the pay can be high in some cases. Don't get me wrong, I do disagree with people who basically bash an artist who happens to have high prices as if it's really gonna work to get them to lower it down but commercial pricing would not really be highly successful in the private sector which boils down to why they simply cannot do it unless they've built up some sort of name for themselves (which... they get to typically end up getting extra ridicule for). After all if they're already complaining about current pricing, raising them to commercial grade is not exactly going to keep them afloat generally so... it's not that commissioners are lucky.. it's more that the artist simply won't thrive on commercially priced commissions in this community.

most of them don't. Fasttrack, on the other hand....

Not to mention he conned us out of $35 for a comic he posted on the site anyway.

Well -that- is disappointing... :/

He's getting on my nerves more and more. I hear he's kind of a douche to people in person, too. doesn't really surprise me.

I saw, at AC.. he was selling SKETCHES for $120. I'm sorry.. that's a bit unreasonable... he can't be spending more than an hour, two TOPS on those sketches.

Eeeeesh. I have no problem spending $100 on a single image, and have spent $700 on one comic in the past. The issue in my mind is just how much an artist is making per hour. I don't want to overpay nor underpay for what someone puts into a piece.

That's what I mean. It's one thing to pay $100 for something that's approximately 4 - 6 hours of work, and another to pay that for 20 minutes of work. But again, that's just me, and I don't say anything to those artists because honestly? if someone is willing to pay that for their art then.. technically it's worth that.

gtfo...sketches? REALLY?

Yep.

It may be unreasonable to you, but not to him or others. As an artist, you can charge whatever the heck you want. He's charging what he thinks his time and art is worth. The only problem is the higher the price, the less amount of people can afford, or are willing to pay. Value is different for everyone. One person may look at a Piece of paper signed by a president and is willing to pay millions of dollars for it, where another person thinks its worthless.

.. if you look at my later response, I stated that while I feel it is unreasonable, moaning and groaning isn't my style because ultimately the fans of his art are willing to pay the price, therefore by default of the definition, it is worth that.

Just a little truth about the whole selling sketches at $100 for you there, the selling of sketches by me at AC this year were all silent auction based and FIVE images were produced a day for the three days I was there in the artist alley. My starting prices ranged from around $20 to $30 as a starting bid, but to my surprise, I found that in a very short matter of time that each bid was drastically increased with every bidder. Some silent auction sketches reaching above $200....Naughty artist who takes advantage of everyone else, who makes his sketch auctions low as hell, and then all those naughty people walking around wanting one increasing it...shame shame shame on the artist. ^^

And I'm very happy to know that to all those who really have an issue, with not only my prices, but prices that other artists may charge here in this community have finally woken up to find all of us naughty money hungry, vile, rude, snobbish, up themselves artists are actually holding you at gun point with finger on trigger FORCING you to buy art from us.

I guess the jig is up. lol

As I later said, I merely said I felt they were 'unreasonable'. I did not villify you or call you names, because.. as I have said twice in this thread of conversation: if the commissioners are willing to pay those prices, by definition of the term, the art is "worth" that.

From one artist to another:

As far as I'm concerned, If you can find people that are willing to pay that much then props to you!

I recently had an auction where for a single image (3 characters simple background) it ended up getting to around $600.. now.. auctioning is completely different then setting my prices. You're told exactly what your art is worth, but ONLY to the people bidding.

Whereas setting your daily prices is almost entirely based on demand. If you find your queue filling up quicker then you can swat a fly, it's time to raise your prices. Raise em as high as you like because if they keep coming, good for you! You're doin' something right!

I don't get upset when I see artists making a lot of money! Actors can make millions in a single film if they're demand is high enough. Singers can make HUGE bucks at a concert if they can fill the room.

People are upset that you make $X on a piece? People are upset that Jim Carry makes $X on one film?

They're jealous. Cold, cut and clear.

Am I jealous when I see artists make huge bucks on a regular basis? Heck yah, sure I am! I certainly wish my demand was that high at the moment!! Am I gonna call them a bitch/skank/jerk/douche/crazy/money-grubbing because they make it? Hell no! It's a positive jealousy. It's like, DAMN! Good on ya! You're a success and I am inspired in my jealousy to work harder and learn from your successes!!


There are a few artists that make big bucks and ARE douches/money-grubbing, BUT that doesn't effect their work XD (most of the time)

As far as I'm concerned, if people will pay you big bucks for your work.. why in GODS NAME would you charge small bucks?!

:P Now THAT would have me callin' you crazy ;P

huge comment aside, good for you! Keep it up! Give the furries what they want ;P <3 And take what they're willing to pay!

who this person? I have heard of this guy before??? and he does kind of sound like a rip off artist....

He's not a ripoff artist, because honestly, if people pay those prices, then.. well, it's the customers at fault. It Does irk me slightly that he claimed he stood up and shook hands with -everyone- that came to his table.. on my passes through the Artist Alley, I did receive a greeting, but only briefly with eye contact, as is fairly standard of artists. Why's he trying to puff himself up and make himself sound greater than he was?

I also kinda twitch at -any- artist that makes over $500 in a weekend in the Artist's Alley because that Alley was created for beginners, for amateurs that couldn't necessarily recoup their costs of a table. Furry dealer tables are ridiculously cheap compared to anime/sci-fi/comic/etc conventions, and transient vendor's licenses are not hard to get, especially for Pennsylvania - I know, I did it for a one time furry convention in eastern PA a couple years ago when I paid for and got a dealer's table. That's not necessarily specifically his 'crime' though, as I know there are a lot of artists that do it. I just wish fewer artists did that.

I hung out with him for an entire night with friends at AC and not once was he a "douche", he was actually a really great guy. Please don't make assumptions based on rumors

You hear im a douche in person? Well thats sad because you clearly have never met me in person (at AC for example) Where i was for the longest time the only artist standing up to receive and greet those coming to my table, hugging people, have laughs and even inviting random furs i had just met out to lunch and dinners (all payed for by me) just so that they could have a great time. You right im a real English douche. XP

Oh and FYI those who say that im probably a douche are those that have been denied art (either because morally not right to produce or just out right vile subject matter) and or were out right rude to begin with so make sure you know someone or at least make an effort to get to know someone for yourself before slandering them. ^^

This, pretty much this, it's easy to spout rumors about people you've never met in person and make someone look bad through 'word-of-mouth'. It's easy to do since a lot of them were never even there and as long as a LOT of people are saying the exact same thing than that thing they're talking about 'has' to be 'true' right? Or at least, that's the general 'danger' with this kind of stuff.
How many times didn't something like this happen? It happens in the industry all the time, there's a reason the bosses of big companies have doors that not even their secretary can enter during their abscense, there might be an angered co-worker that could install child-porn on the computer, call the police and have their 'personal justice'. (and yes, this happens.)

Case 'n point I'm trying to get at is: If you have the right to stand on a pedistal, other people will be all to eager to take you down. This is simply human nature at its finest, the inability to deal with other people's kindness and success.

comment for you. ^^

oh, wow. Color me wrong. You're right, I've never been to a con or met you in person. There was a discussion flying around on u18chan and that was one of the topics that got pretty heated before finally being removed.

Terribly sorry, that sure will teach me about spouting rumors!

wha? O_O

People always seem to complain about his prices. And I always find it hilarious.
And yet, he gets plenty of commissions. If people are willing to pay what he charges then I say all power to him.

Precisely. Do furries really expect for an artist to reject a higher price they know they can achieve?
I've had complaints before about how my auctions tend to skyrocket to bidding levels that surprise me, but why would I change anything? To me it means more gas in my car and doing my best on each piece.

more of these

now

Oh, I don't think it's too expensive. I just have no money to use to buy it!

Average Fur artist prices range from $30-100 depending on things. some are more, some less...

Average Professional Artist working for a company, or movie studio, range from $3-5000 for the same quality of work some furs do for $100.


Moral: Quit yer bitchin' and be thankful the artists who do the world charge as LITTLE as they do.

though you have to keep in mind that thoose professional artists do get paid that but oftentimes get kicked to the curb after their project is done. see that all the time in the gaming industry. artist in henetal dont get the respect they deserve regardless the industry or fandom they work for.

Keep in mind, that even genera? furry artist might feel like being kicked after commission. They like Pro's ending their job, get paid, and no one will be holding them, because it will be losing money on someone, who isn't neded ;) Pro's working in movie and game industry know that perfectly, and none of them are surprised, so searching for another projects after first is common.

I would say working for furries is no different. Just because fuzzyraptor (making up a name) commissioned you for a particular piece doesn't mean he is ever going to commission you again, for anything at all. That's the same thing the professionals get. Furry artists don't get respect either. I have friends that, like myself, do not draw adult artwork. We just won't. Do you know how much we have been hassled about it? I know another artist that yes, she got known for an adult comic she draws, but when she posted that she was getting tired of drawing the porn, and might be quitting any adult work, the mass response was torches and pitchforks. ... and we have people that want and expect us to work for less than minimum wage.

That and they're really not paid that much for a single piece either. A close friend of mine did a movie poster concept, 3 versions for Mel Brooks. Total price: $500. Piece rate work doesn't typically go near the 3k-5k mark so the comparison really is not a valid one unless you've hired an artist that intends to spend a minimum of 30 hours on the piece and basically produces it as fine art. These types also tend to produce furry quality art in roughly an hour or two so.. vast difference in general skill.

A 2d concept artist on a payroll basis starting out can expect around $24 an hour starting so the 3k-5k figure begins to make more sense as a monthly income when the artist is on salary and does not do merely 1 piece of work in that time. There is some very good stuff on this site but there's really not a lot of it that would qualify as "fine art" and is more closely related to concept art instead, some just more 'finished' versions of it. That's not at all intended as a bad thing but concept art tends to have a lower dollar value than fine art. More so when commercial rights are not included which is a large reason why those that work in the industry tend to be paid more than they are in the private sector. As is common saying I hear from other artists, commercial rights are too valuable to give up on commissioned works here. Problem is... there isn't really much reason for the common commissioner to purchase the commercial rights on a pic they're just going to hang up on their wall and/or post up in an online gallery.

But yeah as you've pointed out, professional artists are very often kicked to the curb until their next project so the income is still not steady unless you're really just THAT good or have a skill that's in high demand such as 3d rigging. Also, as well all know the VFX industry is getting outsourced to cheaper labor as well.

At the end of the day, an artist can charge as much as he/she wants to or as little. But like anything that involves consumerism there will be people that complain about the prices. I mean there are some people on this site that flat out expect commissions to be GIVEN to them for free...literally. But simply put, I decide what I'm willing to pay for art from someone and if I don't like their price I just go elsewhere. Some artists here really are overpriced for the quality you get and the time it takes them to deliver, some offer a pretty awesome bargain and further still some are priced fairly.

Meh lol evil typos still getting used to the touch screen on my new cellphone, last sentence was to read : Artists in general don't get the respect they deserve regardless the industry or fandom they work for.

Company pays $$$$ for product artwork.
Company makes $$$,$$$ selling product.
Company makes profit.
Company is driven to maximize profit margin, monetary investment is but one of many factors considered.

Comissioner pays $$$ for custom artwork.
Comissioner rarely makes $ selling artwork.
Comissioner spends money.
Comissioner is driven to spend the least amount possible, monetary investment is typically the primary concern.

This.... just this...

I have pieces ranging from 60 dollars to 250 dollars on my mantle at home... the difference in quality and detail is blatantly obvious if you compared any of them.

One piece is a simple colour work of my character, white background, 60 bucks, another is of my mate's and my character with a complex background 120 dollars, yet another is both characters and an extremely detailed background, foreground and characters... 250 dollars.

Artwork is NOT cheap and considering minimum wage is 7.5 an hour in most places, with some artists putting an AVERAGE of 12 hours into a piece that's at least 90 dollars... just in labor let alone supplies and other things. Art in this community is so undersold it's absurd... but when you factor in that most are in their early to late teens and don't necessarily have that kind of money to spend... then it's kinda understandable, but what I hate is when people bitch about how much it costs.

I'll admit I hate auctions and will not bother with them since most auctions of artists I watch have hit 5-700 dollars for a single piece with on character.(too rich for my blood), but I have no problem paying a few hundred from an artist I truly love.

I think that sums it up nicely.

This is exactly what I was thinking. Even in the comic world I was used to seeing some of the top named artists getting hundreds for a sketch or thousands for something a furry artist would get fifty to a couple hundred dollars for at the same skill level. And some artists idea of a sketch is far more detailed then what that term can mean to others.

A good chunk of that is because you are paying for the name. Imagine of a celebrity for example did some pretty crappy artwork. They would still probably EASILY make more than a talented furry artist simply because there is a big name attached to it. Whereas a big name in the furry world typically means nothing in the art community as a whole. Take Narse for example (he's a friend so I know he's not going to bite my head off for using him as an example :P ).. safe to say he's a pretty big name in this fandom yet... he doesn't really do commissions at all. Too busy with BD and he has some personal quips about his own artwork that stops him from doing it unless a closer friend really prods at him for it, even then he usually doesn't even charge. I'm fairly positive that if he opened up for a commission he could easily get a grand or more no problem.

Now take him and throw him in the ring with all of the other pro artists out there. His name means nothing compared to bigger names out there. He might get a low grade style project even with his portfolio but I strongly doubt he would be getting paid a grand or more for a single piece of artwork outside of the furry community. Name is a factor in how much an artist will get. For what Tojo charges I could get something of higher quality for the same if not less. People pay her rate because she is a popular name here and regardless of the quality, they will pay for it because it has her name and style attached to it. The sad part is artists of higher caliber tend to miss out on this simply because they do not have a popular name in the fandom.

My hat is off for you sir. For all of your comments in this thread providing a balanced view, calm non-inflamatory language and staying on point.

Thank you. :) I try to conduct my discussions in such a manner while not skirting around the truth via sugarcoating. An artist does not grow with false feedback and an artist that cannot handle negative feedback and criticism probably should consider another profession or keeping the art entirely private.

And again, they lose all the rights to what they create, have to inventory EVERYTHING, and tend to be forced to draw the exact same thing a dozen times over before the picture is completed, meaning they are made to put a lot more work into the same quality piece than freelance artists do.

And when it's done, if they're not fired, they're not even allowed under contract to draw the same thing for themselves for fun. This is made even worse if they created a new character on the job, as they're no longer allowed to use that character on their own accord or sell pictures of that character to fans. The ones who get to keep the rights are extremely rare and lucky.

Finally, it's also extremely extremely HARD to break into the industry, because there are very many competing artists and very few positions. In comparison, the furry fandom is almost guaranteed money, just not quite as much per hour.

more ideas? than do them! XD

i am rebuked :(

lmfao XD

I agree with this picture and lets think about this for a few moments.
You're a professional artist as far as my opinion goes: if you were a artist outside of any fandom with college training and all that. You'd be making thousands, lots of artists would.

.....my apologies? I feel like I should be apologizing.....

I do love being called a "ripoff"

Oh man, I didn't even think about it, but that face absolutely could be a meme! I have high hopes for this!

So much potential. :3

I've seen dozens of supernaturally amazing artists on this site that charge bargain basement almost nothing for commissions. this is the only place on the Internet where you can get a custom piece of art done by someone better than Lucian Freud for under 3 figures.

it makes my head spin

Naturally.

so true it hurts

Shut up and take my money!

HAY THAT'S MY LINE!

I like how your icon fits SOOOO well with this context XD

considering that's where the meme came from...
yeah, I guess it would. :U

Oops sorry.. <.<

Real friends -- and real fans -- pay full price. They buy deluxe editions. They buy copies for their friends. And they tack on coffee and art supply money. *Then* take you out for dinner.

So basically, you can't be a real friend and/or fan if you don't have money? :P
lol

Nonsense. That what money you have and can afford to spend, you put toward supporting your friends' businesses. Two of my friends own a brunch restaurant; I have brunch there when I can. Another friend is a landscaper; when I needed my yard designed, I went to him, asked for his 'stranger' full price rates, and paid half again above 'em. You can be a friend without paying a dime...but if you have a dime to spare, you don't tell a friend that s/he should sell to you for a nickel. You pay full price and tip high, because they *are* your friend.

Well said. I could not agree more!

This took the sting out of a lot of the more terrible comments. You are awesome.

Awww, thank you. *blush* It just seems so simple...the point of a friendship is mutual love and support. When applied to business transactions, of *course* you make sure your friend does well in the deal, and if you can't afford their work, you don't ask their prices to drop for your sake, but rather, you save up.

It blows my mind that people say "Well, I only have $X and not $Y" as an argument for an artist to drop prices. How did they accumulate $X in the first place? If one lives in such a way that surplus money accumulates at all, however slowly, then one can hold onto that money, and keep accumulating, and eventually have saved up $Y. It takes time, yes, but if one wants something badly enough, it's worth the wait.

I wonder sometimes what would happen if every single one of us who's grateful that there's an artist like Rukis in the world sent at least ten to twenty bucks -- more, obviously, if one can comfortably spare it -- and said simply "Because you're awesome. Nothing expected in return, just thanks." I think, next check, I ought to do just that. Care to join me and do the same?

With my friends I like to make sure we are both happy with an exchange and sometimes, mostly only for friends, I will offer up art that I would charge an equal value in exchange for services they can do. Bartering is a favorite of mine when I don't have money and when someone wants art that is usually out of their price range.

If I wasn't an in the red artist myself I'd definitely consider it. Been meaning to pick up a book or print from rukis in the future when finances are a bit more stable though :)

I wish I could agree with you on all of this, but sadly I've had a friend take advantage of my generosity and spend MORE time on it than anyone else, putting me constantly at the bottom of the list because "I would understand", and then finally cancelling the commission without a refund because he spent my money already on video games and said that I was "holding him back". But I guess that's more a story of MUTUAL support that wasn't aimed toward the commissioner, which I'm sure you'd agree is pretty awful.

That artist ripped you off, plain and simple. Took your money, produced nothing, and wouldn't give you either refund or product. That's rather outside the context of a healthy transaction, though, I'm sure you'd agree.

The difference being expectation. The original article here was about customers complaining that rates are too high. You're suggesting that there may be many reasonable ways to adequately compensate a friend for services rendered that all parties are comfortable with, and that said friend is perfectly entitled to insist on cutting you a break anyway. Sure...but all of those involve the artist being happy about the arrangement, not a coercive and unidirectional 'This is more than I want to pay. You should sell me X for $Y because $Y is what I'm willing to pay.' Any deal you and your friend work out, in which both parties are happy with the terms, is your business and no one else's.

I also don't have a problem with friends doing favors for, or giving gifts to, one another. But that's a favor, or a gift -- a little different than a standard business transaction.

Agreed here.

I have a friend who insists that he's going to give me free art for life. I still tip him now and then to encourage him to continue to improve and be a sweet person. On the other hand, I have another friend who isn't getting enough work and has gotten depressed, so I offered him 50% more than he normallly charges for a really good picture of a new character I created. That perked him right up, and I know he will make it the best picture ever. It's all about paying it forward. :)

Very well put, indeed.

T'was a joke, my fellow.

My better half has had to resort to officially putting a cap on my budget here -

These are great and this makes so much sense.

I do agree with this! :3 Though, on the flip side, when an artist you adore charges nearly three times what you make in two weeks... it's a little disheartening. D:

Naturally it will hurt, but people will not care, they spend what they want to spend and get what they crave for,
I Do applaud this very much so, I agree to this 110%

I don't really think that any artist who is making money CAN be charging too much. But I have heard that some artists only allow limited access to the art that the person who is requesting access commissioned. And THAT, I think, is evil. I don't understand it.

LOL XDDD

let's see how many more get made, shall we Ruk? XD

I think we've just found a new furry meme.
Please, do share your other ideas, if you have the time.

Oh man. I want to post this on my page so bad. I can empathize a little too well with this.

feel free, just link it back to me ;)

Oh! Thank you! :3

Brilliant! *passes you a Guinness*

Also tweeted the fuck out of this :)

http://www.furaffinity.net/view/6119295/

That view is flawed.

It's not that at all. it's that at minimum wage, I do not have the spare dollars to spend on the art that I love.

Sadly, art is a luxury, and if you're only making minimum wage, you have to understand that the artist needs to make at least that much as well to be a fair transaction.

I know how it has felt to want art badly and not be able to afford it, nothing wrong with that. But it's another thing for some people (not you, don't worry) to insist that they charge less just so they can have a deluxe piece when admittedly they're struggling financially.

And well I know it! This is why I do not even try to commission dear Rukis here, nor Mr. Bartrop nor Ms.Etuix nor Ms. Bruton nor Ms. Wyman. They are furiously high quality artists that deserve every penny they get. I would love to commission Mr. Wager to do his long forgotten Unicorn Paladin, but it's more important to pay the rent and the car insurance. (and pray nothing else goes wrong with it now) I am not one to even ask that they charge less, simply for the outstanding quality of their work. but this economy creates issues for both sides of the equation. An artist might think that s/he is no good because sales are down, might get depressed that their art is not moving. is it a fault of theirs? No. It's that a lot of fans are living on starvation wages when they would much prefer to have some mad money to buy a piece of art to hang on their walls. All I can do is comment on art, so at least the artists know someone is looking at their stuff. I know that does not help them pay their rent or car insurance, but with scant funds myself, it's all I can do.

Giving an artist deserved praise may not be money, but trust me, they appreciate it a lot. It's a good way to give a good impression in general, and eventually you may become good friends with a great artist who will happily collaborate with you on ideas and possibly charge less than usual. If you continue to encourage them from there, who knows? Maybe someday they will be one of the greats, and you'll be their best friend. :D

Point taken, and I will at least do that. Rukis here does Stunning work, wish she would do more straight pieces, but that's just my wish, vs all her commissioners....

There are no words to describe how perfectly this embodies the portion of the community with any common sense.....then again they are written on the pic itself.

Most artists I follow sell out their commission slots before I even see the announcement that they're open. If someone is selling out in less than an hour, they probably aren't asking for as much as they could get.

supply and demand people!

the more people request art from a person the more that person is gonna charger to keep queue from going crazy. cause lets say Baebunny started doing art for 10 bucks again for full color/shade etc with how good he is at his art, his inbox would litterally blow up.

So sure, it may seem unfair for an artist ya really like to charge so much money but they have worked up to it and they worked hard for it.

Ahaha, delightful!

Yaaay, now I can have a picture to link to the next time I get into an argument with someone on this site who believes that all commissions should be free or under twenty dollars, and any artist charging more is not worth their time/just being greedy.

I got asked to do a two person full character piece for someone. They said they didn't have a lot of money, and my heart went out to them. I normally charge $40 for that, $30 with no bg (I'm a hobby artist, unlike Rukis so I charge nickles and dimes), so I said I could be flexible with it. They wanted it for five dollars. And then they were upset and offended I said I couldn't possibly do it for so little because I'd be getting roughly a dollar an hour for that.

-_-

I got into one of these fights with a 'freeloader' because I purchased a ref sheet that was about $120. They were half making fun of me for buying a piece of art, and half angry that I was contributing to something that I 'should have gotten for free'. I really don't understand people sometimes >.>

Or the time that I made a journal stating I was thinking of doodling some of my characters (is totally not an artist and says so in my profile), and I suddenly got a ton of notes from watchers that had never said a single word to me in the past saying that I could draw their characters if I wanted to. I see this happen to commission artists a lot, people begging for freebies or getting an attitude because their piece of free art was not done fast enough or at the quality they had wanted. I guess the concept of 'you get what you pay for' is dead

The problem is that no one seems to realize how much time and work goes into drawing. It's not easy at all.

On the other hand, I've paid good money for commission work that hasn't been done for years. If artists want professional prices, they have to be PROFESSIONAL about their work, their customer relations, and being timely.

I didn't really take it as an insult. I don't think they were saying my art wasn't worth it, I really took it as them being entitled enough to think they deserve it for cheaper. Which was incredibly annpying regardless.

Even if they're like a best friend or mate, going as long as $20 (which is what I'm under the impression you were going to suggest) is extremely generous. Of course if this was just "someone" you know, it's probably best to just forget about them and their unreasonable offer. Hopefully they'll eventually learn.

It was a random person, stuff like that happens and it's not too bad. It's just annoying when someone asks, and then gets upset or accuses you of not caring just because you won't bend ass over backwards for someone you do not know.

As for people I do know...ugh. Honestly, that's worse. I do not want to say people close to me should know better than to ask for art, but it's honestly very upsetting to have people ask. I do not go up to them at work and ask them to give me clothes for free, or to let me eat for free. Most of the time those friends just "suggest." Like, any time they have a good idea they will be sure to point out they'd be okay with you drawing their character doing something. I've had real problems with friends I had doing that for awhile. I even had told them several times to stop. So that's the annoying thing. Random people are random people, and you can get over that quickly. When it's people you care about, that's when it's a lot more upsetting. Especially when you've told them to stop countless times, and explain why. I had a friend who was particularly bad about it for awhile, and in the end I would instantly stop talking to him the moment he mentioned anything about his character or my art.

And then there's RedRusker.

Lol, hateboner?

Is thinking his character designs are generic and boring, he overuses internal shots, and there's no reason commissions from him should go up to $400 when he opens up commission auctions considered hate?

While I do respect your right to not like his art style, it shouldn't make you say it's not worth money. Look at Picasso, I think it's awful but I'd never sit there and badmouth the art he made. Art is subjective. The people who are paying for it, which are not you so it shouldn't even bother you, are fine paying for the price. I don't think 5 star restaurants are a good use of money and are overpriced, but I do not go around badmouthing and complaining about them. I don't think people should do that to artists, either. Art in the real world sells for thousands of dollars for a premade piece that's often a print and not the original (before arguments about it being digital art come in). Less than half a grand for a custom piece is an extremely good deal. And it's not unreasonable, and he doesn't deserve hate merely for making the amount of money people are willing to pay him.

Again, I wasn't trying to imply hate. Just expressing one of my unpopular opinions.

I understand, but I feel namedropping just because you don't find something is worth it, is rather rude. Especially because it's really ignoring the fact that the money he makes is nothing compared to other artists outside the fandom. Opinions are one thing, but opinions disregarding facts and based soley on bias are silly to have.

I never said I was polite, either.

The big difference between the furry fandom and the professional industry is that furry art is almost guaranteed money, while it's very difficult to get into the industry, where you're then forced to work for hours on what a corporation wants you to make, and you lose the rights to your work as they then take what they had you draw and make GENEROUSLY ten times more than they paid you off of it.

That's not true, you're overlooking the self employed aspect of it, which I think is what Rukis is looking at. But besides that, furry art is NOT guaranteed money, even then. I have months where I sell 5-7 commissions. And months where I sell none. You have to compete with other artists' low prices, while also having to try to gain popularity - same as any other self employed artist. In fact, the furry fandom is less guaranteed money than in the outside world of art, because furry is such a narrow niche that finding the right balance is very hard to do. To live off it is even worse. How many furry artists do you know that solely live off commission work? I know about ten, and that's on a site full of thousands of artists. You can be extremely good and still not have the client base.

If you work for a company, that is guaranteed work. It's difficult to get in, but you'll always be working on a project. AND you'll be getting paid a lot more per hour than a freelance artist, especially if it's a fandom one. The business owners maky be making the big bucks, but you'll still be getting more working got a company than you would by yourself. As a freelance artist, you must seek the client base, put time and money into that, then try to find a good ToS and paysite, deal with difficult customers and scammers. People scam companies a lot less, because they have a legal team. And once you're done with one project, they give you another.

Hopefully if they don't lay you off once that project is done, but that entirely depends on the company you're working for.

I guess all I was trying to say is that it's extremely tough to get into the mainstream industry, and yet a lot of people seem to think they're automatically entitled to industry rates even when they're very unprofessional. Rukis is of course an exception and I personally think she earns every penny that comes in to her. :)

That being said, I do believe that every good and friendly artist deserves to be able to make a living off of their art, as long as they're putting in full time work and making good relations with their consumer base.

When I said "guaranteed money", I guess I meant relatively speaking compared to, say, the population of DeviantArt. No, not many will be able to make a big living off their art, but almost anyone can get commissions here on FA. But you're right, that doesn't mean they can live comfortably off of that, even if they do put in 40 hour work weeks, and that's really a shame.

I can see what you're saying, yes. I think it's harder to be a successful self employed artist than work for a company, however. I agree about it being hard to get into a mainstream industry, very very hard. But that's because it's mainstream, not just any job as an artist. Many self employed artists don't even claim it as a business and pay taxes on it or claim it as income, like small businesses in other areas have to do.

Unfortunately, what you believe should be, and what is, isn't so. I know plenty of very nice artists with good skills that struggle financially. Even Rukis here says she lives at a minimum. It would probably be easier, and more financially stable, for her to work for a company. And ah, yes. I think people on FA have a better time than DA, though I can't be sure, since I don't frequent there. My point was more that being self employed is a greater risk - financially, in every way - than finding and working for a company. Not just in art, but in other professions as well.

Criticize his style all you want, but what do auctions have to do with anything? That is ENTIRELY due to what people are willing to pay for his art. It's not like he sat down and declared that his auctions would go for hundreds of dollars. The buyers pushed it that high because there was someone willing to go higher.

You should tell them to do some difficult creative work for them, and then insist that it should be free or like $2 an hour or they're being greedy. If they insist that they can't even afford to eat with what you gave them, then point them toward a mirror. :D

Wow. I just posted something on one of Myenia's submissions that I'm going to share with you. I truly admire people like you who put their heart and soul into their work to have people say that you "charge too much". I'm not yet "financially independent" but when I do have my own money, I will spend it on hard workers like you and Myenia. So there's your spirit booster for the day! Haha

lol, very nice ^^
I can't help but feel like art is very expensive everywehere, but then again I understand the complexity and resources needed to make it (except I don't quite get how digital can be as expensive as, if not more than, non-digital since the only thing being used as materials is time and hand motions <w< but that's an entirely different topic I think) but honestly when I see "modern art" and think how much people buy that...stuff, it makes me feel a lot better about furry art prices X3
...sorry, kinda tired so hence why the above may not make much sense >w<

Think about how expensive the software is and how people go through computers every 5 years or so.... The cost adds up....sometimes more expensive than traditional supplies cost over a period of time. Digital is not always easier than traditional. That being said, traditional medias will always retain a one of a kind feel so long as digital allows for mass printing. A smart digital artist will limit editions of prints.

Oh...yeah, that makes sense =3
I'm going to go lay down now, I appreciate your informational replay ^w^

" ...since the only thing being used as materials is time and hand motions "

What, traditional artists use their feet now? Fascinating.

...what?

Exactly.

sorry, your reply confused me a bit. I'm not sure if you were trying to say something in retort as though I had meant that digital artists use their hands and traditionals don't, because that would be terribly silly. though it sounds like that's exactly what you meant, and that was rather baffling X3

I'm an artist... So this makes me very happy! if you don't like the prices, then don't buy the art. hahahah :3

you don't want that though. if people don't buy your art, you dont get money D:

lol thats funny :3

 jill0r shared with me this link about why handmade stuff is so expensive. It's a good read for anyone looking for answers to why artists set the prices they do.
http://whatthecraft.com/overpriced-.....dmade-pricing/

And yeah, I consider artwork a handmade thing.
Great image and message btw xD totally should start memes.

As I've found. You get what you pay for. And also. If it seems too good to be true it probably is. And the classic. Quick, cheap, good pick two. Works for all industries not just furry art.

On a side note this Luther pose is perfect.
I think we have struck Internet gold here.

yeah... no change nothing, its all porn and nothing coherent xd

Never commissioned art, so most of this just soars over my head. Artist problems I assume :P

Yes, $100 BILLION Dollars. *pinkyfingers*

DX No fair lol you don't do commissions so this is cheating!!!! CHEATER I SAY

Crank up the prices so supply can meet demand =P
I got the pockets for it.

I love you.


Please tell me you have a tumblr that you posted this on that I can reblog from. Cuz damn. <3

Since when is art not worth paying for!? xD

Also, THIS IS GORGEOUS.

More ideas, eh...?

...keep 'em coming >83

True. Because 95 out of 10 furries don't understand simple economics; if someone's willing to pay that much for it, it's worth it. If nobody is paying that much for it, it's not worth it. If the artist doesn't want to take less money in order to sell their art, it's not worth their time and effort. If those furries had their way and could fix pricing at whatever amount they wanted, there'd be a huge demand and a tiny supply.

Its a fundamental rule of economics: the value of a good or service equals how much somebody is willing to pay for it :P If you think something's overpriced, then don't buy it!

Art is a luxury, not a requirement for life kiddies.

While I agree with this statement as it applies to this topic, there are some who would say that without art, life isn't worth living.

To them I offer some awesome 80s hair metal. ^_^

Haha, this! For an artist, art is not a luxury...if I didn't have the drive to make artwork, my life would be pointless.

OH MY GOD YES! LOL

How many hours?
Seriously, I think most commission fees do not equate to minimum wage or any salary worth striving for.
Not that that's really bad, but it does point out that, for a luxury resource, you're getting quite the bargain. (not to mention most fees include things like administrative costs and taxes and whatnot)

Stop being poor, then.

I have so many more ideas for this. So many. I have 2 words for ya.

DO - IT

so damn true!

Hammer > Nail head

I have never got a commission that i thought i paid too much on...actually, i usually feel like i didnt pay enough for the quality of the artwork!

That's what tipping is for.

eyup, and i gladly tipped

I love it. Please for the love of creation do more~<3

No art is worth paying for.

So I guess all music, movies, video games, novels, and forms of creative expression should be free? Why not stop there? All blueprints and mechanical designs should be free! All research should be free! If you keep going, technically everything should be free and gladly provided to everyone else who shouldn't thank them even in the slightest for all the hard work they put into something custom designed for you.

Yes! Lets expand our knowledge of science through freedom of research and blueprints! Why not? Im all for that. Why arent you? Not that everything should be free means everyone can have use of them. What would you do with the blueprints of a nuclear weapon? Nothing, you have no resources to build one and hopefully no intent to. What is your point though?

My point is that it would be fantastic to live in a society where everything was free, but that's not reality. In reality we do need to pay for certain things, and that includes creative expression that we could not otherwise concoct on our own wits and creativity. I mean, how would you like it if everything single thing you did was taken and used by others and you didn't even receive a single thank you or any sort of aid for your trouble? Even the best people would get burnt out, and this is why communism doesn't work.

See this is why i only buy art that matches its quality with the cost
too many egotistical artist that think their shit doesn't stink and rake in the money by screwing over their commissioners.
and to top it all off, said artists are too blinded by arrogance to see their own corruption.
This is irony at its finest.

I agree you on this to an point of course. There are some who are quite egotistical, others who don't accept that the market is what it is, proven by when they've attempted to have prices closer to what a commercial artist will make... they tend to not get enough clients. Even the pro grade artists are losing out due to outsourcing that's now going on in the VFX industry.

Lol all I hear when this comes up is "This is the song that never ends... Yes it goes on and on my friend." <3

Yes this, and if you have more, a collage of them would be just spiffy, and id you have any others characters that have a pose and expression to fit the needs of other memes, please display those as well.
Permission to display?

sure thing!

It is finished Thankyou

I could post a comparison to 'real-world' graphic designer/artist wages but I won't.

What I will point out is that it's more closely related to what the artist is willing to do and what the seller is willing to pay. This boils down simply to market demand for an item.

IF you're a popular artist on FA, you are going to get a lot of people interested in commissioning you. The best way for the artist to thin out the crowd? Yep, you guessed it, raise prices.

So, let's put it this way. If you had to make a payment within 30 days of $1000, you would open for commissions. If you're a quick artist, you could go the route of $10 sketches but then you have to average more than 3 drawings a day to come close (and it's still difficult to get 100 transactions within that month regardless of popularity). And there's no room for personal improvement. I've seen so many good artists just stagnate because they're doing 100s of micro-sales and they don't have time to just draw.

What if you're good at drawing and people recognize you for that? Maybe raise your prices to $50 for a more complete piece. At that point, you only need 20 within that month which reduces the stress load and that's very attainable for a popular artist.

Now, say you're willing to do a very complicated piece (like a comic) but don't want to offer it to every tom, dick, and harry. Charge as much as you want. I've seen a comic page (singular) go for a couple thousand before. That was because the artist did not want to have everyone that watched her to order something that will take up her life. But someone was willing to buy it and she obviously thought it was worth it.

Moral of the story: Price your piece however you want. If it takes you a solid week of work, slap a price tag of a couple hundred on there to make it worth your time. If you're not getting the commissioners you want, yes you can lower it but I implore you to never go below minimum wage (yes calculate your time). Otherwise you're better off working at McDonalds where they can at least respect your time enough to pay you that much.

Didn't mean to write a novel here but I wanted to get my opinion out there.

What he said.

That is very true with many artists who do art for their livelihood...they just dont want the prices too low to where everything but the kitchen sink is commissioning them, causing extreme amounts of stress, but they dont want to overprice it to the point of almost nobody coming to them for something they would really want. Most of the better artists ive seen (beelow the tier of the people like W-N and a few others) are very well priced for the quality of their work, and sometimes i even feel like I underpaid for the quality of the artwork at times. But the final choice on pricing is always up to the artist. I will say the logic of when they need money they open is exactly the reason why they are able to cash in on commissioners wanting their arts :3

agreed. cut down on supply, demand will sky-rocket :)

well this is the best way to reply to that comment: http://cdn.meme.li/instances/300x300/32433283.jpg

You win all of my webs
You win all of my monies
You win...well...YOU JUST DO!

I wish I could favorite this 100 times without spamming your box. I'd do it so hard!

... Is ... Is this a thing? Do people actually complain about this?

You do realize you're talking about furries, right? They complain about free things, let alone things they have to pay some meager amount of money for.

Yeah, but Rukis' stuff? Look at the detail and obvious hard work she puts into these things!

DON'T CARE! WANT FOR FREE!!!

(That was parody, for the record)

Just so you know, it's not just furries that complain about free things. o.o Having worked at Amazon you would be surprised at the sheer number of people that would bitch about a free item or service we offer. Those were the types you really just wish you could hang up on and get on to the next customer with a REAL problem.

I <3 you.

The only gripe I have with this is that all the respect people give to those who can draw hardly ever share that respect with those who are talented in other forms of art, such as writing, music composition, or photography.
It saddens me.

THIS. So few people will even bother to look at a good story or listen to a really great piece of music, but they'll complain that they need art so badly, but not SO badly that they need to pay for it. ;)

What's more insulting is when you lower the prices and people automatically assume the quality is lowered as well.

nice you should defiantly make more

I charge to little... People that have commented on my prices have told me that it's over priced and i think they most expensive was $25... and to me, that's just telling my my art is worth nothing. Oh well, not like anyone ever wants to buy from me anyway. *shrugs*

In business you have to grow a thick skin honesty. There's always gonna be someone out there that will complain about pricing. People complain about free things even. There's some decent stuff in your gallery just do your thing and keep improving yourself. Also, network with people and really push to get your name out there. That's how you compete. Word of mouth is very powerful.

Yes, I do actually have more stuff though on a different account on DeviantArt, I am trying to make more stuff for this because it's for different things lol. I am also going to be working on a comic soon and that'll for sure help me improve! I guess you're right, I need to make a decent pricing sheet that won't make people mad who are worth my time.

Yup! And remember there's always gonna be people who are going to complain about even low prices. Just stick to what's right for you. Business can be a tough cookie to deal with that's for sure.

oh I know that for sure lol I had someone tell me that 35 points (which is 24 cents) was expensive and it still sold to someone more deserving of it lol XD When I see people's art and see commission prices I usually say something like "I love you're art and I wish I had more money" something like that lol so i don't really complain about their prices XD

Funny! Though I think the question should be "You think furry artists charge too little?"

100% signed!

The message is a very good one. I use to get the same thing when I was running a welding/fab shop. Then they would get pissy when I wanted payment before the work left the shop.

Lol, this is awesome!

Sooo Sooo true.

then they go play an indian artists that will not draw so well but he's paif 1/8, right?

… h-heeeeeeeey! *is part-indian*

didn't meant to offend you, my boss menaces me with "I'll contract someone from INDIA!! they are cheaper than you!" whenever he has a bad day and I thinkg that a big issue people that sell themselves cheaper, not just people from india, it's also chinese, etc etc etc because fucking people always think on "less money spent = more money for me" and people want to eat, so, instead of getting paid for $100 they get $10

No offense taken, I was joking anyway. Though my job does feel like one of those cheap outsourced ones.

It's normally worth the price, if it's from someone you want. If you can get a spot.

I honestly think this is kind of disrespectful. I think it's in bad taste to add fuel to the fire. I have no problem paying for and working with the artist, and have done so in the past, and am not going to condone the bitter behavior of others in the community over prices of artwork which, to be fair, is a luxury.

I don't like it when I read comments on submissions like this calling out artist A or B over something they did or are doing when their own control over their talent and what they utilize it for is exactly what people pay for. There's just so little respect.

All of this! XD
It's too true, i think a lot of the artists in the fur community are some of the most underpaid for their work and time, yet when an artist starts to charge a higher price for their talent, it's a gamble if people will still continue to commission them.

Best Meme ever.

I've found a brilliant way to deal with having insufficient disposable income to purchase art: I do without.

... Well, I did barter, once.

you sir or madame, are the smartest furry I have ever met. Pity so many others don't seem to understand this easy solution.

That pretty much sums it up. Pay what you can and even if the artist's quality is not worth what they are charging (from the commissioner's perspective obviously) then you simply do not commission them. I mean no big deal asking if the artist would take a bit less. Worst they will say is no but it's not really grounds to tear them a new one because they didn't give ya a discount which is where I'm sure some of the problem is as well. Just as there are artists with too much of a sense of self-entitlement there are also commissioners that have the same problem.

Cool it, Wonka.

Oh god.. must see moar!!

It actually works! Though I find the lower text a bit over-articulate. A shorter form might deliver the point more sharply.

Funny cos its true

ha ha ha XD, nice idea and picture

I DEMAND MOAR!!!!!

Ah, the furry commission paradox, nicely outlined by Luther. Sometimes it does take a military genius to put things into perspective.

Also, I need to borrow him for my job. "Yes, your repair will absolutely be covered under the warranty against manufacturer's defects. Clearly your dropping it 3 times including kicking it down the stairs shows how poorly manufactured it was..." I wish I were making that up...

(For the record, I have the opposite problem. Lots of money and a desire to hire an artist, but no takers...)

You pay for the name most of the time, not for the art itself.

Ironically, I read this tweet yesterday:

"Every time I see furry artists offering full-color, detailed commission work for $30 and under, I die a little inside."

My response was a sarcastic "Well I am very sorry!"

Some people are never satisfied! ;p

I also get really pissy with people who want something for nothing and those bastards who come out with all manner of self-important huffings when they are called out for re-posting a commercial work.

People are all interpreting this as a quality of art vs. money. If I'm not mistaken, I believe it's a jab at people who say, "I HAVE to get art from you, I love your work, but I think you're charging too much. Here's what I want ...... with a detailed background of ........ and etc.... and I'll give you $20. Thanks."

Basically people who want everything for nothing. It wasn't a jab at an artists talent. "have to have that's not worth paying for" means it's a requirement for the person wanting but they are too cheap to want to pay for it.

Also.... prices artists charge help regulate the workload of an artists in addition to doing commission slots. Imagine the queues if all the well known artists did all their great art for $20 a piece, no matter how intricate.... they'd be overwhelmed. The prices balance out between limiting the number of people who will pay to a reasonable number and the artist making making the most they can. Everyone has to make a living, I know I wouldn't work for free, I'd get a new job. Many great artists on here do art as their job to pay all the bills.

ood example: Fursuit builder who's suits run $2,500-$3,500 on average and sending them an e-mail saying, "OMG I HAVE to commission you for my fursuit, it'd look so awesome! I have 8 different colors, tattoos on the back and arms that I want sewn in, digi-grade, and follow-me eyes. From what I've seen though you charge too much, so I'll give you $500 for it, and I need it by next con at the latest! I can't wait to see it!!"

That kind of shit happens a lot too. Same exact thing.

Good*

couldnt have put this any better myself!

very cool :3

for the record Rukis, your work is absolutely fantastic and worth every penny.

I agree!!!

It's not the price that annoys me It's the demanding payment in full upfront. I've been screwed over by like 5 artists now. Lesson learned though and now I refuse to pay in full upfront which sucks because so many good artists are asking for payment in full now

This annoys me greatly, because some artists will just run around with the money they suddenly have, but haven't truly earned yet. And what happens if a commissioner asks for a refund for work an artist hasn't started yet after several months? Couple different things:

1. Artist has to convince to commissioner that they should still do the piece they were commissioned to do, so as not to go through with a refund. From here, the commissioner is probably not happy, and the artist is either rushed, thus decreasing the quality of work, or they keep on blowing it off, either of which is just more unhappiness all around.

2. They run out of money at some point and keep opening commission slots to get more money immediately, even going so far as to give streaming slots etc. to people so that their pieces are done on the same day as they paid. Meanwhile, the person who has been waiting months continues to get screwed over.

In either case, the commissioner is going to be unhappy, and if pushed to the side long enough, they will retaliate by slandering the artist's name, or possibly even take legal action if the transaction was large enough.

Because just as some artists have screwed you, commissioners screw us out too, running around with everything from sketches to full pieces they haven't paid for :U

Thats why ilike a half now half later system. That way nobody is screwing anybody. Ill even pay in full once ive seen a sketch. I just want to see SOMETHING before i go handing out my hard earned cash.

Yup. Any court will even tell you not to pay 100% up front on any sort of project work. Once they have your money they lose the incentive to finish it as people don't always follow through with threats of a lawsuit. Less likely in the furry art world, especially if it's adult work. Not even a studio will pay a freelancer 100% up front unless they've been well established with them in prior contracts. Both sides do need to protect themselves, absolutely. That's why the half now half later method works out for both sides since the risk is shared equally. Problem is even an artist I trusted in a 2nd transaction has dragged feet on my commission because the hours were underestimated who.. has admitted fault for it of course but still, waiting over a year now for a finished piece is not acceptable and the shading work is obviously less refined than in my previous commission with the artist as well. But I'll reserve final judgement when the work is actually done done.

My personal compromise is to pay in full, but only right before they start on the sketch. That way the commissioner sees something right away, and the artist gets paid before they start.

Like Keedot said, I've almost been screwed by several commissioners who didn't want to pay. So I require all payments up front. Unfortunately, what you said it true and I see just as many commissioners shorted and wronged. I'm an artist but I also commission a fair deal of art. What I can say is a good tool, is see how long it takes them to complete commissions, maybe ask some customers of theirs, check artist_beware livejournals, try to see what people are saying about them.

And if it still fails and you get an awful artist, try a paypal dispute. I commissioned someone for five icons once (for friends and myself). Two months later, after they said it'd take a week and they were going to show me preview sketches, I'd heard nothing. I sent them several notes on DA and FA, and a few had been read and not replied to. I saw they were still active on DA. I was sadly over the 45 day timespan to dispute, but I sent paypal an email explaining my circumstances and they gave me a full refund. Shortly after, the artist contacted me and asked why I'd done such a thing, and said me making paypal refund me had caused an overdraft fee to their bank. What a strange coincidence, they only found time to talk to a paying customer hours after a refund, when they had not contacted me at all despite several overdue promised due dates the past month! So yes, there are lots of horror stories with paypal, but it never hurts to try even after the allotted time.

Those are some helpful tips thanks :)

You're welcome! I hope they help you out!

Thanks for this information. Really wish I knew about that option with paypal after I found out I was one of MANY people screwed over by an artist and after much rallying, we got our money back a year later. (And I heard it was the artist's friend irl that paid everyone back cause the artist didn't have our money anymore.)

I'm glad I can help! As an artist and a commissioner, and as a person, I really hate to see people get screwed out of money. Those who do it seem to forget there are real people on the other end who pay for such awful things. It makes me sick when people take advantage of others, all because they can or are selfish. Both sides need to be able to trust each other in this community, and it really hurts everyone when people end up ripping other people off or stealing from them.

I'm glad to hear you and everyone else got their money back, but I'm still sorry you had such an awful experience with it :(

What I would want to do if I ever commissioned you is to pay you up front, but only on the same day that you can produce the first rough sketch. That way you get paid up front, and I would get something to look at before the day is done. Win-win.

That makes sense to me, but unfortunately I generally do not do that. I generally get sketches to people 2-7 days after initial payment. If a commissioner was mine seemed that wary, I'd actually be wary that they planned to scam me as well. I'd probably research the commissioner first, before agreeing to something like that.

Not sure how someone could scam you by paying on the same day you start, but I'm glad to know that you're pretty quick, so you'd be a very easy exception to make!

Sadly I've been gipped by so many artists that I pretty much only commission friends these days unless I get a lot of reassurance of receiving a finished product quickly. And even my friends tend to delay pictures drastically for every excuse you could imagine, and not serious ones. One person told me that they're simply uninspired and don't know what to do with my idea (even though I gave them both clear ideas and gave them enough freedom to not suffocate them), and the other said they had an art block (really, for five months? Even with doing other commissions?).

And those are typically best case scenarios. I've waited years to not get anything. In total I've lost about $450 to untrustworthy artists.

I saw it as you'd pay after they gave you the sketch the first day, or would request the money back if they didn't supply it by the end of the day. Which isn't scamming someone, but I'd be wary if the person commissioning me didn't trust me enough that they'd completely lose faith in me if they had to wait even one day to see I was working on it. Especially since most people open slots of 3-10 so sketching every single one out on the day they get it isn't really possible.

And that really sucks dude, I'm sorry :( I can't even imagine losing that much money. Was there no way to get it back? Hit me up with a note, I'll make a chibi for you or something if you'd like. It won't make up for all the shit you got from awful artists, but my heart goes out to you for it.

Ahh, no, what I meant is that they'd open up a sketch stream and you'd PayPal them, and then get to watch them draw the sketch right away. I tend to feel that's one of the best ways to go about commissions, but then again this is what I politely request from my artist friends, and they always deliver on that. :)

You're very sweet to offer me something like that! :D I'll definitely check out your gallery and let you know what my favorite stuff is. <3

Ah, I see :)

And you're welcome! It probably won't be done super fast though x3

Hey, if it's free then take as long as you want. Hell, take ten years. XD

I feel that no one has the right to complain whatsoever about free art. Sadly, some of the people here that complain about artist prices also complain about getting stuff for free. :/

Artists get screwed over too, believe me; I've sunk a lot of time into custom jewelery commissions, only to have the commissioner have a fit of buyer's remorse and leave me holding a bag full of wasted effort and valuable resources; it's worse for illustrators, because auctioning off a portrayal of somebody else's character is an awfully hard and legally questionable sell.

There are ways to handle it without demanding full payment up front. Would you be willing to pay a material and commissioning fee up front, and/or sign a legally binding contract in hard copy? The latter is probably the best option (albeit the most complicated PITA), since it ensures compliance on behalf of both parties. Probably not worth going to the trouble on small commissions, though.

Bloody brilliant, :3

I saw this in my inbox, and I knew right off it was going to have ALL of the favorites.

On the same page, I think Amon totally makes a Futurama Fry face ("not sure if X or just Y" style)

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/futur.....-not-sure-if-x

Furries have access to basically the cheapest market for custom commissioned artwork. It's seriously mind-boggling how awesome it is (from a buyer's perspective)...and even more mind-boggling how badly entitled so many furries act about it.

"Oh my gawd, that's 30% of what it would cost in any other market. How can you sleep at night charging that much!"

Etc, etc, etc.

I don't have a problem with what anyone charges as long as they are not being lazy and doing YCH commisions.

YCH = Failure.

YCH commissions are for people who have no imaginations. The kind of person who gives an insanely detailed description of their character, then when you ask "So what do you want them to be doing?" they say "uh, whatever." Then usually complain later about how the pose isn't what they wanted. This happens.

So YCH gives people the opportunity to see a prelim sketch and make an informed decision before they pay whether or not it's a pose or subject matter they desire. It becomes very much a 'vote with your money' scenario.

That said, an artist shouldn't rely solely on YCH. The good artists will provide some variety in commissions.

Untrue. 90% of the time, commissioners give me characters and give me free reign. I ask for a pose and they say "whatever you think would look good." And sometimes they aren't pleased with the sketch, so then I end up redoing art and cutting into time for other works because they weren't specific and expected me to read minds. I've had similar things happen when I commission people, because I also often have a bad habit of thinking the artist will do what I imagine in my head. Having a premade sketch offers people a chance to see a pose they may not have thought of before, or one they really would like. That way you know what you're buying ahead of time.

I understand what you're saying, some prices for YCH auctions are a LOT higher than what the artist normally charges, and it almost seems unfair that you can't even get a spot if that's all they open. However, you have to remember a lot of artists use this as income or supplementary income, so getting a higher amount of payment for their work helps them as well. They're still doing the exact same amount of work that they'd do if they didn't presketch it. After all, they made the sketch anyway, they're just doing it before the accepted sale.

How are YCHs lazy? They're for people who can't come up with something, see a pose they like, and realize they want that.

It takes just as much work on the artist's part, it's just sketched ahead of time. Clearly you don't know shit about art. Whether someone has seen the sketch before or asks you to come up with one doesn't matter. The process to work on it is still the same. Idiot.

And what exactly is wrong with ych commissions? There are a lot out there that have trouble coming up with creative poses by themselves. And frankly I'm grateful for artists who do YCH commissions and even the ones who do adoptables as well. The only adoptables I usually wont consider buying are when they are only recolored versions of mass produced drawings, unless the artist is in need of money ect..

I've gotten tired of the YCH spam lately. Artists find it as a good way to make money as furries are willing to shell out hundreds. By all means go for it but don't do a YCH every single day...Give it a break really.

I only dislike it if YCH is ALL the artist does anymore. Since I have a ton of very specific ideas for my characters, I wouldn't feel right plopping them into any predetermined scenario.

I think furry art is very cheap in compare to any other commercial art, or from other artist who commercially might draw on same quality.

I'm normally do one full col detail character on detail background for around 80-100$ , but I clearly see that prices here are various, mostly even from 100-150$ for same, but in toony style, which is much less time consuming and easier to do. It isin't secret that kind of art consuming sometimes easy more than 12-16h. I'm trying to draw in style what my commissioner want, and trying to draw everything.

In normal commercial market, or in studio, people pay for 'art' (various -concept, ilustraition etc) mostly starting from time, where price per hour is between 15-25$. Now we can easy count for example how 20h project might cost when we multiply x20$ = 400$. And it might be only beggining, because price to be fair, also must inlcude pc/mac energy, paying for health and taxes, often also for other employers. Thats why 600$ to 1200$ for digital illustration on for example similliar level what Rukis have Luther on this 'meme' - it's preatty general and common.
I observed many top traditional (it was always the most expensive) artists (and not only) prices, in not furry community. They do detail sketches for 800$ ;) They have price for one full illustration mostly between 2,5K to 6,5K$. Artist who do commercial art can focus on what they do the best. There is also much other things.

So yeah, furry art is cheap :) People should think twice before complaining, because someone want to earn 30-50$ for his/her 10h of work, when art is looking really nice and deserve for better paying =.="

But it's very very difficult to get into the professional industry, even if you're extremely talented, and even then you're being forced to draw stuff for a corporation that will take the rights to what you created and make even more money than they paid off of it, so a comparison to a professional industry and the furry fandom (where anyone can make money) isn't really fair.

That being said, everyone deserves at least minimum wage for their work, so I'm happy to pay $100 for a really nicely made piece.

I know, you need to have top skill, and a bit of luck to get in pro industry. However forcing to draw something for example (i'm talking for myself) what I even can't to draw, it never was a big problem for me (I can't draw cats, but when it comes commissions I do them xD).
In my last job, I was manager and web admin with few other multi-job in same position, I created everything for my last employer, was artist designer, photographer and camera man and others, hovever they pay shit, so I also have rights to photos what I've done to them (of course they use them for what ever they want - commercial and advertisement also - and I have nothing from that).
Personally I don't see any problem to work for someone when he give me satisfy cash, and it comes to gives him/her rights to 'my work'.

In actual days plenty of people hire artist to work for them. Mostly those people don't have any kind of knowledge how to visualise their visions, but final product in galleries often have only surname of that 'employer'. Also that 'job' isn't for $100, often 1 month of working have at least medium country sallary. If someone feels to be forced on such rules, then he/she might always look for better job for his/her.
In these country, pleeeenty of people work in job, who they don't like or hate, because that shit job, it's often only job what they've got. I also was in such position, in diffrence that my shit payed job turns to hell, when my bosses takes all great things, what gives me energy and motiviation for working for them, even for 'funny' money.

In last - I think same, really nice made piece deserve for $100 or much higher if it have quality for that :)

Oh, absolutely. Most artists still undercharge themselves SEVERELY and I'm okay with trends where art prices increase, no argument there. I just don't like hearing about "industry rates" because the industry will SUCK OUT YOUR SOUL, and is that really worth the money?

Yup. For me, that industry will cuck out someone soul is preatty general thing, because I simply think any kind of job what you can do, can suck out your soul, if it isn't done properly - and I mean that anyone who is working in any kind of job need to in some case change himself and fits into standards for rhose who he/she is working. Corporations, industry, or even private investors can suck in many ways and be only machines for earning money. When you work in such job hard, you also should to know, that you are 'noone', and they might replace you with anyone other with similliar skills, if they will be wanted. I worked in such thing, I don't have any problem to work in such thing, I know it's commonly suck your half private time, however, I need good paying to by personal stability. If someone don't feel strong enough to work on such rules, he shouldn't work in such job (or work for to long), because it will suck out his/her soul :)

And of course some of them will undercharge themselv. I will copy what I said here in some other comment:
"In final it's always all up to the artist who make art and for what price they want to sell them. One thing about we don't write here is a place where artist live (country). These diffrent can market prices. For someone who live in Germany/USA, earning $50-100 from commishion 'it's begging' and small amount of cash, but for someone who live in my country or in other east countries - it's worth at least 3 times more, looking on actual earnings compare to west countries ;) These it's terryfing, because Pro from USA will be happy from earnings, but Pro who live in Czech Republic, will be live in well... in 'luxury' for same cash what will get a guy from USA ;) "

YES! Moar condescending Luther! Its what some of us positively love about him!

I'd rather not pay 10 dollars for a picture that's not atleast good quality. C: