Talk:Mech

Uses of the word "mech"

Hrm. We may have to disambig this. Transformers call each other "mechs" (in lieu of "men") in Timelines text stories all the time. --ItsWalky 14:00, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

Yeah, when I wrote this, I knew it would open this can of worms. There are different ways of dealing with it...

1. This page could become a straight-up examination of the various uses of the word "mech," including the current info.
2. This page could keep its current focus, with the "slang" use of "mech" being relegated to a Note.
3. We make a new page for slang-"mech" and disambiguate the two.

I think it all comes down to how prevalent the non-Crossovers usage is and how much there is to say about it. I don't have a particular opinion. I considered naming this page "Battle suit" to dodge the issue, but I don't think that's right because the Darth Star packaging doesn't use that phrase. Oh, and speaking of, if anyone can verify that other SW-TF toys use the term "mech," then that section should definitely be rewritten accordingly. I limited it to the Darth Star because that's the only SW-TF toy I own. Also, I don't know if the disambig-note should be expanded to mention SW-TF... I wrote it under the logic that SW-TF has been retroactively encompassed by Crossovers, but others may feel differently. Again, I don't particularly care.

- Jackpot 14:28, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

Started hunting around HTS for other uses of "mech," and I've found one so far: [1] Most of them focus on the pilot figure AWESOMELY MORPHING INTO A GIANT KILLER THING somehow. --ItsWalky 14:31, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

"two galactically great battle modes "? Oy. --FFN 15:19, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

Oh, and the mech in "Robot Buster!" is only called a battlesuit. Dang. --ItsWalky 14:48, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

I looked up all the SW-TF entries on TFU.info, and "mech" shows up in a couple of bios. Between them, the HTS.com thing you found, and the Darth Star packaging, I'm feeling pretty comfortable saying that all SW-TFs can be called mechs. Certainly I haven't seen any better terms from that franchise. - Jackpot 16:15, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

I'd vote for the slang usage simply getting a note. While "mech" and "femme" are common fanon terms, I don't recall either of them getting very much use in canon stuff. And seeing as how the Timelines stuff is, AFAIK, essentially written by paid die-hard TF fans (and thus it's not surprising that fan slang is adopted)... yeah. --Jeysie 14:55, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

I... don't think Timelines' usage of "mech" is gender-based at all. It's just makes a good swap-in to make human-based idioms sound okay for robots. --ItsWalky 16:40, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

Uh... yeah. What Walky said. "Gender" has no bearing on its use. --M Sipher 18:21, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

Er, point? Even if "mech" is used in Timelines in a gender-neutral fashion, it's still a term that, when used in the sense of referring to TFs at all, is a term that AFAIK sees much, much more fanon use than canon use (if it even gets any canon use at all outside of Timelines), and thus IMHO isn't worth a full write-up.

Just simply appended that with the sentiment, "For the sake of being thorough, this other related term has the same status in case that issue ever also comes up. Especially since in fanon usage 'mech' generally is gender-based."

(Sheesh, talk about making what was supposed to be a simple comment way more complicated than it should have been...) --Jeysie 18:44, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

So you're recommending we curtail Female Starscream because that's a fanon idea? --ItsWalky 19:16, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

...? How is a character that showed up in an official series a fanon idea? For that matter, what does that have to do with my opinion that "mech" is AFAIK mainly a fanon term and thus doesn't rate much of a write-up?

(I had thought that would be a simple, easy-to-understand point, but apparently not, considering that we seem to be on two completely different trains of thought here.) --Jeysie 19:30, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

For those unaware: "Mechs and femmes" as substitute for "men and women" has been a near-ubiquitous component of fanfic writing for years now, without any canonical basis at all. It is so common that I suspect that many people who use it are unaware that it was actually a fanon convention and not a standard part of "how Transformers talk" in canon. Jeysie seems to suggesting that the article address this in some fashion. --KilMichaelMcC 19:47, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

Their point is that fanon-ness has nothing to do with how we ought to treat subjects. If it seems like they're making a mountain out of a molehill, it's because they're trying to nip a bad standard in the bud. Ideally, we give each subject as much consideration as the official material merits, no more, no less. Like Seeker, Female Starscream, and any other idea that the fans used before the creators did, it should be judged on the same standards as everything else. Being used by fans first isn't a cause for degraded status.

That having been said, I also am leaning towards the "Note" solution, just because there isn't that much to say about the "slang" usage. But that's the ONLY reason. Edit: And I've added the note. I think it covers all the bases.

- Jackpot 19:48, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

KilMichaelMcC: Kinda, though I was more just using it as a reasoning why it shouldn't be given a lot of writeup.

Jackpot: How so? While we do cover some fanon concepts, as far as I knew we were mainly focused on canon. But if there are more canon usages of the term, then I was mistaken and it should get its own article/section.

It's not a matter of "used by fans first" being a problem, so I'm sorry if that's what you and Walky thought I meant. Rather, it's a matter of, "As far as I know this term is currently pretty much only used by fans". --Jeysie 20:08, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

Timelines stories are official. They're canon. They "count" as much as anything. If they use the term "mech" to mean "robot of nonspecific gender," then that's an official usage that deserves inclusion. If they used "mech" in a particularly important way that bore a significant amount of attention, then we would give it an article, no question. Neither Greg and Trent's pedigree nor the nature of the stories' distribution affect that. - Jackpot 20:15, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

...sigh, I can't think of any way to phrase this that doesn't either come off as unintentionally insulting or making things even more stupidly complicated, so I'll just say that the term is still 98% fanon-usage-only, and therefore IMHO giving it a lot of attention for the moment would be both unnecessary and misleading, and leave it at that. (Since, as KilMichael pointed out, the term started out as a solely fanon convention, and the only canon example being put forth so far is, well, written by fans for a fanclub.) --Jeysie 20:38, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

Derrick Wyatt is a die-hard Transformers fan. Again, I say we ditch Female Starscream, because she only appeared in one episode, while there are buttloads of female Starscreams that have appeared in fanfiction over the course of decades. Female Starscreams are still 98% fanon-usage only, and started out as a solely fanon convention. --ItsWalky 20:42, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

Yeah, you're completely missing my intended point (and arguing against a point I'm not making), and I can't think of any simpler way to put it, so I give up. --Jeysie 20:55, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

Not that it really contributes anything to the discussion, and I'm certainly not digging my issues out to check, but weren't the Dreamwave Micromasters all, like, "My mech!" and junk? Like "dawg" or "bro" or whatevs. - Chris McFeely 21:03, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

That would satisfy my quibbles, at least, if that were the case. *shrug* --Jeysie 21:18, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

I got into the second issue on a speed-read before finding a usage of the term, but, yeah, it's in there. (I have no idea how Adam Patyk and Brad Mick are any less die-hard fans than the Fan Club dudes, if that's what satisfies the quibbles. Adam Patyk was in the online fandom for like a full decade before Dreamwave even existed.) --ItsWalky 21:23, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

I had gotten the impression that most of the Dreamwave folks, at least, worked on other pro stuff besides/before Transformers. (Kind of like how Wyatt was an already-established industry pro before doing Animated.) Not to mention there's still a difference between doing stuff intended for "mainstream" release and doing stuff that's by fans for a fanclub.

(But then, I tend to view the fanclub stuff as essentially official fanzines, so... yeah, I eventually realized that I was never going to get my point across in a way that wouldn't get me lynched for being percieved as being unintentionally insulting.) --Jeysie 21:41, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

FunPub stuff still gets cleared by Hasbro legal, and thus by our (admittedly fairly binary) policy on canon is neither "more" nor "less" canon than "mainstream" releases. It's simply canon. Everything that gets the Hasbro stamp of approval is.--Rosicrucian^Talk 21:45, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

Yeah, I know... just trying to explain why, even though it's technically canon, I still had the frame of thought on the matter I did.

Ironically I don't even give a crap on this particular issue. I was just stating my vote, to go with whatever other votes other people ended up having. If I'd known a statement I thought was pretty simple/straightforward was going to be such an unexpected can of worms/way more complicated than it needed to be, I wouldn't have bothered. Sigh. --Jeysie 21:49, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

Toys?

I like the idea of this article, but I don't believe it needs a toy section. The only toys that are "mechs" appear to be Crossovers I don't see the point of listing all the Marvel Crossover toys with when we already have a page for that. The focus of the page doesn't seem to expand any further than the Crossovers (Marvel and a bit of SW). Maybe just put a link to the toyline page instead? That way this page can be a focus on the fiction aspect of mechs. We could possibly look for other uses of the term. (I wonder if the big Iron Man suit in the TF/A crossover was ever called a mech).

Or we could just have this page be all-encompassing throughout all continuities the way we have some other terms.

Now I'm rambling. --Bluestreak7 14:13, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

You're right that this page is primarily fiction-based. I just threw the Toys section in for good measure. I'm not generally concerned about toys, so I'll let someone who's more familiar with our protocol decide what to do with it. Edit: Oh, in answer to your Iron Man question, I just skimmed the miniseries, and the narration called it a "suit of armor." In dialogue, it was either a "suit" or "armor." No use of "mech" that I could find. - Jackpot 14:28, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

In this case, I'd say a series of section sub-headers and "Main Article:" links would suffice, since in both cases we're talking about an entire toy subline. (it does raise the issue of whether Star Wars should have its own toyline page... probably overkill, given the lack of fiction beyond packaging bios.)-- Repowers 18:12, 17 April 2009 (EDT)

The Cobybot is a mech by definition. ZeldaTheSwordsman 19:53, 23 June 2010 (EDT)