Requests for new languages/Wikisource Sorbian

Sorbian Wikisource

submitted	verification	final decision

	This language has been verified as eligible. The language is eligible for a project, which means that the subdomain can be created once there is an active community and a localized interface, as described in the language proposal policy. You can discuss the creation of this language project on this page. Once the criteria are met, the language committee can proceed with the approval and will verify the test project content with a reliable neutral source, such as a professor or expert. If you think the criteria are met, but the project is still waiting for approval, feel free to notify the committee and ask them to consider its approval. A committee member provided the following comment: Community should decide which language should be the default for localization. --Millosh 04:16, 13 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The community needs to develop an active test project; it must remain active until approval (automated statistics). It is generally considered active if the analysis lists at least three active, not-grayed-out editors listed in the sections for the previous few months.
The community needs to complete required MediaWiki interface translations in that language (about localization, translatewiki, check completion).
The community needs to discuss and complete the settings table below:

What	Value	Example / Explanation

Proposal
Language code	hsb (SIL, Glottolog)	A valid ISO 639-1 or 639-3 language code, like "fr", "de", "nso", ...
Language name	Sorbian	Language name in English
Language name	serbšćina	Language name in your language. This will appear in the language list on Special:Preferences, in the interwiki sidebar on other wikis, ...
Language Wikidata item	Q25442 - item has currently the following values: English label: Sorbian native label (P1705): Serbšćina, Zerpždźina, Serbski instance of (P31)/subclass of (P279): Lechitic, indigenous language / Lechitic Wikimedia language code (P424): wen writing system (P282): Latin script number of speakers, writers, or signers (P1098): 60,000	Item about the language at Wikidata. It would normally include the Wikimedia language code, name of the language, etc. Please complete at Wikidata if needed.
Directionality	LTR	Is the language written from left to right (LTR) or from right to left (RTL)?
Links	The first (Upper-) Sorbian bible translation from 1728 – a possible long term project	Links to previous requests, or references to external websites or documents.
Site URL	hsb.wikisource.org	langcode.wikiproject.org

Settings
Project name		"Wikisource" in your language
Project namespace		usually the same as the project name
Project talk namespace		"Wikisource talk" (the discussion namespace of the project namespace)
Enable uploads	no	Default is "no". Preferably, files should be uploaded to Commons. If you want, you can enable local file uploading, either by any user ("yes") or by administrators only ("admin"). Notes: (1) This setting can be changed afterwards. The setting can only be "yes" or "admin" at approval if the test creates an Exemption Doctrine Policy (EDP) first. (2) Files on Commons can be used on all Wikis. (3) Uploading fair-use images is not allowed on Commons (more info). (4) Localisation to your language may be insufficient on Commons.
Optional settings
Project logo		This needs to be an SVG image (instructions for logo creation).
Default project timezone	Continent/City	"Continent/City", e.g. "Europe/Brussels" or "America/Mexico City" (see list of valid timezones)
Additional namespaces		For example, a Wikisource would need "Page", "Page talk", "Index", "Index talk", "Author", "Author talk".
Additional settings		Anything else that should be set
Once settings are finalized, a committee member will submit a Phabricator task requesting creation of the wiki. (This will include everything automatically, except the additional namespaces/settings.) After the task is created, it should be linked to in a comment under "final decision" above.

Proposal

The Sorbian Languages (historical also known as Wendish) are a small language family within the West Slavic languages. They were (and in a smaller number still are) spoken in Lusatia (Eastern part of Germany, south of Berlin) and some locations worldwide, including several places around w:Serbin, Texas and several villages in the Southeastern part of Australia.

Although written Sorbian texts before 1800 are pretty much rare, the national renaissance in the late 19th century brought a large number of scientific, historic and theological texts as well as belles lettres. That period lasted until the 1930s, when it was nearly terminated. (After WWII there was a second rebirth, but next to none of that texts are within the public domain.)

At a real-life meeting a group of Lusatian based Wikipedians (with and without Sorbian roots) came to the conclusion, that there's a need for a Sorbian wikisource. Not only as a place for sources but also as a place for Sorbian texts in general. There's already a start at Oldwikisource, but that's for Upper Sorbian only, where our intention is to include both standard languges and every Sorbian dialect. As some of us are already familiar with the German wikisource, our aim is to follow that project quality wise.

We propose the language code wen (for the whole language family) as the project code, and the language codes dsb and hsb (Lower and Upper Sorbian) as redirects, so that [[s:<target>]] works on any Sorbian Wikimedia project (dsb.wikipedia, hsb.wikipedia and hsb.wiktionary so far). The MediaWiki interface has been localised for dsb and hsb as well as de, pl, cs and en, which should include the native languages of more than 99 % of all potential users of that project. --32X 19:09, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Arguments in favour

I agree with the overview compiled by 32X and I do support the idea. And as I try to learn the upper-sorbian language, I know how hard is to find sorbian texts on the Internet. Therefore I would like to pinpoint the fact, that sorbian wikisource would be of great help and joy to the people who are trying to learn and/or use the language but who are not in the regular real-life contact with the Sorbian real-life communities. --Tchoř 21:35, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It would be useful for both the Lusatian Wikimedia-Community and the Sorbs as much as for interested people from other regions (like Tchoř is). There are for sure enough texts that could be included and I see no argument against the installation. -- j.budissin 15:48, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There should be enougth resources for the Sorbian Wikisource. --Mike Krüger 15:39, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Many sources and authors, some texts are at wikisource. --Dezidor 09:33, 6 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support, per above--Andrijko Z. 20:53, 8 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Upper and Lower Sorbian are two modern literary languages. We are talking here about a project about old texts. These old texts mostly are just "Sorbian". In former times, there were a "katholic written Sorbian language" (czech letters) and a "protestant written Sorbian language" (german letters) (as long as they did not use latin or german for the written language). People also wrote in dialects somewhere between the upper and the lower Sorbian language. You are just not able to organize these old texts into two modern languages, both very close related to the original old text we'd like to host.
On the other hand there are many transitional dialects (de:Sorbische_Grenzdialekte), very close related to Upper AND Lower Sorbian.
There is a very big overlap of the people working in the Uppersorbian and the Lowersorbian project(s), why split it? Why not just using categories to mark texts in Upper Sorbian, Lower Sorbian, Muskauer dialect, eastern, middle and western transitional dialect (if possible)? Someone knowing Upper Sorbian is able to read lower Sorbian, vice versa. Together (as in wen.ws) they are able to build a strong(er) community to grant a "united" wikisource. Split up, both are weaker than they should be. Using hsb, dsb would suffer unnecessarily. --Anika (talk) 08:19, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support Everything already mentioned above. --V0lkanic (talk) 19:34, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Arguments against

The language policy only allows for individual languages. There are hsb and dsb projects. Both languages have a complete or almost complete localisation, so it is only a matter of deciding what project has sufficient community to grant a wikisource. GerardM 11:03, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- As far as I remember the creation of nds.Wikisource was rejected, because it should be part of de.Wikisource. --32X 21:49, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - It because nds is a dialect of de. This is not that case, right?--Leinbach (talk) 17:53, 2 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- see my comment above ([1]) --Anika (talk) 08:20, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose per GerardM. No comment, just wondering. Sorry.--Leinbach (talk) 17:53, 2 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Other discussion

A "wen" project would be good. I would like to see more written about the old Sorbian literature at de:Obersorbische Sprache and de:Niedersorbische Sprache, and maybe also create a w:Sorbian literature English article. John Vandenberg 07:44, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I also think a single "wen" Wikisource would be a good idea. The two Sorbian languages are close enough to warrant keeping their literature together in a single project. However, it's not true that Multilingual Wikisource only has Upper Sorbian. There is also oldwikisource:Category:Dolnoserbšćina. (The language categories at Old Wikisource are rather inconsistent: some use the native name, some use the English name, and some use the ISO code.) Angr 11:09, 30 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am relatively sure that it has been asked: What do you think to keep sources on German Wikisource? All Sorbian speakers are fluent in German and I think that it would be more logical to create project there, instead of maintaining one more project. Besides the fact that multilingual Wikisource exists. BTW, I don't want to sound paternalistic, but it seems relatively irrational to me to have one more project for maintaining by so small number of native speakers. (It is not about one more Wikimedia project, it is about one more place to take care by very limited amount of native speakers.) However, if your decision is really to have that, I am in favor. (And we "just" need to find a formal frame for that.) --Millosh 04:28, 27 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- That would have to be discussed at s:de:Skriptorium first, and personally I think it's unlikely that there would be a consensus among German Wikisourcerors that hosting Sorbian texts there would be acceptable. Still, it can't hurt to ask. Angr 18:36, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorbian belongs (like Polish or Czech) to the Slavonic language family, while German belongs (like Dutch or English) to the Germanic language family. It's not a good idea to mix these thwo languages just because native Sorbian speakers are fluent German speakers. Wikisource is not only a target for native speakers. In Czechia (mainly Prague) there have been several publishers who published Sorbian literature too. Because of this, there are some Wikisource users from the Czech Republic who have only a basic knowledge of German but have contributed Sorbian texts. Furthermore, the German Wikisource project has made some more restrictive rules within the last months, while the multilingual Wikisource appears to be (at least to me) just a place were one could drop some texts. --32X 01:21, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In which language interface should be? --Millosh 15:51, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Probably Upper as default, since it has more speakers. Registered users can of course set whatever language they like in their preferences. Communication among users can probably be in either language, since they're highly mutually intelligible, at least in their written form; communication can also of course be in German or English. Angr 17:28, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - Yes, it is not so important which one we choose, but I would prefer Upper.--Tchoř 22:27, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have been split on this affair: On the one hand it is a good thing to have such a project that concentrates all Sorbian resources. On the other hand: Who shall do that? As user in the Sorbian Wikipedias I know that there is a handful of people only who regularly collaborate. All hands are needed for the Wikipedias. -- A second point: You want to use wen as code for both Sorbian languages. But AFAIK wen is obsolete in this meaning as a code of ISO-639-2. It comes from a time when there were no separate codes for Upper and Lower Sorbian. Besides it is ambiguous: As SIL code wen stands for Upper Sorbian only, whereas wee stands for Lower Sorbian. I know, Wikimedia projects use ISO-639 and not SIL but the used code should be clearly defined. Also here I am split: I am sure there would be sufficient material to create two separate Wikisource projects for Upper Sorbian resp. Lower Sorbian. But the most important question is here as well: Who shall do it? Are there enough users who can do the work? Regards, --Michawiki 13:24, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- SIL wen stays for "Soriban languages", inherited from ISO 639-2. Code 'wen' is also ISO 639-5 collective code for Sorbian languages. --Millosh 12:14, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So what are the next steps? More than one year has passed since the original request and Oldwikisource is not exactly the place to build up a qualitatively orientated project. --32X 09:40, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, what are we waiting for? --Tchoř (talk) 16:03, 9 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Asking here and there I finally got it: We are expected to create higher traffic on multilingual wikisource, until then there will be no wen.wikisource. So roll up our sleeves and start working … ☺--Tchoř (talk) 23:11, 4 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]