Disputatio:Satmarinum

Satu Mare: Nominis prima pars de voce Turcica „sat“ (mercari, negotiari, vendere) derivasse videtur (Dacoromanice „satu“ = vicus est interpretatio popularis posterior). Scriptio „z-„ sive „sz“ praevalet, sed (tantum) „substratum Hungaricum“ indicat et pronuntiationem –s- praestat. Utilo 21:27, 29 Martii 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Gratias ago, Utilo! Semper credidi id nomen "magnus vicus" significare. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 08:35, 30 Martii 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Attestatio antiquissima est „castrum zotmar“ in: Anonymus, Gesta Hungarorum (De Zobolsu)

Zathmarinum: A katolikus iskolák dokumentumai

Satmarinum: Imago Novae Hungariae, Repraesentans Regna, Provincias, Banatus, Et Comitatus Ditionis Hungaricae, a Samuele Timon, Viennae Austriae 1754; praeterea libri sivi documenta recentiora ecclesiastica, e.g. Directorium Szatmáriense ...., Satmarini 1924-1927 n. 1296

Szathmarinum (et Nemethium) Primae lineae M. Principatus Transilvaniae historiam antiqui, medii et recentioris aevi exhibentes et illustrantes, auctore Martino Felmer, Cibinii 1780 et alii

Szatmarinum Historia Critica Regum Hungariae ..., a Stephano Katona, Budae 1805

Szathmariensis: J. G. Th. Graesse, Orbis Latinus (Dresdae: Schönfeld, 1861; 1909. Brunsvici, 1972, 3 voll.) 1 2 3

Szatmariensis et Zathmariensis: Repertorium locorum obiectorumque ... Satmariensis: Satmariensis imprimis in documentis ecclesiaticis temporis recentioris: dioecesis satmariensis, episcopus satmariensis etc.

Sattmariensis: Imago amtiquae et novae Hungariae, a Samuele Timon, Cassoviae 1733

Zathmarinus (scholae Zathmarinae): I. A RÉGI MATRIKULA-KÓDEX 1610–1737(1747)--Utilo 20:40, 29 Martii 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting concerning the spelling: "Sattmariensis: patria scribendi ratione Szattmariensis" (Samuel Timon, Imago etc.--Utilo 21:27, 29 Martii 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Certus non sum, sed censeo formam simpliciorem "Satmarinum" nobis praeferendam (et, ecce, iam selegisti!) Terminatio -inum est fortasse normalis pro urbibus in Latinitate tardiori huius regionis (cf. Aradinum etc.). Combinatio "Sz-" pertinet orthographiae speciali linguae Hungaricae; pronuntiatio est "S-" (id iam supra dixisti).

"Satmariensis" debet re vera adiectivum esse, et nobis utile si formae adiectivae necesse sit. Consentis? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 08:35, 30 Martii 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to agree, Andrew, but Google Books speak against:

This shows, again, that Latin as used in practice is a spelling-based language, not a pronunciation-based one (even though here the pronunciation is pretty uncontroversial, I believe traditional Hungarian Latinists still pronounce s as /s/, and even if they don't, it remains to be quite a unique feature).

By the way, does anyone know why the adjectives are Szathmariensis, Zathmariensis etc., and not Szathmarinensis, Zathmarinensis, etc. (from Szhathmarinum, Zathmarinum)? Is that some special rule concerning the -ensis suffix? --Gabriel Svoboda 09:01, 30 Martii 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think more likely it's a special rule (in regional modern Latin) producing the place-name termination -inum. We might find an earlier Satmaria (or Z- or Sz-) if we went on looking. Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:40, 30 Martii 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And, sure enough, here's a Zathmaria [1]. Alongside a Toccaya. Do we have an article on that famous name as yet? Andrew Dalby (disputatio) 10:44, 30 Martii 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Toccaya? - Hélas! We haven't ... - Z/Sz/S-Spelling: Of course, z/sz outnumbers s-, being typical for Hungarian Latin (in order to ensure the pronounciation |s| (in Hungarian -s- is pronounced like German -sch-, sz- like German or Latin s-).--Utilo 12:44, 30 Martii 2010 (UTC)[reply]