Wiktionary talk:Greek noun inflection-table templates

Feminine nouns in -ος

1. @Dimboukas, Eipnvn, Flyax, Omnipaedista, Xoristzatziki, Rossyxan Two reliable sources: Triandaphyllisis (trans. J Burke) and Holton et al (Greek - A comprehensive grammar ...) state that the vocative case for these nouns is rare or very rare. Holton et al say 'The vocative case for such nouns is very rare. If used (eg in poetic addresses to islands), it is more likely to end in "-ο" than in the more learned "-ε".' I will remove the vocative from the relevant 8 templates starting "el-nF-…" in a few days time (~30 Nov) unless there are objections. Those words with an attested vocative form could be added individually as a note.
2. Now might be a convenient time for any other problems to be discussed.— Saltmarsh. 16:20, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh, I disagree. First of all the sources state that they are rare or very rare, not non existent or obsolete. Second and most important, according to this table are declined many feminine nouns that end in –ος that happen to be the same with their masculine forms, such as η πρόεδρος, η γιατρός. The vocative of these feminine nouns is πρόεδρε, γιατρέ, etc. and is extremely common. Dimboukas (talk) 16:42, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

@Dimboukas: Question: I thought masculine/femine nouns like γιατρός follow the masculine declension (you could say that they are masculine nouns which take, as appropriate, a feminine adjective and article "η καλή γιατρός") - we do only use one table for such entries. — Saltmarsh. 19:05, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Just discussing not arguing :) - but Holton, Mackridge et al omit the vocative from their table. And the few cases where the case is attested can have a note attached. As we do things now the vocative is produced automatically whether or not can be found - or even it exists. — Saltmarsh. 19:03, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh. You can't say that γιατρός is a masculine noun that takes a feminine article and adjective! This is a soloecism because one of most fundamental rules of the Modern Greek grammar is that nouns agree in gender with the adjective and the article. Finally, Modern Greek is a living language so there is no need for a word to be attested in order to be in a declension table of a dictionary. Dimboukas (talk) 19:28, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

OK! Badly worded - when referring to a female medic it still declines in the same way as the masculine paradigm. — Saltmarsh. 05:45, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh, For my part, I recently changed the vocative from -ε to -ο. My rationale is basically what 'sounds' right, as in having been around Greek speakers and being one myself, I would find it far more plausible that someone would, hypothetically, address (say in a poem or such), 'Κύπρος' as 'Κύπρο μου', rather than 'Κύπρε μου' which sounds to me unnatural and bizarre. Having said that, I may be completely wrong for all I know but it's just an intuition thing. Babiniotis and Klairis disagree with me though in their "Γραμματική της Νέας Ελληνικής". I am quoting verbatim, from the paragraph (pg 53) on "Vocative": "In most cases, the vocative coincides in form with the nominative; this always happens with neuter nouns and nearly always with feminine nouns (παιδί μου, μητέρα, κόρη μου). The only exception is feminine nouns in -ος, that form their vocative like the corresponding male nouns (κυρία συνήγορε). However, by their nature, feminine nouns (place names, abstract meanings) are almost never used in the vocative." So they disagree with me entirely, even though I think that sounds improper. Rossyxan (talk) 02:34, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

I will things as they are! — Saltmarsh. 06:21, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Transliteration

Seeing as this is evidently the designated place of discussion, uh, I find this actually a (probably) pretty good way of going about things and maybe something that should be generalized. I don't want to fully promote this just yet as there may be drawbacks, but I invite anyone with an opinion to comment if they are paying attention to this page. — ObſequiousNewt — Geſpꝛaͤch — Beÿtraͤge 05:59, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Additional learned forms for el-nM-ης-αδες-1 (and others?) in genitive and vocative singular

I was just looking at the καθηγητής entry of the Greek wiktionary and it showed two additional learned forms, namely καθηγητού (gen. sg.) and καθηγητά (voc. sg.). Shouldn't they be added to the el-nM-ης-αδες-1 template at least? Orgyn (talk) 14:40, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

@Orgyn: That paradigm seems to have variety of extra forms, more easily added as ootnotes. — Saltmarsh. 17:10, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

Making el-nN-ον-οντα-1 more general

I'm proposing we modify both el-nN-ον-οντα-1 and el-nN-ον-οντα-2b to something like el-nN-ν-ντα-1 and el-nN-ν-ντα-2b so that they can be used for words like ανακοινωθέν, φωνήεν, συμβάν, σύμπαν and surely others. In Greek: A Comprehensive Grammar all these words belong to the same category—see part II chapter 2.4.9 Other neuter nouns in -ν—and thus are declined with the same endings. What do you think? — Orgyn (talk) 16:10, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

I think it easier not to introduce a 'new' style of template - having started down the route I've been following, I feel enclined to follow the pattern already used. You do end up with a multitude of templates - but it is easy to create a new one, which is easily understood. More sophisticated coding would reduce teh number of templates at the expense of making them less readable (if that is what you were suggesting). — Saltmarsh. 15:15, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

Done — Saltmarsh. 16:00, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

All feminines -ος

@Saltmarsh, I do not know your way to add second optional forms. All the feminines -ος or -ός {{el-nF-ος-1}}, {{el-nF-ος-οι-1}}, {{el-nF-ος-2a}}, {{el-nF-ος-οι-2a}}, {{el-nF-ος-οι-2a1}}, {{el-nF-ος-οι-3b1}}, {{el-nF-ος-3a}} and {{el-nF-ος-3b1}} have a vocative ‑ε or -έ and in parenthesis (-ο) or (ό). It is double checked in schoolbooks, etc. Ι use -ε and never -ο, but some people do. If you show me one example, I can add to all of them. Thannkkks sarri.greek (talk) 14:52, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek The noun declension templates started a while ago, {{el-nM-ος-οι-1}} for example in 2006 and they are cruder. If a noun needs a 2nd alternative form it is necessary to create another template. For example {{el-nF-α-ες-3b2}} gave rise to {{el-nF-α-ες-3b}} when θύελλα was declined. {{el-decl-noun}} shows the extra parameters: ns, np, … (obviously added as an afterthought when I remembered that some Greek nouns had 'extra' forms). IS this what you mean?

• It is not possible to show rarity, learnedness, etc of a form as you can with verbs - and I think this should be avoided - thereby lie endless complications! The better place for this is on the rare forms page. — Saltmarsh. 05:53, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks @Saltmarsh -I have to run to the dentist's now- See youuu sarri.greek (talk) 06:01, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Goodluck (I went on Tuesday) - I'll do the first one above - if you give me an sample noun. — Saltmarsh. 06:03, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Ο! @Saltmarsh I am just viewing your comment, above. I have fixed them all: Voc -ε plus vs=-ο. And I have updated Wiktionary:Greek noun inflection-table templates. Now, I'll check the inflection pages. Thanks! (I am doint it at @el too). --sarri.greek (talk) 09:13, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek — thank you — Saltmarsh. 10:01, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘mvd from Category talk:Greek nouns declining like 'τάφρος' 3-Aug-2020 @Saltmarsh, Hello from a very hot Athens. This looks identical to Template:el-nF-ος-οι-2a. Maybe not needed? Also, at el-nF-ος-οι-2a I see two asteriscs (probably old notes). Have a nice summer-vacation, my love to F! sarri.greek (talk) 13:47, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
PS. Also Template:el-nF-ος-3a and Category:Greek nouns declining like 'Άνδρος' are identical to Category:Greek nouns declining like 'Κύπρος' sarri.greek (talk) 15:30, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek We had England's hottest day ever 38.7C last week in Cambridge and we were more-or-less the same, happily now in the mid to low 20s. I see Athens is heading for 38 again today - hope you have κλιματισμός.

• Category:Greek nouns declining like 'Άνδρος' seems a aberration - did I look at Άνδρος and imagine it was proparaoxytone? We shall never know.
• Category:Greek nouns declining like 'τάφρος' was originally intended for those with a single voc-sing, presumably what my source for that noun said. I'll sort out these things.

Thanks for spotting them — Saltmarsh. 05:31, 3 August 2019 (UTC)