Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/5/People

General Level 1 Level 2 Level 3 Level 4 Level 5

Level 5 Subpages

People History and geography Society STEM

Introduction

The purpose of this discussion page is to select 50,000 topics for which Wikipedia should have high-quality articles.

Any article currently on this list may be challenged. The discussion is open to the following rules:

Voting count table (>60%)

P = passes F = fails		opposing votes
		0	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9
0	supporting votes	–	–	–	–	F	F	F	F	F	F
1		–	–	–	F	F	F	F	F	F	F
2		–	–	F	F	F	F	F	F	F	F
3		–	F	F	F	F	F	F	F	F	F
4		P	P	P	F	F	F	F	F	F	F
5		P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F	F	F
6		P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F	F	F
7		P	P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F	F
8		P	P	P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F
9		P	P	P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F

1. Before being closed, a Level 5 proposal must:
   1. Run for at least 15 days; AND
   2. Allow at least 7 days after the most recent vote; AND
   3. Have at least 4 participants.
2. For a proposal to be implemented on the Level 5 list:
   1. It must have over 60% support (see table); AND
   2. It must have at least 4 support votes !votes.
3. For proposed additions from August 2024 onwards, the nominator should list (and possibly link to) at least one potential section in the level 5 vital articles list for the article to be added to. Supporters can also help in this regard.

For reference, the following times apply for today:

• 15 days ago is: 12:36, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
• 7 days ago is: 12:36, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

If you're interested in regularly participating as a closer, the following browser tools may also be helpful:

• Streamlined closing with User:DaxServer/DiscussionCloser.js
• One click archiving with User:Elli/OneClickArchiver
  • Consider User:andrybak/Archiver if you prefer archiving several discussions in one go

The following link represent all current Level 5 Vital articles that are classified as people:

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Miscellaneous

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Artists, musicians, and composers

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Entertainers, directors, producers, and screenwriters

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Military personnel, revolutionaries, and activists

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Philosophers, historians, political and social scientists

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Politicians and leaders

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Religious figures

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Scientists, inventors, and mathematicians

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Sports figures

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Writers and journalists

Add Norman Granz

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Founder of Verve Records and manager of Ella Fitzgerald  4.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 11:10, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
3. "the most successful impresario in the history of jazz" Makkool (talk) 09:44, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
4. Sure, musicians are still within the /- 2% cushion, and jazz doesn't always get enough play. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
5. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 21:27, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

1. I've been away for a few months, but I am going to step back here and question why a founder of a non-vital label is that important. At first I put this question in the oppose section. Then, I saw Berry Gordy is vital and Motown isn't. My question is whether we really need a behind the scenes guy rather than a jazz artist that might need a push over the hump.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:28, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

   I don't participate on the People list as much; I just saw one section still needs brainstorming and thought I'd help vote & close in the meantime.

   You raise a good point though. Maybe the best thing would be to propose another jazz musician here and/or some record labels under Companies? It might also convince some people if you mention this proposal in the new one. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 19:30, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

   Granz absolutely deserves a spot here. His Jazz at the Philharmonic recordings are iconic and some of his other recordings such as Art Tatum  5's The Art Tatum - Ben Webster Quartet are considered part of the 'core collection' of essential recordings by The Penguin Guide to Jazz. That being said, I have noticed that jazz is missing a few musicians I would consider VA5. I haven't proposed any because I'm not really sure who I'd want to replace them with and I don't want to bloat musicians any further. But two of my top contenders would be:

   1) Johnny Hodges - Just as notable as Benny Carter  5 and Ben Webster  5 with more interwikis than either of them. Also got his fame from being in Duke Ellington  4's orchestra with an extremely prolific solo career as well. Top-Importance on Wikiproject Jazz.

   2) Gene Krupa - We underrepresent instrumentalists on our musicians list in general, but we especially underrepresent drummers, some of whom are household names but because they aren't the front of the band, we tend to ignore them. We do list arguably the great jazz drummer of all time, Buddy Rich  5, but Krupa is iconic enough in his own right to warrant a spot here. Referred to as "the founding father of modern drumset playing". Top-importance in Wikiproject Jazz. Aurangzebra (talk) 22:01, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Move Ch'oe Ch'i-wŏn

Although we got a lot of reformers on here, their activities are at least tied to their religion. I don't think that's the cause for Ch'oe, especially since during the time he was active, he was a Confucianist, not a Buddhist. I prefer moving him to the politicians page, but since he was apparently a philosopher, I'll leave that option out as well. (We do have people in that page who were government officials.)

To politicians

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:06, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

To philosophers

1. Support move to philosophers. I only skimmed the article, but sounds like he wrote rather than led a religious community, and his political programme seems more secular. It doesn't sound like he had much real political authority or success though (similar to Plato in Syracuse). -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Kevinishere15 (talk) 19:10, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Keep

Discuss

• Whatever the outcome, the article definitely makes it sound like his Buddhism was just a late-life interest and incidental to his career. So he probably shouldn't be grouped under Buddhist religious figures. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Remove Abdellatief Abouheif  5, Olga Brusnikina  5, and Anastasia Davydova  5

All three are stubs. Abouheif's Arabic article is a little bit longer, but he only has five interwikis. In contrast, while Brusnikina and Davydova both have at least twenty interwikis, they are all pretty stubby as much as their English article, including the Russian versions. (Roland Matthes  5 is also a stub, but he is a lot closer comparatively to start status, and he's considered the greatest backstroke swimmer of all time; for that, I'm not nominating him.)

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 07:25, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose, more on the basis of the proposal. Neither current article quality nor interwikis are one of our criteria, though both are good metrics to factor in. I could see both metrics being biased against figures popular outside the English-speaking world though. I've already discussed above how rejecting articles that are currently stubs / starts could be self-defeating. Sports figures are still within our /- 2% cushion too so I don't think we need to cut. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Swap Kander and Ebb  5 with John Kander and Fred Ebb

Other than four other Wikipedias, no one has bothered to write a page on the songwriter pairing itself. Kander and Ebb themselves at least have 18 and 15 interwikis respectively, however.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:05, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Support add, oppose removal

1. Weird vote, I know, and I've never even heard of these two. But they've already made it to VA5, and we're still within the cushion for Musicians, so I say make the overlap explicit on the list. If their articles should be consolidated, then that needs to be decided at the actual article level. Maybe seeing the redundancy clearly on the list will stimulate that (which is the ultimate goal of VA). -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Swap Bryan brothers  5 with Bob Bryan and Mike Bryan

Same thing as above, although at least the article about this pair has at least nine interwikis. (Bob and Mike themselves have 36 and 34.) Admittedly, Kander and Ebb at least makes up for that for not treating the article on their pairing as the main one.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:24, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. They are known for their doubles career and not for their individual accomplishments. Aurangzebra (talk) 13:36, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
2. Per Aurangzebra-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:32, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Per above. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 17:51, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Support add, oppose removal

1. Same logic as above; redundancies like this should probably be resolved at the article level. And as long as there's room, making them explicit on the list may help stimulate that. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Abdel Fattah al-Burhan

Head of state of Sudan since 2019. Leads the Sudanese Armed Forces (SAF) against the Rapid Support Forces (RSF) in the ongoing War in Sudan. He also botched the Sudanese transition to democracy.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
2. If we're going to have current national leaders, this guy seems pretty notable. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Friedrich Ebert

He is sometimes viewed as the world’s first social democratic head of state and one of the only three “real” Presidents of Germany from 1918 to 1945. His legacy is complex and controversial, particularly concerning the crises that led to Hitler's rise to power.

Support

1. As nominator. To politicians. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
3. --Thi (talk) 20:44, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
4. I don't especially prioritize the Leaders section, but let's push this one across the finish line. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Georgi Plekhanov

Known as “the father of Russian Marxism”, he was undeniably an immense influence on the Bolsheviks, who gave him the rare distinction of admiring him despite his misgivings towards them.

Support

1. As nominator. To revolutionaries. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
3. --Thi (talk) 20:50, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
4. Sure, let's push this one across the finish line. -- Zar2gar1 (talk)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Adrian Lamo  5

Other than exposing Chelsea Manning  5, I cant really think of a reason to keep him here. He hacked a bunch of high-profile companies, but I don't think that enough to make him vital.

Support

1. 49p (talk) 17:33, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:30, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Very soft oppose, if only because we're still under-quota for Miscellaneous. For all the over-representation of tech elsewhere, hacker/activist strikes me as an interesting category for now. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Willie O'Ree

First black National Hockey League player. Although not the first person of color in the NHL, O'Ree is widely regarded as the "Jackie Robinson of hockey".

Would be added to Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Sports figures#Wingers.

Support

1. As nom. B3251_(talk) 21:43, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Sure, we still have a little cushion in sports figures, and I like hockey. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
3. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:36, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose, Larry Kwong isn't listed who is at a similar level of notability. Sahaib (talk) 21:23, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add John C. Bogle

Founder of the The Vanguard Group  5. Known for his different approach to investing, abstaining from short-term speculation and popularizing the index fund to working-class individuals. His approach to investment is still widely used today, namely those who followed are called "Bogleheads".

Support

1. 49p (talk) 00:43, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Sure, we could use more business people (under Miscellaneous), and while he didn't invent passive-investment, he possibly did more than any one person to make it so dominant today. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Espionage additions

Above I said that the Espionage subsection under "Miscellaneous" probably should have more than eight listings. Granted there are some that could fit under it that are also under other categories (such as Markus Wolf  5 of the Stasi) but there are others who do not.

Add Eli Cohen

Mossad agent who infiltrated the Syrian government and was later executed, and remains a famed figure in Israeli society.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 18:04, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Strong support, we're still under quota for Miscellaneous, and for something as ancient and full of mystique as espionage, 8 articles seems really low. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

• @Iostn: - I have linked the espionage section in your comment. I think it is best practice to help closers. Thank you. starship.paint (RUN) 00:43, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Add Chevalier d'Éon

18th century French spy who has been the subject of intrigue for centuries, remains referenced in pop culture and is seen as a figure of transgender history.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 18:04, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Strong support, we're still under quota for Miscellaneous, and for something as ancient and full of mystique as espionage, 8 articles seems really low. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Oleg Penkovsky

Since we already have numerous high profile British and American spies for the Soviet Union listed, here is one of the most high-profile examples of the reverse happening.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 18:04, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Strong support, we're still under quota for Miscellaneous, and for something as ancient and full of mystique as espionage, 8 articles seems really low. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap: Remove B. J. Penn and Chuck Liddell, add George Hackenschmidt

MMA is overrepresented with 15 athletes despite being a considerably younger sport than wrestling. MMA is skewed toward the recent UFC; all fifteen entries were born in the last 61 years and competed in the last 31. 40% of them are American males; of those, Penn and Liddell appear to be the least notable; having the fewest overall wins, fewest title wins, and fewest interwikis.

George Hackenschmidt was the first world heavyweight wrestling champion, and also invented the bench press _pbp 13:47, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 14:51, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
2. Support Liddell and Hackenschmidt per nom. Neutral on Penn because he seems decently important. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:21, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
4. Sure, let's push this proposal across the finish line. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Add Carl Woese

Helped define Archaea  3. Described on the ranks with Charles Darwin  3, Francis Crick  4, and James Watson  4. Helped revolutionize microbiology with 16S ribosomal RNA. 33 interwikis

Support

1. 115.188.65.157 (talk) 08:00, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
2. Support, we're still under quota / 2% cushion for Scientists, and among them, Physicists are over-represented. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Add Thomas Cavalier-Smith

Has proposed and defined many higher taxa such as Rhizaria  4, Excavata  4, Cryptomonad  4, Chromalveolata  4, Chromista  5, Euglenozoa  4, Bikont  5, Radiolaria  5, Cercozoa  5, Opisthokonta, and Viridiplantae. 28 interwikis

Support

1. 115.188.65.157 (talk) 08:00, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
2. Support, we're still under quota / 2% cushion for Scientists, and among them, Physicists are over-represented. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Remove Luc Ferry  5

No info about any kind of influence he's had over philosophy, the section he is listed as vital under. He was also Minister for Youth, National Education and Research of France for two years, but that isn't exactly a super influential position that's enough to warrent inclusion, either. I imagine most of the interwikis are from his cabinet position, and pageviews are not that high either.

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 20:47, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
3. Support, article doesn't make him sound particularly impressive. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Shireen Abu Akleh to journalists

Among the most notable journalists who have worked during the Israel-Palestine conflict, this would help reduce sysbias in that section

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 18:21, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
2. Seems important enough. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:02, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
3. After some thought, sure, even though Writers & Journalists is still over-quota. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 17:54, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Milton A. Rothman  5

Not much claim vitality. He's a professor who founded a sci-fi convention.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:49, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
2. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 14:54, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
3. --Thi (talk) 21:15, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
4. Definitely remove, let's push this across the finish line. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Roger Mudd

A well-known American TV journalist. Dan Rather  5 from the same era of television is listed, and Mudd seems to be equally vital as him. Won multiple Emmy awards and the Peabody award.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:51, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Never a long-term primary anchor as I recall and as I understand it.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:44, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discuss

UK modern Christian leaders additions

There is a disproportionate amount of American Christian leaders, especially televangelists, in the religious leaders section. There's just a few people listed from the UK, even Australia has more. American Christians are surely influential in the global scene and more well-known figures, but I think we should have some more British people on that list for diversity's sake. I have here some suggestions to consider, not everyone needs to be added.

I also think we could spare to remove some of the televangelists to have more proportionality, we don't even have Televangelism  5 as a vital article. But that'll be a separate proposal.

Probably three or four of the modern American televangelists should be removed. Of these additions, I think one is fair, but all three is excessive. It bears mentioning that contemporary UK is largely a nation of non-adherents. _pbp 15:12, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

If we would decide that just one is needed, then maybe we should choose to list the current Archbishop of Canterbury. Although Williams is arguably more famous than Welby. Makkool (talk) 16:10, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Add Justin Welby

The currect Archbishop of Canterbury, and the leader of the worldwide Anglican church. Has focused in social justice and modern challenges in his leadership.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:18, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 09:37, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
3. Support, but ironically looks like he's not going to be at Canterbury much longer. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add John Sentamu

A former Archbishop of York, the second highest leader in Church of England. Originally from Uganda, he was the first black Archbishop of York. An influential figure in the UK, and an out-spoken critic against African dictators.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:18, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Sure, we're still a bit below quota for religious figures, and if we allow BLPs for other topics, why not here? -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. It doesn't feel right to support a #2 in this regard.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:56, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Rowan Williams

A former Archbishop of Canterbury. A respected theologian, public intellectual and Christian writer in the UK, a still active commentator today.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:18, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Of the three proposed additions, I consider he to be the most worthy _pbp 22:37, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
3. Surprised we don't list him honestly; I'm neither British nor Christian, but I've definitely read about him. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Moving pirates, outlaws, highwaymen etc from "rebels, revolutionaries and activists" to Misellaneous#Crime

As it stands the activist section seems to be the default place to dump entries like these, although I am pretty sure crime makes a lot more sense. I've finally attempted to go through and grab the various pirate/outlaw entries listed there and proposed places to fit them under the Crime section. "Piracy" currently does not exist as a subsection under crime, but you can consider creating that as part of this proposal.

Piracy

• Blackbeard  4
• Calico Jack  5
• Anne Bonny  5
• William Kidd  5
• Henry Morgan  5
• Bartholomew Roberts  5
• Zheng Yi Sao  5

Thievery, robbery and hijacking

• Claude Duval  5
• John Nevison  5
• Dick Turpin  5
• Xaver Hohenleiter  5
• Juraj Jánošík  5
• Louis Mandrin  5
• John Caesar  5
• Jesús Arriaga  5
• Joaquin Murrieta  5

Organized crime

• Tiburcio Vásquez  5
• Veerappan  5

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 17:26, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 11:23, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12:01, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
4. Support per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 18:46, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

1. Blackbeard is Level 4, so for him a proposal needs to be opened on the Level 4 talk page. Makkool (talk) 12:25, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

   Crime isn't even a section at V4 so I'm not proposing it be moved there Iostn (talk) 14:14, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

   You're right! Pablo Escobar  4 is in businesspeople. That's a tangle to sort. Makkool (talk) 14:52, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Swap iJustine for El Rubius

The Web entertainers and internet personalities section does not have enough non-English speaking creators, the only one being Germán Garmendia. Rubius started his channel in 2006 and has over 40 million subscribers on his main channel and 12 million on his second channel. He also has one of the most-followed Twitch channels in the world. iJustine does not seem to have as much long-term significance being known for the 2007 video 300-page iPhone bill which may have been notable at the time but I doubt that many would recall it. Sahaib (talk) 20:12, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Listing nom's vote explicitly. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I wouldn't be opposed to removing iJustine (her main notability is that she was a pioneer in lifecasting and live streaming in general but her impact hasn't really stood the test of time). But I would be opposed to adding El Rubius. I feel like Youtuber subscriber and Twitch follower counts don't mean much for vitality. When you look at the List of most-subscribed YouTube channels and List of most-followed Twitch channels, I guarantee you that there will be many, many names on there you won't recognize at all no matter how terminally online you are. In fact, there are two Spanish Twitch streamers who are ahead of El Rubius (AuronPlay and Ibai Llanos). It doesn't make sense to add him when we recently rejected IShowSpeed who truly has an international audience and attracts massive crowds that, as two examples, have shut down entire malls in Malaysia [1] and blocked off entire streets in Norway [2]. Aurangzebra (talk) 00:34, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

   Just a small correction, El Rubius and other Spanish-speaking YouTubers do have an international audience, there are 21 countries that have Spanish as an official language so I would say that is quite international, plus you might not recognize them because of cisbias, but they are pretty well-known. The Blue Rider 15:46, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

   That's true but I still cannot justify adding streamers like this who have virtually no presence outside of the Spanish-speaking world (even factoring in sysbias, you can reason this out by the fact that he doesn't offer any content in languages outside Spanish nor does he provide closed captioning in other languages) when we quickly reject other streamers who can draw insane crowds no matter what country they go to.

   In general, I would also say content creation on Youtube/Twitch is a finicky business. It is very easy for your audience to outgrow you as they age or you yourself to outgrow what you do as you burn out/realize you've grown out of what made you famous and want to make an unpopular pivot. People who were considered superstars just a decade ago are no longer relevant (an easy example is the aforementioned Germán Garmendia). Streamers or creators can take over the Internet for a couple of years and make it seem like they're never going to drop off in relevance but it is very rare to find content creators whose relevance has stood the test of time.

   This is not to say that El Rubius has been affected by this. It seems like he is still relevant today. But my point is that we need to hold Youtube content creators to a higher standard. If we judged VA5 based on popularity/most followers/most subscribers, this list would be 80% content creators most of us would have never heard of before. Aurangzebra (talk) 19:50, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

1. I don't know how much pioneers should be given credit, but at the time of this nomination had it been 6 month since she survived the last demotion attempt. I guess if a lot of people keep nominating something to be demoted, maybe the smoke indicates a true fire, but I don't like revisiting noms more than once a year. We should definitely have a 6 month hiatus.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:21, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

   That's a good find. If this repeats a recent proposal, I agree with you that maybe we should let this die on the vine. I don't particularly like the idea of any influencers being on the list, but it looks like this proposal is stalling out anyways. Unless everyone objects or suddenly revives it, I say we close it out as stalled after the 3 month mark (ca. Dec 20th). -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

New religious movement figures cleanup

Remove Joseph Kibweteere

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Probably listed because he was leader of the Movement for the Restoration of the Ten Commandments of God, responsible for one of the largest ever mass suicides, but he doesn't seem to be that vital in his own right, outside of the group. I don't even know if the group itself would be vital.

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 10:27, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
2. --Thi (talk) 21:18, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12:55, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 20:43, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Swap Stephen McNallen  5 for Sveinbjörn Beinteinsson

Stephen McNallen is an influential figure in white supremacist Norse neopaganism, which is societally marginal and not even dominant among white supremacists. Sveinbjoern founded the Ásatrúarfélagið, which is the largest neopagan religious movement in the world in proportion to the number of followers in its country of origin, with over 1% of the Icelandic population being Asatru, which I think easily places him among the most influential Neopagan religious figures.

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 10:27, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Support swap Makkool (talk) 20:43, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Mixed

1. Support removal, oppose addition. Ásatrúarfélagið has under 6000 followers. Kevinishere15 (talk) 21:02, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

   That's over 1% of the Icelandic population, which makes it the only country in the world where a form of neopaganism is practiced by a significant proportion of the population. In addition, both of the other neopagan figures listed are Wiccan, and removing alone would leave the list without any form of reconstructionist religion, which is arguably one of the most significant recent religious phenomena. The Icelandic Asatru Association is also more broadly influential over Heathenry (new religious movement)  5 as a whole, regardless of the low population of Iceland itself limiting its membership numbers. Iostn (talk) 19:17, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

2. Support removal, neutral on addition. I think all the points given are actually a stronger argument for adding Ásatrúarfélagið to Religion than its founder. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Swap Yahweh ben Yahweh for Black Hebrew Israelites

An obscure figures compared to the movement he represented, which isn't listed. Add Black Hebrew Israelites to "new religious movements" under philosophy and religion.

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 10:27, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom Makkool (talk) 20:43, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 18:46, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Mostly ambivalent, but let's go ahead and push this one over the finish line. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Ira Losco

Losco is probably the only Maltese musician that could make the list (though I believe Aidan who has been dominating the charts in Malta for the last 5 years could make it in the future). She has competed in Eurovision twice (the first time coming 2nd), won numerous awards and is frequently described as Malta's queen of pop. She would probably go in the Popular music: General section as she almost exclusively sings in English (one of the official languages of Malta). Sahaib (talk) 13:27, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Make vote by nom explicit. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Politician/leader changes

As it stands there are plenty of major omissions of major figures on the politicians and leaders section, in favour of more questionable entries and attempts to cover as many as independent states (including microstates) as possible, even at the expense of important leaders from elsewhere. Likely the section quota needs to be increased anyway, but even until then there's a lot of potential improvement to be made.

Swap Milton Cato  5 for Edward Seaga

Prime minister for under five years of a country with a population of ~100k (presumably even lower when he was leader) versus someone who was a leading figure in Jamaican politics for over 30 years, prime minister for nine, and as a record label owner, was influential in developing Jamaica's cultural power overseas. Arguably served as the foil to Michael Manley  5.

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 20:59, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Mixed

1. Oppose removing Milton Cato because he was very important to Saint Vincent and the Grenadines and is seemingly part of the reason they are a separate country. Neutral on adding Seaga. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:38, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Swap Lyudvig Chibirov  5 for Ebrahim Raisi

Stub article on the president of a barely recognized state with a population of ~50k vs the president of Iran, with a population of nearly 90 million at what has been a time of major international crisis directly involving the country.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 20:59, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Support both per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:42, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
3. Support, although he wasn't president for very long, Raisi's presidency was a very dynamic one, especially on the diplomatic front. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Sabah Al-Salim Al-Sabah  5 for Ismail Haniyeh

Head of state of Kuwait (a small country) for a decently long length of time, but no indication that he was that internationally important vs the recently killed leader of Hamas  5

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 20:59, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Al-Sabah's article does not indicate any lasting importance, while Haniyeh was definitely an important politician. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:48, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

   Although, I feel like Yahya Sinwar would be more important to include, and I don't think Hamas is important enough for two politicians. Support for now, but I would rather add Sinwar than Haniyeh. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:49, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

   Haniyeh was in a more senior poistion, Sinwar I think was more strongly linked to the October 7 attack/current war specifically to my knowledge Iostn (talk) 20:20, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

3. We already list several Al-Sabah rulers, including the sheikhs that established the country and the king during the Iraqi occupation. Hamas also definitely transformed under Haniyeh. I get the logic of suggesting Sinwar, but like Iostn, I think he might be more fitting as a military commander. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Janet Jagan  5 for Gabriel Boric

Prime Minister of Guyana (pop ~800k) for ~9 months, and president for less than two, vs the current President of one of the most most developed countries in South America, coming to power on a platform of constitutional reform. Also note that Guyana, despite its low population, has five different politicians listed.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 20:59, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Agree, if we're listing current world leaders, Boric should definitely be there if only because he arguably ended the post-Pinochet era in Chile. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Ati George Sokomanu  5 for B. J. Habibie

First (ceremonial) president of Vanuatu, with a population of 300,000 and very little international influence. I wasn't sure wherever to nominate him or Walter Lini  5 initially, but Lini seems more important and the presidency is described as "mostly ceremonial". Habibie served as president for only a short period of time, but in one of the world's most populous countries (Indonesia), and was reponsible for administring over the end of the 30 year long New Order (Indonesia)  5, giving him extra significance.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 20:59, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Tosiwo Nakayama  5 for Tomiichi Murayama

First president of a country with a population of ~100k (and at the time even lower) versus one of Japan's only non-LDP prime minister's since the 1950s, and the first one to ever formally address Japan's imperialist past. While he had a short term of office, that is common for Japanese prime ministers and also I decided to include him over Morihiro Hosokawa for the time being as he seems ultimately more impactful and better remembered.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 20:59, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Mohammad-Javad Bahonar  5 for Hassan Nasrallah

A guy who was prime minister for not even a month vs the just killed long-time leader of Hezbollah  5

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 23:02, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12:55, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:19, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
4. Support add, prefer moving Bahonar to Rebel / Activist instead of removing? He may not have been prime-minister long, but he had a major part in organizing the revolution prior to that. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Carlos Camacho  5 for Guy Verhofstadt

First elected governor of Guam is reasonably important on a local level, but he was only in power for 5.5 years total and Guam isn't even an independent country, and only has a population of ~170k. There are much more populous US states we have no politicians from.

As for Guy Verhofstadt, we have no post-WW2 prime ministers from Belgium for some reason (only monarchs) despite it being an influential European country, and he is possibly one of the most internationally influential ones, and is now one of the biggest figures in the administration of the European Union.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 23:02, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Support --Thi (talk) 12:56, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Ólafur Ragnar Grímsson  5 for Davíð Oddsson

Of the three Icelandic figures listed, all are presidents, which isn't the actual head of government, as opposed to the prime minister. Both of the others have pretty good claims to vitality despite Iceland's low population, with Sveinn Björnsson  5 being the first president, and Vigdís Finnbogadóttir  5 the first elected female president in the world. Ólafur doesn't really have much other than serving a long time. Davíð Oddsson, the longest serving PM, makes a lot more sense as someone who was largely responsible for Iceland's neoliberal reforms, which later contributed to the Icelandic financial crisis.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 23:02, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:08, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Lu Wei (politician)  5 for Wang Huning

Some guy who seems to be mostly well-known for being convicted of corruption vs the "Grey Eminence of the CCP"

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 23:02, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Really good find, Wang is (probably?) one of the leading theorists in the Chinese government and his America Against America also arguably makes him the 21st-century, Chinese equivalent to de Tocqueville. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap John Swan (Bermudian politician)  5 for Nayib Bukele

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Premier (albeit for a long time) of a non-independent overseas territory with a population of ~60k vs one of the most notorious leaders of Central America today

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 23:02, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Swap Viktor Zubkov  5 for Sergey Lavrov

A Putin loyalist who filled the office of Prime Minister (which is not the most powerful position in Russia) for a short length of time vs the "the longest-serving foreign minister since the Tsarist era" (20 years). ALso notorious for his role in the Russo-Ukrainian War  5.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 23:02, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Support; Lavrov has been a household in Russian diplomacy during the Putin era. Idiosincrático (talk) 21:04, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
3. --Thi (talk) 15:59, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
4. Support swap but consider moving Zubkov to Misc -> Businesspeople? I wanted to skim the Zubkov article first, and his official political career is definitely less notable than Lavrov's. Chairman of Gazprom for over 15 years isn't small potatoes either though. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Matsutarō Shōriki  5 for Kakuei Tanaka

I'm not sure why Shoriki is listed, his political importance seems to be in becoming the first chairman of the Japanese Atomic Energy Commission, but it seems his business activities are of more importance, but he isn't listed there, and they don't really seem important on an international level (outside of Japan) to list, even if he was relatively influential. Tanaka, OTOH, outside of being prime minister of Japan for 2.5 years, was for a longtime one of the most influyential figures of the Liberal Democratic Party (Japan)  5, Japan's dominant political party, nicknamed the "shadow shogun".

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 20:20, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Mixed

1. Support adding Tanaka, move Shōriki to Businesspeople. I'm not that familiar with specific individuals in Japanese politics, but Tanaka seems pretty notable. Shōriki's business activities seem really notable though, especially the media empire that includes NTV. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Swap Chantharath  5 for Lê Duẩn

Chantharath was the king of a little-known Thai vassal state in South East Asia during the 19th century, and his article is a stub with no indication of lasting influence. Lê Duẩn was one of the most important political figures in post-colonial Vietnam, being the successor to Ho Chi Minh  4 and the first leader of a unified Vietnam after the end of the Vietnam War  4.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 20:20, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Definitely. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Hans Geiger

"He is best known as the co-inventor of the detector component of the Geiger counter and for the Geiger–Marsden experiment which discovered the atomic nucleus".

Support

1. As nominator. To physicists. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:07, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Notable omission Aurangzebra (talk) 22:50, 4 October 2024 (UTC)
3. Iostn (talk) 20:19, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
4. Support, even if the Scientist section is a bit heavy on Physicists. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
5. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:23, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands for Mark Rutte

It would make more sense as the Dutch government website states that "in the Netherlands the powers of the monarch are extremely limited". Sahaib (talk) 15:19, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Support

Oppose

1. Oppose swap (but support add); Willem-Alexander is still notable as a figurehead and we have Elizabeth II  4 as VA4. In general though the politician/leader section, at least for contemporary figures, is overall very lacking and Mark Rutte, the longest-serving Dutch Prime Minister, should definitely be listed. Iostn (talk) 18:17, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

Add yoga teachers

Yoga teachers are currently a major omission. I suggest we could add these to Miscellaneous/Health and fitness, if they get enought support. Miscellaneous is under-quota, so we could add more than one of these.

Add K. Pattabhi Jois

Developer of ashtanga yoga. Along with Iyengar, one of the most instrumental people establishing modern yoga as exercise.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:01, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Support, good point about Miscellaneous being under quota. I say, "brainstorming is welcome." -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Add Yogi Bhajan

Introduced kundalini yoga to the West. Also a influential spiritual teacher and entrepreneur.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:01, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Support, good point about Miscellaneous being under quota. I say, "brainstorming is welcome." -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Add Bikram Choudhury

Controversial Indian-American yoga teacher, the inventor of hot yoga.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:01, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Support, good point about Miscellaneous being under quota. I say, "brainstorming is welcome." -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Musician removals

Remove Bai Hong  5, Gong Qiuxia  5, Wu Yingyin  5, and Yao Lee  5

Located in Popular music > Non-English language popular music > Chinese languages (Mandarin, Cantonese and Taiwanese). All 1930s-40s Chinese popular music singers that were part of the Seven Great Singing Stars; all seven are currently VA which is pretty unnecessary and a few of the lesser remembered singers can be removed.

Support

1. As nom. B3251_(talk) 22:53, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Remove Teng Yu-hsien  5 from Music producers, songwriters and businesspeople

Prominent in Taiwanese folk music. This, however, is very niche and his influence seems to be minimal outside of Taiwan.

Support

1. As nom. B3251_(talk) 22:53, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Add dieting figures

Some well-known people related to dieting and healthy eating are missing from the list. Add to section Miscellaneous/Health and fitness.

Add William Banting

First person to "popularise a weight loss diet based on limiting the intake of carbohydrates" like starch and sugar. His influence is evident that his name became a verb to mean losing weight, which still exists in Swedish.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Weak support, but good point about Miscellaneous being under quota. I say, "brainstorming is welcome." -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Michio Kushi

Introduced the macrobiotic diet to the West.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Support, good point about Miscellaneous being under quota. I say, "brainstorming is welcome." -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Walter Willett

Known for promoting the Mediterranean diet. The article cites The Boston Globe that he is "world's most influential nutritionist".

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Support, good point about Miscellaneous being under quota. I say, "brainstorming is welcome." -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Ann Wigmore

First to introudce the idea of a raw food diet in the US.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Currently only in 4 other languages. Sahaib (talk) 23:13, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Remove Donald Barthelme

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The Writers page is still well over the quota, so some cuts are needed. Only a few of his works have articles, and none of those articles have any interwikis. This author has no sourced claim to any major lasting influence, and he only won a few awards, which we don't list every winner of. I do not see any reason to keep him on the list.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:10, 20 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 18:48, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
3. Deferring to nom on this one, section is over quota. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 17:50, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
5. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:26, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Tanni Grey-Thompson

After seeing her featured in the BBC's Icons documentary series, I think that she is a vital Paralympian, campaigner and even a Dame. Though she is not a finalist for her category, she is in the four chosen nominees.

Support

1. As nominator. CrisBalboa1 (talk) 01:32, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Remove Thin Lizzy  5 and/or The Pogues  5

Both these bands stick out like sore thumbs in their respective groups and they feel like they were just added to hit some sort of geographical diversity quota but I'm not sure Ireland is the best representative for that (and at least in the hard rock category, we have 1 Brazilian and 3 Scandinavian bands).

Thin Lizzy is, for most intents and purposes, a "one-hit wonder" band with The Boys are Back in Town. According to Spotify, this track has almost 5x more plays over their next most popular one. Arguably their second most famous track, Whiskey in the Jar, is a cover of an Irish folk song and not even the most popular cover (that honor would go to Metallica's version which has 5x more plays on Spotify and won a Grammy). Obviously, number of streams isn't the only factor to determine notability; we include groups like Death (metal band)  5, for example, whose 800,000 monthly listeners pales in comparison to Thin Lizzy's 3.5 millions. But at least Death is a pioneer in the fairly influential death metal subgenre. Thin Lizzy isn't really a pioneer in anything, none of their commercial numbers are that impressive (no platinum certifications in Ireland, the UK, or the US across any of their studio albums), and they haven't achieved much critical success as evidenced by their album ratings on RateYourMusic. Their legacy section indicates that they were respected and influential to some of their peers but this is also the case for a wide variety of other bands we don't list.

The Pogues are an Irish punk band that seem to be even less notable than Thin Lizzy. Low Spotify streaming numbers (1.5 million listeners a month), no particularly famous tracks besides a low-tier Christmas song, no major commercial or critical success, and no legacy section on their article. Their lede states that they reinvigorated traditional Irish music but I don't think that by itself is adequate for VA5 contention.

Maybe this is American bias but I don't think these groups are that influential but maybe one of our more UK/Ireland-leaning contributors can chime in here. Either way, even within Ireland, I think there are better contenders such as The Cranberries whose 69 interwikis are almost as much as The Pogues and Thin Lizzy combined. They are also Top-Importance in Irish music and have 3 songs that have more Spotify streams than the most-streamed Thin Lizzy or The Pogues song. They were also one of the best-selling alternative acts of the 1990s globally. I would not vote to add them in but this is just an example of how Thin Lizzy/The Pogues aren't even the most influential groups within the niche of Irish rock.

As a weak swap suggestion for the Hard Rock category, I'd support Anthrax (band) who are considered one of the Big 4 of thrash metal. We list the other 3 (Metallica  5, Slayer  5, and Megadeth  5). I am also fine with this just being a removal proposal. Aurangzebra (talk) 20:22, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nom, remove both Aurangzebra (talk) 20:24, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Support a swap between The Pogues and Anthrax. Weak keep Thin Lizzy. Idiosincrático (talk) 20:53, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Support both per nom. Makkool (talk) 21:01, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
4. Support for both removals. I would rather cut a few classic rock bands from the 1970s, but there's still sysbias towards rock. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 21:10, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose Anthrax. I think they're less vital than both Thin Lizzy or The Pogues. We won't need to add them only to complete the big four of thrash metal. Makkool (talk) 21:01, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discuss

Add Charles Bronson

He's pretty much important to American Western films and one of the most recognized actors at a point. How has he not been added?

Support

1. 49p (talk) 02:12, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 08:13, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
3. I do think of Bronson as vital, but I think there is movement afoot to move the line on what constitutes an important actor. Supporting, but would like more clarification on who is being removed or recent removals. If this ends up being a close call, I would like to reconsider in light of removals.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:30, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Navin Ramgoolam

He recently won the 2024 Mauritian general election and was previously prime minister of Mauritius from 1995–2000 and 2005–2014. His father Seewoosagur Ramgoolam is currently listed as a vital article. Sahaib (talk) 14:50, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Listing nom's vote more explicitly. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Military & Revolutionary Proposals

Hi there, I don't normally participate in People proposals, but I saw the section for Military / Rebel biographies was still about 25 shy of the quota. I thought I could help brainstorm. Since we're below quota too, I'll go ahead and bundle them. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 23:00, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Add 5 Ancient Chinese Generals

I know we already have decent coverage of Ancient Chinese generals, but here are 5 more from the Warring States period. In case there's only partial support, I've applied my own ordering, but feel free to prioritize them differently:

1. Wang Jian (Qin), led the Qin army under Qin Shi Huang to unify China
2. Lian Po, successfully defended Zhao for most of the decisive Battle of Changping; the Qin influence campaign to replace him is also a notable story
3. Bai Qi, ultimately won the Battle of Changping for Qin
4. Li Mu, helped Zhao hold out successfully after its losses at Changping
5. Zhao Kuo, lost the Battle of Changping for Zhao

Support

1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 23:00, 15 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 05:16, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Makkool (talk) 18:41, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Add 3 early modern naval figures

2 of them are Ottoman, and although we already list Piri Reis and Hayreddin Barbarossa, I figure the Ottomans were around long enough to justify a couple more:

• Kemal Reis, admiral and actually uncle of Piri Reis
• Murat Reis the Elder, another admiral
• Pier Gerlofs Donia (a.k.a. Grutte Pier), Dutch (Frisian) rebel / pirate against the Habsburgs

Support

1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:22, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 18:41, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Support Pier Gerlofs Donia Iostn (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Add 3 relevant to the early Mughals

All 3 would be in the Early Modern period:

• Mustafa Rumi, Ottoman advisor to Babur who helped introduce musketeers to the Mughal army
• Ustad Ali Quli, another Ottoman advisor to Babur who helped modernize Mughal artillery
• Pir Roshan, Pashtun sufi leader that started a long resistance to Mughal influence

Support

1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:22, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 18:41, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Support Pir Roshan only Iostn (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose Ustad Ali Quli and Mustafa Rumi, stubs with low pageviews and interwikis (zero in the case of the former) Iostn (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

   That's fair, and that neither even has a Turkish interwiki is a negative in my mind. That said, since we're still under quota in this section, do you think you'd be willing to give these a chance for now just to see if anyone can expand them? There are citations, their historical influence is noteworthy, and they give us good non-Western and pre-1800s coverage. I normally don't discuss votes, but while I won't rehash my comments above, I don't like the idea of deciding just on current metrics; they can sift out a lot of chaff, but sometimes they just reflect a lack of interest to date (by readers or editors). -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Add 2 pre-modern assassins

These both can help fill out some older time periods, and both actually have pop-culture connections too:

• Jing Ke, ancient, attempted to assassinate Qin Shi Huang at the close of the Chinese Warring States period; actually the basis of the movie Hero with Jet Li
• Rashid ad-Din Sinan, medieval, probably most famous leader of the Syrian Hashashin. Also a political or religious leader, but technically still under the leadership in Alamut, and should work as Military too. Along with Hassan-i Sabbah, arguably the most associated with the nickname "Old Man of the Mountain", and the basis for some of the Assassin's Creed video game.

Support

1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 18:27, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 14:00, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Support, but these belong under Wikipedia:Vital_articles/Level/5/People/Miscellaneous#Assassination instead. Iostn (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

   Agree completely about Jing Ke if assassins are now under Miscellaneous. I honestly wasn't sure about ad-Din Sinan though because he's a capital "A" assassin. It seemed fitting to list them together, but while the Hashashin were notorious for assassinations, they did have a long-lasting state with population and an economy. So if not here, maybe he belongs more under either Religious or Political figures? -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Add 3 Irish republicans

All 20th century and political figures too, but they served as military Chiefs of Staff for the IRA at significant points or over long periods of time. I guess they could all go under Rebels or Military figures:

• Richard Mulcahy, fought in the Easter Rising, second-in-command under Michael Collins, and later Minister of Defence for the pro-Treaty government in the Irish Civil War.
• Moss Twomey, longest-serving Chief of Staff for the IRA in the 1920s and 30s after its first split from the Irish government.
• Cathal Goulding, long involvement with reviving the IRA after WWII, served as Chief of Staff for most of the 1960s, and a major influence in shifting political alignments of the IRA and associated parties.

Support

1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 18:27, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 14:00, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Moss Twomey is not in any other languages, neutral on the other two. Sahaib (talk) 20:22, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Oppose Moss Twomey and Cathal Goulding (also note the latter led the Official IRA, the less active IRA splinter during the Troubles) Iostn (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

   Just to add some context, you're right that Goulding's faction largely sat out the Troubles and therefore isn't as notable. It seems like Goulding was important to reviving the IRA before that split too though. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Add 3 Korean commanders

Funny enough, while we list American and Chinese generals, we don't list any Chiefs of Staff for Korean forces on either side of the Korean war. It looks like the following 3 are all good candidates:

• Chung Il-kwon, appointed right after the start of the war, helped regroup the South Koreans and also would have helped coordinate the Battle of Inchon.
• Paik Sun-yup, another successful South Korean general and appointed Chief of Staff for the last part of the Korean War.
• Choe Yong-gon (official), overall commander of North Korean forces for the duration of the Korean War.

Support

1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 18:27, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 14:00, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Add 3 for the Bangladesh Liberation War

We list others as leaders, but we currently don't include:

• Sam Manekshaw, Chief of Staff for the Indian Army and responsible for the overall strategy behind Indian victory.
• Tikka Khan, actual Pakistani theater commander and governor in Bangladesh, significantly responsible for Operation Searchlight.
• K. M. Shafiullah, sector commander (including the capital city of Dhaka) during the war and appointed to Army Chief of Staff for the new military shortly after independence.

Support

1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:03, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 14:00, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Decline

Add 3 from the Iran-Iraq War

Last batch, but this should bring the section to about 900:

• Adnan Khayr Allah, Iraqi Minister of Defence throughout the Iran-Iraq War.
• Mohsen Rezaee, also a politician, but commanded the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (Pasdaran) for most of the war; also arguably its first regular commander and organized it into a genuine military force.
• Ali Sayad Shirazi, commander of Iran's conventional ground army (Artesh) for most of the war.

Support

1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:03, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 14:00, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Decline

1. Adnan Khayr Allah, a ssomeone who is most well-knwon as a Minister of Defence (i.e. a cabinet member) would normally go under politicians, in fact Mohsen Rezaee might also belong there as someone who is seemingly more well-known as a political candidate Iostn (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

   I agree both are kind of borderline, but the way I see it, even if he's in a cabinet-style organization and didn't start out as a soldier, Khayrallah is primarily known for commanding a military. Razaee is arguably even more borderline, but I think he's still known more for his military accomplishments than bureaucratic ones, plus he started his career as a rebel. And in elections, I think he mostly appeals to conservatives or Realpolitik voters, again because of his military accomplishments. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Add Matt Drudge

Related to the Clinton-Lewinsky scandal, we don't yet list Matt Drudge, who founded the site Drudge Report, where the news of the scandal first broke out. I propose to swap Dowd with him. Drudge is a pioneer in web journalism, mentored Andrew Breitbart of breitbart.com and influenced conservative alternative news media on the Internet. Add to Web journalists under Writers and journalists.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 18:40, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Drudge Report is not vital, so the book is still out on this guy.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:35, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

Add Henri Fayol

19th-century French management theorist best known for developing a systematic approach to administration. He's regarded as one of the two founders of Scientific management  5 along with Frederick Winslow Taylor  5.

Support

1. As nom. To Social scientists ---> Business theorists. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:50, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Support, Social scientists is still under quota, and this is probably the sort of topic Lv 5 is perfect for (a bit niche but still notable). -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Ralph Gonsalves

Per the article, he is currently the longest-serving democratically-elected state leader having been prime minister of Saint Vincent and the Grenadines since 2001. He has also twice served as chairman of the Caribbean Community. Sahaib (talk) 22:42, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Added for nom Sahaib. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Aulus Cornelius Cossus  5

Apparently notable for receiving the Spolia opima (a rare military honour from the early Roman period), but this was while Rome was still comparatively small, and there isn't much pointing to him being that well-remembered.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 16:45, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Weak oppose. I could see deciding he's not vital down the road, but with Military figures still hanging below quota (and no plans to adjust the quota yet), I would rather defer until we have a full section to compare against. I'm not a Classicist either, but he may actually be a big deal to Roman history buffs; I think a lot of the Early Republican history gets glossed over in pop culture today, especially compared to the Early Empire. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Jensen Huang

According to Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Archive 6, on May 23, this article had 3 support and 1 oppose. As I stated on February 6 when I nominated this, I think he is instrumental for leading the artificial intelligence charge and continue to believe Nvidia  5 will be the first company to achieve a $5 trillion valuation.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:08, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Nom -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:08, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Support, and I'm actually pretty skeptical of the recent "AI moment". But we're still under-quota for businesspeople, he and Nvidia have clearly made a ton of money, and whatever happens with the current AI boom / bubble, financial historians will probably be talking about him a long time from now. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:30, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
4. Of course. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 21:05, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
5. Supporting while I doubt the impact AI will have but under his leadership Nvidia has been doing great Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 08:21, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add several cartographers to the section "Human geographers and cartographers"

Add Mark Monmonier

Mark Monmonier is a very influential modern cartographer and author of the book How to Lie with Maps. His career has focused on addressing map literacy among the general population.

Support

1. As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:49, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
2. I haven't checked, but I imagine cartography is under-represented. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Kevinishere15 (talk) 19:04, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Bernhardus Varenius

Wrote Geographia Generalis, which is widely regarded as the division between classical and modern geography.

Support

1. As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:49, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
2. I haven't checked, but I imagine cartography is under-represented. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Kevinishere15 (talk) 19:04, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Mei-Po Kwan

Major contributions to geography and cartography, one of the most influential geographers alive, h-index of 93

Support

1. As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:49, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
2. I haven't checked, but I imagine cartography is under-represented. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Kevinishere15 (talk) 19:04, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add George F. Jenks

One of the major geographers/cartographers of the 20th century. His influence was largely focused on the transition from traditional to computer cartography. Full disclosure, this is one of the articles I originated.

Support

1. As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:49, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
2. I haven't checked, but I imagine cartography is under-represented. I don't like using interwikis as a major criteria either. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Not in any other languages. Sahaib (talk) 08:49, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Per Sahaib. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:02, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Per above. We might not need so many modern cartographers. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discuss

Add Arthur Getis

Like Jenks, Getis is one of the highly influential 20th/21st century geographers. One of the "space cadets," his most famous contribution was likely the "Getis–Ord statistics" that allow Hot Spot maps. Full disclousre, this is another article I originate.

Support

1. As nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:49, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
2. I haven't checked, but I imagine cartography is under-represented. I don't like using interwikis as a major criteria either. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Not in any other languages. Sahaib (talk) 08:49, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Per Sahaib. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:02, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Per above. We might not need so many modern cartographers. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discuss

GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:49, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Remove Tim Burstall  5

Australian film director, that doesn't seem especially vital. Only 2 languages, and low view count.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 00:01, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 00:18, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:02, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:52, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Bernardino de Sahagún

A Spanish Franciscan friar who is highly regarded as a pioneer of ethnography and anthropology. He was one of the first Europeans to scholarly document and write about pre-Columbian civilizations, most notably in the Florentine Codex.

Support

1. As nom. To anthropologists. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:50, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Strong support, good find. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Move Warren Beatty  5 from Directors, producers and screenwriters to Actors film

Beatty has directed five films (one of them co-directed) his acting credited are much more extensive.

Support

1. As nom Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 18:54, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 18:56, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 01:20, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. As an actor, he is not as notable as the discussed tightened standards would require, IMO.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:34, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Add cinematographers

Currently we lack many prominent cinematographers. I propose the following for consideration. All wouldn't need to get in. About 10 vital cinematographers is probably enough. (Sven Nykvist from Sweden and Gregg Toland and Vilmos Zsigmond from the US are already listed).

Add Roger Deakins

From the UK. 16 Academy Award nominations and 2 wins, known for being technically innovative.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Emmanuel Lubezki

From Mexico. Known for a ground-breaking style. 8 Academy Award nominations and only one to win in three consecutive years.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Kazuo Miyagawa

From Japan. Highly influential pioneering cinematographer, worked in Rashomon with Kurosawa.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Vittorio Storaro  5

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

From Italy. One of the most influential cinematographers. Worked in Apocalypse Now. Also 3 Academy Award wins.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 20:05, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 07:25, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Kevinishere15 (talk) 19:03, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Raoul Coutard

From France. Crucial to the French New Wave movement with his hand-held documentary style.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Gabriel Figueroa

From Mexico. Hasn't worked in extensively Hollywood unlike Lubezki, but considered one of the most important to Mexican cinema.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Subrata Mitra

From India. Considered one of the greatest cinematographers of India, and a pioneer. Worked on Pather Panchali.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Christopher Doyle

From Australia, but worked in Hong Kong cinema extensively. Behind the distinctive visual style of Wong Kar-Wai's films.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add João Lourenço

Angola has a population of about 37 million and so the president should probably be listed.

Support

1. As nom. Sahaib (talk) 21:58, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Seems important enough. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:51, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Remove some sports journalists and commentators

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

As previously said: Writers and journalists are over quota. These people have pretty low pageviews and interwikis, and none of the articles assert much vitality

• Peter Gammons
• Jim Nantz
• Peter FitzSimons
• Jacqui Oatley
• Jim Rome
• Bert Sugar
• Sid Waddell
• Ray Warren

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 02:57, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Just so long as you keep Grantland Rice at VA5 _pbp 06:43, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
3. I would be fine with no sports stuff, as I don't consider these things to be vital at all, so definitly agree. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 03:14, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
4. None of these seem vital. Kevinishere15 (talk) 19:03, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
5. Agree, I can see having a handful of sportscasters for some coverage, but we probably don't need 34. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Manco Cápac

The legendary founder and first governor of the Incas. His existence has not been corroborated, but it's comparable to some politicians such as Romulus  5 and Lycurgus  4. He is a major character in Incan mythology as well.

Support

1. As nominator. To politicians. I am also open to adding him to Mythological figures. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:22, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Strong support, also agree with placing in Leaders if that's the precedent for Greece & Rome. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Yoon Suk Yeol

Probably vital enough now to be listed. Sahaib (talk) 20:37, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

To clarify for the peanut gallery, dude's been President of South Korea for two years and failed in a martial law attempt _pbp 00:57, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. Sahaib (talk) 18:05, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Yeah, this guy has had enough of an impact by now. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:08, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Iostn (talk) 20:38, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Makes sense. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:50, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Review of the Literature - East Europe - Modern; using interwiki number criteria and national quotas

Basic overview

East Europe:

• 22 countries
• 63 persons in actual list (33 prose, 23 poetry, 5 drama, 2 journalism)

Determination of indicative national quotas

List of countries by gross domestic product in purchasing power parity (2024):

• 1/ Poland (1,890,000) = 27,5 % of GDP (PPP) of East Europe = 17 persons in list of 63 (now 18)
• 2/ Romania (894,220) = 13 % = 8 persons (now 4)
• 3/ Ukraine (655,580) = 9,5 % = 6 persons (now 2)
• 4/ Czechia (619,880) = 9 % = 6 persons (now 7)
• 5/ Hungary (448,460) = 6,5 % = 4 persons (now 11)
• 6/ Greece (436,757) = 6,4 % = 4 persons (now 5)
• 7/ Belarus (293,140) = 4,3 % = 3 persons (now 3)
• 8/ Bulgaria (248,910) = 3,6 % = 2 persons (now 4)
• 9/ Slovakia (247,540) = 3,6 % = 2 persons (now 0)
• 10/ Serbia (191,560) = 2,8 % = 2 persons (now 1)
• 11/ Croatia (187,190) = 2,7 % = 2 persons (now 0)
• 12/ Lithuania (154,620) = 2,3 % = 1 person (now 0)
• 13/ Slovenia (117,990) = 1,7 % = 1 person (now 7)
• 14/ Latvia (81,800) = 1,2 % = 1 person (now 0)
• 15/ Bosnia and Herzegovina (74,280) = 1 % = 1 person (now 0)
• 16/ Estonia (65,540) = 1 % = 1 person (now 0)
• 17/ Albania (58,200) = 0,8 % = 1 person (now 1)
• 18/ Cyprus (55,140) = 0,8 % = 1 person (now 0)
• 19/ North Macedonia (49,300) = 0,7 % = under 1 (now 0)
• 20/ Moldova (45,410) = 0,7 % = under 1 (now 0)
• 21/ Kosovo (29,719) = 0,4 % = under 1 (now 0)
• 22/ Montenegro (20,180) = 0,3 % = under 1 (now 0)

(Total GDP (PPP): 6 865 416)

For balance: List of countries by Human Development Index (more cultural criterion) (2022)

• 1/ Slovenia (0.926) = bonus 2 persons
• 2/ Cyprus (0.907) = 2
• 3/ Estonia (0.899) = 2
• 4/ Czechia (0.895) = 2
• 5/ Greece (0.893) = 2

-

• 6/ Poland (0.881) = 0
• 7) Latvia (0.879) = 0
• 8) Lithuania (0.879) = 0
• 9) Croatia (0.878) = 0
• 10) Slovakia (0.855) = 0

-

• 11) Hungary (0.851) = -1
• 12) Montenegro (0.844) = -1
• 13) Romania (0.827) = -1
• 14) Serbia (0.805) = -1
• 15) Belarus (0.801) = -1

-

• 16) Bulgaria (0.799) = -2
• 17) Albania (0.789) = -2
• 18) Bosnia (0.779) = -2
• 19) North Macedonia (0.765) = -2
• 20) Moldova (0.763) = -2
• 21) Ukraine (0.734) = -2
• 22) Kosovo - (not in HDI index 2022)

Persons by country - synthesis GDP HDI

• 1/ Poland 17 0 = 17 persons (now 18)
• 2/ Romania 8-1 = 7 persons (now 4)
• 3/ Ukraine 6-2 = 4 persons (now 2)
• 4/ Czechia 6 2 = 8 persons (now 7)
• 5/ Hungary 4-1 = 3 persons (now 11)
• 6/ Greece 4 2 = 6 persons (now 5)
• 7/ Belarus 3-1 = 2 persons (now 3)
• 8/ Bulgaria 2-2 = 0 persons (now 4)
• 9/ Slovakia 2 0 = 2 persons (now 0)
• 10/ Serbia 2-1 = 1 person (now 1)
• 11/ Croatia 2 0 = 2 persons (now 0)
• 12/ Lithuania 1 0 = 1 person (now 0)
• 13/ Slovenia 1 2 = 3 persons (now 7)
• 14/ Latvia 1 0 = 1 person (now 0)
• 15/ Bosnia and Herzegovina 1-2 = 0 person (now 0)
• 16/ Estonia 1 2 = 3 persons (now 0)
• 17/ Albania 1-2 = 0 person (now 1)
• 18/ Cyprus 1 2 = 3 persons (now 0)
• 19/ North Macedonia 0 (now 0)
• 20/ Moldova 0 (now 0)
• 21/ Kosovo 0 (now 0)
• 22/ Montenegro 0 (now 0)

Total 63

Now unification by language aspekt (Moldova Romania = romanian language, Kosovo Albania = albanian language, Cyprus Greece = greek language; question of montengrian and macedonian language is politically sensitive issue, so not merge)

Final ranking:

• Poland - 17 (now 18)
• Greece - 9 (now 5)
• Czechia - 8 (now 7)
• Romania - 7 (now 4)
• Ukraine - 4 (now 2)
• Hungary - 3 (now 11)
• Slovenia - 3 (now 7)
• Estonia - 3 (now 0)
• Belarus - 2 (now 3)
• Slovakia - 2 (now 0)
• Croatia - 2 (now 0)
• Serbia - 1 (now 1)
• Lithuania - 1 (now 0)
• Latvia - 1 (now 0)
• Albania - 0 (now 1)
• Bulgaria - 0 (now 4)
• Bosnia, Macedonia, Montenegro 0-0 (They will soon pass the interwiki analysis)

This order does not mean that the quota must be followed exactly, only that we will want to get closer to it if the "interwiki analysis" allows.

Balance with interwiki criterion (by country)

Poland 17 (now 18)

Now in list (by interwiki):

• 1/ Wisława Szymborska - 100 (poe)
• 2/ Henryk Sienkiewicz - 98
• 3/ Czesław Miłosz - 98 (poe)
• 4/ Adam Mickiewicz - 90 (poe)
• 5/ Joseph Conrad - 87
• 6/ Władysław Reymont - 85
• 7/ Olga Tokarczuk - 80
• 8/ Stanisław Lem - 77
• 9/ Andrzej Sapkowski - 52
• 10/ Ryszard Kapuściński - 46 (jour)
• 11/ Bruno Schulz - 45
• 12/ Bolesław Prus - 44
• 13/ Juliusz Słowacki - 44 (poe)
• 14/ Sławomir Mrożek - 39
• 15/ Jerzy Andrzejewski - 27
• 16/ Józef Ignacy Kraszewski - 27
• 17/ Cyprian Norwid - 27 (poe)
• 18/ Stanisława Przybyszewska - 9 (dram)

Not in list:

• Janusz Korczak - 54
• Witold Gombrowicz - 49
• Maria Konopnicka - 39
• Stanisław Ignacy Witkiewicz - 37 (dram)
• Maria Dąbrowska - 36
• Julian Tuwim - 36 (poe)
• Stefan Żeromski - 35 (dram)
• Tadeusz Różewicz - 35 (dram)
• Zygmunt Krasiński - 35 (poe)
• Zbigniew Herbert - 34
• Eliza Orzeszkowa - 33
• Adam Zagajewski - 33 (poe)
• Leszek Engelking - 33 (poe)
• Jan Potocki - 29
• Ignacy Krasicki - 28 (poe)
• Stanisław Jerzy Lec - 28
• Tadeusz Konwicki - 28

Suggestions

• Stanisława Przybyszewska - 9 (dram) - discarded without compensation
• Cyprian Norwid - 27 (poe) - replaced with Janusz Korczak - 54
• Józef Ignacy Kraszewski - 27 - replaced with Witold Gombrowicz - 49
• Jerzy Andrzejewski - 27 - replaced with Maria Konopnicka - 39
• candidate for possible quota increase in third scrutinium: Stanisław Ignacy Witkiewicz - 37

Greece - 9 (now 5)

Now in list (by interwiki):

• 1/ Giorgos Seferis - 82 (poe)
• 2/ Odysseas Elytis - 75
• 3/ Nikos Kazantzakis - 58
• 4/ Constantine P. Cavafy - 53 (poe)
• 5/ Alki Zei - 20

Not in list:

• Yiannis Ritsos - 41 (poe)
• Rigas Feraios - 36 (poe)
• Dionysios Solomos - 29 (poe)
• Kostis Palamas - 28 (poe)
• Angelos Sikelianos - 23 (poe)
• Alexandros Papadiamantis - 23
• Dimitris Lyacos - 23

Suggestions

• Yiannis Ritsos - 41 (poe) - added as new
• Rigas Feraios - 36 (poe) - added as new
• Dionysios Solomos - 29 (poe) - added as new
• Kostis Palamas - 28 (poe) - added as new
• Alki Zei - 20 - replaced with Alexandros Papadiamantis - 23

Czechia - 8 (now 7)

Now in list (by interwiki):

• 1/ Milan Kundera - 82
• 2/ Jaroslav Seifert - 82
• 3/ Karel Čapek - 77 (dram)
• 4/ Jaroslav Hašek - 68
• 5/ Bohumil Hrabal - 47
• 6/ Jan Neruda - 47 (poe)
• 7/ Božena Němcová - 45

Not in list:

• Vítězslav Nezval - 32 (poe)
• Pavel Kohout - 32 (dra)
• Alois Jirásek - 30
• Karel Hynek Mácha - 29 (poe)
• Josef Škvorecký - 28
• Karel Jaromír Erben - 28 (poe)

Suggestions:

• Vítězslav Nezval - 32 (poe) - added as new

Romania - 7 (now 4)

Now in list (by interwiki):

• 1/ Elie Wiesel - 79
• 2/ Eugène Ionesco - 76 (dram)
• 3/ Tristan Tzara - 66 (poe)
• 4/ Mateiu Caragiale - 12 (poe)

Not in list:

• Mihai Eminescu - 67 (poe) (also represents Moldova)
• Paul Celan - 49
• Dimitrie Cantemir - 42 (also represents Moldova)
• Ion Luca Caragiale - 37 (dram)
• Ana Blandiana - 33 (poe)
• Panait Istrati - 32
• Ion Creangă - 30 (also represents Moldova)
• Vasile Alecsandri - 30
• Tudor Arghezi - 28

Suggestions:

• Mateiu Caragiale - 12 (poe) - replaced with Mihai Eminescu - 67 (poe)
• Paul Celan - 49 - added as new
• Dimitrie Cantemir - 42 - added as new
• Ion Luca Caragiale - 37 (dram) - added as new

Ukraine - 4 (now 2)

Now in list (by interwiki):

• 1/ Taras Shevchenko - 102 (poe)
• 2/ Sholem Aleichem - 46

Not in list:

• Lesya Ukrainka - 75 (poe)
• Ivan Franko - 66 (poe)
• Lina Kostenko - 43 (poe)
• Ivan Kotliarevsky - 38 (poe)
• Oksana Zabuzhko - 37
• Andrey Kurkov - 35
• Serhiy Zhadan - 35 (poe)
• Marko Vovchok - 29
• Pavlo Tychyna - 29 (poe)
• Vasyl Stus - 28 (poe)
• Mykhailo Kotsiubynsky - 28
• Yurii Andrukhovych - 28

Suggestions:

• Lesya Ukrainka - 75 (poe) - added as new
• Ivan Franko - 66 (poe) - added as new
• candidate for possible quota increase: Lina Kostenko - 43 (poe)

Hungary - 3 (now 11)

Now in list (by interwiki):

• 1/ Imre Kertész - 89
• 2/ Sándor Petőfi - 64 (poe)
• 3/ Endre Ady - 43 (poe)
• 4/ Attila József - 39 (poe)
• 5/ Ferenc Molnár - 36 (dram)
• 6/ László Krasznahorkai - 35
• 7/ Magda Szabó - 32
• 8/ Mór Jókai - 32
• 9/ Géza Gárdonyi - 29
• 10/ József Katona - 22 (poe)
• 11/ István Fekete - 19

Not in list:

• Sándor Márai - 43
• János Arany - 36 (poe)
• Péter Esterházy - 36
• Mihály Babits - 33
• Dezső Kosztolányi - 33 (poe)

Suggestions:

• Ferenc Molnár - 36 (dram) - discarded without compensation
• László Krasznahorkai - 35 - discarded without compensation
• Magda Szabó - 32 - discarded without compensation
• Mór Jókai - 32 - discarded without compensation
• Géza Gárdonyi - 29 - discarded without compensation
• József Katona - 22 (poe) - discarded without compensation
• István Fekete - 19 - discarded without compensation
• candidate for possible quota increase: Sándor Márai - 43
• candidate for possible quota increase: Attila József - 39 (poe)

Slovenia 3 (now 7)

Now in list (by interwiki):

• 1/ France Prešeren - 64 (poe)
• 2/ Ivan Cankar - 41
• 3/ Edvard Kocbek - 25 (poe)
• 4/ Srečko Kosovel - 22 (poe)
• 5/ Oton Župančič - 20 (poe)
• 6/ Dragotin Kette - 12 (poe)
• 7/ Josip Murn - 12 (poe)

Not in list:

• Vladimir Bartol - 34
• Boris Pahor - 33
• Drago Jančar - 29
• Alma Karlin - 27
• Tomaž Šalamun - 25

Suggestions:

• Edvard Kocbek - 25 (poe) - replaced with Vladimir Bartol - 34
• Srečko Kosovel - 22 (poe) - discarded without compensation
• Oton Župančič - 20 (poe) - discarded without compensation
• Dragotin Kette - 12 (poe) - discarded without compensation
• Josip Murn - 12 (poe) - discarded without compensation
• candidate for possible quota increase: Boris Pahor - 33

Estonia 3 (now 0)

Now in list (by interwiki):

-

Not in list:

• Marie Under - 43 (poe)
• Lydia Koidula - 41 (poe)
• Friedrich Reinhold Kreutzwald - 41 (poe)
• Anton Hansen Tammsaare - 36
• Betti Alver - 35 (poe)
• Jaan Kross - 33
• Jaan Kaplinski - 30 (poe)

Suggestions:

• Marie Under - 43 (poe) - added as new
• Lydia Koidula - 41 (poe) - added as new
• Friedrich Reinhold Kreutzwald - 41 (poe) - added as new
• candidate for possible quota increase: Anton Hansen Tammsaare - 36

Belarus 2 (now 3)

Now in list (by interwiki):

• 1/ Svetlana Alexievich - 96 (jour)
• 2/ Vasil Bykaŭ - 37
• 3/ Mendele Mocher Sforim - 26

Not in list:

• Yanka Kupala - 82
• Yakub Kolas - 69
• Maksim Bahdanovič - 28
• Uladzimir Karatkievich - 27
• Natallia Arsiennieva - 26

Suggestions:

• Vasil Bykaŭ - 37 - replaced with Yanka Kupala - 82
• Mendele Mocher Sforim - 26 - discarded without compensation
• candidate for possible quota increase: Yakub Kolas - 69

Slovakia 2 (now 0)

Now in list (by interwiki):

-

Not in list:

• Ľudovít Štúr (jour) - 42
• Ján Kollár - 40
• Pavel Jozef Šafárik - 34
• Pavol Országh Hviezdoslav - 20
• Jozef Miloslav Hurban - 20

Suggestions:

• Ľudovít Štúr - 42 - added as new
• Ján Kollár - 40 - added as new
• candidate for possible quota increase: Pavel Jozef Šafárik - 34

Croatia 2 (now 0)

Now in list (by interwiki):

-

Not in list:

• Dubravka Ugrešić - 40
• Ivana Brlić-Mažuranić - 38
• Miroslav Krleža - 36
• Slavenka Drakulić - 31
• Tin Ujević - 27

Suggestions:

• Dubravka Ugrešić - 40 - added as new
• Ivana Brlić-Mažuranić - 38 - added as new
• candidate for possible quota increase: Miroslav Krleža - 36

Serbia 1 (now 1)

Now in list (by interwiki):

• Ivo Andrić - 88 (also represents Bosnia)

Not in list:

• Radoje Domanović - 63
• Milorad Pavić - 43
• Branislav Nušić - 41 (dram)
• Danilo Kiš - 40
• Isidora Sekulić - 30
• Meša Selimović - 30 (also represents Bosnia)

Suggestions:

• candidate for possible quota increase: Radoje Domanović - 63
• candidate for possible quota increase: Milorad Pavić - 43

Lithuania 1 (now 0)

Now in list (by interwiki):

-

Not in list:

• Jonas Basanavičius (jour) - 35
• Kristijonas Donelaitis - 30
• Justinas Marcinkevičius - 29
• Vincas Kudirka - 28
• Jurga Ivanauskaitė - 27

Suggestions:

• Jonas Basanavičius - 35 (jour) - added as new

Latvia 1 (now 0)

Now in list (by interwiki):

-

Not in list:

• Rainis - 31 (poe)
• Aspazija - 29 (poe)

Suggestions:

• Rainis - 31 (poe) - added as new

Albania 0 (now 1)

Now in list:

• Ismail Kadare - 69

Not in list:

• Naim Frashëri - 41
• Sami Frashëri - 31

Suggestions:

• Ismail Kadare - 69 - second scrutinium
• candidate for possible quota increase: Naim Frashëri - 41

Bulgaria 0 (now 4)

Now in list (by interwiki):

• Ivan Vazov - 52
• Anton Donchev - 17
• Dimitar Dimov - 14
• Dimitar Talev - 12

Not in list:

• Hristo Botev - 39 (poe)
• Georgi Markov - 33
• Stanislav Stratiev - 27
• Petko Slaveykov - 26

Suggestions:

• Ivan Vazov - second scrutinium
• candidate for possible quota increase: Hristo Botev - 39 (poe)

Bosnia 0-0

Now in list:

- (represent by Ivo Andrić, in Serbia list)

Not in list:

• Meša Selimović - 30
• Petar Kočić - 28
• Jovan Dučić - 25

Suggestions:

• candidate for possible quota increase: Meša Selimović - 30

North Macedonia 0-0

Now in list:

-

Not in list:

• Lidija Dimkovska - 25
• Blaže Koneski - 20

Suggestions:

-

Montenegro 0-0

Now in list:

-

Not in list:

• Miodrag Bulatović - 23
• Mihailo Lalić - 20

Suggestions:

-

Second scrutinium

Adding to the list those authors who come from a country with zero claim but have a high individual ranking - at the expense of those with the lowest individual ranking

Suggestions:

• Alexandros Papadiamantis - 23 replaced with Ismail Kadare - 69
• Kostis Palamas - 28 (poe) replaced with Ivan Vazov - 52

List of authors after second scrutinium (by interwikis) - "national quotas model":

• 1/ Taras Shevchenko - 102 (poe)
• 2/ Wisława Szymborska - 100 (poe)
• 3/ Henryk Sienkiewicz - 98
• 4/ Czesław Miłosz - 98 (poe)
• 5/ Svetlana Alexievich - 96 (jour)
• 6/ Adam Mickiewicz - 90 (poe)
• 7/ Imre Kertész - 89
• 8/ Ivo Andrić - 88
• 9/ Joseph Conrad - 87
• 10/ Władysław Reymont - 85
• 11/ Giorgos Seferis - 82 (poe)
• 12/ Milan Kundera - 82
• 13/ Jaroslav Seifert - 82 (poe)
• 14/ Yanka Kupala - 82 (poe)
• 15/ Olga Tokarczuk - 80
• 16/ Elie Wiesel - 79
• 17/ Stanisław Lem - 77
• 18/ Karel Čapek - 77 (dram)
• 19/ Eugène Ionesco - 76 (dram)
• 20/ Odysseas Elytis - 75
• 21/ Lesya Ukrainka - 75 (poe)
• 22/ Ismail Kadare - 69
• 23/ Jaroslav Hašek - 68
• 24/ Mihai Eminescu - 67 (poe)
• 25/ Tristan Tzara - 66 (poe)
• 26/ Ivan Franko - 66 (poe)
• 27/ Sándor Petőfi - 64 (poe)
• 28/ France Prešeren - 64 (poe)
• 29/ Nikos Kazantzakis - 58
• 30/ Janusz Korczak - 54
• 31/ Constantine P. Cavafy - 53 (poe)
• 32/ Andrzej Sapkowski - 52
• 33/ Ivan Vazov - 52
• 34/ Witold Gombrowicz - 49
• 35/ Paul Celan - 49
• 36/ Bohumil Hrabal - 47
• 37/ Jan Neruda - 47 (poe)
• 38/ Ryszard Kapuściński - 46 (jour)
• 39/ Sholem Aleichem - 46
• 40/ Bruno Schulz - 45
• 41/ Božena Němcová - 45
• 42/ Bolesław Prus - 44
• 43/ Juliusz Słowacki - 44 (poe)
• 44/ Endre Ady - 43 (poe)
• 45/ Marie Under - 43 (poe)
• 46/ Dimitrie Cantemir - 42
• 47/ Ľudovít Štúr - 42 (jour)
• 48/ Yiannis Ritsos - 41 (poe)
• 49/ Ivan Cankar - 41
• 50/ Lydia Koidula - 41 (poe)
• 51/ Friedrich Reinhold Kreutzwald - 41 (poe)
• 52/ Ján Kollár - 40
• 53/ Dubravka Ugrešić - 40
• 54/ Sławomir Mrożek - 39
• 55/ Maria Konopnicka - 39
• 56/ Ivana Brlić-Mažuranić - 38
• 57/ Ion Luca Caragiale - 37 (dram)
• 58/ Rigas Feraios - 36 (poe)
• 59/ Jonas Basanavičius - 35 (jour)
• 60/ Vladimir Bartol - 34
• 61/ Vítězslav Nezval - 32 (poe)
• 62/ Rainis - 31 (poe)
• 63/ Dionysios Solomos - 29 (poe)

Third scrutinium

Candidates for third scrutinium:

• Yakub Kolas - 69
• Radoje Domanović - 63

Minimum correction:

• Dionysios Solomos - 29 (poe) replaced with Yakub Kolas - 69
• Vítězslav Nezval - 32 (poe) replaced with Radoje Domanović - 63 (not Rainis - 31, because he is the only representative of Latvia)

Fourth scrutinium

32 persons in Prose - need 33:

Rigas Feraios -36 replaced with with Sándor Márai - 43 (not Basanavičius because he is the only representative of Lithuania)

FINAL list by interwiki:

• 1/ Taras Shevchenko - 102 (poe)
• 2/ Wisława Szymborska - 100 (poe)
• 3/ Henryk Sienkiewicz - 98
• 4/ Czesław Miłosz - 98 (poe)
• 5/ Svetlana Alexievich - 96 (jour)
• 6/ Adam Mickiewicz - 90 (poe)
• 7/ Imre Kertész - 89
• 8/ Ivo Andrić - 88
• 9/ Joseph Conrad - 87
• 10/ Władysław Reymont - 85
• 11/ Giorgos Seferis - 82 (poe)
• 12/ Milan Kundera - 82
• 13/ Jaroslav Seifert - 82
• 14/ Yanka Kupala - 82
• 15/ Olga Tokarczuk - 80
• 16/ Elie Wiesel - 79
• 17/ Stanisław Lem - 77
• 18/ Karel Čapek - 77 (dram)
• 19/ Eugène Ionesco - 76 (dram)
• 20/ Odysseas Elytis - 75
• 21/ Lesya Ukrainka - 75 (poe)
• 22/ Ismail Kadare - 69
• 23/ Yakub Kolas - 69 (poe)
• 24/ Jaroslav Hašek - 68
• 25/ Mihai Eminescu - 67 (poe)
• 26/ Tristan Tzara - 66 (poe)
• 27/ Ivan Franko - 66 (poe)
• 28/ Sándor Petőfi - 64 (poe)
• 29/ France Prešeren - 64 (poe)
• 30/ Radoje Domanović - 63
• 31/ Nikos Kazantzakis - 58
• 32/ Janusz Korczak - 54
• 33/ Constantine P. Cavafy - 53 (poe)
• 34/ Andrzej Sapkowski - 52
• 35/ Ivan Vazov - 52
• 36/ Witold Gombrowicz - 49
• 37/ Paul Celan - 49 (poe)
• 38/ Bohumil Hrabal - 47
• 39/ Jan Neruda - 47 (poe)
• 40/ Ryszard Kapuściński - 46 (jour)
• 41/ Sholem Aleichem - 46
• 42/ Bruno Schulz - 45
• 43/ Božena Němcová - 45
• 44/ Bolesław Prus - 44
• 45/ Juliusz Słowacki - 44 (poe)
• 46/ Endre Ady - 43 (poe)
• 47/ Marie Under - 43 (poe)
• 48/ Sándor Márai - 43
• 49/ Dimitrie Cantemir - 42
• 50/ Ľudovít Štúr - 42 (jour)
• 51/ Yiannis Ritsos - 41 (poe)
• 52/ Ivan Cankar - 41
• 53/ Lydia Koidula - 41 (poe)
• 54/ Friedrich Reinhold Kreutzwald - 41 (poe)
• 55/ Ján Kollár - 40 (poe)
• 56/ Dubravka Ugrešić - 40
• 57/ Sławomir Mrożek - 39 (dram)
• 58/ Maria Konopnicka - 39
• 59/ Ivana Brlić-Mažuranić - 38
• 60/ Ion Luca Caragiale - 37 (dram)
• 61/ Jonas Basanavičius - 35 (jour)
• 62/ Vladimir Bartol - 34
• 63/ Rainis - 31 (poe)

FINAL LIST by genre in alphabetical order:

Prose (33)

• 1/ Sholem Aleichem - 46
• 2/ Svetlana Alexievich - 96 (transferred from journalism)
• 3/ Ivo Andrić - 88
• 4/ Vladimir Bartol - 34
• 5/ Ivana Brlić-Mažuranić - 38
• 6/ Dimitrie Cantemir - 42
• 7/ Ivan Cankar - 41
• 8/ Joseph Conrad - 87
• 9/ Radoje Domanović - 63
• 10/ Odysseas Elytis - 75
• 11/ Witold Gombrowicz - 49
• 12/ Jaroslav Hašek - 68
• 13/ Bohumil Hrabal - 47
• 14/ Ismail Kadare - 69
• 15/ Nikos Kazantzakis - 58
• 16/ Imre Kertész - 89
• 17/ Maria Konopnicka - 39
• 18/ Janusz Korczak - 54
• 19/ Milan Kundera - 82
• 20/ Yanka Kupala - 82
• 21/ Stanisław Lem - 77
• 22/ Sándor Márai - 43
• 23/ Božena Němcová - 45
• 24/ Jan Neruda - 47 (transferred from poetry)
• 25/ Bolesław Prus - 44
• 26/ Władysław Reymont - 85
• 27/ Andrzej Sapkowski - 52
• 28/ Henryk Sienkiewicz - 98
• 29/ Bruno Schulz - 45
• 30/ Olga Tokarczuk - 80
• 31/ Dubravka Ugrešić - 40
• 32/ Ivan Vazov - 52
• 33/ Elie Wiesel - 79

Poetry (23)

• 1/ Endre Ady - 43
• 2/ Constantine P. Cavafy - 53
• 3/ Paul Celan - 49
• 4/ Mihai Eminescu - 67
• 5/ Ivan Franko - 66
• 6/ Lydia Koidula - 41
• 7/ Yakub Kolas - 69
• 8/ Ján Kollár - 40
• 9/ Friedrich Reinhold Kreutzwald - 41
• 10/ Adam Mickiewicz - 90
• 11/ Czesław Miłosz - 98
• 12/ Sándor Petőfi - 64
• 13/ France Prešeren - 64
• 14/ Rainis - 31
• 15/ Yiannis Ritsos - 41
• 16/ Giorgos Seferis - 82
• 17/ Jaroslav Seifert - 82
• 18/ Taras Shevchenko - 102
• 19/ Juliusz Słowacki - 44
• 20/ Wisława Szymborska - 100
• 21/ Tristan Tzara - 66
• 22/ Lesya Ukrainka - 75
• 23/ Marie Under - 43

Drama (5)

• 1/ Karel Čapek - 77
• 2/ Ion Luca Caragiale - 37
• 3/ Eugène Ionesco - 76
• 4/ Sławomir Mrożek - 39

Journalism (2)

• 1/ Jonas Basanavičius - 35
• 2/ Ryszard Kapuściński - 46
• 3/ Ľudovít Štúr - 42

Drama and Journalism do not have a fixed local quota, so the discrepancy does not matter. If the original situation is to be fully preserved, Štúr can be moved to Politics and Branislav Nušić - 41 or Stanisław Ignacy Witkiewicz - 37 can be added to the drama.

Interesting fact: 10 women on the new list, 6 in old (actual) list - without a specific focus on greater gender equality!

Possible Fifth scrutinium

Candidates for eventual fifth scrutinium "Westerners to the west": Joseph Conrad, Elie Wiesel, Tristan Tzara (poe) and Paul Celan (poe) can be relocated to West literature and they can be replaced with:

• Lina Kostenko - 43 (poe)
• Milorad Pavić - 43
• Naim Frashëri - 41
• Hristo Botev - 39 (poe)

General discussion

Hi there, you clearly put in a lot of work gathering this data so I figure someone should respond.

First off, it looks like you're editing anonymously / via IP address, which is fine, but it does make discussion a bit harder. However you decide to continue editing, just don't forget to sign your posts on the talk pages by typing ~~~~ at the end of your comment.

More to the content of your post, I think this is some really great legwork. One issue though is that it's a lot of text and not entirely clear at first glance what the intent is. If I understand right, you're writing who you would like to see swapped in & out prior to each of the large lists? Or is it a data analysis, and if so, what are your main conclusions? Are you proposing all 5 of your "scrutinii" in parallel, or to pick from one of the 5 as an option?

The second issue, though more minor, is people will almost definitely want to discuss your reasons for making your choices (for example, why weigh by HDI or GDP instead of population?) Also, I'm probably more in a minority on this count, but I've never actually seen a solid argument that interwikis are a reliable metric for vitality, at least not proportionally. There is probably a difference between orders of interwiki links (e.g. < 10 vs. 10-100 vs. > 100), but even then, you have to account for biases, such as non-neutral editors spamming translations.

In short, I'd suggest extracting out only the changes you'd like to propose from this post, then list each small change-set separately in its own proposal. You can still refer to the criteria here, but you only need to compare the data for the relevant articles. You'll also probably want to give other reasons for your choices in case people don't find the metrics you've used compelling.

Anyways, cheers and welcome to VA Level 5. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for paying attention to my comment. My final list is just for inspiration. It seems to me that it is stronger than the one I see in Vital 5 now. I don't want to push specific names. Use my data or don't use it. I just think that if Vital 5 with its established mechanisms does not approach this list, there is a flaw in the system.

A few notes and arguments about my method: I know that the interwikis criterion is not indisputable. Sometimes it can happen that a certain author is overvalued by some "P.R. campaign". I myself have discovered and eliminated one such case (Viktor Dyk). One must be careful. On the other hand: can there really be a significant author with 4, 6, 9 interwikis? After 23 years of the Wikipedia movement? I don't believe it. And I see many such in the current Vital 5 list.

And another argument: it is much harder to P.R. or "spam" campaign to push an insignificant author onto 40 language versions of Wikipedia than onto the Vital 5 list. Even here, various fans try to push a lot of things. And it's much easier for them.

The criterion of population is implicitly included in the GDP criterion - more people create a larger product. But GDP is a little more "cultural" - a smaller nation can be more efficient than a larger one. And the HDI reinforces this cultural tuning even more. Personally, I don't like any quotas and the nationality criterion could easily be completely ignored and just try to measure the global importance of a particular individual. But it seemed to me that the tendency towards quotas prevails here, so I adapted and tried to objectify the matter somehow.

Finally, excuse my bad English. 109.81.83.249 (talk) 08:57, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Add Hall & Oates, remove Michael Bolton  5

Would go under Pop. Surprised these guys aren't already listed. 6 number one hits, 29/33 of their singles were US Top 40 hits, and they are the most successful musical duo of all time, ahead of The Carpenters  5, The Everly Brothers  5, and Simon & Garfunkel  5. All the usual accolades and more: one of the top 100 artists of all time according to VH1 and Billboard Hot 100, inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Songwriters Hall of Fame, and 7 platinum albums.

I don't feel particularly strongly about removing Michael Bolton but I do like to balance my proposals with a possible removal and Bolton is arguably the weakest contender in the same era and genre. Bolton's whole shtick of pop ballad crooning hasn't aged particularly well (seems to just be a relic of the late '80s/early '90s) and Spotify listener stats seem to indicate that none of his tracks besides How Am I Supposed to Live Without You have stood the test of time. By contrast, Hall & Oates are the 213th most-played artist on Spotify right now [3]. I won't deny he achieved commercial success during his time but there are many other artists who were even more commercially successful than him that we don't list presumably because their work hasn't achieved lasting recognition and continued success through time (e.g. Nickelback in rock). Besides 2 Grammys and a handful of American Music Awards, he hasn't achieved any critical success and his lede mentions that he has faced criticism for being derivative and also for plagiarizing work. Aurangzebra (talk) 23:21, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nom Aurangzebra (talk) 23:22, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:16, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
4. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:37, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. CopiousAmountofCannons (talk) 11:15, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Jens Stoltenberg

Prime minister of Norway for 9 years and Secretary General of NATO for 10 years.

Support

1. as nom. Sahaib (talk) 21:26, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:36, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Billy Mitchell (gamer)  5

This guy is so much of a self-promoter that I wouldn't put it past him that he wrote his name here. He is a prominent figure in gaming today, though primarily due to his litigious behavior and internet drama. Even if his records are true, I don't think we should be elevating this stuff.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:36, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Does not seem vital. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:55, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 21:23, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
4. I'm generally skeptical of listing roles like gamers, influencers. etc. so let's push this one across the finish line. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
5. no no no get this off the list asap -1ctinus📝🗨 15:18, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Second cull of sportswriters etc

Even if the first cull above passes, sportswriting and broadcasting is still overrepresented, especially from the U.S., Canada and Britain. _pbp 20:23, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Remove Bruce Buffer

Do we really need two martial arts announcers from the Buffer family on this list? Only 10 interwikis vs. 22 for Michael Buffer _pbp 20:20, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 20:20, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 05:13, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:17, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Don't particularly like interwikis as an argument, but sportswriting / sportscasting can be cut. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
5. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:38, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Frank DeFord

Just three interwikis _pbp 20:20, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 20:20, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 05:14, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:19, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Don't particularly like interwikis as an argument, but sportswriting / sportscasting can be cut. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove W.A. Hewitt and/or Lou Marsh

Neither is known outside Canada. Hewitt seems to be the more notable of the two due to his role in establishing hockey leagues _pbp 20:20, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Remove Hewitt

Remove Marsh

1. _pbp 20:20, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Remove both

1. per nom and Hewitt's Legacy section doesn't provide any VA5-level rationale for his significance (besides some cool trivia about how he may have the first person to introduce nets on goalposts in hockey Aurangzebra (talk) 05:18, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:19, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Let's keep cutting sportswriting / sportscasting. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Keep both

Discussion

Remove George Plimpton

Article reads like a puff piece _pbp 20:20, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 20:20, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Cool bio but not VA5-worthy. Aurangzebra (talk) 05:20, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Per above. Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:19, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Let's keep cutting sportswriting / sportscasting. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
5. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Bill Simmons

We already have Erin Andrews and Stuart Scott from the ESPN universe. _pbp 20:20, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 20:20, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Weak support, if we're going to keep any sportscasters, the comments below give some decent reasons to keep this one. I still think sportscasters are over-represented enough though to keep this proposal in contention. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I think I generally agree with you on the rest of these (want to quickly review their articles before I commit to a Support) but I have to Oppose on this. Bill Simmons is not just huge in the sports world (I would wager that your average American sports fan knows who he is due to his outsized social presence) but he is even more vital in the podcasting world. He was arguably a podcasting pioneer, starting a wildly popular podcast on ESPN in 2007 before Serial (podcast) made the whole ecosystem blow up and he sold his podcast network The Ringer (website) for 200 million to Spotify. Many argue that the entirety of the value of the network is derived from Bill Simmons himself and not the content. I feel like anyone that can sell a network for 200 million in podcasting off just their own celebrity deserves a spot here. Also, while validating my claims, I learned that his subreddit r/billsimmons is in the top 2% of subreddits by size. These are musician/actor/athlete numbers, not sports writer. Aurangzebra (talk) 21:21, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

   @Aurangzebra: Were you able to peruse the other sportswriter bios? _pbp 01:34, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

   Got distracted by another thread but done. Aurangzebra (talk) 05:20, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

2. Per Aurangzebra. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:03, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Weak oppose per above. Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:18, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

General thoughts

Somewhere above, either in the first cull or the second, somebody said to remove ALL sports journalists. I ran the interwikis on the 21 sportswriters who will be retained following the two culls (including Simmons, who has been nominated for removal but is likely to be retained), and all but Mike Buffer, Murray Walker and Vin Scully have more than 20 IWs; nine of the remaining 21 have IWs in the single digits. In comparison:

1. The Olympic Games has 179
2. Formula One has 111
3. WWE has 82
4. ESPN has 53

It just looks like sports journalists don't have as much recognition as the sports and athletes they cover. And, on top of that, we have the American/British bias we have in many fields. _pbp 22:34, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

I am not a big fan of using interwikis as a primary metric for vitality. Using it to bolster your claims? Sure. But as the primary source, it is just too finicky. Of course, sports personalities are going to have very few interwikis. Sports and art and music are universal things that anyone can appreciate whether they live in Afghanistan or Zimbabwe. Sports commentary and journalism is inherently limited to your home country - you are likely delivering your commentary in your home language and there is no reason for anyone to translate it. I can probably count on one hand how many sports journalists I know who aren't American. But I don't think this makes it any less important e.g. despite Henry Chadwick (writer) being considered the father of Baseball  4, he is limited to 8 interwikis. And this makes sense; I wouldn't expect his work to be translated into other languages because baseball simply wasn't a phenomenon outside the United States during his time. Now that it is, I think someone considered the father of such a global sport deserves a spot here. If we went solely by interwikis, we would be removing vast swathes of important people, especially those who had major impact in some specific region or unpopular but still notable niche (e.g. businesspeople from the early 20th century or earlier, athletes in lesser-known sports, peripheral figures in entertainment industries such as songwriters or producers, non-public-facing academics particularly those outside of the US/UK, regional pop musicians outside the US/UK, the list goes on and on). If anything, our list should help us identify articles that need to up their interwiki count, not the other way around. Aurangzebra (talk) 02:11, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Remove Boston (band)  5

We have an extremely prevalent bias towards classic rock and this section for people is overquota, so I think a few cuts are in order. As far as vital articles is concerned, I don't think these guys could possibly be considered anything more than a one-hit wonder. They're not listed at list of best-selling music artists, they have less interwikis than any other classic rock act like them at this level (38), and they have no long-lasting legacy. Only one song of theirs has arguably been important to any degree, and that's "More Than a Feeling", which has only 15 interwikis and a relatively low ranking on Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Songs of All Time (literally, in 2004, it was dead last at #500). Any other song of theirs has less than five interwikis, save for "Amanda" (8 still isn't very good, though). Furthermore, they have no songs included in the list of best-selling singles, and their only album listed at list of best-selling albums has relatively low numbers compared to anything else, nearing the bottom of the list.

So to summarize, I see no evidence that the band has left a long lasting impact, they have no widespread commercial success, little to no international significance based on interwikis. Any and all success they've had seems to be based on one song (or album, debatably), and it's not a big enough song to carry their placement here alone. I don't see any reason we should list them here.

Support

1. As nom. λ NegativeMP1 00:00, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:06, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Support. At least in the US, they do still get airtime on the classic rock stations for several songs. Also, it could just be an urban legend, but I was told growing up that their sound production was pretty influential (something about being MIT students and designing their own equipment). Even if it's true though, I don't think VA5 has that much room. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
5. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:40, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Remove INXS  5

Once again, another classic rock band that I'm not sure how ended up here. This one seems just as unimpactful as Boston above, or even less impactful. Their legacy section is only one sentence, they have less than 50 interwikis, and they are not included on the list of best-selling music artists, list of best-selling albums, and they have no songs or albums on any Rolling Stone's Top 500 lists except for Never Tear Us Apart (INXS song), which has only nine interwikis. My same rationale for wanting to remove Boston (band)  5 applies here, but even more so. I see no reason why this band should be vital.

Support

1. As nom. λ NegativeMP1 22:30, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Strong support, nothing against the band, but this is getting into the territory where I wonder if the People quotas should be cut. Also, it's a silly comparison, but as someone that wasn't around for new-wave and only learned about it after the fact, I know way more songs by Men at Work. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 03:32, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
5. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:41, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Edi Rama

Has served as prime minister of Albania since 2013.

Support

1. As nom. Sahaib (talk) 14:42, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Move Zero Mostel from comedians to stage actors

His vitality stems from his three Tony Awards, especially the one for Teyve. _pbp 15:18, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 15:18, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Sure, why not? -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Several music act removals (mostly rock ones)

There are a lot of rock acts that I think should be removed in similar vein to my above proposals to cut Boston (band)  5 and INXS  5, with almost all of these proposals using the same rationale as the one I provided there. However, since there are so many that I think should go, and I don't want to flood this talk page, I'm grouping all of these further proposals into one header.

As for my rationale for removing most of these, most of the following can generally be applied to them unless stated otherwise:

• No songs or albums that are listed on a Rolling Stone 500 greatest of all time list. I also generally do not think even one song or album making it onto those lists is enough.
• Has relatively few interwikis compared to other acts listed at this level, alongside their main songs having few interwikis. A song having only 20-40 interwikis is most of the time understandable, but if a band itself only has that many then I believe it's very easy to tell they're largely irrelevant internationally or aren't truly that important.
• Limited commercial success, such as not being one of the best selling artists of all time, or have not made one of the best selling songs or albums of all time.
• No long lasting impact, and/or are not included in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame  5.

An additional consideration is that, even if some of these are influential to some extent (or clearly do not meet one of my points above), this section has a clear rock bias, is over quota, and honestly I think our quota for musicians should probably be lowered. Obviously, anyone is free to disagree with what I think the bar for removal should be and this is completely subjective, but this is here to basically summarize all of the proposals I have created below.

(Also, I'm might be adding more proposals to this topic over time.)

Remove Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds  5

They seem to be a long-running band that has clearly seen some success to continue going after a few decades, and good for them, but I don't think they belong here. 28 interwikis is a pitifully low number compared to any other act listed here, and the only claim to vitality I can find of theirs is their AllMusic biography that describes them as "one of the most original and celebrated bands of the post-punk and alternative rock eras in the '80s and onward." And when their article only has 28 interwikis, completely lacks a legacy/impact section, and the band itself has fairly limited commercial success, I highly doubt that claim. Even if they are truly influential in alternative rock and their article just doesn't do a good job of demonstrating it, I feel like the listing is more or less just gap-filling trivia about the genre rather than a truly standout act.

Support

1. As nom.
2. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
3. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:42, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. FYI, a lot of the interwikis are instead probably being covered with the article for Nick Cave (who as a name is more well known than Bad Seeds), who is on 49. Commercial success aside, they have been influential over a long span of time. Iostn (talk) 15:16, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discuss

Remove Pavement (band)  5

I will give this band credit where it is due, they have three albums listed on the Rolling Stones 500 listed, and one song listed on that same sites best songs list, and a couple of critics said they were the best band of the 1990s. But with that being said, I think that can safely be pushed to the side when this band possibly has the fewest interwikis out of any modern rock act listed at vital articles (24), which in my opinion makes them liable to be cut. Combine this lack of international relevancy with their lack an impact/legacy section. I commemorate the critical acclaim they have received, but for vital articles I think the reasons they shouldn't be here outweigh the reasons why they should. Refer back to my argument about the potential rock bias.

Support

1. As nom. λ NegativeMP1
2. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
3. They have a large cult following with a lot of critical acclaim, but they are still too niche for VA probably, and unlike Throbbing Gristle they can't really be credited with originating a broad style of music. Iostn (talk) 15:16, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Important to alternative music, but as the nom says it just falls short too much. 49p (talk) 20:51, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
5. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:43, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Remove Chicago (band)  5

Before I get into why I think they should be removed, I will say that they are listed as one of the best selling musicians of all time, with a claimed 100 million units sold. Key word "claimed". Their certified units only amount to about 48.5 million, which is nothing to scoff at, but compared to other rock bands that number is fairly low. Their article does make the claim that they are among the most successful bands to the RIAA and Billboard, but based on List of highest-certified music artists in the United States I highly doubt that claim and the only source for it is an AllMusic biography. Of course, sales numbers aren't everything, but to add onto this, they have no albums or songs that are among the best selling of all time, none that are on any Rolling Stone lists, and their legacy section is basically just saying that their music is popular to cover. Which... okay? They also have a decent amount of interwikis (45), but that's still not a lot. And their most popular song appears to be Hard to Say I'm Sorry, which only has nine interwikis. I think the same logic I applied in my proposal to remove Boston (band)  5 can be applied here. They were popular in the 70s-80s, they had a decent amount of chart success, but they just haven't stood the test of time. The only band out of those classic radio-oriented rock groups that I think should be kept is Journey (band)  5.

Support

1. As nom. λ NegativeMP1 05:32, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

1. Having a hard time really opposing your argument.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:45, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Remove Foreigner (band)  5

The same logic behind wanting to remove Chicago (band)  5 and Boston (band)  5 applies here. Like seriously, the exact same logic, there is nothing more to add or remove. Take my proposal to remove Chicago (band)  5 above, and you pretty much have the exact same reasons as to why I think Foreigner should be cut. I guess to be fair here though, I Want to Know What Love Is is a pretty popular song, and you could maybe make a similar case as to wanting to keep them based on an extremely popular song like that, similar to how I mainly advocated to keep Journey (band)  5 based on the widespread success of {{VA link|Don't Stop Believin')). But with that being said, I still maintain the general reasons why I think they should be cut: not that many interwikis (43, which I guess is more than Journey but still), a decent amount of commercial success but nothing particularly extraordinary, no best-selling albums or songs, no critically acclaimed songs or albums on a Rolling Stone list (IWKWLI was on the 2010 version of the best songs of all time but it isn't on that list anymore), and so on and so forth. Also all of their songs besides I Want To Know What Love Is have very few interwikis.

Support

1. As nom. λ NegativeMP1 05:32, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Unless you want to swap in "I Want to Know What Love Is"-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:48, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

   "I Want To Know What Love Is" is not a song that I would personally list as vital, and I definitely wouldn't list it and not the band. Neither should be here, but that's my opinion. λ NegativeMP1 22:55, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discuss

Remove Pete Townshend  5

A different kind of proposal from the other ones in this topic, but I still want to bring it up. The Who  5 is already V5 and I'm not sure if Townshend himself has enough of a separate career from that band to warrant being listed. He did get ranked on some magazine's choices for the best guitarists, but those primarily took into account his work as part of The Who. If we're gonna list people for those reasons, then sure, I guess that's fine, they're definitely influential, but does anything make him more worthy of vitality than someone like James Hetfield or Gerard Way? For the record, I'm not advocating for Hetfield or Way to be listed here, since similarly, their associated bands (Metallica  5 and My Chemical Romance  5) are already V5, but more or less my point is where would we draw the line. Nevertheless, I still think this listing is redundant to the band itself.

Support

1. As nom. λ NegativeMP1 05:32, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Townshend wrote practically every song for the Who and is the brainchild behind all of their work, including Tommy (The Who album)  5 ("My Generation" also used to be VA-5). While I'm not arguing for the Who to be VA-4, the Who is quite close, being "one of the most influential rock bands of the 20th century" with acclaimed work spanning a decade. I think keeping Townshend in VA-5 will maintain that distinction. I find Townshend in a similar boat to Roger Waters  5 or Jimmy Page  5/Robert Plant  5 as a songwriter who led an influential band.CopiousAmountofCannons (talk) 11:16, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discuss

Remove Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young  5

We already list Neil Young  5 (who appears to be worthy of vitality himself) and I don't think he needs a subtopic when he's only V5. He himself definitely outweighs the influence of the band. The same logic for why I wanted to remove other rock bands in this topic applies here (no widespread commercial success, no long lasting impact as a group, etc.)

Support

1. As nom. λ NegativeMP1 05:32, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Highly influential in their own right Iostn (talk) 15:16, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

   The band article has no legacy section, and I highly doubt it's worth listing when Neil Young is already vital. Could you please elaborate on your argument for how they are influential in their own right? λ NegativeMP1 22:57, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

2. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:49, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discuss

Remove The Ronettes  5

Not a rock group, but I think my reasons for wanting to remove them are identical to why I want some of these rock groups removed, so I'm putting this here anyways. Basically, I can't think of a single reason why this group should be vital. 33 interwikis is not that much, their only critically acclaimed album, Presenting the Fabulous Ronettes (422 on a Rolling Stone list), has only 3 interwikis, and they're not that commercially successful or influential on the music industry.

Support

1. As nom. λ NegativeMP1 05:32, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

1. Be My Baby  5 is massively influential and they contributed a lot to "A Christmas Gift for You From Phil Spector" which Rolling Stone ranked the greatest Christmas album of all time, although both are famous primarily due to Phil Spector  5's production. It doesn't seem we have any classic girl groups besides The Supremes  4, so I am not against keeping The Ronettes. CopiousAmountofCannons (talk) 11:20, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Remove Imogen Heap  5

AFAIK, her influence is more on technical grounds rather than being that well-known or critically acclaimed musically/stylistically - to note, the genres she's associated with were well-established by the start of her career. I considered her to maybe be the weakest listing under electronic music, and if Throbbing Gristle is removed (which I strongly disagree with) then so should she.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 15:29, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
2. λ NegativeMP1 18:19, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Iostn (talk) 15:29, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Add Breyten Breytenbach

A while back there was actually a vote to remove his brother, Jan Breytenbach, a soldier far less well known than he is. Also quite a nice South African who has hardly killed anyone.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 17:46, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Frank G. Slaughter  5

"books sold more than 60 million copies" (uncited), but other than that there's little indication of vitality, other than a couple of film adaptations, with none of his books having articles. Possibly, the high figure, if at all true, is just due him having written a lot of books in general.

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 21:17, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Per above. Sahaib (talk) 22:09, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Definitely, how did this slip through the cracks Aurangzebra (talk) 00:50, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Move Robert Cecil, 1st Viscount Cecil of Chelwood  5 and Ralph Bunche  5 to politicians

I cannot fathom why they are not listed under politicians when their principal endeavors were diplomatic/political (both received the Nobel Peace Prize for diplomacy). In addition, Cecil was a Cabinet secretary in the British government. _pbp 16:07, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 16:07, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster doesn't really do anything. Sahaib (talk) 16:40, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Cecil also served in both houses of parliament _pbp 20:17, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Best-selling non-vital musicians

I have compiled them. This could help people who want to make suggestions, though some have already been discussed before.

Extracted from List of best-selling music artists

Artist Country Period active Release-year of first charted record Genre Total certified units (from available markets) Claimed sales Tim McGraw United States 1990–present 1994 Country 82.3 million US: 80.65 million UK: 200,000 CAN: 1.535 million 90 million Post Malone United States 2013–present 2015 Pop / R&B / hip-hop 238.5 million US: 172.5 million GER: 2.4 million UK: 25.02 million FRA: 1.533 million CAN: 13.44 million AUS: 11.1 million BRA: 6.170 million ITA: 810,000 SWE: 900,000 NOR: 420,000 DEN: 2.29 million MEX: 330,000 BEL: 235,000 POL: 290,000 NZ: 840,000 POR: 295,000 80 million Flo Rida United States 2007–present 2007 Hip-hop / hip house /EDM 90.7 million US: 61.5 million JPN: 650,000 GER: 4.1 million UK: 14.62 million FRA: 225,000 CAN: 3.09 million AUS: 3.605 million ITA: 515,000 SPA: 140,000 SWE: 780,000 DEN: 420,000 SWI: 420,000 MEX: 330,000 AUT: 210,000 POL: 100,000 NZ: 247,500 80 million Imagine Dragons United States 2008–present 2012 Pop rock / electropop / pop 161.7 million US: 112.5 million GER: 5.450 million UK: 15.8 million FRA: 3.666 million CAN: 4.640 million AUS: 3.150 million BRA: 7.460 million ITA: 2.375 million SPA: 1.650 million SWE: 1.180 million NOR: 555,000 DEN: 690,000 MEX: 510,000 BEL: 340,000 AUT: 572,500 POL: 790,000 NZ: 270,000 POR: 140,000 75 million Luke Bryan United States 2001–present 2007 Country / country pop 108.9 million US: 106.5 million UK: 400,000 CAN: 2.040 million 75 million Bob Seger United States 1961–present 1967 Rock / Hard rock/ Pop rock 55.3 million US: 52.5 million UK: 260,000 FRA: 2.6 million CAN: 2.560 million 75 million References

Sahaib (talk) 00:02, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

We already list a lot of musicians (too many, infact) and we've already been making cuts even towards artists that are among the best selling due to their lack of relevance and importance over time. And a lot of these are simply either too recent or fall into that category I just mentioned. I would not support the vast majority of these myself. λ NegativeMP1 01:46, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Add Harry Styles

Out of the artists I compiled here, he is one of the more vital ones in my opinion. See Cultural impact of Harry Styles and List of awards and nominations received by Harry Styles. It is similar to Justin Timberlake and NSYNC in that One Direction is already vital.

Support

1. As nom. Sahaib (talk) 00:20, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. One Direction  5 is already level 5 and I would argue his solo career (which began less than a decade ago) to fall under too recent. I recognize his widespread impact and popularity, but his fame isn't something truly extraordinary and we don't know if it will stand the test of time. And besides, I think we should list less musicians, not more. λ NegativeMP1 01:50, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Per NegativeMP1. Also if we recently voted to boot Dua Lipa who has had both more critical and commercial success than Harry Styles as a solo artist (not to mention way more interwikis), I don't think we can justify adding him yet. Aurangzebra (talk) 01:54, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Although his 3rd Multiplatinum album, inches him a bit above Dua Lipa, I can't support both as a solo artist and part of a band.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:55, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

Remove Nexhmije Pagarusha

There is more vital artists from Southeast Europe that are not listed such as Dino Merlin who actually wrote Bosnia and Herzegovina's national anthem (I would have suggested him but Bosnian Goran Bregović is already listed) as well as Lepa Brena and Zdravko Čolić (Bosnian emigrants to Serbia). In terms of just Kosovo/Albania, artists such as Dua Lipa, Era Istrefi, Rona Nishliu, Bleona have more language links but I don't really think there is a vital artist from the countries as of now.

Support

1. As nom. Sahaib (talk) 07:40, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:23, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 22:39, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove some publisher stubs or near-stubs

The proposed removals have no direct connection to VA5 publications, historical events, or awards. Some of them are included as the "first publication in X region," but many of these publications were short-lived, had little diffusion, and no wiki articles. Plus, some of these claims may be insufficiently sourced or subject to debate.

• Samuel Orchart Beeton  5
• Cho Gab-je  5
• Benjamin Harris (publisher)  5
• Ebenezer Landells  5
• Henry Muddiman  5
• Roy W. Howard  5
• Samuel Keimer  5
• Frederick Wimble  5

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:01, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
2. None of these seem vital. Kevinishere15 (talk) 06:18, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
3. sure GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 06:25, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
4. All of these get super low pageviews, Samuel Orchart Beeton is the biggest at ~13 a day and everyone else is even worse.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 10:14, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

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Add John Amos Comenius to Educators

Founder of modern pedagogy, 66 interwikis. (Can be exchanged for: William Holmes McGuffey (2 iw), Egerton Ryerson (3iw) or Oscar Browning (4iw) - very local personalities)

Support

1. 109.81.83.126 (talk) 02:38, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Definitely! Makkool (talk) 08:24, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

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Remove some smaller sports figures

Remove Robert Fulford (croquet player)  5

We recently downgraded Croquet  5 from Level 4 to 5. There's less reason to have a croquet pro in the list. Fulford has zero interwikis as well.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 08:24, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 19:44, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove George Balabushka  5

A designer and maker of pool cues. A legend in his field, but feels hardly a vital figure to list.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 08:24, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Mika Kohonen  5

A floorball player. Arguably one of the best players of all time, but floorball is globally a niche sport only popular in Northern Europe.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 08:24, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

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Remove Frederick Humphreys (athlete)  5

Won a gold medal in tug-of-war, when it was briefly an Olympic sport. Tug-of-war is a Level 4 article, but still I don't think it's necessary to have a figure listed for that sport. Tug-of-war is more an informal thing, and it being a competetive sport seems more like a historical edge case.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 08:24, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

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TWO gold medals, FWIW. Fourteen interwikis, which is substantially more than some of the others up for removal. I think the question might be, "would he be vital if this was a different sport?" Does two relay medals get you VA5? Does two team medals in basketball get you VA5? _pbp 20:02, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

This may be a bit of a forced analogy, but compare Scottie Pippen. Scottie is NOT at VA5, although he may be one of the most influential basketball players to not be. Scottie has 6 NBA (team) championships in addition to two Gold medals (1992 and 1996). _pbp 20:04, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

It's really hard to say what's worth including and what's too marginal. I mostly think that examples like Humphreys broadens the scope too thin, but I realize we can't just have it all be football, baseball, basketball and athletics. In any case, I would support swapping Humphreys with Pippen. Makkool (talk) 20:24, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Remove Feliks Zemdegs  5

Speedcubing is pretty niche at a V5 already so I don't believe we need any subpages for it. -1ctinus📝🗨 15:14, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nom -1ctinus📝🗨 15:14, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Support per nom. I was also thinking of nominating him. Makkool (talk) 10:25, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

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