Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Battle of Köse Dağ

Nominator(s): AirshipJungleman29 (talk)

Although I've taken various MILHIST articles to GA and FA, this is my first A-class nomination. The Battle of Köse Dağ was a decisive event for the Middle East, marking the end of real Seljuk power and another feather in the cap of the Mongol war machine. One of the great powers of the Mediterranean was overpowered on its own territory by an army half its size operating 4,500km away from its homeland. Quite an achievement, by any measure. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:02, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

HF

Welcome to ACR! I'm not very familiar with this subject matter, but I'll take a look at this. Hog Farm _Talk 02:33, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"For most of the first day of fighting," - I'm not sure about "first day of fighting"; this is usually used for multi-day battles like Gettysburg, but this is a single day battle
"When the sun rose on the second day of battle, the Mongols suspected that the deserted enemy camp was a trap before realising their enemy had indeed fled; their delay in advancing cost them any chance of capturing Kaykhusraw" - are the RS really considering this to be a true second day of the battle? At least for the 19th-century warfare that I'm familiar with, this would generally be considered a pursuit phase rather than a true second day of the battle
It's not entirely clear to me - did the Mongols attempt to pursue after determing the camp wasn't a trap but just couldn't catch up to the retreating foe, or were the armies of Rum so far gone that they didn't pursue?
- I'll address these together Hog Farm—one source does consider it a second day (May 2016: "on the second day of the battle") but the others are neutral, so I've adjusted the prose. No source provides clarification for the third point, sadly. Thanks for the comments! ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 18:14, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This looks like it's in pretty good shape to me. Hog Farm _Talk 03:06, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Supporting Hog Farm _Talk 20:59, 15 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gog the Mild

I'll have a look too. AJ, is the plan to move this on to FAC? If so would you 1. like me to pre-emptively review this more or less against the FAC criteria and/or 2. do a pre-FAC copy edit as I go. Both are entirely optional. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:02, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gog the Mild, an FAC is probable, so both would be welcomed! ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:21, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wah ha ha ha haa! The copy editors of the Apocalypse are sharpening their claws. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:25, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"File:Sultanate of Rûm.svg" needs the HQ RS from which it is drawn specifying.
"were later formally annexed by the Mongol Ilkhanate." Is it possible to give the actual year?
"to confront the invasion near Köse Dağ Mountain on 26 June". Of what yea? And what is the invasion, it seems to appear from no where.
"Kaykhusraw's disintegrating army fled". Why and in what way was it disintegrating? I would suggest 'demoralised', if the sources permit. And in the main article.
A map of Rum would be nice. Cplakidas, do you know of a decent map of Rum c. 1240? Gog the Mild (talk) 18:42, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- @Gog the Mild: not on Commons, unfortunately. There's File:Sultanate of Rûm.svg of course, but without a source.

Constantine If you chase down the sourcing, it is based on this; the map is at the top. It is in turn cited to the Encyclopedia Brittanica. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:14, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am a bit dubious about the details of some of the conquests shown and their supposed timeframes, but FWIW generally the map seems OK, and matches what I have seen elsewhere. Constantine ✍ 22:05, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with both ends of your comments. A map like that is inevitably simplistic, but that sort of thing seems acceptable at FAC so long as adequately sourced. Thanks for your assistance Constantine. (I have a FAC here if you are interested. :-) Gog the Mild (talk) 22:16, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

- Maps like File:LatinEmpire2.png also don't have sources. In extremis I would go with File:South-eastern Europe c. 1210.jpg, even though it is very old, at least it comes from a historical atlas, and it broadly fits the maps I have seen in more modern works. If anyone wants to make a new map or adapt File:Sultanate of Rûm.svg I have some sources that might be useful. Constantine ✍ 20:52, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"gained control of the entire region". What region would that be?
"over the next 150 years". Starting when?
"invaded first the Russian principalities and then Europe itself." The Russian principalities are in Europe.
"had correctly feared that Jalal al-Din's activities would draw the attention of the Mongols towards his kingdom." Why?
"nobles from the Greek remnants of the Byzantine Empire". If you are going to include "Greek", should it not be 'nobles from the remnants of the Greek Byzantine Empire'?
"while his own armies contained". What's "his own army"? You have just said "build a strong army ... by hiring large numbers of mercenaries". Was this "strong army" not Kaykhusraw's then?
"mostly ethnic Mongols but also included". you only need one of "also" and "included".
"The core of the Mongol army was about 30,000 experienced and disciplined troops, who were mostly ethnic Mongols but also included Uighurs and men from Turkestan, led by Baiju and a number of competent officials." This sprawls a little, suggest putting the command arrangements into a separate sentence. And why were officials preferred over military officers or generals?
"They were accompanied by Georgian and Armenian cavalry". 1. Suggest this goes after the components of the core army and before the command arrangements. 2. Any idea of their numbers? 3. The lead gives "around 30,000", the text gives the "core" of the army as around 30,000; this leaves no room for any Georgians or Armenians.
"a more realistic estimate is 80,000." It is usual to name in line the person/people making this claim.
"During the night, the disintegrating forces of Rum fled their camp; they included the sultan, who was concerned that some of his more disloyal subjects could defect to Baiju, and who thus fled to Ankara." This sentence is arguably overworked, and contains "fled" twice.
"this delay in advancing cost them the chance of capturing Kaykhusraw." And of destroying his army I assume?
"at the expense of Rum's treasury." Suggest 'at Rum's expense.'

Great work. Get it moved straight on to FAC. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:59, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hawkeye7

Image review - passed

File:Bataille de Közä Dagh (1243).jpeg PD - okay

File:Kösedağ, Suşehri, Sivas.jpg - CC 4.0 - okay

Source review - passed

Sources are of good quality
Formatting is fine and consistent
4b, 7a, 9b: okay
13: okay
25: okay

Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:52, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]