Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration/Statements

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General statements

Statement by RTG

The Irish Government and State have put the Island first in all Law and Constitution.

The Island has numerous Articles before the State is acknowledged in That Document.

Therfor, if that State is measured in importance, the Island be ever more important, by that States design.

If you were unaware or failing in the knowledge of that, Wikipedia is in the search to provide and disseminate such knowledge effectively[1].

(I said, island first as the state and therefore Wikipedia would have it, state second, respect the whole thing)

~ RTG

Addition

On the day that the state called Ireland becomes Ireland I will go buy a hat and post you all a picture of me eating it. I can see no other majorly contested point of confusion in this matter. ~ R.T.G 03:16, 1 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Users that endorse this summary

Users that oppose this summary

HighKing (talk) 14:10, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Red King (talk) 19:10, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
waggers (talk) 11:20, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
MusicInTheHouse (talk) 16:03, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Redking7. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 21:31, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--Domer48_'fenian' 15:37, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--Snowded (talk) 12:28, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
RashersTierney (talk) 10:30, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
ClemMcGann (talk) 13:53, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
86.44.111.162 (talk) 18:50, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Jack forbes (talk) 20:25, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Robertbyrne (talk) 22:54, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:52, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This was the compromise position that I proposed in the Agust 2009 discussion, when I believed in good faith that it would be acceptable to other users. However, the majority remained determined to be wrong. For my equivalent 'not an inch' position, see below --Red King (talk) 19:44, 31 October 2011 (UTC) [reply]

Statement by Red King

I support the view that the article Ireland must be a generally descriptive one with pointers to sub-articles or related articles (known as the "MickMacNee solution").
1. I support the view that Ireland (country), if it has to exist at all, should redirect to the new master article, not to any of the alternate meaning articles.
I support the view that Ireland (island) be established, which is primarily about the geography and natural history.
I support the view that Ireland (state) be established, which is primarily about the nation state that has existed since 1921.
I do not support the view that Ireland or Ireland (country) should be simple disambiguation articles.
I do not support the continued existence of a Republic of Ireland article as being other than a redirect to the Ireland (state) article. (I would accept a disambiguation article that offered readers a choice of either the state article or the Republic of Ireland national soccer team article).

My reasons are these:

The Ireland article should be a generally descriptive one with pointers to sub-articles or related articles

Wikipedia is for a world-wide audience. It should aim to inform people who know very little about the subject and have come to Wikipedia to be enlightened. The prejudices of the local audience are secondary.
As the long raging debate over the term 'Ireland' has shown, the position is complicated and that complexity needs to be exposed overtly. This follows from the previous point: visitors need a context that gives them enough information to choose the most relevant article, yet makes them aware that the subject is complicated.
It is wrong to define Ireland only in terms of the 20th century (which is what many of the options proposed by others seeks to do). The term Ireland, in the context of its people and their political structures, has an undisputed history as a distinct single nation going back at least 1000 years (see High Kings of Ireland - an even longer history is argued by some). Even under [disputed] English overlordship, Ireland remained politically distinct until the Act of Union 1801 - and even then we had the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, albeit for just 120 years.
We need a hook on which to hang all-island items (such as the transport infrastructure, religious and many sporting organisations.
It has the benefit of "equality of misery" (or a win-win solution) - neither of the current factions wins but neither do they lose.

Ireland (country), if it has to exist at all, should redirect to the new master article

Ireland as a distinct country has a long history, see above. In certain sports, such as Rugby, it continues to operate as such. For less than 100 years of its long history, it has two jurisdictions. The standard Wikipedia definition of country does not fit and it seems best to me to dodge the issue by redirecting to the new Ireland (context) article that I have described above.

My own preference is the article Ireland (country) be deleted completely since it has no practical value other than to be a bone of contention.

Ireland (island) should be established, which is primarily about the geography and natural history.

We certainly need a distinct article about the geography, geology and natural history of the island, since it has more than enough material on those subjects alone. I assume that there is a strong consensus for such and article, the only debate is what it should to be called. In my view, this article has to give way to the context-setting article.

Ireland (state) should be established, which is primarily about the nation state that has existed since 1921.

As with Ireland (island), I believe that the article about the nation state has to give way to the context article in terms of priority.
It is subordinate to the context article because it describes a state that has existed for at most 8% of the history of the country.
It is consistent with the handling of Georgia (which isn't a great reason but it's a factor).

Ireland or Ireland (country) should not be simple disambiguation articles

since to do so would contradict the reasons that I have already given as to why Ireland should be a context or scene setting article and Ireland (country) should redirect to it.

The Republic of Ireland article should not be other than a redirect to the Ireland (state) article.

because this is not its name, but merely a description of its constitutional arrangement.
1. compare with République Française and Repubblica Italiana where these are the names of the those countries as enshrined in their constitutions. [But interestingly, the primary Wikipedia aricles are France and Italy respectively, not 'Republic of', even though in both cases the short names describe a geographical area that contains more than one severeign state (cf Monaco, San Marino, Vatican).
because it is not the name used in any international body (other than some sports bodies).
because it is not how the state describes itself
because the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland no longer disputes its use. (see Belfast Agreement#Provisions)

...but there is a case for a disambiguation article Republic of Ireland

because the most common use of the phrase (other than in the UK press, who still even use "Eire" [sic]!) is to refer to the Republic of Ireland national soccer team. [note that Ireland has three football codes (GAA, AF, Rugby)].

user:Red King, 10 August 2009

But in the end

Since it has come to pass that other parties have shown no wish to compromise, then let me state my 'no compromise' position in return. The name of the state is 'Ireland' and that it is how its article should be named. This is also its WP:COMMONNAME everywhere except in the UK. The name of the island article should be Ireland (island), which is the style used in nearly every other language wikipedia. --Red King (talk) 19:44, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Alternative perspectives

Statement by Bastun — in favour of option F.
Statement by BritishWatcher — in favour of option F; against option B.
Statement by Evertype — offers generic arguments for and against each option. Also advocates opposing options A, B, and F.
Statement by GoodDay — in favour of option E; against options A and C.
Statement by HighKing — in favour of options E, D, and C; against options A, B, and F.
Statement by Rannpháirtí anaithnid — in favour of options F, D, and C; against options B and E.
Statement by Rockpocket — general statement.
Statement by Sarah777 — in favour of C, A, B, D, and E (in that order); against option F.
Statement by Scolaire — in favour of option A.
Statement by Tfz — in favour of option A.
Statement by Valenciano — in favour of option F; against options A and B.

Summaries provided after the start of the poll. (Please place additions in alphabetical order.)

Statement by RTG - Vote for :D Vote not for :C

Other statements by this user

Statement by Red King (second statement)

Ireland (country)

The purpose of this second statement is to challenge a false assumption made in each of the 'proposed solutions' in the main article: they all make the mistake of equating the country, Ireland with the modern state, Ireland. They are not identical.

The problem is that the jurisdiction of neither of the present states is coterminous with the historical country. It is wrong to define Ireland only in terms of the 20th century (which is what many of the options proposed by others seeks to do). The term 'Ireland', in the context of its people and their political structures, has an undisputed history as a distinct single nation going back at least 1000 years (see High Kings of Ireland - an even longer history is argued by some). Even under [disputed] English overlordship, Ireland remained politically distinct until the Act of Union 1801 - and even then we had the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, albeit for just 120 years.

I recognise that the current Country article defines a country to be identically equal to a sovereign state. In the case of Ireland, that is not true. There are many all-island institions, dating back many hundreds of years. Examples include the major religious denominations and the 'national' (as in "RBS Six Nations" [sic]) rugby team. The history of the country, Ireland, is not the history of the current state of that name.

Consequently I propose that if we have to have an Ireland (country) article [and I am at a loss to see why we do] then it should only redirect to the proposed 'context' Ireland article. In the context of this procedure, it should be deleted from the solution matrix because it is contentious and not critical to any of the solutions.

To avoid anyone jumping to the conclusion that this is a nationalist polemic for Irish unity, please observe that it would apply equally well to a reunited United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. The last 80 years represent less than 8% of the history of the country. I'm asking people to take the long view.

Users that endorse this summary

86.44.111.162 (talk) 19:03, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Users that oppose this summary

Redking7. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 21:41, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
BritishWatcher (talk) 00:46, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--HighKing (talk) 10:28, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Redking7

The short bit - If the RoI article is not to be moved to "Ireland", I agree with the compromise proposal that:

the RoI article to "Ireland (state)";
the island article to "Ireland (island)"; and
"Ireland" be a DAB.

For those who wish to read on:

There are a bunch of states that have geographic names that do not fully correspond with their borders – Examples:

Luxembourg – The state of that name does not include Luxembourg (Belgium);
Mongolia – The state of that name does not include Inner Mongolia;
Samoa – The state of that name does not include American Samoa;
Solomon Islands – The state of that name does not include the North Solomon Islands;
South Africa – The state of that name does not include lots of places in South Africa such as Swaziland;
Papua New Guinea – The state of that name does not include Papua (Indonesian province);

....The names of all of the above states have Wikipedia articles that follow their usual names.Why is Ireland being singled out? Regards. Redking7 (talk) 07:07, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Users that endorse this summary

MusicInTheHouse (talk) 16:08, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Off topic text added by Rockpocket was removed from this section by Gnevin. This may lead to a confusing flow in this section's text. For the original text see [2].Rockpocket 01:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Off topic text added by Jeanne boleyn was removed from this section by Gnevin. This may lead to a confusing flow in this section's text. For the original text see [3].--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:54, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Off topic text added by Daicaregos was removed from this section by Gnevin. This may lead to a confusing flow in this section's text. For the original text see [4].Daicaregos (talk) 16:45, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
waggers (talk) 20:59, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Off topic text added by HighKing was removed from this section by Gnevin. This may lead to a confusing flow in this section's text. For the original text see [5].--HighKing (talk) 10:57, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--Snowded (talk) 12:56, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
86.44.111.162 (talk) 19:06, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
RashersTierney (talk) 08:29, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Users that oppose this summary

Mooretwin (talk) 12:59, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Off topic text added by Blue-Haired Lawyer was removed from this section by Gnevin. This may lead to a confusing flow in this section's text. For the original text see [6].Blue-Haired Lawyer 16:29, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:47, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 21:32, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:55, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Mooretwin

I wish to express disappointment that this project is apparently focused only on the names of article pages.

As I argued in discussions about the Ireland disambiguation task force, the disputes around the Ireland name relate not only to the names of the articles, but also how the names are used within the text of other articles. The names of related articles are also relevant, e.g. Economy of the Republic of Ireland, Demographics of the Republic of Ireland.

The narrow terms of reference of this arbitration/mediation attempt mean that it is doomed to fail. A solution that focuses only on the titles of two articles will not resolve the naming dispute.

I also argued that the only way to achieve consensus is to achieve a comprehensive solution that included decisions about both article names and also references to names in other articles.

I perceived that the primary cause of the disputes has been the objection by a group of editors, mostly from the Republic of Ireland, to the term “Republic of Ireland”. This objection has validity, but the uncompromising and doctrinaire nature of some of its adherents, who wish to purge the term entirely from the whole encyclopaedia, has predictably provoked similarly uncompromising and doctrinaire opposition.

On the face of it, the stated reason for this objection – that “Ireland” is the official name and the “Republic of Ireland” is not – is sound. It fails, however, to take into account:

the ambiguous nature of the name
its history as a name deliberately chosen to articulate an Irish-nationalist POV and territorial claim, and
the fact that “Republic of Ireland” is the “official description”, provided for in statute by the Republic’s own parliament, and used commonly in the real world as a disambiguator.

The wholesale objection to the term appears to be a visceral one that goes beyond reason.

It is noteworthy, however, that there appears to be no dispute about the need for disambiguation.

My strong view, therefore, is that "Republic of Ireland" should remain the name of the state article, and that "Ireland" should remain the name of the island article.

In the interests of compromise, however, I was prepared to forego this position and accept "Ireland (state)" as the name of the state article but only if there were also agreement to allow "Republic of Ireland" to be used in the text of other articles where appropriate.

My proposal, therefore, was:

Move Republic of Ireland to Ireland (state)
“Republic of Ireland” to remain as the primary disambiguator for “Ireland (state)” in the text of articles where disambiguation is desirable, i.e. articles about or relating to all of Ireland, to Northern Ireland, to the UK and to the British Isles.
“Ireland” to be acceptable usage for Ireland (state) in the text of articles not requiring disambiguation, i.e. articles relating solely to the state, articles relating to the state in wider international contexts, e.g. EU or UN.
The Ireland article to be rewritten to focus on all-Ireland geography, history, culture, etc.

This proposal received unprecedented support from a wide range of editors. I still believe that this is the solution.

It is a solution that I can support, however, only as an entire package. The individual elements of the solution lose my support if they are picked off and dealt with separately.

Users that endorse this summary

Users that oppose this summary

MusicInTheHouse (talk) 15:22, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--Domer48_'fenian' 15:39, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fmph (talk) 01:26, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--Snowded (talk) 12:50, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
86.44.111.162 (talk) 00:56, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
HighKing (talk) 10:32, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
BigDunc^Talk 15:14, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
RashersTierney (talk) 08:30, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by GoodDay

Call it fatigue, I'm no longer concerned about what the Ireland articles are called. As long as I can differentiate them, I'm content. Therefore, I'll go along with whatever's decided.

Users that endorse this summary

Users that oppose this summary

R.T.G 11:20, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
MusicInTheHouse (talk) 15:23, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--Domer48_'fenian' 15:39, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--Snowded (talk) 12:52, 12 March 2009 (UTC) (Qualified as in prior discussions it has been clear that the proponent of this wants to use ROI in all text so compromise becomes meaningless)[reply]
RashersTierney (talk) 10:36, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:49, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Jeanne boleyn

My objection to the name of Republic of Ireland is this: The article on France does not have to be called Republic of France, Italy is not burdened with Republic of Italy, even the region of Sicily is allowed to have an article entitled simply Sicily; yet Ireland is constrained to be labelled Republic of Ireland. It appears as if it had no history prior to 1922.

Users that endorse this summary

--Domer48_'fenian' 15:10, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
MusicInTheHouse (talk) 15:23, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Daicaregos (talk) 16:49, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse in substance. Redking7 (talk) 20:20, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
waggers (talk) 22:12, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--Snowded (talk) 12:53, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--Vintagekits (talk) 20:50, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
86.44.111.162 (talk) 00:56, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
BigDunc^Talk 15:15, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ω ENGLISH LOCK Ω 13:15, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Users that oppose this summary

~ R.T.G 11:21, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
~ BritishWatcher (talk) 14:59, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
— Blue-Haired Lawyer 16:30, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Kittybrewster ☎ 17:40, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Mooretwin (talk) 23:28, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:43, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
78.152.254.197 (talk) 00:56, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 21:33, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
HighKing (talk) 10:34, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
ras52 (talk) 10:39, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:49, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement 1.2 by User RTG

Irish who fall under the red hand (Ulster) are less likely to claim they are Irish owing to the recent "Troubles" when many adopted saying that they do not want to be Irish. Do they get the red hand from Scotland, England, Wales or some other non-Irish state? Northern what? Ulster where? Is that place equally on Ireland yet not a part of a certain state? Very much so, yes.

Does the state cover the topic of Ireland? No. Not on its own. The topic of Ireland covers the state but not the other way around.

Does the state cherish its heritage as a republic? Yes. Its basic element is a republic, An Poblacht na hEireann. In ten years the state plans the biggest party it has ever known to celebrate the republics hundredth year, the states "birth".

Would it be appropriate to hide or obscure the element of republic in this state? No. Certainly not. Terror to thought. Those concerned with the state would hardly appreciate that. Some political leaders would go for that in a big way? Nonsense. Rubbish. Sorry. None of them would unless it had to do with uniting the rest of the place and I for one would go with that also. Of course the state is not Ireland. If it were to become the complete Irish state, it would change signifigantly, would not be the state that it is today.

Users who endorse this summary

Users who oppose this summary

Statement by Domer48

Under the heading Interim agreement on the Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration, it says, among other things that, “Members commit to the best of their ability, always to "comply with Wikipedia policies …and…utilizing reliable sources for contentious or disputed assertions…” All of the contrabutions which suggest that "Ireland" is ambiguous have provided no reliable sources to support their assertions.

The name of the country is Ireland, this is well referenced and is both nationally and internationally recognised. For example, The names of the Member States of the European Union must always be written and abbreviated according to certain rules with the following note on Ireland: Do not use ‘Republic of Ireland’ nor ‘Irish Republic’.
BUNREACHT NA hÉIREANN (Constitution of Ireland) not once mentions “Republic of Ireland.” Article 4 of the Constitution of Ireland states that: "The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland."
The Republic of Ireland Act, 1948, states quite clearly that “It is hereby declared that the description of the State shall be the Republic of Ireland.”

The term "Ireland" is ambiguous?

My opinion, based as it is on the complete lack of supporting references suggesting that the name “Ireland” is ambiguous and therefore confusing is pure conjecture on the part of some Editors. The only attempt at supporting evidence to date has been Journal of British Studies.
Far from it describing an ambiguous term, it places the subject in its correct political context. The last section in the article by Mary E. Daly (revisionist) professor of Irish history and principal of the College of Arts and Celtic Studies at University College Dublin) sums up rather well “By the mid 1960s, Britain was the only country not to refer to the state as Ireland… however since 2000 it has… and the credentials presented by the British ambassador, Stewart Eldon, in 2003, were addressed to the President of Ireland… Yet Britain's recognition of “Ireland,” far from being “a gesture of despair,” as officials feared in 1934, now reflects a new confidence, a new level of involvement in the affairs of the entire island, and a more equal relationship with the United Kingdom.”
The best example of this “new confidence” and Britain’s recognition of “Ireland,” is the The Belfast / Good Friday Agreement which not once mentions “Republic of Ireland.” It instead uses terms such as "Government of Ireland," "island of Ireland" and "Constitution of Ireland."
Evidence presented by angusmclellan here on ambiguity also addresses the issue very well.

Based on the above, Editors cannot address the issues of The term "Ireland" is ambiguous until some supporting evidence is provided. Editors who wish to oppose my rational and reasoning may wish to add what verifiable and reliable sources which say it is ambiguous under this, when posting their oppose preference?

Links that support The term "Ireland" is ambiguous

Responce to links are here

The Irish Free State/Éire/Republic of Ireland/Ireland: “A Country by Any Other Name”?. Journal of British Studies 46 (January 2007): 72–90.
The Irish governments website about Irelands geography
Éamon de Valera. Printed debates Dáil Éireann (PDDE), vol. 67, 25 May 1937, col. 948.

Users that endorse this summary

MusicInTheHouse (talk) 15:21, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
User:Jeanne boleyn--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:56, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Daicaregos (talk) 16:52, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Windyjarhead (talk) 23:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--HighKing (talk) 10:51, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--Snowded (talk) 12:26, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
86.44.111.162 (talk) 18:40, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse. BigDunc^Talk 15:03, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
-- RÓNÁN "Caint / Talk" 09:15, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Weeman com (talk) 19:39, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Tfz 01:09, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Users that oppose this summary

Statement by Blue-Haired Lawyer

I wrote most of this a while ago but never posted it as discussion had momentarily petered out. I've decided to post in now as part of the currently resolution process which, hopefully, is nearing conclusion. — Blue-Haired Lawyer 15:22, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why the article name of the Irish state should stay as the Republic of Ireland

Renaming this article, "Ireland" whether with disambiguation brackets or not, will inevitably end up with phrases such as "we generally call [Northern Ireland] Ulster, though Ulster strictly includes three counties in Ireland".^[7] Personally I think this is the best argument against a rename, but here are some more anyway.

The Irish state has, for better of for worse, two common names:

Ireland is used to refer to the state when there is little or no need to worry about confusion with northern Ireland. It is also used for legal purposes such as Irish Acts of Parliament and treaties. Legal documents come with definitions and acquired meanings, encyclopedia articles don't. In an act of parliament black can be white and white can be black. Under the nationality acts the children of diplomats aren't "people", but who is really going to say that Irish law doesn't recognise them as human beings.

The Republic of Ireland is used when there is a possibility of confusion. The latter term is also a much more precise term for encyclopedic usage. The statement "Ireland has a population of 4.4 million people" has a very high probability of being misunderstood if it is made away from the Republic of Ireland article with its copious explanation of the naming problem. No user should be expected to read (the excellent) article on Names of the Irish state. It is not a precondition for reading Wikipedia that they do so. The above statement should be self-explanatory. "The Republic of Ireland has a population of 4.4 million people" fits this purpose.

At an article naming level we opt for the Republic of Ireland as a page title. Page titles lack context and Ireland as a title could cause confusion. I admit Ireland (state) does not give rise to confusion but it does end up with an undesirable this is what we say (this is what we mean) naming convention. Ireland (state) would be an ok solution if the Oireachtas had never passed the Republic of Ireland Act, but they did. One of the reasons given in the Dail debate for the act was to avoid the use of the terms "Eire [sic]" and/or "Ireland" to refer exclusively to the state at the expense of Northern Ireland.

Elsewhere in Wikipedia where there isn't any risk of confusion we can (and should) pipe-link: [[Republic of Ireland|Ireland]].

Proponents of a rename have two main arguments: first, Ireland is the official name of the state and, second, the term is frequently used to refer to the state. I'll deal with the latter argument first. I would simply suggest that usage of Ireland to refer to the state falls into three categories:

1. Usage where we would pipe-link because no confusion arises.

2. Legal usage which comes with definitions and acquired meanings. Moreover this usage is insisted upon by the Irish government and so can hardly be taken as a sign of common usage.

3. Usage which which implies, or states explicitly, that Northern Ireland is not part of Ireland which, simply put, is both artificial and inaccurate.

Now I'll get back to the first argument. That Ireland clearly is the official name of the state is a lousy reason for renaming the article. Very few countries have their official names as their article name on Wikipedia and two of them, the US and the UK, use shortened forms.

Arguments in support of the legal name are typically phrased along the lines of right, sometimes moral or sovereign. And Irish editors who oppose changes are effectively labelled as West brits.

"This continued imposition of Unionist/British POV on the article title is outrageous, bizarre, unacceptable and contrary to Wiki policy. Only the numerical superiority of British editors forces such a blatantly politically loaded "description" on the country of Ireland." - Sarah777 ^[link]

"No lunacy; this is a matter of Wiki policy which neither Scolaire, yourself nor the defenders of the British 1949 Act can continue to impose on Ireland." - Sarah777 ^[link]

"it's surprising to me that some editors, Irish in particular, would want Sovereign Ireland to be known by its political description, and not as Ireland or Ireland(state). It's a bit like calling the UK the The Monarchy of Britain. ROI is not the name of sovereign Ireland, it's not even an alternate name, it's merely a description of its politique." - Gold Heart ^[link]

Yet Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a forum for the attainment of justice or redress against historic wrongs. We have to approach the issues from what's best for the encyclopedia and that is not just use the legal name. The word Ireland is confusing. No amount of law can change that.

Moreover the legal argument seeks to use Wikipedia's guidelines against what they intended. The guideline that legal names constitute appropriate names for disputed entities, is written on the clear assumption that the legal names of countries fall in line with "Republic of here", "Kingdom of there" and "People's Republic of Somewhere Else". It is on this line that the Macedonian state resides at Republic of Macedonia and not Macedonia. Ireland, the state, bucks that trend. If the rule on legal names applied, the result would be exactly the opposite of what it was intended to be.

Why Ireland shouldn't be a disambiguation page

The locus classicus of a disambiguation page is a term which has entirely different meaning of which readers may not be aware. Thus Georgia may be a US State or a country in the Caucasus. Anyone who types Georgia in the search bar already knows what they're looking for and doesn't need an explanation over why the term is ambiguous.

This can't be said for Ireland. The term "Ireland" is ambiguous but - and forgive me for stating the obvious - the different meaning are not entirely disassociated. Ireland is neither simply an island nor even just a state, but rather a social, cultural and historical entity. It is this entity which people typing "Ireland" in Wikipedia's search bar want to find out about, and what the Ireland article should be about.

Offering readers a bare disambiguation page with choice of two articles (island or state) is unfair as it expects them to understand why the term is ambiguous before we have an opportunity to explain why this is so. There is plenty of room within the Ireland article to explain and elaborate upon this ambiguity, which would lost in a disambiguation page which could only server to confuse rather than to educate.

Users that endorse this summary

Users that oppose this summary

MusicInTheHouse (talk) 15:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--Domer48_'fenian' 15:36, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--HighKing (talk) 10:40, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Redking7 (talk) 00:09, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--Snowded (talk) 12:26, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
RashersTierney (talk) 10:41, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
ClemMcGann (talk) 13:56, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
86.44.111.162 (talk) 00:56, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--T*85 (talk) 00:17, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Jack forbes (talk) 20:31, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Robertbyrne (talk) 22:19, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Weeman com (talk) 19:41, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ω ENGLISH LOCK Ω 13:19, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by BritishWatcher

I would just like to clarify 3 points.

Ireland is the third-largest island in Europe, and the twentieth-largest island in the world.

Ireland is an island country in north-western Europe. The modern sovereign state occupies about five-sixths of the island of Ireland, which was partitioned by the British on 3 May 1921.

Ambiguity is the property of being ambiguous, where a word, term, notation, sign, symbol, phrase, sentence, or any other form used for communication, is called ambiguous if it can be interpreted in more than one way.

Users that endorse this summary

Users that oppose this summary

Statement by HighKing

Ireland can be used to refer to many different things, but is mainly used to refer to either the island or the modern state. Ambiguity exists for this term.

Using the term Republic of Ireland to refer to the modern Irish state causes division among editors and, regardless of the reasons or the rights and wrongs, has resulted in much disruption and edit warring over a wide range of articles. To avoid future disruption, a binding agreement from both sides is required.

Users that endorse this summary

Users that oppose this summary

Statement by BrownhairedGirl

Having ~~reach~~ read through the statements made so far by others, it seems to me that there may be some disagreement not just on the naming of the articles but on some points which editors on both sides of the argument consider to be fundamental.

I am therefore making this statement as a series of short propositions, in an attempt to measure support for each of them.

My hope is that the responses here will help us to identify any fundamental disagreements, as well as to hopefully find many points of agreement. I have restricted this list to thirteen propositions, and I do not claim that it covers a particularly wide range of topics. Please consider it as an experiment.

Proposition 1

"Ireland" is the name of an island in Europe which lies in the Atlantic ocean to the north-west of continental Europe.

Users who endorse proposition 1

BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 07:57, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
User:Jeanne boleyn--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:12, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Mooretwin (talk) 09:06, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Kittybrewster ☎ 10:05, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Nuclare (talk)
--Snowded (talk) 12:35, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Rockpocket 20:40, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
MusicInTheHouse (talk) 23:22, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
RashersTierney (talk) 10:45, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
ClemMcGann (talk) 13:58, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
— Blue-Haired Lawyer 14:39, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--HighKing (talk) 13:11, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
waggers (talk) 14:29, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
78.152.254.197 (talk) 00:44, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
ras52 (talk) 18:41, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sarah777 (talk) 22:09, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
86.44.111.162 (talk) 00:56, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:20, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 21:41, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Jaqian (talk) 14:11, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse. BigDunc^Talk 15:05, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Robertbyrne (talk) 22:21, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
~Asarlaí 16:47, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:27, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ω ENGLISH LOCK Ω 13:21, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Users who oppose proposition 1

Proposition 2

"Ireland" is the name of an independent state which covers approximately five-sixths of the island called "Ireland".

Users who endorse proposition 2

Users who oppose proposition 2

Proposition 3

The English-language name of the state is defined in Article 4 of the Constitution of Ireland, which says in full: "The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland."

Users who endorse proposition 3

BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 07:57, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
User:Jeanne boleyn
Nuclare (talk)
--Snowded (talk) 12:36, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Rockpocket 20:40, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
MusicInTheHouse (talk) 23:22, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Kittybrewster ☎ 23:37, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
RashersTierney (talk) 10:47, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
ClemMcGann (talk) 13:59, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
— Blue-Haired Lawyer 14:39, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--HighKing (talk) 13:19, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
waggers (talk) 14:29, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
78.152.254.197 (talk) 00:44, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
ras52 (talk) 18:41, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sarah777 (talk) 22:10, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
86.44.111.162 (talk) 00:56, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:20, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 21:42, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Jaqian (talk) 14:12, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
BigDunc^Talk 15:05, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Robertbyrne (talk) 22:22, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
~Asarlaí 16:47, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:27, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ω ENGLISH LOCK Ω 13:22, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Users who oppose proposition 3

Proposition 4

The description of the state is defined in law as "the Republic of Ireland", by Section 2 of the Republic of Ireland Act 1948, which says in full: "It is hereby declared that the description of the State shall be the Republic of Ireland."

Users who endorse proposition 4

Users who oppose proposition 4

Sarah777 (talk) 22:11, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
MusicInTheHouse (talk) 12:37, 25 March 2009

Off topic text added by Snowded was removed from this section by Gnevin. This may lead to a confusing flow in this section's text. For the original text see [8].

Proposition 5

The phrase "Republic of Ireland" is not the official name of the 26-county state, either in statute law or in the constitution

Users who endorse proposition 5

Users who oppose proposition 5

— Blue-Haired Lawyer 14:39, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
misleading. technically no but the words are just about always used to clarify. Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:20, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Proposition 6

The official name of the state is the same as the name of the island

Users who endorse proposition 6

Users who oppose proposition 6

Proposition 7

The following statement was true in 1998: "Lough Neagh is a lake in Ireland"

Users who endorse proposition 7

BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 07:57, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
User:Jeanne boleyn
Mooretwin (talk) 09:08, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Kittybrewster ☎ 10:08, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Nuclare (talk)
Rockpocket 20:40, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
MusicInTheHouse (talk) 23:23, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--Snowded (talk) 06:22, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
RashersTierney (talk) 10:50, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
ClemMcGann (talk) 14:01, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
— Blue-Haired Lawyer 14:39, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--HighKing (talk) 13:19, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
78.152.254.197 (talk) 00:41, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
ras52 (talk) 18:41, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
86.44.111.162 (talk) 18:29, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:20, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 21:44, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Jaqian (talk) 14:14, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
BigDunc^Talk 15:12, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
~Asarlaí 16:47, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:29, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ω ENGLISH LOCK Ω 13:24, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Users who oppose proposition 7

Sarah777 (talk) 22:14, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Proposition 8

The following statement was true in 1798: "Lough Neagh is a lake in Ireland"

Users who endorse proposition 8

BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 07:57, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
User:Jeanne boleyn
Mooretwin (talk) 09:08, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Kittybrewster ☎ 10:09, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Nuclare (talk)
--Snowded (talk) 12:38, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Rockpocket 20:40, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
MusicInTheHouse (talk) 23:23, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
RashersTierney (talk) 10:50, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
ClemMcGann (talk) 14:02, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
— Blue-Haired Lawyer 14:39, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--HighKing (talk) 13:19, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
78.152.254.197 (talk) 00:41, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
ras52 (talk) 18:41, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
86.44.111.162 (talk) 18:30, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:20, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 21:44, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Jaqian (talk) 14:14, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
BigDunc^Talk 15:11, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
~Asarlaí 16:47, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:29, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ω ENGLISH LOCK Ω 13:25, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Users who oppose proposition 8

Sarah777 (talk) 22:16, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Proposition 9

The following statement has always been false: "Lough Neagh is a lake in Ireland"

Users who endorse proposition 9

Users who oppose proposition 9

BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 07:57, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
User:Jeanne boleyn
Mooretwin (talk) 09:08, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Kittybrewster ☎ 10:09, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Nuclare (talk)
--Snowded (talk) 12:38, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Rockpocket 20:40, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
MusicInTheHouse (talk) 23:23, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
RashersTierney (talk) 10:53, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
ClemMcGann (talk) 14:02, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
— Blue-Haired Lawyer 14:39, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--HighKing (talk) 13:19, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
78.152.254.197 (talk) 00:40, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
ras52 (talk) 18:41, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sarah777 (talk) 22:17, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
86.44.111.162 (talk) 18:20, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:20, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 21:45, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Jaqian (talk) 14:19, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
BigDunc^Talk 15:11, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Robertbyrne (talk) 22:24, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
~Asarlaí 16:47, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:30, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ω ENGLISH LOCK Ω 13:25, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Proposition 10

An event which happened in Belfast in 1890 could accurately be described as having happened in Ireland

Users who endorse proposition 10

BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 07:57, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
User:Jeanne boleyn
Mooretwin (talk) 09:09, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Kittybrewster ☎ 10:09, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Nuclare (talk)
Rockpocket 20:40, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
MusicInTheHouse (talk) 23:23, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--Snowded (talk) 06:23, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
RashersTierney (talk) 10:54, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
ClemMcGann (talk) 14:04, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
waggers (talk) 23:14, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
— Blue-Haired Lawyer 14:39, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--HighKing (talk) 13:19, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
78.152.254.197 (talk) 00:40, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
ras52 (talk) 18:41, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sarah777 (talk) 22:18, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
86.44.111.162 (talk) 18:20, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:20, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 21:45, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Jaqian (talk) 14:15, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
BigDunc^Talk 15:10, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
~Asarlaí 16:47, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:30, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ω ENGLISH LOCK Ω 13:25, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Users who oppose proposition 10

Proposition 11

An event which happened in Belfast in 2008 could accurately be described as having happened in Ireland

Users who endorse proposition 11

BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 07:57, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Mooretwin (talk) 09:09, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Kittybrewster ☎ 10:10, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Nuclare (talk)
--Snowded (talk) 12:39, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
MusicInTheHouse (talk) 23:23, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
ClemMcGann (talk) 14:06, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
— Blue-Haired Lawyer 14:39, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
78.152.254.197 (talk) 00:39, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
ras52 (talk) 18:41, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
86.44.111.162 (talk) 18:20, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
depends on context. Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:20, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 21:46, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Jaqian (talk) 14:18, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
BigDunc^Talk 15:10, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
~Asarlaí 16:47, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ω ENGLISH LOCK Ω 13:26, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Users who oppose proposition 11

User:Jeanne boleyn Off topic text added by Jeanne boleyn was removed from this section by Gnevin. This may lead to a confusing flow in this section's text. For the original text see [9].
waggers (talk) 23:00, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--HighKing (talk) 13:19, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sarah777 (talk) 22:18, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
True, but creates too many ambiguities to be useful.--Scott Mac (Doc) 15:43, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:31, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Proposition 12

A person born in the Bogside area of Derry in 1950 was born in Ireland

Users who endorse proposition 12

BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 07:57, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
User:Jeanne boleyn In principal, I endorse it.
Mooretwin (talk) 09:10, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Kittybrewster ☎ 10:11, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Nuclare (talk)
MusicInTheHouse (talk) 23:23, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--Snowded (talk) 06:24, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
ClemMcGann (talk) 14:07, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
— Blue-Haired Lawyer 14:39, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
78.152.254.197 (talk) 00:39, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
ras52 (talk) 18:41, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
86.44.111.162 (talk) 18:20, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 21:46, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
BigDunc^Talk 15:10, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
~Asarlaí 16:47, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ω ENGLISH LOCK Ω 13:28, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Users who oppose proposition 12

waggers (talk) 23:11, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
True, but creates to many ambiguities to be useful.--Scott Mac (Doc) 15:44, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
per preceding Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:20, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
per preceding SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:32, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Proposition 13

When Ireland was partitioned under the Government of Ireland Act 1920, Omagh ceased to be a town in Ireland

Users who endorse proposition 13

User:Jeanne boleyn. Off topic text added by Jeanne boleyn was removed from this section by Gnevin. This may lead to a confusing flow in this section's text. For the original text see [10].
MusicInTheHouse (talk) 23:23, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
waggers (talk) 23:08, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--HighKing (talk) 13:19, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sarah777 (talk) 22:20, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Users who oppose proposition 13

BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 07:57, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Mooretwin (talk) 09:10, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Kittybrewster ☎ 10:11, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Nuclare (talk)
--Snowded (talk) 12:39, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
— Blue-Haired Lawyer 14:39, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
78.152.254.197 (talk) 00:38, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
ras52 (talk) 18:41, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
86.44.111.162 (talk) 18:20, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
False, taken one way, but creates too many ambiguities to be useful.--Scott Mac (Doc) 15:46, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:15, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 21:47, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
BigDunc^Talk 15:09, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Robertbyrne (talk) 22:25, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
~Asarlaí 16:47, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:34, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ω ENGLISH LOCK Ω 13:28, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement 1 by Kittybrewster

It seems to me that many of these statements would get more support and or opposition if they were shorter. This applies particularly where they present perceived facts and then arrive at possible arguable potential conclusions.

Users that endorse this summary

Users that oppose this summary

Statement 2 by Kittybrewster

Ireland should only be used as the page that describes the 26 county state.

Users that endorse this summary

Robertbyrne (talk) 22:49, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Users that oppose this summary

Statement by 78.152.253.163 (talk)

Part 1: Background

"Ireland" is a proper noun that can refer to two things: an island and a contemporary state:

Use of the term to refer to the island has developed etymologically from ancient roots and is perceived as 'natural' and 'uncontroversial'.

Use of the term to refer to state is complicated by the fact that the current territory of current state known by that name is not the equal to the territory of the island:
- Prior to 1801 successive states existed that were known as "Ireland".
  - These states were the same in territorial extent as the island.
- Between 1801 and 1920 a constituent country of the United Kingdom was known as "Ireland"
  - This country was the same in territorial extent as the island.
- Between 1920 and 1937, "Ireland" referred exclusively to the island.
- In 1937 a new state was enacted:
  - This state was called "Ireland" in its constitution
  - This state was defined has having the same in territorial extent as the island in its constitution.
  - The constitutional name of this state and it territorial claim were initially not internationally recognised.
    - The Irish-language name of the state (Éire) were used to refer to it.
    - Over the subsequent decades the name of the state became internationally recognised
    - The claimed territorial extent of the state was never internationally recognised.
  - In 1949, the state "described" itself as "Republic of Ireland"
    - This terminology was immediately internationally recognised.
    - This terminology replaced "Éire" as the common means to refer to the state without using its constitutional name.
  - In 1999, as part of an agreement with the United Kingdom (with which the state disputed its territory), the state ceased to be territorially equal to the island under its own constitution.
    - Under that agreement, the United Kingdom agreed to recongise the state by whatever name it referred to itself by.

Both senses of the word "Ireland" can be described as a being a "country". Only the sense of the word that means the state can be described as being a "state".

Part 2: Usage

In most cases, use of the term "Ireland" can be assumed to mean the island. E.g.:

A book called "The History Ireland" will almost certainly mean the history of the island, its occupants and their history. It is very unlikely to refer only to the history of the state by that name, 1937-present.
A talk on the "geography of Ireland" will almost certainly mean the geography of the island. It is very unlikely to refer only the the geography of the territory of the state by that name, 1937-present.
Discussion of the "culture of Ireland" will almost certainly mean the culture of the island, meaning the culture of its inhabitants. It is very unlikely to refer only to the history of the sate by that name, 1937-present.
A website about the "politics of Ireland" will very likely mean the politics of the island, meaning the politics of the states and constituent country that existed on the island before 1920 and the politics of the two jurisdictions that have existed on the island since then. It is unlikely to refer only to the politics of the sate by that name, 1937-present.
A TV documentary about the "literature of Ireland" will almost certainly mean the literature of the island, meaning the literature created by its inhabitants. It is very unlikely to refer only to the literature of the sate by that name, 1937-present.
A meteorological report predicting the weather in "Ireland" will almost certainly mean the island. It is very unlikely to refer only to the weather in the territory of the sate by that name, 1937-present.
A sporting organisation representing "Ireland" will almost certainly mean the island, and represent clubs and players from the across the island. It is very unlikely to represent only clubs and players from the territory of the sate by that name, 1937-present.
A guidebook for travelers to "Ireland" will almost certainly mean the island. It is very unlikely to refer only to the sate by that name, 1937-present.

There are some areas when "Ireland" should be understood unequivocally to mean the state e.g. a "citizen of Ireland" means a citizen of the sate by that name, 1937-present. These circumstances are limited to areas that, by their context, can be understood to refer to the business of contemporary state and its apparatus.

When necessary to distinguish between the two "Ireland"s, alternative terminology is used to refer to the state (e.g. "Éire", "Republic of Ireland", "the Republic", "the 26 counties", "the south"). No alternative terminology is used to disambiguate the island, which is always called "Ireland". (Rarely from the clarifier, "the island of Ireland", is used for emphasis.)

Part 3: Ireland (and Republic of Ireland) on Wikipedia

On 14 October 2001 an article was created at Ireland that dealt with both the island, its geography, politics and culture. (A lengthy paragraph on the the state was copied-and-pasted from the CIA Worldbook.)
On 15 November 2002 the section dealing with the state was moved to Republic of Ireland and the article at Ireland became a disambiguation page between articles at Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland.
On 18 January 2003 the disambiguation page at Ireland became an article on the island, its geography, history, politics and culture.

The article on the island, is the 252th most linked to article on Wikipedia (20,756 links). Last month, the article on the island as viewed 325,538 times making it the 467th most viewed article on the English-language Wikipedia.

The article on the state is the 797th most linked to article on Wikipedia (7,672 links). Last month, the article on the state as viewed 132,571 times making it the 1,877th most viewed article on the English-language Wikipedia.

(See Special:MostLinkedPages and stats.grok.se.)

Users that endorse this summary

Kittybrewster ☎ 00:14, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:59, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Mooretwin (talk) 11:20, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
ClemMcGann (talk) 14:11, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
— Blue-Haired Lawyer 14:28, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
ras52 (talk) 15:46, 20 March 2009 (UTC) (with some reservations about parts of 2)[reply]
Fmph (talk) 12:41, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 21:49, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Users that oppose this summary

MusicInTheHouse (talk) 00:54, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--Domer48_'fenian' 09:06, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose P.2., agree with other parts --HighKing (talk) 13:25, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:59, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MusicInTheHouse

1. Ireland is the name of the island west of Great Britain.
2. Ireland is the official name of the sovereign state that occupies 5/6 of the above island.
3. There are two primary different meanings of the word 'Ireland' both of which are equally acceptable and correct.
4. Republic of Ireland is not an official name of the sovereign state called Ireland.
5. Republic of Ireland is an acceptable disambiguator on articles where there is obvious potential confusion as the term "Ireland" can be used many different times in many different ways in such articles. eg. Ireland (island), Northern Ireland, History of Ireland etc.
6. Island of Ireland is also a potentially acceptable disambiguator that can be used to differentiate the two main "Irelands".
7. However, use of Republic of Ireland in articles where it is obvious it is the sovereign state being referred to, could be seen as misleading as it may cause a reader of Wikipedia to wrongly interpret that Republic of Ireland is the/an official name of the state.

Users that endorse this summary

--78.152.249.182 (talk) 18:59, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
----Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:20, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Lucian Sunday (talk) 18:51, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Rockpocket 20:10, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
waggers (talk) 23:17, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
RashersTierney (talk) 12:22, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--HighKing (talk) 13:10, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
PurpleA (talk) 12:27, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
ras52 (talk) 18:42, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
MusicInTheHouse (talk) 00:42, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
86.44.111.162 (talk) 18:49, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--T*85 (talk) 00:12, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fmph (talk) 12:39, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Robertbyrne (talk) 22:41, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Users that oppose this summary

Valenciano (talk) 20:08, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Mooretwin (talk) 09:40, 16 March 2009 (UTC) - Discussion regarding the opposition is located here.[reply]

Statement by RashersTierney

The name of the state has been a matter of vigorous contention between the Irish government and the government of the United Kingdom. Among those contested names were Eire and 'Republic of Ireland'. Since the Good Friday/Belfast Agreement, those terms, as names, are deprecated by the UK government in favour of 'Ireland'. Use of 'Republic of Ireland' as a name for the state, or by extension, a Wikipedia article about the state, is not value neutral.

Users that endorse this summary

--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:42, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
waggers (talk) 21:36, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--Domer48_'fenian' 13:22, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--HighKing (talk) 13:26, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
MusicInTheHouse (talk) 00:37, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Redking7 (talk) 09:27, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
86.44.111.162 (talk) 18:52, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Jack forbes (talk) 20:16, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
RashersTierney (talk) 09:28, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Users that oppose this summary

Second statement by Blue-Haired Lawyer

[ed. per User:BrownHairedGirl's suggestion I have decided to split up the points so that editors can decide to support or oppose on a point-by-point basis. Sorry about the mess. — Blue-Haired Lawyer 19:01, 25 March 2009 (UTC) ][reply]

This is my second statement. It attempts to condense down my core opinions relating to the naming dispute, and addresses issues about how to refer to the Irish state and the island away from the core articles, currently named Ireland and Republic of Ireland.

Point 1

It is important to inform readers that the official name of the Irish state is Ireland, but this point does not have primacy over all other issues relating to Ireland-related articles.

Users that endorse point 1

Users that oppose point 1

Redking7 (talk) 09:35, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Too vague --HighKing (talk) 14:20, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
-- RÓNÁN "Caint / Talk" 09:17, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Point 2

Readers should be able to tell, without guesswork or prior knowledge, whether or not an article they're reading relates to the island, the state or to Northern Ireland.

Users that endorse point 2

Users that oppose point 2

Point 3

It should not be necessary for every article relating to Ireland to address the naming dispute or explain what the article means when it says "Ireland".

Users that endorse point 3

Users that oppose point 3

Statement by Bastun

Ireland is ambiguous

This is self-evident.

A certain group of users are extremely insistent that the article on the state must reside on the page titled after the official name of that state and that this should supplant the article on the island.

A certain group of users are extremely insistent that the article should reside at Republic of Ireland as the use of the state's own official description is a workable counter to the ambiguity.

A certain group of users has proposed an "equal misery" compromise whereby disambig tags are added after the title (Ireland (Island) and Ireland (state).

The debate rears its head at periods ranging from weeks to months, but won't go away, despite a lack of consensus for a change. This is a content dispute, and therefore usually outside Arbcom's remit, but an Arbcom resolution might at least put an end to this for once and for all.

A characteristic of the debate has been polls conducted in sometimes unusual places, including a task force apparently set up to decide the issue, which hasn't always advertised itself and its polls as well as it might.

Disambiguation is needed;
Republic of Ireland is workable, unambiguous, and uses the state's own official description, per legislation;
It doesn't allow the state to reside at a page called by its official name, but so what? There are literally dozens of country articles in the Wiki not on the official name of their state;
For quite some time an acceptable compromise of pipelinking Republic of Ireland as Ireland in appropriate places was working fine - no reason it can't be used again.

Users that endorse this summary

Users that oppose this summary

Statement by One Night In Hackney

There seems to be an article missing.

What with all this talk of moving [[Ireland]] to [[Ireland (island)]] , people seem to have forgotten that there is also a country called Ireland. Not the 26 county state either, the country called Ireland that existed prior to partition.

So will the birthplace of Michael Collins be piped as [[Ireland (island)|Ireland]]? Seems ridiculous to me, he was born in a country called Ireland not just on an island.

Perhaps those in favour of moving [[Ireland]] to [[Ireland (island)]] will let things go back to how they used to be, when people’s birthplaces were piped as [[United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland|Ireland]]? But this was discussed already, and the same doesn’t happen with England, Scotland or Wales so why should Ireland be piped that way? Ireland did not cease being a country with the Act of Union, and neither did England, Scotland or Wales.

So are those in favour of moving the moving [[Ireland]] to [[Ireland (island)]] in favour of creating an [[Ireland (historical country)]] article? If not, how else are you going to fix the problems you create.

As for the rest I don’t really care one way or another, too much time has been wasted fighting political battles when far more constructive things could have been done. As such I have no intention of getting involved in the pointless bickering, save for me pointing out the rather substantial flaw in the plans of some people.

Users that endorse this summary

Users that oppose this summary

Statement by Domer48 (2)

I requested in my original Collaboration Statement here that editors provided supporting evidence of the term "Ireland" being ambiguous. To date, only User:Rockpocket has made any attempt to do so. User:Rockpocket provided three sources, none of which support the contention that the term "Ireland" is ambiguous.

The Irish Free State/Éire/Republic of Ireland/Ireland: “A Country by Any Other Name”?. Journal of British Studies 46 (January 2007): 72–90.
The Irish governments website about Irelands geography
Éamon de Valera. Printed debates Dáil Éireann (PDDE), vol. 67, 25 May 1937, col. 948.

Thank you User:Rockpocket for providing the above links.

On the issue of the name of the country, the European Union is very clear and unambiguous. The names of the Member States of the European Union must always be written and abbreviated according to clearly defined rules. On Ireland, in clear and set terms is attached the following note: Do not use ‘Republic of Ireland’ nor ‘Irish Republic’.

The Constitution of Ireland (BUNREACHT NA hÉIREANN) is very clear and unambiguous as to the name of the Country, Article 4 of the Constitution of Ireland states that: "The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland."

The Republic of Ireland Act, 1948, is very clear and unambiguous when it states that “It is hereby declared that the description of the State shall be the Republic of Ireland.”

The World Bank, on its list of countries, is very clear and unambiguous as to the name of the country.

The United Nations don’t have a problem with the name of the country. The list of United Nations Member States is very clear and unambiguous as to the name of the country.

The International Monetary Fund (IMF) don’t have a problem with the name of the country. The International Monetary Fund (IMF) reports and publications arranged by country is very clear and unambiguous as to the name of the country.

Ireland is an internationally recognised country which is very clear and unambiguous, supported by the above referenced sources. No source has or can be provided which challenge this fact. Based on the above, the country article on Ireland should be simply that, “Ireland.”

The article titled “Republic of Ireland” should be about the descriptive term for the country and the history of the term, and should not contain or duplicate the information from the Ireland article.

“Republic of Ireland” should not be pipe linked when referring to Ireland, as is the case with the EU outlined above. When referring to Northern Ireland, in Ireland related articles it should be linked accordingly.

The only place were the term "Ireland" is considered ambiguous is on Wikipedia, and it should be addressed because its ridiculous.

Users that endorse this summary

85% endorse --HighKing (talk) 10:47, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse. BigDunc^Talk 15:02, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
MusicInTheHouse (talk) 21:31, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
99% endorse Robertbyrne (talk) 22:38, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Users that oppose this summary

Statement by BrownHairedGirl

The term "Republic of Ireland" as the name for the 26-county state has been repeatedly used by the Oireachtas. It is therefore wrong to suggest that it is some sort of imposition by those outside Ireland or that its use on wikipedia breaches the Wikipedia's principle of neutrality.

In several statute laws, not only has "Republic of Ireland" been used as the name of the state, but "Ireland" has actually been as meaning "The Republic of Ireland", e.g.

The phrase "Republic of Ireland" has also been used in many other contexts in Acts of the Oireachtas and in statutory instruments. A Google search for the phrase "Republic of Ireland" returns 114 hits. Not all of those will be unique, but the documents returned include both Acts of the Oireachtas and Statutory instruments.

The term "Republic of Ireland" continues to be used by govt bodies and others. See for example:

http://www.revenue.ie/en/business/isle-man-intro.html -- "Ireland" means the Republic of Ireland
http://www.pcs.agriculture.gov.ie/Docs/Dual Labels -UK-Ireland Guidance Document.doc "To qualify for joint labels, extant approval must be held for the product in both the UK and the Republic of Ireland with the same conditions of use"
64 hits on the Dept of Agriculture website
59 results on the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government website
27 hits on the website of the Dept of Energy, Communications and Natural Resources
19 hits on the website of the Dept of Arts, Sport and Tourism
19 hits on the website the Dept of Community, Gaeltacht and Rural Affairs
256 hits on the website of Dept of Social and Family Aaffairs
199 hits on the website of the Dept of Health and Children
Two press releases from the Dept of Justice: 2008 and 2007
200 hits on the Dept of Foreign Affairs website
49 google hits on the Dept of Transport (The Dept's internal search appears to be broken)
104 Google hits on the Dept of Finance website

It is also used by commercial bodies and other non-state entities:

Users that endorse this summary

Users that oppose this summary

MusicInTheHouse (talk) 23:11, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
PurpleA (talk) 06:10, 2 April 2009 (UTC) Original research, contrary to WP:OR.[reply]
HighKing (talk) 10:49, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Redking7 (talk) 23:20, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statements on problem 1

Statement by Rockpocket

The dispute over the primary article subject for the term "Ireland" has raged for years. Both supporters of the Island, and those who support having the State at under this title, have provided numerous lines of evidence in support of either argument. These include Ghits, historical precedence, legal and constitutional support, scholarly preference, self reference and comparison to other Wikipedia articles. Some arguments are convincing, others less so. Ultimately, without a quantitative metric to evaluate which line of evidence is more important, we are left with qualitative interpretations.

If one thing is clear from this dispute, it is that qualitative value lies entirely in the eyes of the respective beholders, and there is no incentive to shift that value system. Given this, there will be no consensus based on qualitative interpretation. Given that, there will never be agreement on a primary topic. Therefore, it seems self evident that the only solution that could ever reach significant consensus is a disambiguation. I therefore propose that The content of the page called "Ireland" is a simple (short) disambiguation page (solution C). Rockpocket 20:53, 1 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Users that endorse this summary

waggers (talk) 11:26, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Bazza (talk) 15:00, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
MusicInTheHouse (talk) 16:10, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Redking7 (talk) 22:13, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
ras52 (talk) 11:49, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Off topic text added by HighKing was removed from this section by Gnevin. This may lead to a confusing flow in this section's text. For the original text see [11].--HighKing (talk) 10:59, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--Snowded (talk) 12:29, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:45, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
RashersTierney (talk) 11:03, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
86.44.111.162 (talk) 19:09, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--T*85 (talk) 00:07, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Users that oppose this summary

~ R.T.G 11:05, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Mooretwin (talk) 13:00, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
— Blue-Haired Lawyer 16:35, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Waggers

Statement

Assertion 1: "Ireland" is ambiguous

It could refer to the island, it could refer to the state, it could refer to someone with the surname Ireland, and I'm sure there are other uses too. Without knowing the context of the search, someone entering "Ireland" into a search engine, including Wikipedia's, could be looking for any of the above.

Assertion 2: there is no primary topic

Someone using "Ireland" as a search time is more probably looking for information on the island or on the state than the other uses of the term. However, between island and state, there is no established primary topic. I would hazard a guess that more people would be referring to the state than the island when talking about "Ireland", but that is just a guess.

Assertion 3: both the state and the island have alternative names

Both the island and the state have alternative English names.

Republic of Ireland is a well known alternative for the state, and is currently where the state article resides on WP.
Eire might originate from a different language (as indeed most English words do), but is in common use in English too as an alternative name for the island.
The Emerald Isle is another alternative name for the island, but most would recognise this as a nickname rather than something official. (However, WP policy requires us to use the most commonly used name, whether that's "official" or otherwise).

Assertion 4: best practice outranks tradition

"Doing what we've always done because that's the way we've always done it" is not the Wikipedia way. We are striving to make the best encyclopaedia possible, and when it comes to decisions like this, that means ignoring the current situation and trying to figure out what the best way of doing things is, and then make the necessary changes. In other words, any argument along the lines of "changing the status quo would take a lot of work, so let's not do it" shouldn't be admissible here. We're looking to do what's best for our readers, not what's easiest for us.

Assertion 5: (less important consideration, but still valid) Country names are important to people; using alternatives to the official name causes disruption to Wikipedia

People get incredibly passionate about the name of their country and how their country is represented. It's that passion that has brought us to this situation. The lesson to learn from this is that people place more importance on what their nation is called than on what the lump of rock their nation sits on is called. So if either the state or the island has to take precidence, and if all other things are equal (and I'm suggesting they are), then I would argue that the state holds a bigger claim to the name "Ireland" than the island does.

People feeling passionately about something is, rightly, rarely a consideration on Wikipedia. In fact, rules like WP:CENSOR show that such things aren't really to be considered at all. But WP:IAR says that if the rules are getting in the way of improving the encyclopaedia then ignore them. So if putting the state article at "Ireland", or making "Ireland" a disambiguation page, stops the disruption we've seen then let's do it: it would improve the encyclopaedia.

The problem is, that last "if" is quite a big one too; personally, I think the probability is fairly low that the disruption would simply stop by moving the state article to "Ireland", so this consideration is a minor one in relation to assertions 1-4.

Assertion 6: Ireland should be a disambiguation page

If there was a single primary topic, then that should reside at Ireland with a hatnote to a disambiguation page. But there is no primary topic (or, more precisely, there are two primary topics).

Ignoring assertion 5 for a moment, if precisely one of the primary topics had a commonly used alternative name, and the other didn't, then it would be reasonable to have the article with no alternative name at Ireland and the other article given the commonly used alternative name. But in this case, both entities have commonly used alternative names, so there's still no way to decide which, if either, should sit at "Ireland". If we bring assertion 5 into play, the argument for having the state article at Ireland carries more weight than having the island article there - but that weight is insufficient to tip the balance away from the need for Ireland to be a disambiguation page. Indeed, assertions that "Republic of Ireland" is a more common alternative for the state than "Eire" et al are for the island may be enough to put the balance firmly in the centre, meaning that having a disambiguation page at Ireland is the only way forward.

Users that endorse this summary

Bazza (talk) 15:03, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Rockpocket 01:16, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Off topic text added by Redking7 was removed from this section by Gnevin. This may lead to a confusing flow in this section's text. Redking7 (talk) 09:12, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
ras52 (talk) 12:03, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
MusicInTheHouse (talk) 15:26, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Daicaregos (talk) 16:58, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--Snowded (talk) 12:34, 12 March 2009 (UTC) Off topic text added by Snowded was removed from this section by Gnevin. This may lead to a confusing flow in this section's text. [reply]
RashersTierney (talk) 11:06, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
86.44.111.162 (talk) 19:13, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--T*85 (talk) 00:10, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Except Assertion 3 --HighKing (talk) 14:23, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Users that oppose this summary

Mooretwin (talk) 13:02, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--Domer48_'fenian' 15:42, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fmph (talk) 01:22, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
~ R.T.G 01:58, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Mooretwin (Problem 1)

(A) Page contains "The island of Ireland"

Presentism should be avoided. The primary meaning of "Ireland" is clearly the larger, island unit. The 26-county unit has been in existence for less than one hundred years compared with the island's existence for many millennia. Indeed, the 26-county unit takes its name from the larger, island unit.

People generally who talk about Ireland usually mean the island. Someone "going to Ireland" does not generally distinguish between North and South. Someone from Northern Ireland who says that he is from Ireland will not generally be mistaken as coming from the 26-county state, but will generally be understood as coming from the island of Ireland.

People from, and places and things in, Northern Ireland are no less part of Ireland than are people, places or things in the 26-county state.

The use of "Ireland" to mean 26 counties rather than the whole island is not only offensive to unionists in Northern Ireland, but also to many Northern nationalists: In 2008, Sinn Féin MLA Barry McElduff wrote to all TDs and Senators in the Republic of Ireland to complain about the 26-county state using "Ireland" to refer only to the 26 counties: "I suppose I am doing it to challenge partitionism – this notion that the 26 counties constitutes Ireland. I find it very offensive. Even in the EU I hear people talk about Ireland and Northern Ireland. Sometimes they talk about the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland. I’d call it geopolitical speak.^[1]

^ Irish News, 29/07/08. "Lessons given to southern politicians". http://www.irishnews.com/appnews/540/5860/2008/7/29/593862_352672074045Lessonsgi.html

Users that endorse this summary

R.T.G 11:24, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
— Blue-Haired Lawyer 16:37, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Valenciano (talk) 19:47, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Kittybrewster ☎ 23:20, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:29, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Users that oppose this summary

waggers (talk) 15:35, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
MusicInTheHouse (talk) 16:12, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Redking7 (talk) 09:08, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--Domer48_'fenian' 15:42, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Daicaregos (talk) 17:00, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--HighKing (talk) 10:54, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--Snowded (talk) 12:25, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
User:Jeanne boleyn
RashersTierney (talk) 11:07, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
ClemMcGann (talk) 14:12, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
86.44.111.162 (talk) 18:45, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Robertbyrne (talk) 22:40, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statements on problem 2.1

Statement by DrKiernan

Using "Republic of Ireland" as the name for an article describing the republican state comprising five-sixths of the island of Ireland is supported by eight points:

It is unambiguous, and can not be confused with the island itself or other states that do exist or have existed on the island of Ireland.
It is a commonly used term (Google searches for "Republic of Ireland" return over 5 million hits: [12]).
It is in use internationally, e.g. Columbia encyclopedia "Ireland, Republic of" and CNN "The Republic of Ireland will resume...".
It is in use in Ireland itself, e.g. ie-domain-specific google search.
It is the official description of the state, see Republic of Ireland Act 1948 section 2.
It is in use on official Irish government web-sites, e.g. the General Register Office and William Nolan, Professor of Geography at University College Dublin, on the official government of Ireland web site: "The Republic of Ireland occupies 70,282 sq. km. of the island of Ireland".
It is comparable to the article names of other divided nations, e.g. China, People's Republic of China, and Republic of China.
It can be used in prose without a piped link, where the meaning is unclear and requires disambiguation.

However, use of "Republic of Ireland" as an article name is opposed because:

It is perceived as a British-imposed or influenced construction, which some Irish editors find offensive, e.g. [13].
It is not the official name of the state, see Republic of Ireland Act 1948 section 2.

Point 1 of the opposing argument is countered by points 3, 4 and 5 of the supporting arguments: the phrase was developed by the Irish government, approved by the Irish parliament, and is in use in Ireland, both officially and unofficially. Countering these points is the argument that, despite its mention in Irish law, the phrase is nevertheless still perceived as offensive by some Irish editors.

Using "Ireland (state)" as the name for an article describing the republican state comprising five-sixths of the island of Ireland would use the official name of the state coupled with a simple disambiguator. In favour of this option are:

It uses the official name of the state.
It does not use "Republic of Ireland", which is perceived as a British-imposed or influenced construction.

However, this option is opposed by four points:

Editors from outside of Ireland have found "Ireland (state)" to be confusing, as it sounds like a state in the American or Australian sense, i.e. a province of a larger sovereign nation: e.g. [14]; compare with Georgia (state), Victoria (state).
It is unlikely to be used as a search term by readers.
It cannot be used fluidly within prose without a piped link.
It is not apparently in use by other encyclopedias as a disambiguator.

Users that endorse this summary

Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 23:30, 9 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
ras52 (talk) 09:41, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
RTG ~RTG 14:58, 12 February 2009 (UTC) Off topic text added by RTG was removed from this section by Gnevin. This may lead to a confusing flow in this section's text. For the original text see [15].[reply]
Kittybrewster ☎ 23:02, 12 February 2009 (UTC) Off topic text added by Kittybrewster was removed from this section by Gnevin. This may lead to a confusing flow in this section's text. For the original text see [16].[reply]
BritishWatcher (talk) 01:15, 13 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Djegan (talk) 14:18, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fmph (talk) 20:06, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Red King (talk) 19:45, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Rockpocket 01:06, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
waggers (talk) 11:29, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Mooretwin (talk) 13:03, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Bazza (talk) 15:06, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Phoenix (talk) 02:12, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
— Blue-Haired Lawyer 16:39, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:45, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Srnec (talk) 04:36, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:38, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Users that oppose this summary

78.16.4.12 (talk) 23:16, 11 February 2009 (UTC) Off topic text added by 78.16.4.12 was removed from this section by Gnevin. This may lead to a confusing flow in this section's text. For the original text see [17].[reply]
HighKing (talk) 14:21, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Redking7 (talk) 22:02, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
User:Jeanne boleyn --Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:20, 5 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
MusicInTheHouse (talk) 16:13, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--Snowded (talk) 12:49, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
86.44.111.162 (talk) 18:43, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Mooretwin (Problem 2.1)

On the adoption of 1A, C or D: Republic of Ireland contains "The state of Ireland"

Why make up a term that no-one uses? "Republic of Ireland" is in regular use, unlike "Ireland (state)", "Ireland (country)" or any of the other suggestions. "Republic of Ireland" is a statutory "description" of the state, which effecitvely is an alternative name. Note that it is written in the legislation as a name (i.e. capitalised): Republic of Ireland. If it were literally a description it would simply say "Ireland is a republic". It's the obvious alternative term to use.

Users that endorse this summary

Kittybrewster ☎ 17:35, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
~ R.T.G 01:58, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Mooretwin (talk) 13:46, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:33, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
— Blue-Haired Lawyer 14:31, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 21:56, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
DrKiernan (talk) 07:49, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Users that oppose this summary

User:Jeanne boleyn--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:52, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Redking7 (talk) 09:15, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
MusicInTheHouse (talk) 15:20, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--Domer48_'fenian' 15:43, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Daicaregos (talk) 17:03, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--HighKing (talk) 10:55, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--Snowded (talk) 12:31, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
RashersTierney (talk) 11:09, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
ClemMcGann (talk) 14:14, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
86.44.111.162 (talk) 18:46, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Jack forbes (talk) 20:22, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Robertbyrne (talk) 22:50, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by BrownHairedGirl (Problem 2.1)

The word "Ireland" is both the name of the island and the name of the modern state whose jurisdiction extends to only 26 of the 32 counties of that Ireland. As a result the word is ambiguous in its modern usage, both in terms of geography and of legal jurisdiction.

Luckily, there is a widely-used and understood term which resolves any ambiguity relating to the state. "Republic of Ireland" is defined in the Republic of Ireland Act as the description of the state, and this is widely used both in general usage and by the state itself: that official usage in Ireland includes Acts of the Oireachtas, Statutory instruments, and current usage by government departments.

This usage is important not just in the naming of the main article on the Republic of Ireland, but also in the naming of hundreds of related articles on issues relating the government of Ireland. No alternative formulation has been offered which removes the ambiguity inherent in phrases such as "taxation in Ireland", "roads in Ireland", or "social welfare in Ireland": all of those subjects differ on opposite sides of the border, but the ambiguity can be resolved easily by using a simple formulation:

X in Ireland" for articles relating to all 32 counties
X in the Republic of Ireland" for articles relating to the 26 counties
X in Northern Ireland" for articles relating to 6 counties

The problem is not solely that there is no alternative naming system on offer, but that some of those opposing the use of the term "Republic of Ireland" deny that any ambiguity exists. As one example, see this discussion on my talk page with an editor who insisted that the phrase "Elections in Ireland" ambiguously refers to post-1922 elections in the 26-county state, ignoring the elections to the pre-1801 Parliament of Ireland, elections from 1801-1922 (when Ireland was United under British rule) and elections in Northern Ireland. From that example, it is clear that failure to retain the phrase "Republic of Ireland" to the refer to the 26-county state will have widespread consequences for our ability to retain unambiguous names for such articles in the face of editors who claim (as in that discussion) that pointing to the distinctions is, as I was told, "attempting to introduce ambiguity to a subject where none exists".

This issue affects not only articles. There are also thousands of categories, which are currently organised under Category:Ireland (for 32-county issues), Category:Northern Ireland (for 6-county issues since 1921), and Category:Republic of Ireland (for 26-county issues since 1922). This naming structure is clear and simple, and it works, but if the head article Republic of Ireland is renamed, the category system will become an anomaly.

For these reasons, retaining the name "Republic of Ireland" for the modern 26-county state is the least-worst option available.

Users that endorse this summary

Users that oppose this summary

Statement by Rockpocket

On the event that a consensus decides "Ireland" will contain:

A disambiguation page (option C or D), or
The article on "The island of Ireland" (A)

Then, and only then, I propose:

Ireland (state) contain the article on "The state of Ireland"

Why? Because the name of the state is "Ireland". Since this proposal only applies on the event it has been decided "Ireland" will be used for another purpose, we need to find an alternative. Of those, "Ireland (country)" could be interpreted in a wider sense to refer to the entire island, and thus is ambiguous. "Ireland (republic)" is a possible alternative, but could lead so some confusion with the historical Irish Republic. "Republic of Ireland" is clearly been used as a description of the state, at least by some. But it is also clear that there is a significant demographic within Ireland that object to this term for historical and geopolitical reasons. Therefore in the interest of compromise and recognizing the principle of self identification, I suggest this title not be used if a less controversial alternative is available. This leaves "Ireland (state)". The major argument against this is that "state" could be misinterpreted (as in State (administrative division)). I acknowledge this caveat, but propose that it is not as big a concern as the other issues described above.

On the event that it is decided the page called "Ireland" should contain the article about "The state of Ireland", then this proposal is entirely void.

Users that endorse this summary

--HighKing (talk) 10:55, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--PurpleA (talk) 14:43, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
MusicInTheHouse (talk) 21:36, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Redking7 (talk) 23:32, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Users that oppose this summary

Statements on problem 2.2

Statement by DrKiernan 2.2

An article describing the geography, geology, history and peoples of the entire island of Ireland should either be at "Ireland" or "Ireland (island)". The debate over which of these two alternatives should be used focuses on:

1. whether or not there is a primary meaning of the term "Ireland"

2. whether or not the primary meaning, if there is one, is the island.

Users that endorse this summary

DrKiernan (talk) 15:46, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Kittybrewster ☎ 16:31, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
waggers (talk) 11:30, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Bazza (talk) 15:06, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Rockpocket 01:19, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
ras52 (talk) 12:05, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--HighKing (talk) 10:51, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
BritishWatcher (talk) 22:20, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--Snowded (talk) 12:30, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:36, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
RashersTierney (talk) 11:09, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Jack forbes (talk) 20:19, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 21:57, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:14, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Users that oppose this summary

Statement by Mooretwin (Problem 2.2)

On the adoption of 1B, C or D: Ireland (island) contains "The island of Ireland"

Country is ambiguous. Island is not.

Users that endorse this summary

Users that oppose this summary

--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:47, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
--Snowded (talk) 09:53, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Redking7 (talk) 09:36, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
86.44.111.162 (talk) 18:47, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
BigDunc^Talk 15:16, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Rockpocket

On the event that a consensus decides "Ireland" will contain:

A disambiguation page (option C or D), or
The article on "The state of Ireland" (B)

Then, and only then, I propose:

Ireland (island) contain the article on "The island of Ireland"

Why? Because the alternative, "Ireland (country)", is hopelessly ambiguous.

On the event that it is decided the page called "Ireland" should contain the article about "The island of Ireland", then this proposal is entirely void.

Users that endorse this summary

--HighKing (talk) 10:59, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
ras52 (talk) 11:05, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
MusicInTheHouse (talk) 21:37, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Robertbyrne (talk) 22:30, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:57, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Users that oppose this summary

[1] Irish News, 29/07/08. "Lessons given to southern politicians". http://www.irishnews.com/appnews/540/5860/2008/7/29/593862_352672074045Lessonsgi.html

[1]