- Koszalin escape room fire (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
Closer closed AfD as "merge". In terms of justified !votes, I believe there were 6 Keeps and 4 Merges (6 & 5 total). There was no delete/redirect !vote, so I could see that the discussion should be closed, but I feel either a Keep or No-consensus, along with a suggestion of opening a merge discussion was the appropriate action - consensus didn't support a forced merge. Nosebagbear (talk) 17:48, 14 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn and close (Wasn't sure if nom's should !vote again - ignore if not!) - just a clarification that relisting does seem a bit odd as technically it fell out of AfD remit once no-one wanted to delete it anymore, hence the close request. Nosebagbear (talk) 17:52, 14 January 2019 (UTC) (Struck due to clarifying no need for duplication)[reply]
- Nom's don't need to !vote again. I participated in the AfD so won't be !voting here, but I am frustrated you did not allow the closer a chance to respond and possibly amend their decision before taking this to deletion review. SportingFlyer T·C 17:58, 14 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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- Endorse as closer. I don't have much time right now to go into this very deeply. My close was based on the fact that a/ hardly anybody argued for outright deletion, b/ some of the "keep" arguments were pretty weak ("this is the first incident"), and c/ the article consisted of a mere 3 sentences (and it is not readily evident how this would be expanded, nor was there any argument brought forward during the discussion) and the target article was not very large either. In the light of all this, a merge seemed like the best solution and I still think that is the case. --Randykitty (talk) 18:33, 14 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse the result, but the discussion was defective, in that nobody made the case properly that this violates WP:NOTNEWS by being based on primary news reports rather than secondary sources. If this incident leads to changes in safety procedures for escape rooms then that should be covered in the escape room article rather than us keeping a news report in the pretence that it is an encyclopedia article. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:05, 14 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- I disagree that NOTNEWS is applicable, Phil. We're editing an encyclopaedia that's so inclusionist we're not allowed to delete articles about individual animal ghosts, individual wrestling pay-per view events, or the list of Crayola crayon colours. This is a real world incident where five teenagers died -- if Wikipedia had any proportionate or intelligible significance threshold, then this would be way over it. But I do agree that merge was a reasonable reading of that debate.—S Marshall T/C 00:10, 15 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn (to “keep or merge”). That discussion is not a consensus to merge. Also, it was not a valid AfD, there never was a valid nomination arguing a full delete (or pseudo-delete). Note the currently highly relevant discussion at Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion#Has AFD become "Articles for Discussion" ?. AfD is too clumsy to properly manage the complexities of a merge. At the target, this incident is a very special case, it should not be summarily concluded by this AfD discussion. Completion of a merge requires consensus at the target page, demonstrated at the target talk page if contested. The conclusion of the AfD was that a merge proposal should be opened. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:33, 16 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse. The attempted withdrawal of the nomination is moot, as there were !votes other than keep, so it fails WP:SKCRIT. The attempted withdrawal or changed mind of the nominator does not undermine the discussion or the result. Merge may not have been the plurality !vote, but it is not an unreasonable result based on the weight of the arguments. A consensus to merge is a valid result of a discussion at AfD; see Wikipedia:Guide to deletion#Recommendations and outcomes. A subsequent discussion about whether to merge is redundant and not required, as consensus reached to merge at AfD is substantially indistinguishable from consensus reached at the talk page. SmokeyJoe is right that AfD does not dictate how to merge; however, per WP:BOLD, a user may merge without further discussion on the article talk page, subject to reversion and discussion about how to merge. Deletion review is not the place to resolve disputes about how to merge. The merge result at AfD does not preclude a later split if the conditions of WP:SPINOUT are met. --Bsherr (talk) 01:53, 18 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- @Bsherr: - a response to a few points here: I am well aware that merge is a valid result of AfD discussions, and that when a suitable result waives a need for a duplicate discussion. Given there were Keep !votes (numerous ones), they are inherently negative responses to merge - someone who BOLD merged when a talk page discussion had split viewpoints would be rebuked. DELREV indeed, isn't a place to resolve disputes about how to merge. It is the place to resolve whether consensus was mis-interpreted. At a minimum, this AfD keep/merge split was the equivalent of a No Consensus - which should either have been a relist, or as is the case in countless AfDs, had the merge discussion back on the article in further detail. As an AfD response I can't just treat it as a BOLD merge - I'd be violating what is, currently, an AfD consensus. Nosebagbear (talk) 02:07, 18 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- The AfD is closed and can’t enforce the merge. Any interested editor should be able to challenge the merge at Talk:Escape room. If the material does not stay merged, the redirect should be reverted. I contend that the AfD does not show a consensus to merge, only that a merge could or even should be done. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:38, 18 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- @SmokeyJoe: Do you mean, assuming the close is endorsed here, that you think an AfD is never determinative of a consensus is to merge? Or just that how to merge is subject to further discussion? --Bsherr (talk) 02:52, 18 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- If the AfD discussion was a "consensus to merge" then the merge must go ahead unless or until there is a consensus at the target talk page to not merge. Traditionally, this depends on the AfD closer doing the merge, or ensuring that someone else does, and of this responsibility being neglected.
- If AfD discussion was not quite a consensus to merge, then it may be considered a suggestion within the AfD, and someone may WP:BOLDly merge, but if reverted it should not be merged until a talk page discussion finds agreement to merge.
- This DRV is examining whether the closer was correct in finding a "consensus to merge". I have argued that that was an incorrect finding. In any case, the future of the two articles, or a marged article, is a matter for consensus on article talk pages. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:59, 18 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- @Nosebagbear: I appreciate that reply. Absolutely, AfD was the place to reach consensus on the merits of a merge versus keep. And absolutely, DRV is the place to review the close to ensure it reflects consensus there. And yes, a no consensus result would have enabled a further merge discussion at the article talk page. And yes, this AfD result, if it stands, precludes a further discussion about the merits of merging. On all that, we agree. Among the issues here, the closest call is whether the close reflected consensus but, in my opinion at least, it did, on the ground that it did not meet Wikipedia:Notability (events). But it's worth considering what that result means. The redirected article was basically a stub. Right now, I think it's notability is dependent on Escape room (meaning it would not be notable but for its connection to that subject). But if that section at the merge target can be expanded to the extent that the conditions of WP:SPINOUT are met, it would be persuasive that the subject is independently notable, and nothing prevents it from being split out again. --Bsherr (talk) 02:52, 18 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse. The keep votes are all predicated on news reports being secondary, which violates established practice in this discipline (history). A closing admin needs to ignore votes that are based on fringe theories, and Randykitty did that properly. Nyttend (talk) 22:47, 18 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- User:Randykitty, could you confirm Nyttend’s vote here, and give a brief explanation to the close explaining the downweighting of the “keep” !votes? Your 18:33, 14 January 2019 statement above might be sufficient, but I think something should be added to the closing statement. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:25, 18 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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