- HTTPA (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
Groupthink. Was closed as merge, but there is no content that should be merged to HTTP (such content would immediately be removed again as inappropriate). Thus even making this into a redirect seems dubious. Should be relisted or just overturned to delete. (@Piotrus, Xaxing, A.Minkowiski, and SwisterTwister) —Ruud 10:39, 2 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- The instructions specifically state to discuss the closure with the discussion closer first, which has not been done. Since the consensus is to merge the article, there is no other way to close it. SSTflyer 10:53, 2 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- @SSTflyer: I agree that your closure was correct, there's not much to discuss about that. I was about the perform the merge, and noticed I shouldn't. I'm listing this under the "new information has come to light" clause. —Ruud 10:58, 2 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm sorry, Ruud, I'm not following. Please could you explain why this content is inappropriate for the http article?—S Marshall T/C 17:59, 2 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- WP:UNDUE, basically. It's of such marginal notability that it wouldn't even be appropriate to spend a sentence on this. —Ruud 20:30, 2 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, I see now. I think you're right. Send back to AfD for further consideration with a note to say that a merge to HTTP is not an option. Please would the DRV closer avoid the word "overturn", as this is not a reflection on the close.—S Marshall T/C 19:35, 6 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm inclined to agree with Rudd. At first glance, a merge seems like a reasonable outcome. Not enough sources to establish notability, but a logically related pre-existing article into which this could be merged. But, the real problem is, HTTPA isn't actually a thing. There's a couple of research papers from one lab, a few presentations at technical meetings, and the industry press has mentioned it a few times. But, it's not clear there's any real users, or working implementations. I was excited when I found HTTPA Reference at MSDN, until I realized it was just the "A" section of the index of HTTP-related API calls. I suspect that even a one-sentence mention in HTTP would be a violation of WP:UNDUE. -- RoySmith (talk) 19:12, 2 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: The participants should have considered the feasibility of merging before voting for it, and I'm surprised that this was closed after only a week when the discussion was so sparse, but I'm hesitant to recommend relisting. Couldn't the merging editor do an empty merge here? That is, merge the only relevant content—which is none—from HTTPA into HTTP? I've seen that happen in other AfDs that closed as merge despite the article lacking usable material. Rebbing 18:09, 3 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Doing the "empty merge" isn't the problem. The question is, what should I do with the article afterwards? Leaving a redirect to an article that doesn't discuss the topic is a bit misleading. Deleting the article a few hours after the AfD closed as "merge", would feel like I'm doing an out-of-process deletion. Is there any precedent for this? —Ruud 23:04, 3 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree you can't just delete it, but I don't think there's any rule that a redirect has to be to an article that discusses the topic: plenty of redirects are just to vaguely related topics; we even have {{R to article without mention}} for them. And isn't that what happens when an AfD closes as redirect—the article is blanked and redirected to a related topic without any merge? What I'm trying to say is that, because this content can't be merged, it should be treated as if the discussion had closed as redirect. Rebbing 00:07, 4 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Can't see how {{R to article without mention}} would be useful it seems to be primarily of use for listing things which need to be fixed (or better categorised as a rediret), it doesn't help the reader in anyway following the redirect and finding nothing. As there doesn't appear to be a better category or fix, it isn't really helpful. --82.14.37.32 (talk) 06:26, 4 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- The question isn't whether or not that template is useful; I'm using its existence to argue that redirecting to an article that doesn't mention the original topic is an accepted practice. When an editor performs a post-AfD merge, she has the discretion to choose what will be merged; if she makes a good-faith determination that nothing can be merged, I believe a blank and redirect is in order. Rebbing 15:16, 4 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- "I'm using its existence to argue that redirecting to an article that doesn't mention the original topic is an accepted practice." which is precisely my point, I am saying it's an accepted practice to note that - where it is useful, where it could potentially be fixed in some way. It isn't used willy nilly because we don't know what else to do with it, which seems to be the purpose for that template you are advocating. As editors it is also our perogative (and arguably duty) to not just follow like sheep but question the wisdom in the course of action being suggested --82.14.37.32 (talk) 18:30, 4 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Sure it is: BLAR is used every single time a deletion discussion closes as "redirect," and, as a general practice, I think it's useful. (It's actually recommended by the community as an alternative to deletion.) So, no, I'm not blindly following. I think it's a silly outcome here—this ought to have been deleted—but the discussion closed as "merge," and DRV is not the place for rehashing deletion arguments, so we ought to honor the close by merging, which, in this case, means redirecting. Rebbing 19:23, 4 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Take a few steps back and read the comments here in context starting from your comment "..I don't think there's any rule that a redirect has to be to an article that discusses the topic: plenty of redirects are just to vaguely related topics; we even have {{R to article without mention}}". It is within the context of those comments this strand of the discussion is happening. I am pointing out that, using that template as a justification is wrong, since the template and it's usage from my view is inapplicable here. If blanking and redirect happens elsewhere isn't in question, In those other circumstances the merge hopefully usually makes sense and doesn't lead us to an article where the topic isn't mentioned. Stating that I'm looking at BLAR and following that, so I'm not blindly following is meant as ironic? --82.14.37.32 (talk) 20:16, 4 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- I think you missed my point: it's an accepted practice; I think it's beneficial; and I think it's the appropriate, reasonable thing to do in this case—as I think it is in every discussion that closes as "redirect" or as "merge" with no usable content. Rebbing 20:43, 4 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse for what it is worth (very little), noting that participation was mild, and noting that AfD cannot compel a merge. The merge decision is subject to approval at the target, and if disputed should be discussed at the target talk page. I see nothing there (Talk:Hypertext Transfer Protocol). As the AfD shows no consideration let alone consensus for deletion, or pseudo-deletion by redirect, a rejection of the merge at the target is a de facto overturn of the AfD result. No fault on the closer. Advise that a good deletion nomination strongly argues for deletion, and does not merely throw it out there that the topic could be merged somewhere. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:23, 4 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Two related essays:
- 1. Wikipedia:Pseudo-deletion by redirection
- 2. Wikipedia:Renominating for deletion
- --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:27, 4 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Redirect Close was correct, in that the consensus was to merge. The problem is that the merge !votes did not really consider what was to be merged. This is a common problem I have found. If I merged this (and I have been doing alot of these lately) I would just redirect it with the comment "no sourced content to merge". Anyway as an addition to Smokeys essays above this sums up my thoughts on the issue:
- 3. Wikipedia:Merge what?
- AIRcorn (talk) 02:22, 5 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- As for precedent Ihaveredirected many unsourced merge closes recently. However if there is someone in the deletion discussion who indicates a specific sentence or part that should be merged I will do that even if it is unsourced. A related case might be Ricky Clousing, where an editor disagreed with the merge target and I brought it here where it was decided to relist and it is currently undergoing a third afd. AIRcorn (talk) 02:40, 5 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- If redirected, as a reading of the AfD, then appeals to reverse the decision should be made on the talk page of the target. This makes perfect sense in this case. Why should not HTTPA be a mention within HTTP? The only reason for a spin out is if the HTTPA content no longer fits. The case for that should be established on the talk page. As a question of notability, if HTTPA is not worth a mention at HTTP, then it is very hard to see that it is worth its own article. The question not examined at AfD was "Is HTTPA a non-notable WP:NEOLOGISM?". --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:49, 5 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- I think a redirect is in essence a merge, just one when there is no information worth transferring across. In an ideal world voters would recognise this and !vote redirect or at least give us some idea on how the merge should proceed. I am not sure what can be decided on the talk page. If someone wants it kept or deleted then they have to bring it here eventually anyway. If my thinking is acceptable then turning this into a redirect is just a bold move. If it is not acceptable then we need to bring all similar cases here (the links above are just the tip of the iceberg and I am still in the "L's"). AIRcorn (talk) 09:28, 5 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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