- Wikipedia:Bots/BetaCommandBot and NFCC 10 c (edit | [[Talk:Wikipedia:Bots/BetaCommandBot and NFCC 10 c|talk]] | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (restore|cache|MfD)
No consensus for redirect. Page is an historical archive of discussion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MickMacNee (talk • contribs)
- Version before redirection and protection is here
- Overturn and keep discussion visible. What has happened here is a lack of proper archiving or merging with the destination page. Although this archiving could be done without admins tools, I note that the redirect was protected for some reason. As far as I can see, there is no need for the redirect to be protected - where is the edit war? The discussion on the page in question should be visible so that it can be read in the future. We do not point people to page histories to read old community discussions. Carcharoth (talk) 00:49, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The more I look at this, the more I'm shaking my head in dismay. Redirecting without merging, and then claiming that it wasn't deleted? That is blanking of discussion, pure and simple, and the technical difference between that and deletion is purely semantic. People signed comments they put on that page. They don't expect it to be only accessible in the page history. And protecting the redirect stops anyone from editing the page and undoing the blanking. I suppose someone could copy the stuff out of the page history, and then archive it properly, but that would be equally silly. This needs resolving at DRV and I'm somewhat disconcerted that MZMcBride thought it was appropriate to go to MickMackNee's talk page and ask if he (MZMcBride) could close the DRV. It might have seemed the right thing to do at the time, but it fails to respect both MickMacNee and the DRV process. Carcharoth (talk) 01:01, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Question: The main concern about the thing was it read like a giant attack page. Where would the benefit of leaving the text up be, seeing how the attack rationale was the main one at the MfD? Remember, the decision has been made, DRV is for procedural violations and the like, not as a second MfD to fight. -Mask? 01:10, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Oh, there are tons of procedural holes in this. Where was the consensus to redirect (see below), is the most pressing one. Carcharoth (talk) 01:15, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You'll notice im not endorsing the decision quite yet, and im really not trying to needle you, I promise :) But you really didn't answer my question. The issue of turning it into a redirect as the vehicle to accomplish this goal aside, there was great concern by many established, respected editors that it read like an attack page. As any deletion is not a vote, but rather a reasoned debate, it's obvious that these concerns had merit to the closing admin. This being the case, where would the benefit, or even compliance with the spirit of the close be, if the comments were just left in the open? I suspect the redirect and leaving them in history, as opposed to an outright deletion, was intended as a sort of compromise. -Mask? 01:24, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Examining the redirect option - MZMcBride closed the MfD as "redirect(fully-protected)", but in the actual discussion, redirection had only been mentioned three times: "deletion or redirection to an RfC"; "Delete and then redirect to a neutrally worded RfC based around finding solutions, instead of apportioning blame"; "Delete or redirect to Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria compliance". There was also the related option "Merge it into the AN subpage". The actual closure did none of these, but instead blanked the page and turned it into a redirect to the AN subpage. Surprisingly, no-one thought of moving the page to an RfC (which would have changed the title, left a redirect behind, and preserved what was said). There were many better ways of dealing with this, and the option chosen is, I'm sad to say, not one of the better ones. If the result had been keep, I would have supported any number of refactorings, movings, archiving and improvement of the page, but this protection of the redirect means all this is no longer possible, as MZMcBride has literally said: no need to edit this page, thus removing the option of many of these other possibilities. If MZMcBride will unprotect the redirect, I would be willing to try and find a more equitable solution such as marking rejected and moving to a subpage with a different name. Carcharoth (talk) 01:15, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The votes were pretty much split between keep and delete, with a slight favor to delete, as I recall. I was strongly inclined to delete, however, I chose to redirect. "Merging" two pages is not possible with MediaWiki, and any type of history-merge would have destroyed the pages. I redirected because it left the revisions in place and visible to the community while directing people to the appropriate place for ongoing discussion. I protected the redirect to avoid any further comments in the "wrong" place.
As for moving the page to an RfC subpage, that would be absurd -- admins are in no way empowered to begin an RfC like that. The full history of the page has been preserved, something that I honestly believe some people failed to realize. No revisions are gone, everything is still visible to those who wish to see it, and in fact, people can move their comments if they see fit. This is advantageous to me (or another admin) simply copying over all the text from one page to the other, as it makes attribution of edits far easier. As for marking the page as historical or rejected, there were strong concerns that the page was being used as an attack page against Betacommand, something that simply will not be tolerated. --MZMcBride (talk) 01:24, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Where do I start? It's not a vote, for a start, but if you think there was a slight favour to delete, it was 17 people mentioning delete, and 21 mentioning keep. Would you like to retract your "slight favor to delete" comment as misleading, or try and justify it with reference to what was actually discussed, rather than vague and inaccurate references to counting votes? As for your "merging" comment and MediaWiki page history comment, you know full well I wasn't talking about a page history merge. I was talking about the sort of merging that saw lots of AN and ANI threads consolidated at the AN subpage. The move to an RfC should have happened at the start. Of course the full history of the page has been preserved, but the discussion hasn't. People don't look in page histories to see what was discussed. They look at archives of discussions. Do you see the difference? And no-one has substantiated the attack page concerns. Simply "concerns" that something is an attack page doesn't make it an attack page. I count seven people calling it an attack page: MBisanz, Redvers, Hammersoft, LaraLove, ThuranX, Coredesat and AKMask. However, most of them (or those supporting 'per' their comments) say why they think it is an attack page, but simply assert that it is so. Only MBisanz and LaraLove made any attempt to explain why they thought it was an attack page, and many editors explained why it wasn't an attack page. So how can the closing admin decide when opinion is polarised like that? Simple. They can't. I have no problem with the redirect, but there is no consensus for it, so it should be unprotected so others can try other solutions (before or after discussion), rather than having this one imposed by fiat. Carcharoth (talk) 02:09, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- If you feel the comments should be moved similarly to AN and AN/I comments, you're free to. That's exactly why I decided to preserve the history. My protection stops people from editing a page that shouldn't be edited (i.e., centralize the discussion). My protection does not stop anyone from copying and pasting. --MZMcBride (talk) 02:24, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks. This doesn't preclude the redirect being unprotected and restored later, depending on what this DRV outcome is, but I've made a start here. I intend to do the same for the main page (extract and archive useful comments), but will wait and see what people think of that first. Carcharoth (talk) 03:08, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse redirect - I voted delete in the MfD because the page is a borderline attack page in my opinion. I don't think there's much of anything on that page of relevance that's not already somewhere else. However, if it isn't going to be deleted, this is the best alternative. It's not semantics. Only admins can see deleted pages. This allows anyone to see the page via the history. It allows anyone to link to a permanent version visible to everyone. I don't see a problem with this. Lara❤Love 05:06, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- By semantics, I meant that there is little practical difference between the visibility (as in people being aware of it, not whether they can physically view it) of a redirected page and a deleted page. "I don't think there's much of anything on that page of relevance that's not already somewhere else" - I strongly disagree with you there, and I am actively archiving the useful parts of the page (will be done in a few days). Carcharoth (talk) 08:58, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- What aspect or part of the page, specifically, makes it an attack page? This accusation keeps getting bandied about, but I've yet to see any real evidence to support it. David Mestel(Talk) 17:28, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- ugh. Endorse redirect. Better yet, delete the damn thing, as an attack page.
You kept your promise to drag this crap out on DRV, no? Congrats, good work. unsigned comment, misidentified user bringing this to DRV, sorry. This is exactly why it is best to sign your comments. SQLQuery me! 05:24, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I am trying to keep my arguments to procedural ones about MfD, believe it or not. But I do worry when SQL thinks I started this DRV when it should be plain that I didn't. For the record, I added the "unsigned" tag before SQL made the above comment, so I am still mystified as to why he made the comment he did, despite him striking it out. When people make mistakes like that over BetcommandBot, they get attacked. When people make mistakes in other matters, people are more forgiving. Like I'm trying to be. Carcharoth (talk) 08:58, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse - as I said on the MFD, we don't need two pages discussing the exact same thing. Closing admin must've thought along those lines too, and thought that would be the most sensible and least inflammatory option. Will (talk) 16:01, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse redirect getting tired of all the antics. Also getting tired of the revert warring trying to maintain visibility of this page [3][4][5][6][7][8]. 6 times in less than two hours? After being blocked a week ago for 3RR violation? Wow. I mean WOW. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:34, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll see your six ([9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14]), and raise you a clean block log. Clean block log? I though Betacommand had been blocked before. Oh, hang on, this is his alternate account. </sarcasm> Seriously, if someone had come along and blocked them both for edit warring, does the main account or the alternate one get blocked? (Yes, I know, Black Kite protected the page and warned them both and that is an end to it). Oh, and let's throw in a parody for good measure: "6 times in less than two hours? After being warned for abusing a bot to spam this editor's talk page and after being warned for incivility? Wow. I mean WOW." There. I hope the karma of the universe has been restored. Hammersoft told the MickMacNee version. I told the Betacommand version. But seriously, Betacommand is developing a real pattern of borderline and unacceptable behaviour here. His supporters need to be less uncritical and to have a quiet word with him (if they can) and get him to settle down and not get provoked so easily over so little. Carcharoth (talk) 17:15, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes I did tell the MickMacNee version. That's because I'm tired of his antics. I'm not tired of Betacommand's. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:19, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Hammersoft, is that not... inconsistent? Or at the least biased. (Seriously). Imagine someone said this about you. How would you feel? I know we shouldn't treat people differently according to how long they've been around, but MickMacNee's been around since 30 October 2007. Betacommand's been around since 7 November 2005. Both are giving as good as they get, in my opinion, and both need to calm down and learn to get along. I'd give MickMacNee a bit of slack because he has only been here a few months, and I'd give Betacommand a bit of slack because he is a long-term contributor and does useful work. That has to be balanced though, by his having been here for over two years so he should know how things work around here and people shouldn't defend him all the time. Equally, as others say, he does get a lot of aggro for his image tagging work, and, as long as he apologises, he should get a little bit of slack for that, and if he reports attacks on him (I mean the stuff on his talk page, not the alleged attacks from MickMacNee), then warnings should be given to those attacking him. Despite what people like ThuranX have said, I'm very unlikely to ever call for a community ban or permenent long block of any established good-faith contributor. But I do speak my mind and tell people when I think they are wrong, or if I think they can do things better. I do realise that sometimes cajoling is better than shouting or lining up the evidence, but I genuinely do hope that people take the criticism in the spirit in which it is given - the intention being to help people improve how they collaborate and communicate with others. The single largest barrier to this is intemperate, curt, incivil language, which is why I try to avoid that as much as I can - maybe all the time. I have criticised many admins and editors for their actions, and I've praised others as well, but I always try to do so in calm, constructive, civil language (if a bit verbose). Carcharoth (talk) 17:51, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- (ec) Um...do you really think that "getting tired of all the antics" is anything even approaching a good rationale? David Mestel(Talk) 17:28, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Certainly. MickMacNee is seriously on about BetacommandBot and I see this is just another permutation of that. Over and over and over again he keeps trying to attack, cattle prod and disparage Betacommand and his bot. At some point it needs to stop, and MickMacNee needs to take a time out. There. Longer version. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:39, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, for starters, there are the twelve other editors actually supporting his proposals. Why is this anything more than legitimate criticism of the actions of BCB? David Mestel(Talk) 19:41, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- So you're saying the page was really just a vehicle for criticism of BCBot? --Hammersoft (talk) 20:09, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, it was a page for the discussion of BCB's activities, and MickMacNee's (and many of the other commentators') opinions happened to be critical of said activities, and it seems to be those opinions about which you're complaining. David Mestel(Talk) 20:32, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No, but thanks. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:36, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Come again? David Mestel(Talk) 21:13, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Why should I? You're doing a wonderful job stuffing words into my mouth. Please, feel free to translate my latest response to whatever form you feel necessary. --Hammersoft (talk) 21:54, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I just don't understand what you're saying. With the greatest possible respect, if anyone's been stuffing words into anyone's mouth (not that I allege this), it's you: see your comment above starting with "so you're saying". If you're referring to my suggestions about what you were complaining about, I am prepared to be corrected, but I thought that one of your main points was that these criticisms was that these criticisms were a thinly-veiled attack on BC, no? David Mestel(Talk) 22:21, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn: AfD is not a vote, but there was clearly no consensus to get rid of it, and the arguments to delete were principally "it's an attack page", for which they provide no evidence whatsoever, and "any criticism of BCB is a thinly-veiled attack on BC", which is a monumental failure to assume good faith, and for which there is likewise no evidence. If this really were an attack page, that'd be an excellent reason to delete even in the face of a lack of clear consensus. Give me some evidence, please. David Mestel(Talk) 17:28, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse redirect per AKMask. Nothing there worth merging. Mr.Z-man 18:20, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- That's an editorial decision. I'm torn on whether to complete the merger I started, or wait until the DRV is finished. There is good material on this page, and I want to use it as part of productive discussions. Carcharoth (talk) 18:24, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Carcharoth, if you can spend the time to remove the miss-information that the page was based on and propagated. it shouldnt be an issue. But as it stood the purposeful mis-information and blatantly wrong comments should not be merged. βcommand 18:38, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Part of the reason I haven't merged yet is because almost no-one who has said there is "bad" content has told me what they think is "bad". But if you are happy to trust my judgment, I'll finish the merger later tonight. And hopefully get some credit for trying to end this peacefully. Though I doubt it. (And no, walking away isn't always the best way to end something). Carcharoth (talk) 18:42, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse redirection. Concerning the Betacommand debate, there's arguably nothing anywhere really "worth" saving. In this case, we have two pages which discuss the materially same thing. That is unnecessary. RyanGerbil10(Kick 'em in the Dishpan!) 18:50, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Hmm. I understand what you are saying, but can you show how the pages are the same? Why was one MfD'd and the other one not? Bad things have been said on the destination page as well. At root, I suspect that this is a "fruit of the poisoned tree" debate, but those with long memories will remember the DRV I was heavily involved in, where a page started by a banned user got undeleted. Just because someone objects to who started a page and how, doesn't always mean it is unsalvageable, or doesn't contain useful content. Carcharoth (talk) 18:55, 25 February 2008 (UTC) - it was this one, in case anyone was interested.[reply]
- Well yes, this is probably why it wasn't deleted. Not to speak for the closing admin here, but this seems to me an attempt to consolidate discussion. This is generally desirable, and even though there was no consensus to delete one or the other, I would be willing to wager that there is consensus as to which one of the two pages was the more congenial place to continue discussion. This redirection has two effects - consolidating the discussion into one place which (most) everyone can agree is appropriate and sufficient, and leaving the non-used page accessible to non-admin users. RyanGerbil10(Kick 'em in the Dishpan!) 20:51, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You should be my spokesperson. : - ) --MZMcBride (talk) 20:55, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The Mfd'd page does not cover the same topic as the redirected page, and also pre-dates it. If anything, it would fall under just one heading of the betacomand AN sub-page, had it actually existed at the time. A closure in this way is the first time I've ever seen a discussion closed like this, if the closing intent is actually to retain archived discussion. Also, the stated reason for closure: "The result of the debate was redirect" is also just plain false, as explained above. MickMacNee (talk) 00:18, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Ryan, your comment about "consolidating discussion" seems to suggest to me that you think the content has been merged. Do you have a definition for what you mean by "consolidate"? In my view, this was a "blank all content and redirect" result, not a "merge useful content and redirect". Do you see the difference? That is why I'm proposing to merge the useful comments, despite Hammersoft taking the line that nothing is useful. I also have more faith that a proper merge will allow some of the unanswered questions to be resolved, and some of the worst of the "discussion" on that page to be quietly left behind, and that could have happened if people hadn't shortcircuited the process with a premature MfD'. I could also just summarise what the page said and rewrite it, in what I think would be a more acceptable form. Betacommand has said he has no problems with that, so I don't quite see why Hammersoft is objecting. But it will now have to wait until tomorrow. Carcharoth (talk) 00:36, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- So then merge any comments you think are useful. To be blunt, it's a redirection, not a black hole. We don't need two grocery stores if the only difference between them is that one sells a variety of grapes that are more sour. RyanGerbil10(Kick 'em in the Dishpan!) 00:30, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I fear that my definition of "useful comments" might annoy some people who define some of what I see as "useful" as an "attack". If anyone can clearly state what is an attack, and needs to be left off, then I will archive the rest - but failing that, I will end up archiving the entire lot, though not quite yet (want to let the DRV finish and for things in general to calm down). Carcharoth (talk) 15:05, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Make visible - There's really no reason to remove this from easy view, even if it is a rehash of the same old thing. There is a lot of constructive criticism in the page, and relatively little attack. The page should be made visible or added to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Betacommand as a collapsed section (like the completed discussions here). It seems like many of the people claiming that this had no purpose other than attack are no longer willing to view any criticism of this process as anything other than an attack. Read even the opening support/oppose section for evidence of this. —Torc. (Talk.) 02:31, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Suggestion What about changing this to {{softredirect}} & possibly adding {{historical}}? The closing was a little terse - was this redirected because the closer decided that it qualified as an attack page? If so, then it should have been deleted. If not, then it should have been tagged as historical or at least {{courtesy blanked}}. ˉˉanetode╦╩ 12:04, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- This doesn't seem to need undeletion. The page history is already visible. I like Anetode's suggestion. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 13:33, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I see no need to create new precedents in how historical debates are retained. How about the closing admin clarifies the postition, was it deleted for being an attack page or not? Is the page history needed or isn't it? MickMacNee (talk) 14:13, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The real sticking point is the protection of the redirect. Without that, people could have tried other options after the (effective) keep. And yes, a redirect does keep the page history, and this wasn't deletion. There is a difference between blanking something and deleting it. For what it is worth, WP:AN/B now has an archive. Is there any reason not to just stick a disputed or rejected sign on the page being discussed here, and dump it at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Betacommand/Archive 0? Carcharoth (talk) 14:21, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, marking it historical might work, but this discussion is still misplaced. It hasn't been deleted. To stick a historical tag on it all you need to do is unprotect, revert and tag. Have a natter with the closing admin and Bob's yer auntie. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 07:27, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Concur there's no support (not to mention consensus) for a redirect. The !votes seemed to be delete (some delete and redirect), keep, and mark historical. (I !voted keep and/or merge to AN/B, I believe.) Carch...'s suggestion above, revert to last version, remove the the MfD from the article, mark historical (or unproductive, which I think I'd agree to, whether or not "historical"), and move it to an archive of AN/B, and restart relevant threads in AN/B, seems the best available option. I don't really see a reason not to merge it to AN/B, except that it has independent discussion of whether any bot could enforce NFCC 10c, with my reasoned decision being negative. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 02:48, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL do not make one immune to criticism. Furthermore, hiding the entire thing stinks of censorship, and Wikipedia is not censored. Jtrainor (talk) 22:24, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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