Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 October 2

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October 2

Category:Greek contemporary laïko singers

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: merge. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkl talk 16:30, 10 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Propose merging Category:Greek contemporary laïko singers to Category:Greek laïko singers

Nominator's rationale: No obvious difference, Rathfelder (talk) 21:55, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Merge per nom. The use of contemporary in the title presents a maintenance difficulty when singers retire or die. No Great Shaker (talk) 04:00, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Merge per nom. Same as 'current', routinely upmerged. Oculi (talk) 22:55, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The "contemporary" in this category does not mean that the singers are still living. It tries to distinguish the versions of laïko that emerged from the 1980s onwards, from the so-called "classic laïkó" of the 1960s and 1970s. The problem is that there is no individual article for two phases of the same music genre. And laïko is literally the Greek equivalent of popular music, with the changes reflecting whatever style sells at any point in time. Dimadick (talk) 05:37, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I dont think the distinction works. Many of the biographies are in both categories without anything in the article about it. Rathfelder (talk) 22:39, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Merge per nom. Thanks to Dimadick I now understand the original problem. But I don't think it is solvalble by this subcat that is unclear to most users. --Just N. (talk) 19:27, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Murder victims by nationality

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 October 24#Category:Murder victims by nationality

Category:Iranian operatic sopranos

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: merge (non-admin closure) Marcocapelle (talk) 06:36, 10 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Propose merging Category:Iranian operatic sopranos to Category:Iranian sopranos

Nominator's rationale: Only 2 articles. Not likely to be more. All (both) the Iranian sopranos are described as operatic. Rathfelder (talk) 13:17, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Merge per nom. WP:SMALLCAT applies. No Great Shaker (talk) 04:04, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Merge per nom. WP:SMALLCAT applies. --Just N. (talk) 19:30, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:21st-century women singers by nationality

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: keep. (non-admin closure) Qwerfjkl talk 16:34, 10 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Propose renaming Category:21st-century women singers by nationality to Category:21st-century women singers
Propose renaming Category:20th-century women singers by nationality to Category:20th-century women singers
Propose renaming Category:19th-century women singers by nationality to Category:19th-century women singers

Nominator's rationale: Singers are defined, and categorised, much more by language and heritage than by nationality. There is no category "by nationality" for male singers. Rathfelder (talk) 09:16, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Singers regularly use multiple languages, and heritage is not defining. Nationality is always defining. Dimadick (talk) 10:01, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Oppose Agree with Dimadick Sunrise In Brooklyn ✉ 11:52, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Nationality is always defining if it is specified, but for many singers there is nothing in the article about nationality. Most of the Algerian singers seem to be in France. Singing in Iran was illegal, so most of the Iranian singers are in the USA. I dont think any of the articles say whether they have become US citizens. In fact there is often no information about where singers live. So the country categories are often not related to nationality. Rathfelder (talk) 13:23, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - there is eg Category:20th-century English singers and Category:Singers by nationality; and there is Category:Male singers by nationality contrary to the claim in the nomination. In any case the suggested renames to container categories leave all articles categorised by nationality completely untouched. (I see that Rathfelder, first edit in 2005, is yet to acquire the art of indentation.) Oculi (talk) 16:31, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Personal attacks are not helpful. Please stop. Rathfelder (talk) 21:36, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Asking an editor to indent properly is not a personal attack. Oculi (talk) 00:05, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
English has not been a nationality since 1707. The point of this nomination is to remove the suggestion that the sub-categories are by nationality. Rathfelder (talk) 17:42, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The subcategories are by nationality. If you are going to quibble, Category:20th-century British singers is nationality: what else might it be? Subcat of Category:Musicians by nationality, part of Category:People by nationality. Very bizarre nom - if you think an individual has been mis-categorised, change it. (Rathfelder created Category:19th-century women singers by nationality.) Oculi (talk) 18:42, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Dimadick. Also, the fact that there is no "by nationality" category for male singers means nothing; one can always be created. --Ser Amantio di Nicolao^{Che dicono a Signa?}_{Lo dicono a Signa.} 17:00, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Many of these biographies are clearly not categorised by nationality. See, for example, Despina Vandi, Helena Paparizou, Kalomira, Katerine Duska, Maro Litra and Xenia Ghali, properly described as Greek singers, but almost certainly not Greek nationals. There are many similar articles. Far more than with other nationality/occupation categories. Musicians are, quite properly, categorised by the music they produce, which may not coincide with their own nationality. Rathfelder (talk) 21:20, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Despina Vandi is described as Greek. What is your problem with this? if you think she is not Greek, put her in a different nationality category. As I said above, if you dispute individual nationalities, remove them from the category rather than fiddling around with the entire tree. Xenia Ghali - "Ghali was born in 1989 in Paris, France and was raised in Athens, Greece" - why is she not Greek? "Greek people" is a nationality category, as are all its subcats. (John McEnroe was born in Germany. Boris Johnson was born in New York.) Oculi (talk) 00:02, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  - Despina Vandi appears to be a German citizen. Xenia Ghali French. Nationality and location are not the same. Rathfelder (talk) 11:01, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    - All we know is they were born in Germany and France respectively, but grew up in Greece. Greek is perfectly fine in this case. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:09, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Strong oppose - undercategorisation of articles has never been an argument for category deletion, and this is part of an extensive tree of musicians by nationality (and professions by nationality in general). Grutness...wha? 00:16, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Nationality is defining and, as Oculi and Grutness have said, we need to maintain the tree. No Great Shaker (talk) 04:09, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
So Bartika Eam Rai is a Nepali singer-songwriter based in New York City. Shall we not have her as a Nepali singer? Rathfelder (talk) 13:33, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like she is an American singer in Nepali language, although the article text is not that explicit about the latter. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:44, 10 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I think I kind of see where Rathfelder is coming from, but don't quite understand how the nomination (which is actually for upmerging, not renaming, as the targets already exist) solves that. Category:21st-century Greek women singers would still be under Category:Greek women singers (part of Category:Women singers by nationality), which is under Category:Greek singers (part of Category:Singers by nationality) and Category:Greek women musicians (part of Category:Women musicians by nationality), and so on up to Category:People by nationality. --Paul_012 (talk) 16:08, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I am not sure what to do. But it does seem to me that putting all the singers under a heading which says they are defined by nationality, when manifestly many of them arent, is misleading. Of course these categories relate to nationality, but this intermediate category isnt necessary. This problem does arise in other occupations, but it seems much more pronounced among singers than in other occupations. Singing, like cooking, is deeply cultural, and migrants will stick to their native culture even when they have long since left - or indeed sometimes when thay have never actually lived there. Rathfelder (talk) 18:12, 4 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There is a Category:American singers by ethnic or national origin ~~which might be expanded to a full tree~~. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:06, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

- Comment: "migrants will stick to their native culture" I am far from certain about this. See for example Helena Paparizou. Greek singer, born and raised in Sweden, has had a professional career in both countries. Eleni Foureira has mixed Greek and Albanian ancestry, was born in Albania and mostly raised in Greece, and her professional career focuses on Greek music. Anna Vissi is Cypriot, but has spend most of her adult life in Greece, and rarely speaks or sings in Cypriot Greek. Dimadick (talk) 05:51, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  Well I'm not suggesting its a universal rule. My point is really that what the articles say about the music they produce is quite often different from what their nationality appears to be - and of course very few articles say anything explicit about nationality.Rathfelder (talk) 22:42, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You are right. It probably applies more to traditional immigration countries like the United States. I will strike part of my previous comment. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:19, 7 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per Dimadick. --Just N. (talk) 19:32, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Psychiatric disease and disorder templates

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 October 10#Category:Psychiatric disease and disorder templates

Rulers of Sicily

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: merge to Category:Counts of Sicily. ✗plicit 01:24, 24 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Propose renaming Category:11th-century rulers of Sicily to Category:11th-century counts of Sicily
Propose renaming Category:12th-century rulers of Sicily to Category:12th-century counts of Sicily

Nominator's rationale: OPTION A: rename, more accurate, and per precedent in this previous discussion. OPTION B: merge them together to Category:Counts of Sicily per WP:SMALLCAT and add the articles to Category:11th-century monarchs in Europe and Category:12th-century monarchs in Europe respectively. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:16, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Rename to Option A. Dimadick (talk) 10:02, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Rename to Option B because of SMALLCAT. No Great Shaker (talk) 04:12, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Option B because of SMALLCAT with no scope for expansion. Laurel Lodged (talk) 14:03, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Option B because the two contain only 2 names. Do we need a European rulers by century target too? Peterkingiron (talk) 21:10, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the nomination says, add the articles to Category:11th-century monarchs in Europe and Category:12th-century monarchs in Europe respectively. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:16, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Are there really no other rulers in Sicily (such a big island land mass) as those counts at those centuries? I somehow remain doubtful about this count narrowings. --Just N. (talk) 19:39, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

O yes, since 1130 we have Category:Kings of Sicily. But that is unrelated to the nomination. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:53, 9 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.