Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Russo-Ukrainian Wars

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. The contributions on both sides of the discussion are roughly even in number and neither presents especially compelling quality or policy-based reasons why they should prevail. Nothing of this closure precludes moving or cleaning up the article. Stifle (talk) 10:39, 21 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Russo-Ukrainian Wars

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In this form, unsourced propaganda piece, created by a problematic user, moved to draft space and restored to the main space by the creator without addressing any issues. The only source in the article is a book published by the Institute of National Memory, basically a state propaganda outlet. It possible could be brought to something acceptable, but we are not even close, and the creator does not seem to be interested. Ymblanter (talk) 19:50, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Ymblanter (talk) 19:50, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ukraine-related deletion discussions. Ymblanter (talk) 19:50, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 19:54, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Russia-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 19:54, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
keep but Rename to List of Russo-Ukrainian Wars. Lists generally do not need sources, because the articles listed should be properly sourced. I am somewhat concerned at the number of redlinks. I suspect that some of these can be dealt with, but using a wider-ranging article rather than a specifically Ukrainian one, such as Great Northern War. I suspect that Swedish invasion of Russia, which ended with the defeat of Charles XII of Sweden at Battle of Poltava would be better than one of the redlinks. The foreign links for some of the redlinks appear to be to Ukrainian WP, where articles are likely to be written from a Ukrainian POV, but that is a matter to be cured by appropriate editing, not deletion. Alternatively Military history of Ukraine might fit, but that would probably require a lot of content on what were primarily wars against Russia/USSR, which would not fit well with the scope of this article. At a time when we may be on the eve of another war, which would need to be added to the list, this is not an appropriate time to consider deletion. Peterkingiron (talk) 21:06, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Russo-Ukrainian War is already in the list.--Ymblanter (talk) 21:14, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That feeling when I planned this article as a page of disambiguation, even when at one point some began to add a template about the need for sources, I specifically renamed the article by adding "(disambiguation)". However, one user canceled the rename. Separately, dear pro-Russian user Ymblanter, the history of military disputes between Ukraine and Russia is broader than the war that has been going on since 2014.--Jafaz (talk) 21:50, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You misunderstand what dab pages are. In this case, it would be for conflicts that are actually called Russo-Ukrainian Wars (which of course none are), not ones that are between Russia and Ukraine. Hence, this should properly be renamed List of ... Clarityfiend (talk) 06:56, 17 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

... if kept. Clarityfiend (talk) 21:45, 17 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not before reliable sources have been found.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:54, 17 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

And, no, I am not a pro-Russian user. Which is easy to figure out by checking my contribution. But I am used to such baseless accusations.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:59, 17 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The creator has been topic-banned in the meanwhile.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:06, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Rename List of Russo-Ukrainian wars (l.c. wars). These are all encyclopedic topics, and this is a natural grouping: a cross of List of wars involving Russia and List of wars involving Ukraine. Are there other such articles, with a naming pattern to follow? Alternative: List of wars involving Russia and Ukraine, which might describe a slightly broader set, for example including the Russo-Polish War (1654–1667), where the Tsardom and Hetmanate fought on the same side. —Michael Z. 02:06, 18 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete – This is a WP:OR grouping of conflicts with a specific revisionist historiographical agenda. There is no justification for this article's existence. RGloucester — ☎ 21:47, 22 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗plicit 23:58, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Disambiguations-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 00:04, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom. Waddles 🗩 🖉 02:35, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Qwaiiplayer (talk) 13:45, 3 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Rename as a list of wars between Russia and Ukraine. Keepcalmandchill (please ping in responses) (talk) 04:26, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This is no different to articles such as List of wars between Russia and Sweden or List of armed conflicts involving Poland against Russia. Keepcalmandchill (please ping in responses) (talk) 04:28, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Even if this is going to be a list, we still need such disambig. page. Therefore, I would be inclined to keep. I do not think this should be a list because we already have List of invasions and occupations of Ukraine and List of wars involving Ukraine. My very best wishes (talk) 05:42, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Disambig per Very Best Wishes. Pious Brother (talk) 02:42, 9 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 03:50, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: problematic original research. --K.e.coffman (talk) 07:45, 10 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep but clean up. This is a reasonable disambig, but it is suffering from way too much extra information. Prune to links, remove the article-like "lead", etc. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:55, 11 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Disambig WP:NOTESSAY historical revisionism or whatever. Dronebogus (talk) 23:28, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep and Rename into something like History of Russo-Ukrainian military conflicts. There are obvious wars like Soviet–Ukrainian War 1918-1921, war of 1658-1659 (a lot of sources, i.e. To the 350th anniversary of the Konotop battle of 1659. The Ukrainian-Russian war of 1658–1659: causes and preconditions (2009)), and of course current war 2014-2022. There are also a number of other conflicts like Poltava battle (1709), Sich demolishing (1775), UPA insurgency (1945-1957) etc. It is not "revisionism" in any case, but part of mainstream Ukrainian research historiography, and nowadays moving from academic usage to nationwide narrative. There are, of course, critics of this historiography mainstream and national narrative, and they should be mentioned in the article. --Brunei (talk) 13:16, 15 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Brunei. --Микола Василечко (talk) 16:12, 15 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. The war between Russian and Ukrainian states has long story and have to be presented in Wikipedia. --Sakateka (talk) 21:29, 15 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Textbook WP:ITSIMPORTANT Dronebogus (talk) 07:22, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Disambiguate, this is very clearly a piece of historical revisionism and a textbook example of WP:OR, but it would serve as a useful disambiguation page. This should most certainly not be kept in its current form, as it currently does not portray academic consensus. Devonian Wombat (talk) 06:02, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Original research WP:FORK of List of wars involving Ukraine. Current title is also confusingly similar to Russo-Ukrainian War (i.e. the current war). MrsSnoozyTurtle 08:26, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep and go to List of Russian-Ukrainian conflicts, because it's about the history. Thingofme (talk) 10:59, 19 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as OR. Srnec (talk) 18:00, 20 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.