Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ottawa St. Anthony Italia

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep. Consensus leans towards notability - in particular but no solely I point out that the win at the Open Canada Cup, on which the reliable sources point as notable that an amateur team beat professional teams to win it - a claim made in the article and the discussion. As a note, the operative notability here is WP:GNG, a guideline that reflects project-wide consensus, not WP:FOOTYN, a Wikiproject essay meant to provide a roadmap to project participants but not subject to project-wide consensus. --Cerejota (talk) 06:27, 12 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ottawa St. Anthony Italia

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Non-notable amateur football club, does not pass WP:Footy TonyStarks (talk) 04:12, 25 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ontario-related deletion discussions. — • Gene93k (talk) 13:26, 26 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. — • Gene93k (talk) 13:26, 26 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Giant Snowman 14:06, 26 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - notability is claimed - winning the Open Canada Cup and The Challenge Trophy - and easily verifiable, per the Canadian Soccer Association. Giant Snowman 14:11, 26 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - agree with the notability of a Canadian team. --Coppercanuck (talk) 01:51, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - How does winning the Open Canada Cup and the Challenge Trophy confer notability exactly? Neither competition is considered as the National Cup in Canada and hence the club fails WP:FootyN, does it not? @CopperCannuck, as the creator of the article, simple saying that the club is notable is not enough please provide a reason.TonyStarks (talk) 09:37, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I think what Coppercanuck is trying to say is not "it's notable", but rather "per GiantSnowman". Jenks24 (talk) 05:01, 28 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  - Yes agreed with GiantSnowman on the WP:FootyN. The Challenge Trophy is a National Cup in Canada. Granted there is another cup Canadian Championship, The Challenge Trophy is still competed for at a high level. The Open Canada Cup was an attempt to bridge the gap between the amateur and professional leagues in Canada. "All teams that have played in the national cup are assumed to meet WP:N criteria." Ottawa St. Anthony not only played in a National cup they won it. Team winning a notable competition is notable? Correct? --Coppercanuck (talk) 03:37, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    - It's a National Cup for amateur clubs. Does that really confer notability? I mean any club registered with the Canadian Soccer Association can enter, so really any team that participates in it can have it's own article. Maybe I'm misunderstanding WP:FOOTYN, but I really don't see how playing or winning a national amateur cup confers notability.TonyStarks (talk) 04:40, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      - All of the finalists in the FA Vase competition (English national cup for amateur clubs) have articles. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 05:54, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
        WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, or more appropriately in this case WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTSEVENTHOUGHITPROBABLYSHOULDN'T. I agree with TonyStarks here; I don't see how winning an amateur tournament infers notability and the lack of independent coverage means that I am leaning towards delete. Big Dom 19:10, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Delete – I agree with Big Dom that winning an amateur tournament does not confer notability. Delusion23 (talk) 14:20, 1 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, fails WP:FOOTYN. -- P 1 9 9 • TALK 18:04, 2 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Couple of misapprehensions here. First, WP:FOOTYN is a reasonable guide for estimating likely notability, but it's an essay that was never accepted outside WP:WikiProject Football, not a Wikipedia notability guideline. Second and perhaps more important, the Open Canada Cup wasn't an amateur tournament. It was a national competition open to both amateur and professional clubs: the team beaten by Ottawa St. Anthony to win the competition, Toronto Lynx, was then playing in USL-1, a fully-professional league as listed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues. I'd suggest a club that beats a fully-professional team in the final of a national open cup competition has to be considered notable. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 13:17, 3 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz ^Humbug! 21:34, 3 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment This football club is amateur and only participated in amateur tournaments. Eduemoni ^↑talk↓ 23:20, 3 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So you're just choosing to ignore Struway2's logic that shows this hasn't "only" participated in amateur tournaments? Interesting. Giant Snowman 14:00, 4 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment GiantSnowman: I think the real issue here is how we define The Challenge Trophy. Is it really THE National Cup of Canada? In the history section of its article, it says "The tournament acted as a men's national championship at the highest level in Canadian soccer in its early years, however, professional and semi-professional tournaments have taken on more importance in recent decades, including the Nutrilite Canadian Championship." What era does the "early years" refer to considering that the competition has been around since 1912? When did it stop being considered the national championship at the highest level? I think the answer to those questions will be a better indicator of how notable the club in question (and others along the way) really are.TonyStarks (talk) 03:08, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The current team(s) may not be particularly notable, but winning Open Canada Cup against fully-professional team is certainly notable. Not sure why User:Eduemoni is making clearly false statements that they only participated in amateur tournaments. Nfitz (talk) 10:02, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Keep. The club has won a national championship; albeit amateur, but we have articles about other national "amateur" competition winners, eg teams who compete for the Canadian Bowl, Memorial Cup and Allan Cup. The reason I'm not gung-ho about my keep opinion is that amateur soccer doesn't have the profile of other sports in Canada. PK T(alk) 14:33, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The Challenge Trophy is equal to Allan Cup. Soccer is gaining a bigger profile in Canada. Looking back at some newspapers from the 1930's, 40's and even 50's; the results of the Challenge Trophy were published in papers outside of the local teams. The profile was there, it took a low spot and now is returning. Coppercanuck (talk) 16:01, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.