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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Guerillero Parlez Moi 17:48, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ho Ying-chie

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Ho Ying-chie (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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Non-notable entrepreneur. Fails WP:GNG, with the only coverage in potentially reliable sources consisting of trivial mentions. Apparently two of his grandchildren are notable (although I doubt it for one of them), but notability isn't inherited. BilletsMauves (talk) 10:42, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.
    1. January 2000 articles about his death:
      1. Cheung, Chi-Fai (2000-01-27). "Tributes flow for modest tycoon". South China Morning Post. ProQuest 265565677. Archived from the original on 2022-07-25. Retrieved 2022-07-25.

        The article notes: "Those paying tribute included Chief Executive Tung Chee-hwa, Financial Secretary Donald Tsang Yam-kuen, New World Development chairman Cheng Yu-tung, Cable & Wireless HKT chief executive Linus Cheung Wing-lam and movie star Jackie Chan."

      2. Lewis, Tommy (2000-01-22). "Tobacco tycoon dies at 89". South China Morning Post. p. 1. ProQuest 265548630. Archived from the original on 2022-07-25. Retrieved 2022-07-25.

        The article notes: "Tycoon Ho Ying-chie, who made his fortune from cigarettes and gave hundreds of millions of dollars to charity, has died aged 89."

      3. "Passage: Died: Ho Ying-chie". Asiaweek. 2000-02-04. ProQuest 228673584.
    2. 東方明珠浦東 [Oriental Pearl Pudong] (in Chinese). 右灰文化傳播有限公司. Retrieved 2022-07-25 – via Google Books.

      The article notes: "何英傑 人物資訊 何英傑(1911 年 6 月 8 日—2000 年 1 月 21 日),上海浦東出生,香港慈善家,香港煙草有限公司創辦人。被香港人稱為“何伯”。人物生平人稱“何伯”的何英傑,1925 年進入家族的印刷廠當學徒,1931 年創辦上海新亞印刷廠,抗日戰爭期間仍然繼續經營, ..."

      From Google Translate: "He Yingjie Character information He Yingjie (June 8, 1911 - January 21, 2000), born in Pudong, Shanghai, Hong Kong philanthropist, founder of Hong Kong Tobacco Co., Ltd. He is called "He Bo" by Hong Kong people. He Yingjie, known as "He Bo" in his life, entered the family's printing factory as an apprentice in 1925, and founded Shanghai Xinya Printing Factory in 1931, which continued to operate during the Anti-Japanese War."

    3. 生日密碼 財運、事業篇【6月】 [Birthday Password Wealth, Career [June]] (in Chinese). Taipei: 真源有限公司. 2016. pp. 25–26. ISBN 978-9-88-773063-7. Retrieved 2022-07-25 – via Google Books.

      The article notes: "慈善家煙草商為善不留名何英傑,1911 年 6 月 8 日於中國上海出生,綽號何伯,「香港煙草有限公司」創辦人及前董事長, 是位大慈善家。1925 年,他在家族經營的印刷廠當學徒,1931 年創辦「上海新亞印刷廠」。1942 年在上海創辦香煙廠及「高樂香煙」品牌。"

      From Google Translate: "Philanthropist tobacco businessman He Yingjie, who was born on June 8, 1911 in Shanghai, China, nicknamed He Bo, the founder and former chairman of "Hong Kong Tobacco Co., Ltd.", is a great philanthropist. In 1925, he apprenticed in the family-run printing house, and in 1931 he founded the "Shanghai Xinya Printing Factory". In 1942, he founded a cigarette factory and the brand of "Gaole Cigarette" in Shanghai."

    4. 資本雜誌, Issues 158–163 [Capital Magazine, Issues 158–163] (in Chinese). Capital Communications Corporation. 2001. p. 52. Retrieved 2022-07-25 – via Google Books.

      The article notes: "何伯何英偉家族要何英傑 1911 年於上海浦東出生, 14 歲輟學加入家族經營的印尼,商當學徒, 16 歲升為經理。抗日戰爭期間,他以 2000 元資金創新上海新亞印刷廠,由於當時許多印刷窗因戰停業,令他的印刷廠速發展。另外,他又立下大批紙張,其後紙價飛升, "

      From Google Translate: "He Bo and He Yingwei's family wanted He Yingjie to be born in Pudong, Shanghai in 1911. He dropped out of school at the age of 14 to join the family-run Indonesian business, and became an apprentice at the age of 16. He was promoted to manager at the age of 16. During the War of Resistance Against Japanese Aggression, he innovated the Shanghai Xinya Printing Factory with 2,000 yuan of funds. Since many printing windows were closed due to the war at that time, his printing factory developed rapidly. In addition, he set up a large amount of paper, and then the price of paper soared,"

    5. 香港回归十年志: 2000年卷 [The Decade of Hong Kong's Return: Volume 2000] (in Chinese). Shandong: Shandong People's Publishing House [zh]. 2007. p. 20. ISBN 978-7-20-904247-5. Retrieved 2022-07-25. [zh]&rft.date=2007&rft.isbn=978-7-20-904247-5&rft_id=https://books.google.com/books?id=onC6AAAAIAAJ&q=%22何英傑%22+1911&rfr_id=info:sid/en.wikipedia.org:Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ho Ying-chie" class="Z3988">

      The article notes: "今日日志何英杰 1911 年 6 月 8 日出生于上海浦东。 1931 年创办上海新亚印刷厂; 1942 年创立上海烟厂; 1950 年创立香港烟草公司; 1983 年创立“良友慈善基金会”扶贫济世; 1994 年成立何英杰基金会有限○新任香港美国商会主席凯勒敦促美国国会尽快公司。"

      From Google Translate: "Today's Journal He Yingjie was born on June 8, 1911 in Pudong, Shanghai. Founded Shanghai Xinya Printing Factory in 1931; Shanghai Tobacco Factory in 1942; Hong Kong Tobacco Company in 1950; "Liangyou Charity Foundation" in 1983 to help the poor; Le urges the U.S. Congress to get the company as soon as possible."

    6. Yao, Mu 姚牧 (2001). 范徐丽泰: 香港政坛第一位 "女议长" [Fan Xu Litai: the first "female speaker" in Hong Kong politics] (in Chinese). Shanghai: Shanghai People's Press. ISBN 978-7-20-803815-8. Retrieved 2022-07-25 – via Google Books.

      The article notes: "人称“何伯”的大慈善家何英杰,为香港烟草公司创办人,生前常以无名氏在中国内地和香港两地捐款,估计历年捐款累计逾 8 亿港元。最为人们称道的是,每年在“欢乐满东华”的活动中,他都捐款逾千万元。早年在华东赈灾中捐款逾亿港元。何伯于 1911 年在上海出生, ..."

      From Google Translate: "He Yingjie, a great philanthropist known as "Bo He", is the founder of Hong Kong Tobacco Company. What is most praised is that he donates more than 10 million yuan every year in the "Happy Man Donghua" event. In the early years, he donated more than 100 million Hong Kong dollars to disaster relief in East China. He Bo was born in Shanghai in 1911, ..."

    7. "香港煙草有限公司董事長，何英傑先生之夫人昨擧殯，紳商名流親友致祭者衆". The Kung Sheung Daily News (in Chinese). 1980-05-03. Retrieved 2022-07-25 – via Hong Kong Public Libraries.
    There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Ho Ying-chie (traditional Chinese: 何英傑; simplified Chinese: 何英杰) to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".

    Cunard (talk) 01:18, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 10:18, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete There may be enough media coverage to qualify for notability, but the article itself doesn't contain enough information to justify the subject having its own article. Chagropango (talk) 11:20, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Per WP:NEXIST the sources do not need to be in the article for the article to survive. See also WP:NEGLECT. Jumpytoo Talk 18:13, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Well, they have to be somewhere, per WP:NEXIST! To quote from it: "An article's subject can be notable if sources exist, even if they have not been named yet. However, once an article's notability has been challenged, merely asserting that unspecified sources exist is seldom persuasive." Emphasis on "yet." See also WP:SOURCESEXIST. -The Gnome (talk) 13:15, 1 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Per WP:AFDISNOTCLEANUP, "If there's good, eventually sourceable, content in the article, it should be developed and improved. If, however, there is no usable content, it may well be best to delete." And this AfD is precisely about an alleged lask of usable content. -The Gnome (talk) 13:15, 1 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. The sources provided seem impressive at first glance but do not stand up to scrutiny:
The Oriental Pearl Pudong text simply contains a large bunch of obituaries, a short one of which is about our subject; the book Birthday Password Wealth, Career offer a rather weak testimonial of significance since it contains astrological portraits of wealthy persons born on the same day of the month, one of which concerns our subject; we have a 1980 article in the long-defunct The Kung Sheung Daily News that not even the editor who submitted it could ascertain its relevancy; Mu Yao's book is about Hong-Kong politician Fan Xu Litai, "the first female president of the Hong Kong legislative" within whose long text, built around an interview with the politician there is a single, shlrt mention of Ho Ying-chi; the book The Decade of Hong Kong's Return: 2000 is about exactly what its title says, i.e. a history of Hong Kong in the 21st century, in whichour subject is name dropped; and so on. In short, we have a number of media texts about something else and not our subject, in which Ho Ying-chie is mentioned in texts of rather insignificant length. The best testimony is offered at the time of his death, when two consecutive texts appeared in the South China Morning Post, one obit and one reportage about the funeral. We cannot declare this a promotional text but it's certainly about a non-notable business person. -The Gnome (talk) 13:15, 1 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Basic criteria says:

    People are presumed notable if they have received significant coverage in multiple published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject.

    • If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability; trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources is not usually sufficient to establish notability.
    The Oriental Pearl Pudong contains an estimated 570 Chinese characters of coverage about Ho Ying-chie that takes up nearly a full page about the subject. This is a very substantial source. The South China Morning Post, the newspaper of record in Hong Kong, published two detailed articles about Ho Ying-chie. The other sources are under the Google Books snippets view so I have limited access to them, but it is clear from the snippets the sources (such as the third and fourth sources) provide nontrivial coverage about the subject. The guideline notes that "multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability". When doing combining all the sources here, it is clear that Ho Ying-chie meets Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Basic criteria.

    Cunard (talk) 11:19, 2 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Presuming you do not speak the language, Cunard, one wonders how you were able to establish, first of all, that the plethora of SCMP references are all about our subject, and not about someone else with the same name. (I find it hard to believe it's a unique name in China, in South China, or even in just Hong Kong.) Then, one has to wonder how you were able to establish that the "snippets" (your term, indicentally) are "clearly" proofs of "non-trivial coverage." Shouldn't this be the result of some careful scrutiny by a Mandarin speaker? And multiple "snippets" do not amount, even cumulatively, to much, especially when, as I demonstrated, they are practically all about someone or something else and not about our subject! As to the "two detailed articles" in the SCMP, I already pointed out that one was the necessary obit and the other about the funeral. End of coverage. Ho Ying-chie should try harder, but I doubt that's possible. -The Gnome (talk) 19:33, 2 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
All of the sources say Ho Ying-chie was born in 1911 in Shanghai and was in the tobacco business. Most sources say Ho Ying-chie was in the printing business. This matches what the Wikipedia article says about the subject. All of the sources and the Wikipedia article are definitively about the same person. Cunard (talk) 11:25, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep – When multiple reliable sources (see below) including the local newspaper of record deem that news coverage of his death and funeral are warranted, and many important officials (including Chinese Vice Premier and HK Chief Exec.) and other famous people send condolences and pay tribute to him, it sends a massive signal that the individual is of great importance in local (China & HK) society. Main complaint here used to advocate for deletion seems to be a lack of sources, either to prove notability, or having established that, to provide sufficient verifiable information to be included in the article. This is caused by various factors, primarily wp:systemic bias due to issues like language barrier, recency bias of content available online, lack of archived content or difficulty accessing it, etc. Additionally, despite being well-known enough to have gained the nickname "Uncle Ho", the subject shunned publicity and kept a low profile. In any case, these are surmountable problems and I intend to help with that. Here's a review of sources from my own preliminary search plus others already found earlier (translations my own):
    • Coverage of death
      • EN: Lewis, Tommy (22 Jan 2000) Tobacco tycoon dies at 89, SCMP  Yes
      • EN: Cheung, Chi-Fai (27 Jan 2000) Tributes flow for modest tycoon, SCMP  Yes
      • ZH: 香港煙草公司創辦人何英傑今日舉殯 / Funeral of HK Tobacco Co. founder Ho Ying-chie today. Radio Free Asia, 25 Jan 2000  Yes
      • ZH: 香港大慈善家何英杰先生逝世 / Major HK philanthropist Mr. Ho Ying-chie passes away. China News 2000-1-23  Yes
      • ZH: 钱其琛致电悼念何英杰先生 / [Vice Premier] Qian Qichen sends condolences for Mr. Ho Ying-chie China News 2000-1-26 checkY Partly very short piece, but establishes he was important enough to receive this official gesture
      • ZH: in Asia Weekly 亞洲週刊 Volume 14, Issues 1-17 2000 Page 61 via Google books — full text not available, but assessed SIGCOV from title and snippet  Yes
        香港慈善家何英傑逝世 / 香港人稱「何伯」的慈善家何英傑,一月二十一日病逝,享年八十九歲。何伯是香港煙草公司創辦人。他歷年捐助慈善公益的金額至少八億港元,但作風低調,甚少露面。何伯出生於上海浦東,早年在家族的印刷廠工作,三一年自创印刷廠 ...
        HK philanthropist Ho Ying-chie passes away / Philanthropist Ho Ying-chie, who was called "Uncle Ho" by Hong-kongers, died of illness on Jan 21 at the age if 89. Uncle Ho was the founder of HK tobacco co. He has donated at least HK$800 million to charity over the years, but kept a low profile and made few public appearances. Uncle Ho was born in Pudong, Shanghai, and worked in his family's printing business in his early years before starting one of his own in 1931...
    • Individual profile (published upon his death)
      • 忆香港神密善长何伯 / Remembering HK's mysterious philanthropist "Uncle Ho". China News Feb 2000 Green tickY Yes ← This has so much information! They wouldn't have compiled and published all this if he wasn't notable.
    • Family/dynastic profiles appearing in 資本雜誌 / Capital Magazine — these are SIGCOV of the family as a whole, since some of his descendants are also prominent people; includes biographical info about the subject in substantial detail as the founder of the dynasty. We don't have full text, only snippets, but even those are loaded with usable information.
      • 2001 issues 158-163  Yes
        何伯何英偉家族要 / 何英傑 1911 年於上海浦東出生, 14 歲輟學加入家族經營的印刷商當學徒, 16 歲升為經理。抗日戰爭期間,他以 2000 元資金創新上海新亞印刷廠,由於當時許多印刷窗因戰停業,令他的印刷廠速發展。另外,他又立下大批紙張,其後紙價飛升, ...
        Uncle Ho / Ho Ying-chie family profile // Ho Ying-chie was born in 1911 in Pudong, Shanghai. At the age of 14 he dropped out of school and joined the family printing business as an apprentice, becoming a manager at age 16. During the war with Japan, he invested 2000 Yuan to establish the Shanghai New Asia Printing Factory; the closure of many printers during the war led his printing factory to develop rapidly. Furthermore, he had assembled a large stock of paper [which turned to his benefit when] the price of paper subsequently soared...
      • 2005 issues 218-223  Yes
        ... 對何家無甚認識,直至 1991 年華東水災,已故大慈善家何柱國祖父何英傑(何伯) -千金捐款 1 億元賑災,豐厚身家隨即曝光。何英傑於 40 年代策香煙起家, 1942 年在上海開設煙廠,生產高樂牌香煙。 50 年代在港創香港煙草公司, 1978 年取得萬寶路、摩利士等 ...
        ...the Ho family was not well known until the Eastern China flood of 1991 when the late philanthropist and grandfather of Charles Ho Ho Ying-chie (Uncle Ho) donated 100 million Yuan to disaster relief, which instantly exposed the family's wealth. Ho Ying-chie's career in cigarettes started in the 1940s: in 1942, he opened a tobacco factory in Shanghai to produce Gaole brand cigarettes. He established the Hong Kong Tobacco Company in Hong Kong in the 1950s; in 1978 he acquired [rights to distribute?] Marlboro, Morris, etc...
    • Other coverage and mentions
    • Comment on other sources — Cunard made a good faith attempt to find sources with the aid of machine translation, but only some of it is useful. OCR and translation problems did not help.
      • Oriental Pearl Pudong The Gnome's characterization of this as a collection of obituaries is inaccurate. This is a collection of information about Pudong and related subjects; has sections like 1.2 geography, 1.3 natural resources, 1.4 demographics, 1.5 administrative divisions, 1.6 transport; 2. history; 3. economy ... chapter 5 covers selected people and has a section on Ho Ying-chie. The real problem here is that the publication is dubious, the author as indicated on the cover is a pretty ridiculous nom de plume “可樂泡飯”/"cola soaked rice" and there is good reason to suspect that the contents were pretty much just ripped from Baidu Baike.  No We can't use this.
      • Birthday Secret Code — Wealth & Career Fortune telling / numerology publication  No not usable for notability and there are better sources for biographical info
      • Capital Magazine is one of the two dynasty profiles already mentioned above
      • The Decade of Hong Kong's Return We don't have full text, but I can tell this is a set of historical yearbooks; his death is included in the volume corresponding to the year 2000, with brief biography.  Yes the correct way to assess this is as a tertiary source, published 7~8 years later — subject warranted inclusion.
      • Fan Xu Litai We don't have full text and I'm not sure why this book, seemingly about an unrelated subject, contains biographical info about Ho. Question? Unsure if nothing else, provides more verifiable information
      • Kung Sheung Daily News 1980 article: this is news coverage specifically about the funeral of his wife. checkY Partly they are notable enough in HK society that even her death warranted coverage.
Easily passes GNG. This includes sources for which we have not yet located full text, but with enough Chinese language proficiency can be assessed as SIGCOV based on available title, snippets, publication metadata and other context. There is no good reason to dismiss obituaries that are actual news articles (as opposed to obituaries and death notices in classified ads section). There is plenty enough material to work with so not "enough information" is not a valid concern. — 2406:3003:2077:1E60:C998:20C6:8CCF:5730 (talk) 15:03, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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