Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Christian Duffy

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Sandstein 14:28, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Christian Duffy

[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

this article has no sourcing. i tried to search some sources myself unsuccessfully. AlejandroLeloirRey (talk) 15:14, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bodybuilding-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 15:19, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete not enough sources to pass GNG.John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:12, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 12:45, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Florida-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 12:49, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 00:51, 24 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete -- I was not able to find any reliable sources on this person. Fails WP:GNG. Ealuscerwen (talk) 01:05, 24 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep -- The problem with sourcing might be a result of Duffy's name: he's mostly known as Bull Stanton - it's his gay porn pseudonym - even among bodybuilding fans. There are many sources that could be used in the article and that could prove his article should not be removed. I will improve the article over the next few days, so please don't delete it. AngelOfDestiny (talk) 19:23, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Giving more time so the changes and sources being added by AOD can be assessed more thoroughly here.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 21:06, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@AngelOfDestiny: if you have good sources to prove notability I would withdraw the nomination. thank you for your contribute. --AlejandroLeloirRey (talk) 22:36, 1 July 2020 (UTC) hi @AngelOfDestiny:, the sources added so far do not prove any notability. do you have more sources?. thank you. --AlejandroLeloirRey (talk) 08:46, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean, they not prove any notability? It's clearly stated that he was: 1) a first widely acclaimed bodybuilder to appear in gay pornography, which is remarkable; 2) the US professional bodybuilding champion - not state-level, nationwide. Also: a widely celebrated fitness cover model, and a well-know 90s porn star. If he was only one of those things, yes, it might not be enough but all things considered he's clearly eligible for a Wikipedia article. Beverly Hills Housewives have their own articles - Christian Duffy is okay, too. AngelOfDestiny (talk) 11:07, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@AngelOfDestiny: according to WP:GNG, WP:BASIC, WP:ENT and WP:SPORTSPERSON we need secondary sources to state what you say. so far we only have a few primary sources. the idea behind it is that to prove that an achievement is truly relevant we need a secondary source to talk about it. --AlejandroLeloirRey (talk) 10:39, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@AlejandroLeloirRey: Look, if you want me to find analyses or academic writings on a '90s bodybuilding champion, there's not much I can do. Bodybuilding already is a niche sport. The sources I found about Christian Duffy are pretty much all there is on the internet. It clearly gives all the information anyone interested in him should gather, and if that's not enough, I literally can't provide more. AngelOfDestiny (talk) 14:11, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@AngelOfDestiny: you said that he was on the cover of a few important magazines, I would than be surprised if none of them has ever written a bio. we don't need much but just a couple of good sources. this is not to satisfy me but to satisfy the guidelines for notability. as I said if you and your achievement are notable someone must have written something about it. this is an enciclopedia after all and if we want wikipedia to be taken seriously and be considered reliable we can not rely on anything but good sources, otherwise the whole project will be considered a joke. --AlejandroLeloirRey (talk) 13:09, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@AlejandroLeloirRey: He was on the cover of the most important bodybuilding magazines but that was before the internet era. Today that would equal with a series of articles on websites of Flex, IronMan or Muscular Development. But it was before mid-90s so everything remains in those printed magazine - which I do not own. Obviously, I can't win this one; I can't provide any sources you want from me. I still think those given are legit. There are tons of bodybuilding-related biographies on Wikipedia and a lot of them are from the "golden age" of bodybuilding ('70s, '80s, '90s). Most of them have the same type of sourcing like this page and there's no drama involved. AngelOfDestiny (talk) 16:47, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@AngelOfDestiny: do you believe we can have the exact number or date those magazines were issued? if so we might write to the magazine and try to get a copy of the article. that would take time but i would withdraw the nomination and see if we can prove notability through them... would you be willing to do that? --AlejandroLeloirRey (talk) 16:09, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@AlejandroLeloirRey: I can tell you're judging Duffy on a base of his porn star achievements. He did not win any porn industry awards but is notable as a bodybuilder-turned-gay porn actor, and as an athlete he achieved enough to have his own Wikipedia article. US-level champion on behalf of the NPC federation is a big deal and a definitely a notable success. AngelOfDestiny (talk) 11:13, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@AngelOfDestiny: first of all I am not judging a person but an article and mostly I am wandering if its notability has been proven by the sources. what I need is a in depth coverage of the subject in a secondary source. So far you only gave us sources where the subject is mentioned. this is not enough to prove notability. check WP:SPORTSPERSON --AlejandroLeloirRey (talk) 09:19, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep -- Obiously an accomplished bodybuilding figure, successful enough to being a cover model for the most important bodybuilding magazines in the United States. Famous for his gay pornography work even among bodybuilding aficionados, and probably the very first athlete of such masculine sports to openly admit both his porn history and sexual orientation (homo- or bisexual). Should be kept definitely. Adriano16 (talk) 11:21, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Adriano16: basing on your personal perception of this subject or on sources? I am tired of people taking AFD as a voting process, we should present facts based on sources not what we think about the subject. --AlejandroLeloirRey (talk) 09:24, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

comment In order to help those who are adding sources to save the article I will give you my opinion about the sources that have been found so far. 1) this is an interview and generally interviews are not considered to prove notability as they are primary sources. nevertheless, this one is a good interview so I believe that it has some weight but it is not enough. 2),3),4),6),7) totally primary sources, they only proves he wan some competitions, this type of sources have almost no weight at all into proving notability. 5) this is only something that someone has posted. 8) this is a very short bio (about 4-5 lines) stuffed with pictures. this has no weight into proving notability. 9) another interview, see 1. 10),11) mere mentions, they do not says nothing about the subject. 12) it's 2 pics of the subject. 13) IMDb is not reliable, this source should not even be used. 13) another interview and it reads "advertisement". now, if you want to keep this article, in my opinion, you should either add more sources or tell why my judgment on these sources is wrong and point out exactly which sources you believe prove notability. --AlejandroLeloirRey (talk) 13:29, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
comment So far no one showed a reliable source and the arguments for keep are based on the fact that they are sure that somewhere more sources exists. are this type of argument considered here? --AlejandroLeloirRey (talk) 11:18, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Megan Barris (Lets talk📧) 11:17, 8 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

comment @Gene93k: i think there is a problem with the relisting. it doesn't appear in the correct date. can you check if everything is ok? thank you.--AlejandroLeloirRey (talk) 09:17, 9 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: The 8 July 2020 relisting did not show up in the daily log.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, • Gene93k (talk) 10:52, 9 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete No proper references available. killer bee  11:26, 9 July 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by K6bee9 (talk • contribs) [reply]
Keep -- Per WP:ENT and WP:SPORTCRIT Accomplished bodybuilding figure: cover model for the most important bodybuilding magazines in the United States. Search term of Bull Stanton reveals even more SIGCOV Lightburst (talk) 19:21, 9 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Lightburst: cool, basin on which sources please? --AlejandroLeloirRey (talk) 20:26, 9 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete None of the sources are sufficient for notability. Neither is the fact that he was on a cover of "the most important" bodybuilding magazines in the United States. Since pictures are not in-depth coverage. Which is required for notability. Plus, notability isn't inherited anyway. So being on the cover of anything, no matter how "important" it is, doesn't automatically qualify someone for an article. --Adamant1 (talk) 20:36, 9 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
comment this article was relisted because AngelOfDestiny said he could find some reliable sources but he needed some extratime. well, no reliable extensive covers of the subject have been shown so far and all the keep votes are based on the fact that "there might be more sources"... might... may be I can fly...--AlejandroLeloirRey (talk) 10:16, 15 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If you don't mind a little good faith "criticism", I'm sure everyone can figure that out the crux of this by reading through the discussion. So, there isn't a need to comment after every other vote. --Adamant1 (talk) 11:06, 15 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am sorry, you are right. it is just that I saw it happening a few times. someone pop out and says wait, give me time, I have some good sources and than he adds a few (or many) bad sources. but, yes you are right. sorry. (i am AlejandroLeloirRey) --79.35.212.95 (talk) 08:15, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. He gets chronicled in Jack Fritscher Gay San Francisco: Eyewitness Drummer, and is listed in Superstars: Gay Adult Video Guide. So even on his gay porn career, he is probably notable. See no reason to delete this. Britishfinance (talk) 12:04, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. He also gets three pages in Michael Alago's autobiography, which I have used to expand the article. Britishfinance (talk) 13:35, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your contribution. I never knew sources like that existed in the first place and they really benefit the article. AngelOfDestiny (talk) 16:18, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.