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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. After some additional sourcing, and clean up work, the valid !keep rationales indicate the article now passes our standards for notability. (non-admin closure) Onel5969 TT me 12:35, 2 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Brandon Jenkins (singer/songwriter)

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Brandon Jenkins (singer/songwriter) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Subject lacks significant coverage in reliable sources. Meatsgains (talk) 20:32, 24 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Everymorning (talk) 20:48, 24 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Added albums and sources. Not sure what you want more? [User: Sacha Kay]
You need to add WP:RS Jtbobwaysf (talk) 05:06, 26 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Sacha Kay's only edits have come as part of this topic, and they have cast five keep !votes. Four have been crossed out. KaisaL (talk) 15:37, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy Keep - This article meets none of the requirements for speedy deletion. Needs some fleshing out, not nuking. Karunamon Talk 04:07, 25 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just to be clear: external links to a "Famous Birthdays" site, and iTunes and Napster music catalogues are not reliable sources. Nothing has been added to the article that's of any use at all in meeting our minimum requirements for BLP referencing. That said, a Gnews search does indicate that there are reliable sources out there. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 19:26, 25 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Oklahoma-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 19:27, 25 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep User has already added a !vote - Added the bandonjenkins.com website as a reference, a book (where he's describes as red dirt artist) and allmusic.com. Really. It would be nice to get some possitive feedback to tweak this page the right way. First time I had to create an entire page. Brandon Jenkins is a very well-known Texas Country / Red Dirt artist. And his Wiki-page had been taken over by a sportsman (for everywhere in the red dirt / texas country wiki pages, the Brandon Jenkins link is pointing to the sportsman, instead of the singer/songwriter). Help would be appreciated. Instead I'm now in a constant struggle against deletion. Thanks. Sacha Kay 26 December 2016 12:52
  • Delete This entry reads like a promotional blurb, and lists no sources to establish notability per our criteria of significant coverage. To be listed in Reverb Nation, Napster, All Music, i-tunes, etc. convey only existence, not significance or notability. Same thing with the subjects own website. Roughstock is an unknown source to me, but upon investigation it appears to be a site of questionable editorial oversight that solicits agencies wishing to promote their artists . (See: http://www.roughstock.com/contact-us) As for user Sacha Kay request for help, quite simply this entry needs sources that show independent, third party, objective recognition in significant number per WP:NOTABILITY guidelines . If they exist (and user Shawn in Montreal indicates that they do), please cite them, and use them (rather than promotional verbiage) to craft the content of the article. I’ll gladly change my vote with proper references and sourcing. Best wishes. ShelbyMarion (talk) 22:42, 26 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've read millions of articles on Wiki on how to create a page, including the notability page. And it's still not very clear to me. Would the book that I've found information in be notable? What else would be notable? Since here you basically say that everything I can find about Brandon Jenkins is NOT notable? Where to find notable information? Sacha Kay 12:24, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep User has already added a !vote Removed all the "promotional blurb" that I found on "non-notable websites". Only left information that I found in a book, on the website of a record label and the Texas Music Chart website (wayback machine, for the chart no longer exists). Sacha Kay 14:26, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep User has already added a !vote Added some more information found in The Oklahoman, No Depression (The Journal of Roots Music) and Red Dirt Nation. Sacha Kay 18:26, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Only spurious and thin references so not close to meeting the criteria. KaisaL (talk) 22:24, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep User has already added a !vote And why the heck would the references be spurious?!? It's ridiculous to insinuate that The Oklahoman, No Depression, MTV and Red Dirt Nation are unreal. Just because you don't know things, doesn't justify to call them fake. Why is everyone so opposed to get this page on a REAL and EXISTING singer-songwriter from Oklahoma and Texas validated? I can give of list of at least a 100 living person pages that aren't as referenced as this one, from people less "important" than Brandon Jenkins. I'm done with this. Really. Too bad that Wikipedia seems to have turned into this bureaucratic insanity where people who used to troll the forums now find an outlet for their frustrations. And yes. I'm sorry to sound like this (especially for the ONE person who actually did try to help me), but I'm really very disappointed. I am in no way affiliated with Brandon Jenkins, I just felt sorry for him to see that he's one of the most important singers of his genre and that the links on the Wikipedia-pages where he is mentioned are linking to some sportsman. And if this message gets me banned from editing (because I'm sure that telling the truth is somewhere in regulations too), then so be it. I'm done. [[User:Sacha_Kay|Sacha Kay] 10:01, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Keep I wonder why there can be any discussion at all: an important Texan songwriter who has published several albums – so? Who would delete Guy Clark? --Generalslocum (talk) 11:03, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Note: An editor has expressed a concern that Generalslocum (talk • contribs) has been canvassed to this discussion.
  • Keep Subject is a significant regional artist with international following, worthy of notice. Page should be candidate for Improvement not Deletion, especially since edits are not coming from subject or their promotional people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.157.113.27 (talk • contribs) 15:31, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment This is the only edit by the above IP address. KaisaL (talk) 15:37, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment for closing admin We appear to have some cases of WP:MEAT toward the end of this AFD, old accounts coming back for the first time in a while and so on, after Sacha Kay's long comment. I believe that either canvassing or alternate accounts is the cause. Sacha Kay has also voted keep no less than five times, so I've struck out four of them. A WP:COI is highly likely. All of this should be considered as part of the close. KaisaL (talk) 15:32, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep New entry compares favorably to other existing articles in series, e.g. Stoney_LaRue. Entry is certainly more notable than the main entry for an anonymous football player. Needs improvement, but so do we all. I would note that editors' attacks on a new author smacks of Wikibullying. Reminds me why I haven't edited anything in awhile. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JC Shepard (talk • contribs) 15:48, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
So you just happened to come back after 21 months to vote on an AFD by chance? The canvassing and meatpuppet usage on show actually works against establishing a consensus to keep this article, given that at one point it actually seemed relatively balanced from both sides, but now seems like not one person has suggested to keep this article for good reasons. There's a selection of poor, thin sources, and if that's all that can be found for a 20-year career then it's obvious that this musician has no notability outside of local circles. Arguments like WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS don't help, either. KaisaL (talk) 15:54, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Could you please specify which one of the sources you consider "poor and thin" @KaisaL:? And really, just because you don't know Brandon Jenkins and you don't seem to like new editors, doesn't justify your vendetta against this article.
All of them, honestly. They're either local, blog-sized titles, or passing mentions (i.e. not substantial coverage) in other titles that still wouldn't count as reliable sources. The MTV link is the only one in a potentially reliable source, but the page is in fact an aggregation of metadata, not MTV running a feature. The biography on MTV comes from Rovi, which wouldn't confer notability. So in short, there's not one source that backs up any claim that Brandon is significant. I'll ignore the rhetoric about vendettas, given I only came back here after Sacha Kay protested on my talk page about my original comment. KaisaL (talk) 17:11, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Local (Texas, Oklahoma and Tennessee: about 30 million people living there), yes I agree. Sorry about my misinterpretation of "significance". And it's understandable that you've mistaken No Depression for a blog. It's not very known amongst people who only know highly promoted popular music. Thanks for admitting you came here on a personal vendetta after I've left you a message on your page. I appreciate that, @KaisaL:. (Sacha Kay (talk) 18:13, 28 December 2016 (UTC))[reply]
No_Depression_(magazine) would be considered a definitive reference on Roots music--a reliable source anyway. Then again, I've contributed to their website, and apparently user-contributed websites can't be a trusted source.(JC Shepard (talk)
  • I would like to thank ::@KaisaL: to let me know (me, a new editor) that it's not necessary to put "KEEP" in front of every response, I didn't know that. Thanks for striking them through and teaching me this.
  • Comment for closing admin Yes. I have put the insanity of this discussion about a legit artist on my FB page. I didn't know it was not allowed to do so. I've deleted it. I would like to point out that I do not have alternate accounts and after all this, I might just be deleting the one account that I actually do have. KaisaL seems to be on a personal vendetta of some sort. I am in no way "interested" in Brandon Jenkins. I'm just an Americana music maven (or so I've been called) who wants to see talented independant artists have their own Wikipedia page. Especially the ones who have 16 albums on their track record. Fact is, there are more people voting "KEEP" than "DELETE" and if the closing admin decides that the page should be deleted, I would like to see the motivation and reasons why this article wasn't up to regulation.
Hello,Sacha Kay , I got your messages. I am on the road working this week and don't have time to give this much thought or time. In general, though, if you can find independent, third party coverage of this subject in significant quantity it may have a hope of being saved. So far, unfortunately, what has been cited is probably not enough to qualify for an encyclopedic entry. Don't get discouraged if the article gets deleted. If the subject is indeed notable then you can spend more time finding the necessary sources that will make this page acceptable by redoing it before resubmitting. Best of luck. ShelbyMarion (talk) 17:27, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you so much for your reply User:ShelbyMarion. Of course I'll get discouraged if this article gets deleted. There's a lot of information out there on his SONGS (3 million listeners to "Feet don't touch the ground" and "Finger on the trigger" on Spotify), but, as it usually goes, there's not much in the news about the writers of the songs or independant artists, for all that matters. It would be such a pity if the content on Wikipedia depends on "national third party coverage" and Brandon Jenkins is thus to be considered as non-notable and local (with 16,000 Twitter and FB followers, 16 records and almost constantly songs in the Texas music charts), only because he lives more for music than for promotion. All information in the article is verifiable by solid, established third parties (eventhough not nationally known). Isn't that the goal?(Sacha Kay (talk) 18:13, 28 December 2016 (UTC))[reply]
  • Update: Hello, I'm the editor who proposed the deletion of this article. I have edited the article and removed unreliable sources, which includes a user-generated MTV profile, and news blogs with no authority. Based on the sources listed now, this article is a borderline keep. There are coverage from the Dallas Observer, Austin Chronicle that do establish credibility towards the subject. However, I'm not sure whether it may be TOO SOON; my final decision is to keep or merge with an article pertaining to "Red Dirt Music". Scorpion293 (talk) 22:57, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I won't bang the drum too much further on this, as it's likely to be new commenters that decide the fate of this article, but the Dallas Observer, The Austin Chronicle and Lubbock Avalanche-Journal are all local or regional titles. While their reliability could be deemed more so than the average source (by virtue of having editorial oversight as newspapers), they still don't establish wider notability. This is an artist that's been around since 1994, so not only is it highly unlikely that this is a case of WP:TOOSOON, it's also very concerning that these sources are all that could be found. A musician with a 20 year career should have more than a handful of regional newspapers to go off. Where are their Billboard album chart hits, the features in major music titles? These are the reasons that I lean toward deletion, there should be far more for a musician with this tenure of activity. KaisaL (talk) 23:29, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for what you've done to the article, User:Scorpion293 and thanks for keeping an open mind. (Sacha Kay (talk) 13:27, 29 December 2016 (UTC))[reply]
@KaisaL:, may I kinldy suggest deletion of all artists from 40 European countries? For those are all having a population of less than 20 million and are thus to be considered regional and local?
  • Just to satisfy User:KaisaL: I've added information from an interview by the French Association of Country Music (be aware, their website actually does look like a blog).(Sacha Kay (talk) 13:45, 29 December 2016 (UTC))[reply]
  • Keep I think that the article definitely needs help to bring it up to a better quality, but it's more to do with the fact that the article needs help vs. an issue of notability. I am going to work on the page and improve it. I wish that the approach was not quite so punitive for enthusiastic editors who need help versus what I'm seeing on this AfD. Pedagogy is the more effective method versus all of this here.... I'm not surprised, just disappointed. Another reason to not use AfD x 1 million. -- Erika aka BrillLyle (talk) 16:26, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your input, User:BrillLyle. Nice to "hear" a kind voice. The whole creating of an article procedure made me feel like Don Quixote so far. Your message means a lot.(Sacha Kay (talk) 16:50, 29 December 2016 (UTC))[reply]
Okay I've done a significant amount of work on this article. It now has 30 citations, and quite frankly, due to the prolific nature of Jenkins' work and the heavy regional press coverage reflecting his work within the country music genre, I don't think I have really even scratched the surface on this musical artist. I would request that the tag be removed, as everything up there is good for a start article. Please advise. -- Erika aka BrillLyle (talk) 23:56, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Wow. Just wow. You've worked magic on the article! :) (Sacha Kay (talk) 06:34, 30 December 2016 (UTC))[reply]
Thanks for your input Theroadislong. It's much appreciated. (Sacha Kay (talk) 21:25, 29 December 2016 (UTC))[reply]
  • Keep I'm changing my delete vote from December 26th. Since then user BrillLyle has done the work necessary to cite the kinds of sources in significant numbers to create a legitimate encyclopedia entry. New editors (and editors new to WP:MUSIC) should note that the initial opposition to new articles are not to be dismissive of worthy subjects. Rather, it's to preserve the integrity of wikipedia (or what it aims to be, at least) by insisting everything adheres to our criteria for sourcing. ShelbyMarion (talk) 14:27, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, User:ShelbyMarion. I do understand the sourcing. It's just quite frustrating if people call the Dallas Observer, The Austin Chronicle, The Oklahoman and Lubbock Avalanche-Journal unreliable and unnotable sources. And even dismiss of a notable artist, only because he's not in national charts. It's really easy to just "sit here" and push the delete button, instead of trying to help create a great article about a wonderful artist. You were the exeption, you gave useful information and BrillLyle did an amazing job on re-writing the entire article and adding more information and sources. (Sacha Kay (talk) 14:56, 30 December 2016 (UTC))[reply]
@ShelbyMarion: Thanks. Total agreement than oftentimes it's not about notability but is more about constructing an entry that has enough content supported by good citations to be up on Wikipedia. Am hoping this AfD can be closed now. -- Erika aka BrillLyle (talk) 19:44, 1 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@BrillLyle: Just wondering... How will this AfD be closed? I've tried to look it up, but it says that after 7 days it will be closed, but I couldn't find "how" it will be closed. (Sacha Kay (talk) 20:16, 1 January 2017 (UTC))[reply]
An admin will close it after weighing up the arguments using Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines it will either be keep, delete, or no consensus. Theroadislong (talk) 20:25, 1 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. I haven't looked back to see what earlier versions of the article looked like, but IMO it now looks pretty good. Several independent citations from newspapers etc. (including one in a book published by the University of Oklahoma Press) specifically about him, over more than a decade, make me say he passes WP:NMUSIC. (I haven't even looked at the non-WP:RS sources - never evidence of notability, but often very useful to support facts in a WP:BLP like this.) (BTW I hadn't heard of him.) Narky Blert (talk) 20:38, 1 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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