Talk:Tracy Park

Cash for schoolmasters

An 1842 church report here shows Colonel Davy, then residing at Tracy Park, paying 3 shillings a year each to two schoolmasters, but also says it doesn't know what the reason for it is. (Edit conflicted with Giano - I agree that saying "masonic looking" is nothing to do with freemasonry and possibly one author's artistic licence). Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 14:54, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Question

In the section "Estate and its surroundings", second paragraph, the sentence "These piers clearly reflect the usual design of the large buttresses on the south face... " should that be "unusual design"? --MelanieN (talk) 23:13, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Well spotted! Giano (talk) 11:17, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Sources

The following are the English Heritage listings for the park and buildings; they should provide a much more detailed description of the architecture and its history. Note that a good number of records call it "Tracey Park":

• Tracey Park
• Urns and Balustrade
• Gate piers
• Gate piers

It might be worth talking to Rodw, as Wick is only five miles from Bath. I hope these help, —Noswall59 (talk) 02:23, 21 February 2015 (UTC).

I'm struggling at the moment to find an actual reliable source (as distinct from one that just regurgitated something from here) that lists the park in the Domesday Book and what its name was then. There doesn't seem to be anything on a straight book search. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 13:15, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

• I spent most of yesterday, trying to find anything useful. The English heritage stuff is all very dry and technical - architecturally too much and complex for Wikipedia (IMO) - it's trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. English Heritage also completely misses the point of the gate piers (which never have had gates attached to them) and also gets the owner's name wrong "Charles Rex Davy" was actually Charles Raikes Davy. To be honest, the architecture is not good - it's a compete mess by a very amateurish architect - so there's little point woffling on about it too much. I've seen this before, it's usually when the owner probably interfered with the architect's vision a little too much. I am currently researching some proper books (with little success) as I have a theory that the porch (described by Pevsner damning as "heavy") has a masonic significance. especially as it's flanked by the recurring theme of the 'two columns' inserted in the facade - they are described by Pevsner as buttresses, but they aren't - they are not of the correct height or placement in the facade to support anything. It's clear to me that our Charles Raikes Davy was not only completely barking, but completely obsessed with Freemasonry and probably the occult. I'm not totally happy saying that one room was a Masonic lodge (even though the hotel website claims it was) - can you have personal lodges in private houses? - perhaps we need to find out. Do we have any Masonic experts here? I think there's an interesting mystery here, which might be quite fun to solve. Giano (talk) 13:38, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

I gathered he was pretty big on freemasonry - always a good sign in a clergyman... I have found some newspaper articles recording his death (Western Daily Press, 28 December 1885, p. 5):

DEATH OF THE REV. C. R. DAVY

——

The Rev. Charles Raikes Davy, of Tracy Park, Bath, died at the Albion Hotel, Gloucestershire, on Christmas Day. Mr Davy, who was well known thoughout Gloucestershire as Chaplain of the Freemasons, was a son of Sir W. Davy, Bart., who is buried in Gloucester Cathedral. He was connected by marriage to Dean Law, and was a frequent visitor to Gloucester. A few weeks ago, when in that city, he was attacked with paralysis, and he has been lying ill at the Albion Hotel, and attended by Dr. Fox, of Bath, who was with him at the time of his death.

And Cheltenham Chronicle, 29 December 1885, p. 5:

DEATH OF A CLERGYMAN.—The Rev. Chas. Raikes Davy, of Tracy-park, Bath, died at the Albion Hotel, Gloucester, on Christmas morning. He was the son of Sir William Davy, was a magistrate for the county of Gloucester, and was related by marriage to the late Dean of Gloucester, the Very Rev. H. Law. He was Past Grand Chaplain of the Grand Lodge of Freemasons and lately Provincial Grand Master of the Mark Masons for Gloucestershire. He was born in 1819. Death supervened from an attack of paralysis. The body was taken to Bath this morning.

You all probably know some of this, but it is another source and does add information about his specific titles; I know it does nbot answer questions about the house. I will keep searching for more. Regards, —Noswall59 (talk) 16:13, 21 February 2015 (UTC).

Some more below (I love the "Masonic Pic-Nic" title...) Cheers, —Noswall59 (talk) 17:02, 21 February 2015 (UTC).

Thanks, that's great, I have The Times obituary which is pretty much the same, plus some sundry other mentions, below is really good; I'm tempted to give him his own page, but perhaps we need a little more notability. Giano (talk) 17:16, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

More articles

Bath Chronicle and Weekly Gazette, 8 December 1864, p. 5

ROYAL SUSSEX LODGE.—The Royal Sussex Lodge (No. 53) met on Moday last ... Senior Warden, Rev. C. R. Davy, Tracey Park; ...

Bath Chronicle and Weekly Gazette, 30 July 1868, p. 5

—Masonic Pic-nic.—On Friday last the Freemasons of Frome had a very agreeable gathering at Sheerwater and Longleat, the seat of the Marquis of Bath. The party numbered about 100, and included visitors from Bath, Bristol, Wells, Glastonbury, Weymouth, and other towns. After visiting the house and grounds they dat down to luncheon, presided over by the Rev. C. R. Davy, of Tracey Park. Mr. T. W. Turner, the W.M. of Frome lodge, occupied the vice chair. A number of loyal, masonic and other toasts were duly honoured, and after a dance in the boat-house the party broke up.

Gloucester Citizen, 10 March 1879, p. 3

MASONIC GATHERING AT CHELTENHAM

CONSTITUTION OF A PROVINCIAL GRAND LODGE OF MARK MASTER MASONS FOR GLOUCESTERSHIRE

... [Basically, the Mark Master Masons were opening a Provincial Grand Lodge for Gloucestershire in Cheltenham ]

The Lodge was opened at 2:30, and the authority of the Earl of Skelmersdale having been read by the P.G. Secretary, Bro. [Fred] Binckes called upon Bro. [George Rennie] Powell, P.G.J.W., to give an account of the proceedings which had led to the constitution of the Provincial Grand Lodge. After this the P.G. Master Designate (Bro. the Rev. C. R. Davy, of Tracy-park, Doynton, P.G. Chaplain of England) was most impressively installed and addressed by Bro. Binckes.

...

The proceedings were, of course, of a non-public character, but it may be stated that the usual loyal and Masonic toasts were proposed and received with enthusiasm. The constitution had been looked forward to for some time past by members of the craft, not only in the county of Gloucester, but in the districts adjacent to the county. Bro. the REv. C. R. Davy has won great Masonic popularity not only by his high positition as the Provincial Grand Chaplain of England, but also by his devotion to the general interests of Masonry and the readiness with which he has always assisted in the promotion of the interests of the Order: and the knowledge of his installation will, it is believed, be heard with the greatest satisfaction by the Masonic body generally.

Extract from the entry for Doynton in Kelly's Directory of Gloucestershire, 1897 (p. 141). See [1] and go to page 150. That site has a lot of other directories for Gloucester, which may be useful (index: [2]). Doynton's entry in 1914 is on p. 153 (go to p. 170 on site) and gives Clarke's full name.

Tracy Park is the seat of William Davy esq. J.P.; the mansion, now (1897) unoccupied, was originally a small gabled building of Elizabethan style, but has been added to and enlarged by the different possessorsl the south front is principally in the Italian style: the partk, which is bounded by a double bank or raised earth-work, with a hedge on each side and trees in the middle, contains about 180 acres.

Biographical details of Clarke: Western Daily Press, 6 August 1947, p. 3,

DEATH OF MR C. J. CLARKE

The death took place early yesterday morning, from a heart attack, of Mr C. S. Clarke, of Tracy Park, Wick, near Bristol.

Mr Charles Samuel Clarke, who was born on December 19, 1873, joinede the Imperial Tobacco Co. (of G.B. and I.), Ltd., in 1903, and was leaf manager from 1903 until his retirement from active service with the company in 1926. He was appointed a director of the company in 1912, and remained on the board up to the time of his death. In 1919, he was appointed a member of the executive committee, and held this office from 1919 until 1925. In 1921, Mr Clarke was Master of the Society of Merchant Venturers.

The earliest mention I can find of Clarke at the house is in 1912: Western Daily Press, 14 November 1912,

SHORTHORN SOCIETY

... the following were elected members:—Mr Charles S. Clarke, Tracy Park, Wick, Glos. ...

The Wick Horticultural Society's annual show was held in the grounds up to 1911: Western Daily Press, 29 July 1912, p. 3,

WICK FLOWER SHOW

——

A Successful Exhibition.

——

On Saturday the 24th annual exhibition arranged by Wick Horticultural Society was held at Syston Court. On former occasions the show has been held at Tracy PArk, Wick. By bringing the show somewhat nearer the city and Warmley Railway Station the promoters hoped that the attendance would be better than last season, when a small deficit was reported by the treasurer.

Bath Chronicle and Weekly Gazette, 6 February 1915, p. 2

DEATH OF MR. WILLIAM DAVY.

The death is announced of Mr. William Davy, J.P., head of a well-known local family, the Davys of Tracy Park, a considerable desmesne a few miles on the north side of Lansdown, in the parish of Doynton. Mr. Davy had resided at St. Ann's, Burnham, for some years past, and Travy Park has been the home of Mr. C. S. Clarke, Deceased, who was born in 1851, married in 1888, Elizabeth, fifth daughter of Mr. James Fenton, of Dutton Manor, Lancashire. He was the son of the late Rev. C. Raikes Davy. His sister married to the late Mr. Alexander E. Pole, J.P., formerly of Weston Park, Bath.

Western Daily Press, 8 November 1916, p. 5,

THE LATE 2nd-LIEUT. W. J. DAVY

The death in action is now unnofficially announced of Second Lieutenant William Jas. Davy, Somerset Light Infantry, only son of the late Mr William Davy, of Tracy Park, Gloucestershire, on whose death, at Burnham, in January, 1915, he succeeded to the family estate. Mr Davy, who was 27 years of age, was educated at Willington College and Trinity Hall, Cambridge, where he rowed for two years in the Trial Eights, while he also rowed for his College in the Grand at Henley. He subsequently was in the United States farming, and was in Ceylon tea-planting when war broke out. After having been through the Gallipoli campaign and serving in France with the Ceylon Rifles, Mr Davy was given a commission in the Somersets last summer. He joined his regiment on August 17, and the next day was killed instantaneously while leading his platoon in an attack. His sister, Miss Hele Augusta Davy, succeeds to the Tracy Park estates. On Saturday afternoon a memorial service was held at Doynton parish church, and was largely attended.

Interesting, we need to know who the William Davy was - the earthworks are probably the earthworks which surrounded the Roman Villa; it's hard to know though, if it was the site of a Roman Villa, how planing permission with attendant land drains and bunkers was granted in the 1970s. I had a look at the Kelly "was originally a small gabled building of Elizabethan style" I suspect is the writer being confused by the rear block, all reputable modern sources say that is Victorian Tudor Gothic; similarly the writer says that the the south is in the Italian style - it's not; they are confused by that horrible tower which if anything is a Gothic-Hammer House of Horror= Grecian. Giano (talk) 12:35, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Giano (talk) 12:24, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

The building really is a strange muddle of architectural elements. I will try to find some sources about this William Davy after lunch. I also plan to have a look at Country Homes of Gloucestershire, vol. 2. There is a copy in a nearby library. I will let you know if anything interesting turns up. For now, I have found some information about C. S. Clarke and also found that he was in the house by 1912. Also, there was an annual flower show held in the grounds up to 1911 (the 23rd such show, so I assume it's first was in 1888). I can find little about the bulding works under the Reverend, but I will keep looking. Hopefully, the book will provide some more concrete dates or info that can narrow it down. Thanks again, —Noswall59 (talk) 12:53, 22 February 2015 (UTC).

Great; I had been looking for that info. So it was Helen Augusta (b1880) who sold up - it sounds like the money had been running out for a while. Incidentally. Elsie Clark's daughter married a Pitman (of the publishing family) and lived nearby, at Doynton House, until dying quite recently aged well over 100. Interesting, but I suppose not really relevant to the article. Giano (talk) 15:31, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Description of the house

I have just added information on its later history and the house in the 17th and 18th centuries. I feel that it is more sensible to describe the estate as it is now and then explain how it came to be, so I have moved the "Estate and its surroundings" section above the history section. Of course, if that's not right, then feel free to change. What we are lacking, however, is a description in one place of the house as it stands now. Regards, —Noswall59 (talk) 15:37, 22 February 2015 (UTC).

Charles Raikes Davy

It seems that Gloucestershire and Herefordshire Mark Provincial Grand Lodge (1449) have a portrait of Charles Raikes Davy; I've written and asked them to consider uploading a copy of it. That would be great, as he is probably the single most important person connected to Tracy Park - so fingers crossed. Giano (talk) 20:14, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Later history/20th century

I notice that a lot of editing has been going on today - the article is looking good. I can't help but wonder why the 20th century section is tagged at the end of the article. Is it not part of the history? The title was changed earlier from "Later history", but that is essentially what it is. Isn't later history exactly that - history?

Secondly, the article opens with the history section, which seems a little odd to me. Essentially, this section is about how the estate has changed and how it has come to be what it is today. So, would it not seem more sensible to tell the reader what it (i.e Tracy Park) is before telling them how it came to be that? Regards, —Noswall59 (talk) 18:03, 26 February 2015 (UTC).

I don't care what it is called, but it needs to be at the end of the article to serve as a conclusion, bringing the page up to date. Someone moved it today to the history section; presumably thinking all history sections need to be together - they do not. That's why I clanged it's title. Opening with the history section serves to set the scene and introduce the characters that are to be spoken of later in the page, and hopefully avoid too much repetition and confusion. Giano (talk) 18:09, 26 February 2015 (UTC):::PS: The lead is ridiculously long and detailed, most of that is explained (or should be in the body of the text); the descriptive architecture seems to be scattered about all over. Quite frankly it's a mess. Giano (talk) 18:52, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

It is indeed a mess, but how to clean it up given the ongoing resistance? Eric Corbett 18:58, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

I do just want to clarify here that I haven't been editing this page at all today and I don't intend to move anything about, I just thought that these points were worth discussing and airing. Back to the original points I made, I don't care what it's called either, but my belief is that it is disjointed having it where it is. The description needs to be there too. If you look at any GA article on, say, a church, it will have a history section and an architecture/description section. I get what you are saying about the history section, it does serve that purpose. I think the important part is to separate the architectural info from the history section and give the description section a good once over. It's better to start with too much and trim back, but we need to consolidate it all first. The freemasonry stuff is interesting, but I do question whether is leaning towards either POV or OR in places. The Hagarty Webber Partnership entry about Solomon's Temple is a blog, and I am not sure how reliable the Masonic Dictionary and Masonic Lodge of Education sites are as well. It's fine saying that something resembles a masonic symbol, but can we really say that those two gate piers (or whatever they are) possibly represent Boaz and Jachin? To whom do the two buttresses seem to serve no structural purpose? Regards, —Noswall59 (talk) 19:34, 26 February 2015 (UTC).

When you find yourself in a hole the best advice is to stop digging. Eric Corbett 20:36, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

I am a bit confused by that comment, I am not sure that I am in a hole. I am merely asking some questions and offering my views on how things could be improved. I am not accusing anyone of anything or criticising anyone. I am just trying to be constructive. Regards, —Noswall59 (talk) 21:58, 26 February 2015 (UTC).

No one could imagine that the decorative 'Gothic' buttresses were propping up the wall.--Wetman (talk) 23:03, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you Wetman I agree. Sadly, even Pevsner's heirs declared this poor architecture only gave it a hurried, cursory glance and write-up; thus missing two important things: one a real buttress and some fenestration indicating 16th/17th century original work and, I suspect, some 1st generation English Palladianism too. It is clear to anyone with any practical knowledge of building and structural engineering that those pilasters (best word I can think of for them) are not buttresses - they are a decorative feature. They are not high enough to be buttresses; they do not protrude enough and they are in the wrong place for a strain to be occurring - especially just 20 years after the facade was originally completed. They are clearly meant to complement the portico - which they do quite well. There is some quite fascinating interesting architecture here, and I fail to see why it can't be mentioned because some people never bothered (or were deterred) from looking for it. Giano (talk) 08:47, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Hello again. I agree that it's interesting and I want to see this article be the best it can be. I can see that those "buttresses" aren't structurally significant. But, my query was over the comment stating that they "seem to serve no structural purpose". The summary for WP:OR states that "all material in Wikipedia must be attributable to a reliable, published source", which I find is contradicted by your statement above that "I fail to see why it can't be mentioned because some people never bothered (or were deterred) from looking for it", where by "some people" you are referring to those who have carried all the available architectural studies of the building. I get that the article doesn't state that they do not serve a structural purpose; it states they seem to serve no such function. But, as I said in my original question, this still makes me ask to whom does it seem they serve no such purpose. However, I can see that people support you on this one, and I am no expert: I have only been here for 10 months now, so what do I know? You haven't responded about the reliability of the other sources, but I guess that will come up at GA should you take it there and the reviewer thinks they are questionable. Anyway, I am going to walk away from this now. Hopefully, the sources I found earlier and edits I made to the article have helped to make it better. Good luck with your work on improving it, it's amazing how far it has come already. Best wishes, —Noswall59 (talk) 12:05, 27 February 2015 (UTC).

Architect

In hopes of identifying an architect I checked Colvin: no listing for Tracy Park.--Wetman (talk) 23:01, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks again Wetman, the mid-19th century embellishing has been sort of attributed to John Elkington Gill, but that seems to be based on no more than the fact that he worked on the nearby parish church. My guess is that looking at the architecture, Raikes Davy designed it himself and probably got a surveyor or perhaps even Gill to draw up some working plans. I'll keep searching. If there's any clues, they are in that strange tower, which is why I likened it to the work of Alexander Thomson, but that's more for explaining to readers the ideas and architectural concepts that were floating about at that time, rather than suggesting he designed it - it's not accomplished enough for him anyway. Giano (talk) 14:55, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Helen Arthington-Davy

It seems that Helen Artington-Davy who sold Tracy Park and later the family heirlooms, was actually a Mrs Hodges (of Danestone House, Aberdeen). She renounced the name Hodges in favour of Arthington-Davy for herself and her sons Tom Jeffrey and William Henry Hodges in an announcement in The Times (London, England), Thursday, Sep 22, 1927; pg. 24; Issue 44693.