Talk:Tel Aviv/FAC comments

General

FAC 1

• Oppose As one of the peer reviewers, I think this nomination is premature and the time given to peer review (just over 24 hours) too short. This has the makings of a very good article but the text still needs work by a good copy editor (redundancies, inelegancies, strange constructions). It also needs to sound more like an encyclopedia and less like a prospectus or holiday brochure in tone. Additionally, the article has major info gaps so it fails on comprehensiveness --ROGER DAVIES talk 19:25, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose. Concerned about comprehensiveness, references, and some language. On comprehensiveness, On references, some are not very authoritative on their subjects. For example, Yahoo! Travel being used for the Early History, an interview with a tour guide for Religion. While a few other encyclopedias are referenced, there doesn't seem to be any published books used to inform the article [1] --maclean 20:45, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

FAC 2

• Some measurements are missing conversions. Epbr123 (talk) 15:01, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

  I've fixed the dashes. Every reference has to give the publisher; for example, the publisher of this is Madtchi.com. Also, these statements will need dates to prevent them becoming outdated - "It is currently undergoing redevelopment" "that currently plays in the lower divisions" "the mayor, who is currently Ron Huldai" "will open in the next school year". The article would also benefit from a third-part copyedit. Epbr123 (talk) 16:37, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

• There are still some refs missing the publisher. Epbr123 (talk) 19:46, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
• I'm not yet satisfied that the prose is of the required "professional" standard. A few samples:
• Why are non-breaking spaces inserted after most of the numbers? Undesirable gaps between words may result, where there's little advantage in preventing "50,000" and "unregistered from being split by a line-break. Please address.
• There are many valuable links, so why did I have to remove links to such everyday words as "port"? Please check through.
• Ref 86: "proxy error". No authors appear in the reference citations. Are all sources reliable? I'm concerned. Tony (talk) 11:11, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
• Comment I agree entirely with Tony. The copy has been worked on and added to sentence by sentence without too much attention to the bigger picture. It needs a thorough copy-edit by an experienced editor. Here are some examples

Redundancy: Despite the fact that it is less than a century old ("Less than a century old"?).

Inelegance: the old city walls were destroyed due to increased security allowing for expansion.

Brochurese: As well as having a vast array of museums for tourists to visit, and quarters to explore, many tours of the city are available in different languages focusing on various aspects of the city.

Clarity: the Jewish community of Jaffa, with it Jews with a nation-building mind-set.

Conversions absent: of 51.8 square kilometers & 7,445 people per square kilometer.

--ROGER DAVIES ^talk 12:50, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

• I've had a look at the copy-edit carried out by Finetooth and while he has done an outstanding job in very little time, the copy still needs improvement. Quite apart from Maralia's comments, it still has an unconverted 7,445 people per square kilometer (why is this being ignored?). It would be good to see these issues addressed methodically. --ROGER DAVIES ^talk 10:43, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose I'm sorry but this still needs a very thorough copyedit. Examples:

• Citation format is lacking: many publication names are not italicized; some authors' names are not last name, first name; some cites have no retrieval date

I did not look at the sourcing for the entire article, but the sourcing for some of the more exceptional claims does not appear to meet WP:V/WP:RS:

• "is the oldest port in the world" - this hefty claim needs a really hefty citation. It currently has none.

• This is not a sufficient source; it states Jaffa "is claimed to be the oldest port" (emphasis mine). Maralia (talk) 15:22, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

• "Tel Aviv has the world's largest collection of such buildings" - the citation for this claim is an Israeli travel site

• The citation added for this looks okay, but the link is broken. Maralia (talk) 15:22, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

• "Israel has the highest number of museums per capita of any country, three of the largest of which are in Tel Aviv" - this is cited to two an Israeli travel site and the Israeli consulate

FAC 3

• • The links to the jpost gave me a "no server available" message when I tried them.
  • http://www.lboro.ac.uk/gawc/rb/rb57.html asks at the top of the page to refer to the published version of the paper?
• Comments I'm disappointed to see that the issues I raised in the previous FAC, and continued discussing with you afterward, have not been addressed before renominating. Specifically, my concern was global claims (oldest port in the world, most Bauhaus buildings in the world, most museums per capita in the world) with inferior sourcing from travel sites and Israeli interest groups. I also want to hear a response to serious issues raised by User:Doc glasgow (posted at the same link as above), particularly related to 1b (comprehensive) and 1d (neutral) concerns. Can you explain why you have renominated without addressing significant issues remaining from the last FAC? Maralia (talk) 16:54, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Oppose I first expressed my concern about the reliability of sources for exceptional claims in mid-February. I don't know how I can be any clearer: travel sites and Israeli sources are not remotely close to the high-quality, non-COI sources required to support exceptional claims. Adding multiple sources of the same sort does not make them any more reliable or non-COI. I repeated this concern above when you opened this FAC; you replied that you didn't know because I did not continue debating the point past 3 days after the previous FAC closed. Well, you've known for 10 days now, yet the sourcing for these claims has not been improved. Further, contacting people who had prior concerns about the article, such as Doc g, would be a much more responsible and productive endeavor than bemoaning the fact that there are concerns. Maralia (talk) 17:02, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I have never challenged using travel sites or Israeli sources in general in this article - I have specifically objected to their use to support global claims. None of the other FA city articles you mentioned seems to make an exceptional global claim supported by only self-interested sources. Maralia (talk) 19:14, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

• Comments The article is very good and could probably pass WP:FAC this time around with a little work. A few things are still troubling, though:

"Although it is less than a century old, Tel Aviv is recognized as a candidate global city with strong evidence of world city formation." -- This sentence is uncited. What is a "candidate global city" and where is the "evidence of world city formation"?

The 'local government' section is good, although shouldn't the section be changed to 'government' as a whole, since Tel Aviv is recognized by many governments as the capital of Israel? Although maybe Jerusalem is the capital; I'm not certain here? I think a lot of national government headquarters are still in Tel Aviv, as well as many embassies? The government section could probably also be demoted in the order of sections, probably moved to closer to education & transportation, as I don't think it's nearly as important as the history, geography, demographics, or economy.

I would recommend promoting the 'culture' section and demoting 'education' in the order of sections.

Why does 'Terrorism' have its own main section? This seems to be providing more attention to one aspect of the city, and could be construed as a violation of WP:NPOV. The section mentions several historical events, and I think it would be best if the section was integrated into the 'history' section. I don't think I can support this FAC with it as-is, due to the NPOV issues.

Dr. Cash (talk) 15:08, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

• Query Both Maralia and Maclean stated that issues raised in the previous FAC remain unaddressed; have they been asked to revisit? One of the concerns was reliable sources; I still see, for example, several travel guides. Sourcing needs improvement. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:30, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Over the past 60 years, Tel Aviv has developed into a secular, liberal-minded city with a vibrant nightlife and café culture. is an unattributed editorial.
• Oppose per Maralia. Seriously, the global claims need to be toned down or sourced to neutral academic sources. Travel articles are insufficiently reliable, and the Jewish Virtual Library is insufficiently neutral, to make "Tel Aviv has the most x y in the world" claims. TomTheHand (talk) 01:41, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Oppose. I have watched this article through a peer review and three FA nominations and I still remain of the opinion that it is not FA material. Far too much of the prose still reads like a prospectus and I am unhappy about the determination to stick with peacock claims supported by less than impeccable sources. A Wikipedia article ought to be built on facts extracted from reliable sources, not built on claims which scrabble round for sources. --ROGER DAVIES ^talk 14:11, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose. The article has improved but the prose doesn't meet FA standards. An example: However, lately things have calmed down and the city has started again hosting many tourists and even more annual events. Careless diction (things) combined with nebulous phrasing (many tourists and even more events) dulls the prose. Majoreditor (talk) 05:28, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose Hey, surprised no-one contacted me, since my previous concerns are being discussed here - and are still not addressed. This article is not neutral. Despite several objections references to "the city that never sleeps" and "global candidate city" have not been removed. No, yes I know that both are referenced. However, stuff in the lead should be factual, seldom value judgement and if value judgement are being reported they should be notoriously commonly held views, or from indisputably relevent and authoritative sources. "The city that never sleeps" does not appear to be a general epithet of TA. And the relevance of "global candidate city" is unclear. It seems that rather than trying to find neutral description of TA the author is trying to find positive spin that he can subsequently justify by reliable citations. That's how you write factual promotional material, it is NOT how you write an encyclopedia article. If the lead is written like this, I am loathe to trust the objectivity of the rest.--Doc^g 11:11, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

  What about the Jaffa has been a fortified port town for at least 4,000 years and is believed to be the oldest port in the world and its related claim further down? A couple of points here:

First, even the travel sources don't say that it has been "fortified" for 4000 years. They say the harbour has been used for 4000 years, a very diferent claim.

Second, your article dates Jaffa to the Bronze Age. The following natural ports have settlements dating from the Stone Age: Piraeus, Marseille and Dover. Considerably older.

Now, what about the source for the local government claims? It leads to an empty page.

--ROGER DAVIES ^talk 17:11, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

History

FAC 1

•  Done And now I think of it, perhaps something on the founders. They must have been people of drive and vision but remain anonymous. I also seem to remember reading about the construction problems Tel Aviv has as it's built on sand. Anyhow, expansion, I think is the key. --ROGER DAVIES talk 19:44, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

• Also, with the History section I would prefer to more on recent history (1960s-2000). The "Terrorism" sub-section is awkward - the other History sub-sections describe time periods "Early history", "Mandatory period", "Modern times"...how does "Terrorism" fit into this progression? And it is just a list of attacks (might make a better table) but what was their effects (social, economic, etc.) on the city?
• ..Soon after, thousands of the 16,000 Jews of Jaffa moved north... - could be more specific here. Could mean anything from 2000 to 15000.

FAC 2

• Etymology — The third "Tel Aviv" has to be in italics or double quotes; see why?

FAC 3

• • http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID={68314118-6D77-4E06-B4D5-282AF4285BC9} I'm a bit uncomfortable using this as a source for life under the Turks. I think I'd rather see a history book referenced for some of the details this is sourced to.
  • I still don't like the post-1948 history section. According to this all that happened was bombings and killings. Neither the History, nor the Demographics indicate whether the population or city grew during this time. No one said history has to be interesting.

TO DO

• Brief narrative of Jaffa's colonisers throughout history.
• History of the Ottoman period (based on Patrick Kinross' "The Ottoman Centuries")
• What else happened post-1948?
• Incorporate terrorism?

QUESTIONS

Do we need all the street detail in this paragraph?

Another housing society, Nahalat Binyamin, began to build on April 11, 1909, after holding a lottery to divide up the land. Within a year, Herzl, Ahad Ha‘am, Judah Halevi, Lilienblum, and Rothschild streets were built and a water system installed. 66 houses (including some on six subdivided plots) had been completed. At the end of Herzl Street, a plot was allocated for a new building for the Herzliya Hebrew High School, founded in Jaffa in 1906. On May 21 1910, the name Tel Aviv was adopted. Tel Aviv was planned as a European-style garden suburb of Jaffa, with wide streets and boulevards.

--ROGER DAVIES ^talk 12:57, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Incidentally, what does "66 houses (including some on six subdivided plots) were completed" mean and why is it important? --ROGER DAVIES ^talk 12:57, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Geography

FAC 1

• And on the language, it could do with some clean-up, like:
  • "pleasant springs and autumns" - use a more quantitative adjective
  • "Tel Aviv boasts on average over 300 sunny days a year." - people boast about things, perhaps use "experiences"
  • "Many see the best time of year in Tel Aviv as April..." - specifically say who, like "According to xxx, many see the best..."
• combining a Mediterranean feel with culture and complexity. -arrgh - sounds like a travel brochure. Should be able to lose this but section will need tweaking. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Casliber (talk • contribs) 12:20, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

FAC 2

• "it is exceeded in size by Jerusalem, the modern-day capital of Israel" Can we avoid the phrase "the modern-day capital of Israel"? It isn't exactly relevant to the article, and it brings us into POV territory, since that claim is disputed by much of the international community. We probably could find an undisputable form of words, but perhaps simpler to say nothing here than to complicate the lead.--Doc^g 00:07, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Economy

FAC 1

• There's nothing, for example, on Tel Aviv's commercial infrastructure, which needs its own section.

FAC 2

• "Tel Aviv is Israel's economic hub, with many high tech firms maintaining offices or research and development facilities". Hi-tech, or if "high" is used, at least hyphenate it. With -ing is clumsy and, strictly speaking, ungrammatical. So some firms have R and D facilities but not offices? More seriously, the causality doesn't work: why does the presence of R and D facilities make the city an economic hub? What a bombsite.
• "Built on sand dunes, farming in Tel Aviv was not profitable, and maritime commerce was centered in Haifa and Ashdod. Instead, the city gradually developed as a center for scientific and technical research." Um ... when?
• The city is considered by Newsweek to be one of the top 10 most technologically influential cities in the world." Is Newsweek sufficiently authoritative (who wrote it, anyway—that would help a little, but not enough)? It's like citing a daily newspaper—some journalist's opinion—which may or may not have tinges of commercial influence. Be careful; some may accuse the article of peacockery over such claims and sources.
• "Israel's center of high-tech"—last item is not a noun, but appears to perform that role here.

Culture

FAC 2

• Comment

  Tel Aviv is known as "the city that never sleeps" due to its nightlife and 24-hour culture.

  I'd remove that one. We usually refer to New York as the 'city that never sleeps' and the reference supporting it does not seem to be reliable enough for a featured article. Squash Racket (talk) 13:20, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
• Again, a problem of logic: "Tel Aviv is the country's cultural capital, and a center of music, theater and the arts." "and"? So being the cultural capital wouldn't mean that it's a centre of m, t and the arts by default? The A plus B doesn't work properly here; recast.

FAC 3

• • What makes http://www.databaseOlympics.com/ a reliable source?
    • Different source done
      • You need to cite that as a book, since you are using google books to reference it. Ealdgyth - Talk 02:41, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Architecture

FAC 3

• • http://www.emporis.com/en/ "allows users and companies from all over the world to participate in the completion of building information in their own cities" so what makes this a reliable source?

OK - most city articles dont have great depth in recent history as what is included there is just what isnt in other sections. For example, talking about economy would be copying the economics section, the developent of architecture, the architecture sub-section. Im not sure it is worth it for repitition and so neccessary. Flymeoutofhere (talk) 21:06, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Demographics

FAC 1

• The reference provided for the "According to December 2001..." paragraph deals with the age distribution (providing the median age and comparing to the District or national average would be good, too) but where does the average monthly wages come from?--maclean 06:20, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
• In Demographics, the paragraph starting "According to December 2001 statistics..." has no footnote indicating what statistics (compiled by whom?).

FAC 2

• I now notice that the Religion section makes no reference to mosques though it does mention churches.

Government

FAC 1

• Another gap is the local governance, nothing on the city council, city representatives, how often they're elected etc. Again this needs its own section, say dove-tailed into the districts' one.
• please include information on the city government. Currently there is a list of mayors section but how many people are on council? are elections at-large or wards? what is the city gov responsible for? is the city part of a larger political unit? and so on.

• Thank you for providing a "Government" section for the article. Perhaps it can be extended by saying some of the services that city government provides. I'm not familiar with how the Israeli government system works but some examples could be fire protection, police (no mention of police or crime yet...well other than the terrorism sub-sub-section), provision of drinking water, sewerage, etc. --maclean 06:20, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

FAC 2

• AlsoThe Local Government section still doesn't talk about support services and who provides them.

FAC 3

• Comment. I participated in the first FAC. A concern that has not been addressed is the use of an interview with a tour guide to reference the entire "Religion" section. Something more authoritative should be used. --maclean 17:56, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
  • The city has 200 known homeless people... The reference says that 200 people use that one homeless shelter, not that there are 200 homeless people in total. Likewise with the In London, for example, 1.9% of the population... stat, not total but an maximum estimate of single homeless people.