Talk:Sheep dog

Content of article

This article includes two very different types of dog: herding dogs and livestock guardian dogs. These types are united only by their use in connection with shepherding, and often (but not always) by the use of the name "sheepdog". It seems to me that essentially we have one article covering two meanings of the English word "sheepdog" (see Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a dictionary for discussion of this situation and guidance on it). Both types of dog are well covered and listed in their separate articles, and I am unclear of the value of a list repeating those lists, especially as the two types are completely mixed here without explanation.

At present we have the following:

• Herding dog. Article about herding dogs and their behaviour, with extensive list of breeds and types.
• Livestock guardian dog. Article about guardian dogs and their behaviour, with extensive list of breeds and types.
• Sheep dog. Short article, with mixed list of dogs all of which occur in the other two lists.

I suggest what we need instead is this:

• Herding dog. As now.
• Livestock guardian dog. As now.
• Sheep dog. Disambiguation page directing to the other two, and also to the dozen or so breeds which are known as "sheepdog".

Of course there are some breeds used for both purposes, and there is nothing wrong with these being listed in both Herding dog and Livestock guardian dog.

Any views? Richard New Forest (talk) 13:12, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

No comments after two months, so I've gone ahead as proposed – except I have not included all the breeds called "sheepdog". For one thing, there are dozens of them, and for another, none of them is called just "sheepdog" – so they cannot get confused with other "sheepdogs" and do not belong on a dab page. Richard New Forest (talk) 13:09, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm not really comfortable with this change (your comments didn't come up on my list until the page was changed into a dab). Are the 150 links to this page fixable? It seems to me that when the term "sheep dog" is chosen rather than herding dog or "guardian dog", it is referring to dogs that perform both the tasks of herding and guarding. It's not necessary for the page to contain a list of dog types, but couldn't it use summary style to refer readers to each of the other two articles? Use of a disambiguation page implies that one usage is correct and the other is incorrect in each case. Dekimasuよ! 13:35, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree, take the link from List_of_fictional_dogs. Theres no way of knowing without doing extensive research what type of sheep dog that is, and none of the options provided on this dab page talk about sheepdogs at all really, the two main things listed seem more about the type of thing a dog does. Need a general article or summary style article as mentioned by Dekimasu on sheepdogs which can link to those articles rather than just a disam page. BritishWatcher (talk) 17:02, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Good update BritishWatcher (talk) 09:53, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Sorry no-one seems to have noticed this discussion before, and I did not mean to bounce anyone. However, to keep this as an article, my points above do need to be answered satisfactorily. We cannot have an article about two different things that share a name – please see the MOS link I gave above: Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a dictionary. This isn't something we can get around (without a large change to WP conventions).

As to the many links to sheep dog, surely most of those are really intended to be links to one of the dab items, or to one of the breeds? I do not believe that on the whole they are linking to dogs which do both tasks (leaving aside the guarding that all herding dogs do). To take the example above, I don't think the links on List of fictional dogs are intended to link to here – as far as I can see they all really mean herding dog (or perhaps just Border Collie) – certainly not a mix of both types.

I don't think Sheep dog can be a list page either, because list pages must normally be called "List of..." (see WP:STAND). However, I see no reason why we could not have a "list of sheepdog breeds" page or some such, as well as a dab. Any list would of course have to be clearly segregated into the two types (something along the lines of dairy, beef and dual-purpose cattle in List of cattle breeds). Richard New Forest (talk) 15:46, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Can I assume that as there are no further comments forthcoming, there is no objection to returning the page to a dab? Richard New Forest (talk) 19:26, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

I still think its far more useful in its current format than a simple dab page. I think it would be far more difficult than you think to decide where to redirect alot of the links coming into this page. A sheep dog is a type of dog, it really does seem strange to me that there would only be articles on "the actions" of a sheep dog herds / guards, im not a dog expert.. i always thought sheepdogs did both of these things, not just one or the other lol. Ill take a look and give u a couple examples of the links which would be problematic. BritishWatcher (talk) 01:24, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

• The Day Today - "a segment which reported on a sheepdog averting a helicopter disaster"
• Shapeshifting - "that causes him to randomly transform into a sheepdog."
• Dumb and Dumber - "converting his van (a 1984 Ford Econoline) into a sheepdog."

There are a few examples, without doing extensive research is not clear cut where to direct those pages to. Thats why i think we need a general basic article on "sheepdogs" which provide links to the different actions of a "sheepdog" and the different breeds. Not just a single dab page. If i was looking for Sheepdog, id expect an article because its a type of dog, id be confused if i had to choose between a herding dog or a guarding dog. If any form of sheep dog can do both herding/guarding, i dont see how someone can choose which page to read. BritishWatcher (talk) 01:40, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I still do not think it is uncommon for the same dog (or breed) to perform both tasks, regardless of whether the name of the breed contains "sheepdog". Legacy of the Dog, for example, says about the Catalan Sheepdog, "...selectively bred to better withstand the harsh weather of the mountains and moors, this breed has an excellent learning ability, which has led to its use not only as a herder but also as a police and guard dog." You say we can't have an article about two things that simply share a name, but it's not clearly the case that we're dealing with different things. Even in the context in which an article/link refers to a sheepdog as herding as opposed to guarding, that doesn't mean the dog doesn't do guarding at other times. Dekimasuよ! 12:50, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

All herding dogs also guard to some extent, but guardian dogs don't herd – herding is an instinct that dogs either have or do not have. A dog which does both is really a herding dog. What is meant by just "sheepdog" is not so difficult to work out – it's usually fairly obvious from the context. If used by native English speakers in a general context, it usually means a herding dog – often Border Collie or a more generic collie type. If a particular breed is meant, it depends on the breed – but if a particular breed is meant, any link would surely be to that... The point is that "sheepdog" is not one type of dog, it's a word used for some examples of two very different types. We simply can't have one article covering both of these.

One solution to this would be to split the current article into two articles disambiguated by epithet, such as for example Sheep dog (herding dog) and Sheep dog (livestock guardian dog). However, in that case we'd have to find a way of distingishing each from herding dogs and livestock guardian dogs more generally. Unfortunately the use of "sheepdog" rather than "collie" or some other term in the breed name is fairly arbitrary, and nearly all herding dogs and livestock guardian dogs work with sheep, even if they also work with other livestock. Moreover most "sheepdogs" also work with other livestock – my Welsh Sheepdog could work sheep, cattle and horses, and would even bring a wild fallow deer herd to me! (This is him). Therefore I can't think how you would distinguish, for example, Sheep dog (herding dog) from Herding dog itself. I still think a dab would be a better solution. Richard New Forest (talk) 19:49, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Any further comments...? Richard New Forest (talk) 19:25, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

No further comments, so I've returned the page to a dab. Richard New Forest (talk) 19:51, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

If your dog does not heard then you will have to do some training with your dog. Don't be scared if your dog is shy. If they are very shy then you should try to get another one to help that one with its confidence. I had one and I got another one that was 3 years old and knew how to heard. Now they are both doing great and hearding like never before. They also heard in the chickens. Border collies are very smart. You will have to play with them a lot because they have tons of energy and love water. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.90.155.94 (talk) 17:37, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Inclusion of Border Collie on dab page

User:Hanii Puppy has made an edit with the following summary: "Re-added Border Collie. A Border Collie isn't a type of dog, it's a specific breed." I've reverted this for the moment.

We have to remember that this is a disambiguation page, which lists WP articles which have or might be assumed to have similar titles: in this case "Sheep dog" (see WP:MOSDAB). There are two classes of dog commonly known as sheepdogs, and both are already listed: Livestock guardian dogs and Herding dogs. The Border Collie is one of the latter, and so it is already covered.

Yes, you can use the term "sheepdog" loosely when talking about a Border Collie, but then you are using it as a synonym for "herding dog" – for example you might say "the Border Collie is a sheepdog, and so is the Bearded Collie". You could not however use "sheepdog" to mean that breed in particular – for example, you'd never say of a Border Collie: "that's a Sheepdog, not a Bearded Collie or an English Shepherd".

If we included Border Collie, there would be equal justification for including every other breed or type of dog that might be called "sheepdog" – but as I pointed out in an earlier discussion, there are dozens of these, and anyway they are all already listed on either Livestock guardian dog or Herding dog. I think we could only include the Border Collie as an item if there was evidence that the term "sheepdog" is commonly used as an alternative name for that breed specifically, to the exclusion of other herding dog breeds. Does anyone have such a ref? Richard New Forest (talk) 11:13, 4 February 2010 (UTC)