Talk:Planet of the Apes/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Images

I've managed to find a lot of good images to illustrate the article, but we're short a few on some of the main figures. The main ones are Arthur P. Jacobs, Paul Dehn (the chief writer for the original sequels) and Kim Hunter (Zira). Unfortunately, all of them have passed away, so it's hard to find pics of them in the public domain. I found an odd illustration of Pierre Boulle, but clearly a photograph would be better if we can find one in the public domain. It might be easier to find public domain photos of Apes merchandise and toys for that section of the article. Such photos could be added to the article, possibly replacing photos that are there currently.--Cúchullain ^t/c 19:16, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

The cartoon image of Boulle is ridiculous. He has his own article and it contains a perfectly respectable non-free image of him there. I don't think you'd be sucessful putting it on this article too, so that's probably out. That said, there is really no need to put his picture here. There seems to be some sort of assumption that we NEED a picture of Boulle here and ANY picture will do... even if it's a really bad hand drawn cartoon. C'mon now... this really is a no-brainer. – JBarta (talk) 19:28, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I suppose we don't "need" an article either, but we've got one anyway. It would be "better" if it contained images of the key figures. Being the guy who created the franchise, yeah, Boulle's pretty important here. The non-free image on his article is only usable there; it can't be used here. If you have a better image that can be used, please add it, otherwise the drawing is what we've got.--Cúchullain ^t/c 19:38, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

There are a lot of articles that are missing pictures because we don't have anything free, but that doesn't mean we draw a 3rd grade sketch and slap it in the article. For whatever reason some misguided user did just that in a pitiful attempt to supply a Pierre Boulle image for the article. I uploaded a proper non-free replacement and we're using that now. Unfortunately we're stuck with that thing and now you're over here in this article trying to use it... and it doesn't really even need an image of him to make a good article. He has an image... in his article. THAT should be the baseline.... be content with that until something else shows up... not use unnecessary crap til something shows up. And unless a PD-US-no notice image shows up on ebay (or somewhere), something probably won't show up... so be happy with two good articles and one good image. – JBarta (talk) 20:00, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

If you consider this a waste of your time, you're free to drop it at any point. Considering this is the man who created the franchise, the article benefits from having a picture of him here. As you say, we don't have a free image to use, and we work with what we've got.--Cúchullain ^t/c 21:00, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

The article does NOT benefit from having THAT picture in it. NO article benefits from containing such a substandard image. Per MOS:IMAGES, "Poor quality images... should not be used." – JBarta (talk) 21:03, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm not going to argue any more over this stupid picture. Since you're concerned about the state of the article, I hope you'll spend some time trying to find a free picture.--Cúchullain ^t/c 21:11, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I find pictures for articles all the time. Matter of fact I looked on ebay earler for something, but found nothing. Quite honestly, it bothers me to no end the restrictive non-free image policy we have. Lots of articles of LIVING people have to go without images because there's nothing free. Sometimes a person needs to die before they can have a picture in their Wikipedia article. – JBarta (talk) 21:22, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree that no picture is better than a drawing unless there is something notable about the drawing (self-portrait, done by a famous artist, etc).AbramTerger (talk) 12:24, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

The Boulle sketch bothered me as well. Glad to see it gone. - Gothicfilm (talk) 09:39, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Subheadings

Cúchullain has put in "Live action" three times for the TV series subheader in the last two days, despite being reverted. There's no animated series called "Planet of the Apes" as "Live action" implies. It's also misleading in it implies one of the earlier films may have been animated. Under WP:BRD he's supposed to discuss this, not put the disputed item back in. With his last edit he claimed There's already a heading titled "Planet of the Apes" under "Original film series", and they need to be distinct. I had put in "Planet of the Apes TV series" for the subheader. I thought it was obvious that is not found under "Original film series" or anywhere else in the TOC. It is fully distinct, per MOS:HEADINGS. - Gothicfilm (talk) 05:57, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Both "TV series" and "live action" seem redundant, but I agree that "live action" is also slightly confusing. MOS:HEADINGS' need for distinction is only a "preferably", though - given that both sections link to their own full articles, we don't have to worry about inbound links here. --McGeddon (talk) 08:58, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Planet of the Apes (TV series) is preferable to Live action Planet of the Apes as the subheading. – JBarta (talk) 09:06, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

I've restored it to "Planet of the Apes TV series". It may be changed back to its original "Planet of the Apes" if others prefer, but "Live action" is misleading and needed to go. And the reason Cúchullain gave for putting it in was quite mistaken at best, as explained above. - Gothicfilm (talk) 09:35, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

No, it was not. I linked to the relevant guideline both times I restored the change. There's simply no benefit to having multiple headings that are the same as each other (and the article title), and it can confuse direct linking, editors reading edit summaries, and visually impaired readers using a screen reader. Thank you for adding "TV series" to the header; making a new suggestion that deals with the obvious problem is a lot more productive than just reverting.--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:21, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

No, it was not a mistake? You not only did not notice that I had put in "Planet of the Apes TV series" for the subheader before the third time you reverted it, but you also did not notice I pointed out the obvious distinction from Planet of the Apes in the paragraph that started this thread? You need to pay a lot more attention to detail before hitting the undo button. All the time spent on this thread was because you didn't notice "Planet of the Apes TV series" was already being used, and you reverted it anyway. - Gothicfilm (talk) 00:27, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

The initial change was not a mistake, for the reasons I gave, and shouldn't have been reverted. Suggesting another title that solves the problem you missed is fine, and I apologize for missing what you did with the second revert. However, a clearer explanation on your part or a simple note on the talk page acknowledging the problem would have avoided the issue entirely.--Cúchullain ^t/c 04:12, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

You're not helping yourself by saying I missed something. McGeddon didn't think it was a problem either - we don't have to worry about inbound links here. And I clearly wrote in the edit summary "This is actually distinct, per MOS:HEADINGS". That should have been more than enough to spur you into looking at the text I had put in. In fact you should always bother to look at what someone has done before rushing in to revert it. Gothicfilm (talk) 01:08, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Since you're suddenly so concerned about reverting, I assume you'll stop doing it yourself. We've already established why it's important to avoid redundant headers: there's no benefit to it, but several disadvantages. I don't know why you're arguing about that.--Cúchullain ^t/c 12:53, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

What is your deal? I was concerned about you reverting without reading the text. Don't try to change this into something it's not. This is about you reverting for reasons that were completely invalid. "Planet of the Apes TV series" is distinct from "Planet of the Apes". Read the first paragraph of this thread. Stop repeating your complaints about an earlier edit others agreed with. And I actually read the text I was reverting and knew what I was doing. Unlike you. I suggest you stop trying to defend that by implying what I did was in any way comparable. You need to pay a lot more attention to detail before hitting the undo button. - Gothicfilm (talk) 16:08, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

I suggest you stop trying to lecture others for things you yourself have done repeatedly at this article. I already explained that my second revert was a mistake (the first, however, was obviously not). Everyone appears to agree with the current content. I don't see what you're arguing about.--Cúchullain ^t/c 17:58, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Really. Except I have never done a revert claiming it was for something it clearly wasn't, and without bothering to actually read the text. You should just accept what you did. Instead you now accuse me of doing the same thing - repeatedly. It's incredible you admit this mistake, but then undercut whatever goodwill that should come from that admission by accusing me of the same thing. - Gothicfilm (talk) 18:26, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Okay, I'm going to go back to working on the article now.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:47, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Bloated

It seems to me that each section for a movie or a TV show is too long. Each one of these sections points to its own article and that is where the minutiae should be. Note the Star Trek page doesn't even get into the details of the various films, but simply presents a list. I'm not suggesting that we do that here, but the purpose here is to offer a very brief introduction to the work and leave (or move) details to the main article. The result makes this article more concise and keeps unnecessary duplication to a minimum. Editors love adding to articles and often the result over time is bloat. Sometimes less is better. – JBarta (talk) 10:11, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

The franchise article can do without the plot summaries. A description of each film's premise would be preferable. If people want to know the beginning, middle and end of each film they can go to that film's page. However I should point out that each film in the original and reboot series, with the exception of Beneath, is placed in a whole new time period with an entirely new set-up. Meaning each one had to be developed almost as a stand-alone film, much more so than most sequels. So a discussion of each film's premise and development on the franchise page is fully warranted. - Gothicfilm (talk) 11:06, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I tried to keep the summaries concise, but now that most of them are up it may be worth trimming them back some. We could cut back on some of the plot summary, but most of the development and reception material speaks to how they figured in the development of the series. I actually used the Star Trek article as a model here. The main difference is that that Star Trek has a lot more material to cover than this does, and there are a lot more sub-pages (notably there's a separate article for Star Trek (film series)). That's not really an option here. Also, bald lists aren't really useful.--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:17, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

As all the other film series pages I've been on does not feel obligated to cover the plots of each film and therefore spoil it, I suggest we do the same here. X-Men (film series) and Superman in film do it just fine without spoiling what happens in the latest films. -- Anythingspossibleforapossible (talk) 14:12, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Not spoiling the ending is not a reason to remove material.--Cúchullain ^t/c 15:01, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

But you're agreeing to reducing the plot summaries. If only each film's premise is discussed, than the same thing is largely accomplished. Although of course even the premise of the second and third film can give away the ending of the previous one. Nevertheless it is unnecessary to spell the endings out on the franchise page. - Gothicfilm (talk) 00:11, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Oh, I agree we can shorten the plot summaries if others think they're too long. But we shouldn't do anything on the basis of avoiding "spoiling" the plots. It's impossible to discuss the series without discussing the ending of the first movie, for instance. It's one of the most famous movie endings and it was a change that shaped the way the rest of the series developed.--Cúchullain ^t/c 00:45, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree about what happens about the first film if it's used in what it did for the franchise, not just its big shocker ending. The film's twist ending could go without being mentioned because in all honesty anybody who's new to it could think naturally the second film just continues from where the first film ends, like most sequels would. The fact that it ended with the big twist is immaterial to its successor. (I'm not sure this could work with the third and fourth.) We don't need to mention it for the sake of mentioning it. If you think it really is beneficial to the page, I won't argue with you about it though. -- Anythingspossibleforapossible (talk) 01:06, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm forgetting how the second one ended. So, of course, that would be problem, although not for those who mind the spoilers, of course. -- Anythingspossibleforapossible (talk) 01:13, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

While most of the plot of Beneath is because of the discovery at the end of Planet, it's only through a chance discovery by Brent, himself, does it pay off, and his and Taylor's stories connect, otherwise it'd be Planet all over again. The beginning of Beneath isn't really affected by its predecessor, since Taylor simply goes on an aimless trek across the beach until he goes missing. So, I guess it's what's most preferred. Sorry for the anaylsis. -- Anythingspossibleforapossible (talk) 13:24, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

The point is, the "it was Earth all along" twist in the movie is a change from the book (where the astronaut really is on a different planet), and it's a pretty substantial development prominently covered in the sources. It shaped the entire rest of the series: in (almost) every subsequent film and incarnation, the "Planet of the Apes" is actually future Earth. This is just one example, we can't possibly discuss the franchise in an encyclopedic fashion without spoiling something for someone, and by our relevant guidelines, we don't write our content based on avoiding spoilers.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:39, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

This discussion seems to have petered out, but I plan on taking a stab at this shortly. I plan on reducing the plot summaries to a few sentences, but keeping the major cast members and whatever plot developments reflect on the series as a whole (according to the sources I've got). Additionally, the fact that several books have been written on the series may be worth a mention in the impact and legacy section.--Cúchullain ^t/c 04:20, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

From my perspective it hasn't really petered out. Of course I've had the urge to dive in myself and start trimming, but my experience has been that when that's done, the editor that added all the information in the first place (or the most active editor) jumps in as well and adds it back in. Thus beginning a joyful Wikipedia-style tug of war... of which I tired long ago. Instead, I figure it's more efficient to bring the issue up, make a good case and hope that most active editor does the trimming himself (or 'themselves' as is sometimes the case). That way the job gets done with the least amount of fuss... sometimes. Other times nothing gets done (sigh), but at least I haven't wasted monumental amounts of time going precisely nowhere. So Cúchullain, I look forward to your efforts. – JBarta (talk) 13:25, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Good work on the revision to the section on the novel. However, one thing I noticed, and it is not any change that you made; but at the end of the third paragragh it states, "Xan Fielding translated it into English as Monkey Planet for publication in the UK; the publishers changed the title to Planet of the Apes for the American release." This is just not true. The publishers didn't change the title for the American release. 'Planet of the Apes' is the proper english traslation from the french. It was the UK publishers that changed the title to 'Monkey Planet' because they thought it would sell better with that title. This is noted on the novel's page in the 'Publication History' section: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planet_of_the_Apes_(novel)#Publication_historySonOfThornhill (talk) 23:13, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

This is a perfect example of why minutiae should go into the article proper, while articles such as this should be limited, brief and serve as more of a summary of the whole and introduction to the various main articles. The more information that's packed into this page, the more likely there will be discrepancies such as the one pointed out.... especially over time. – JBarta (talk) 03:45, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

The title of the book that originated the franchise isn't really "minutia" we can avoid. The chronology of the switch from/between the two translations did ring false to me, too, but it's what the cited source says: "His novel was translated by Xan Fielding into English, and released in Great Britain as Monkey Planet; later retitled Planet of the Apes for its American release". The contradicting material at Planet of the Apes (novel) isn't cited, and there are several other sources that support the version given in Planet of the Apes Revisited. Perhaps it's the novel's article that needs to be updated.--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:05, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

There are also sources that dispute the version given in Planet of the Apes Revisted. The POTA wiki gives a detailed publication history of the novel: http://planetoftheapes.wikia.com/wiki/La_Planète_des_Singes#Initial_Publications . But regardless of which came first it doesn't change the fact that the title "Planet of the Apes" is the proper english translation of the title from the french. SonOfThornhill (talk) 17:14, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

The French word "singe" means both "monkey" and "ape", so both are accurate translations. And of course being correct doesn't mean it was first. The Apes wikia does indeed say "Planet of the Apes" was first, but it doesn't give a clear citation for it (and the Wikia is not a reliable source). The source we do have, and others, say "Monkey Planet" was first.--Cúchullain ^t/c 22:03, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

No, "singe" on its own is monkey but when modified as"des singes" means great apes. And the POTA wiki does cite the Time magazine review from November 1963. The book "Planet of the Apes Revisited" offers no support for its statement. SonOfThornhill (talk) 18:10, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Well, I'm no expert in French, but I ran this by a French speaker and checked a French-English dictionary, which confirmed "singes" does mean both monkeys and apes. The word seem to be used in various topics where monkeys are intended: La Vallée des Singes, Pic des Singes, Le Château des singes, etc. "Des" just means "of". But either way, one translation being ostensibly more correct doesn't necessarily mean it was first. I've now found several sources suggesting "Monkey Planet" was the first title used by the English translators.[1][2][3] I haven't seen one saying it was the other way. The British publisher seems to have handled the translation, which both British and American editions used. It's possible that the American version just got to print first.--Cúchullain ^t/c 22:16, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Since which was first is in dispute maybe the wording should be adjusted. Instead of "His novel was translated by Xan Fielding into English, and released in Great Britain as Monkey Planet; later retitled Planet of the Apes for its American release", how about "His novel was translated by Xan Fielding into English, and released in Great Britain as Monkey Planet and in America as Planet of the Apes" Keep the wording more neutral. SonOfThornhill (talk) 11:37, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

That should work. I'll add a bit to the novel article as well.--Cúchullain ^t/c 12:06, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Great! SonOfThornhill (talk) 23:44, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Awesome. I changed it to a slight variant of what you wrote. I'll add a bit more to the novel article shortly (with sources of course).--Cúchullain ^t/c 00:15, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Good improvement. An additional benefit of this is the text no longer reads

Xan Fielding translated it into English as "Monkey Planet" for publication in the UK.

It's unlikely the Monkey Planet title was Fielding's decision. For that reason (and because it was apparently published in the US first) I was going to bring this up myself. Glad you pursued it, SonOfThornhill. - Gothicfilm (talk) 14:44, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks! SonOfThornhill (talk) 01:02, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

References to use

Please add to the list references that can be used for the film article.

• Von Busack, Richard (2004). "Signifying Monkeys: Politics and Story-Telling in The Planet of the Apes Series". In Rickman, Gregg (ed.). The Science Fiction Film Reader. Limelight Editions. pp. 165–177. ISBN 0879109947.

This comment is several years old, but I've requested a copy of this article at my library.--Cúchullain ^t/c 21:57, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

New sources

The recent book Planet of the Apes and Philosophy (edited by John Huss, Open Court Publishing, 2013) has some interesting material on the series from a philosophical perspective. Many of the articles in it are devoted to very specific elements and may not be all that useful for a broad overview like this, but it may be useful in articles on the individual films. Additionally, the introduction has some good information on the major themes dealt with in the series. Greene covers this as well; perhaps we could add another section on this.
There's one more serious book-length treatment I've found: Brian Pendreigh's The Legend of the Planet of the Apes(MacMillan, 2013). Pendreigh is a film journalist working for several prominent Scottish papers. However, it appears the book was only ever published in the UK, and copies are hard to find where I'm at. Perhaps a British editor could check it out and see if it has anything that could be added. Otherwise, everything I've read backs up Richard von Busack's take in "Signifying Monkeys" that the top sources are the ones we prominently cite here: Green and Russo & Landsman. The article's probably close to ready for a GA push.--Cúchullain ^t/c 03:41, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

There's also Planet of the Apes: The Evolution of the Legend by journalists Joe Fordham and Jeff Bond (Titan, 2014). It's a popular, coffee table type book, and it doesn't compare to Greene, but it seems to have been well received. It apparently also covers the new trilogy, which will allow us to replace the news article cites with something a bit more authoritative and up-to-date. I'll try to locate a copy before making the GA push.--Cúchullain ^t/c 22:45, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Finally got a copy of Planet of the Apes: The Evolution of the Legend. Over the next few days I'll update the reboot sections and others where it would be useful.--Cúchullain ^t/c 16:26, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Pre-GA push

I'm making some final edits before the final GA push. Fordham and Bond's Planet of the Apes: The Evolution of the Legend and Oliver Lindner's recent "The Remade Prequel: Rise of the Planet of the Apes" have been useful for the reboot series, but I doubt anything more substantive will be around for Dawn for a while yet. I also want to clean up the legacy section a bit, it's quite long. If anyone has any further editing or sourcing suggestions, please let me know.--Cúchullain ^t/c 20:15, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

War for the Planet of the Apes

Now that there's an article for War for the Planet of the Apes, it may be time to revamp the subsection here.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:38, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Rise, Dawn and War for the Planet of the Apes are in the same continuity as the Original Films

They are prequels, so technically they are part of the Original Film Series shouldn't the article reflect that?

There is no proof of that and the screenwriter asked point blank if Dawn was a prequel or a reboot answered that it was a reboot. SonOfThornhill (talk) 04:09, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Theme section

This line put in the new Theme section by Cúchullain needs to be addressed:

The producers reportedly did not intend the first film's racial undertones and were unaware of them until Sammy Davis Jr. pointed them out in 1968.

There is no way the filmmakers were "unaware" of this, from the first draft on. Rod Serling used the race issue in several of his works. It was familiar territory for him. Just because they didn't announce it in the 1968 press or that Davis pointed it out does not mean the filmmakers did not intend it. The claim should be removed, or at most be made clear that it is only a claim and clearly give the source of that claim. But I don't think this is even worth putting in the article, as it is a minority viewpoint, and thus WP:FRINGE. Of course race is the main theme of all the films, from the very beginning. - Gothicfilm (talk) 00:01, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

It's what the source says on the cited page and in several other places. I can provide direct quotes if need be. I included it because Greene makes quite a bit of the fact.--Cúchullain ^t/c 00:49, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

He is one source, giving a minority viewpoint, and thus WP:FRINGE, which says To maintain a neutral point of view, an idea that is not broadly supported by scholarship in its field must not be given undue weight. The idea that the filmmakers were unaware of this is flatly ridiculous, as it had been the subject of numerous major films before 1968. Serling himself previously dealt with it. Putting this in looks like an assault on the filmmakers' intelligence, after they are no longer around to defend themselves. It is disrespectful and unencyclopedic, giving the appearance of something being put in to grab attention where it is unwarranted. - Gothicfilm (talk) 01:05, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Ha, you must not be familiar with it if you think Greene is a "minority viewpoint" on Planet of the Apes. The book is the single best source for this series and is very widely cited by subsequent writers on the topic. I included the Sammy Davis Jr. story because Greene discusses it various times to illustrate one of his points, that "while at times this thematic concern [race] was the result of deliberate choices made by the filmmakers, at other times the concerns and issues of the era may have been subconsciously incorporated into the films" (p. 2). He first discusses the story on p. 2-3. Greene attributes it to Mort Abrahams's own telling and the same story (with direct quotes) appears in Planet of the Apes Revisited (89). Certainly Abrahams is not guilty of an assault on his own intelligence! The gist of the story in both sources is that when Davis told them Planet was "the best film about black-white relations he'd ever seen", "Neither Abrahams nor [Arthur P.] Jacobs knew what he was talking about." Neither the sources nor the wording here treat this a slight on the producers, only that the films had content that wasn't obvious to them, but which audiences, especially black audiences, picked up on.

Greene returns to this story on p. 16, 19-20, 169, and 187. It's further important because it supports another of his points, that in the later films, the filmmakers fully acknowledged the racial subtext and made it the driving concern of the last several pictures, all but replacing the Cold War theme (p. 19-20, 71-73 and elsewhere). This seems a significant point in the way the later movies were developed.

Greene is hardly the only source that discusses this point. In addition to Planet of the Apes Revisited, there's also Jason Davis' paper "Aping Race, Racing Apes", not yet cited here but available in Planet of the Apes and Philosophy[4] Others are easily found.[5][6][7] I can work some of these cites in.--Cúchullain ^t/c 03:48, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Here's the full quote by Abrahams: "I didn't know what the hell he was talking about. He assumed that we were conscious of this as an allegorical treatment of the relationship between blacks and whites. It never occurred to any of us that there was any of this level. But he read into it. It was an amazing thing to hear. He gave us great marks for this statement about the relationship of the races. At first I was quite taken off guard, because it was so alien to anything I've ever thought of that I didn't have an immediate reaction. Then, later, I started thinking about the picture in those terms and I thought that — unconsciously — I suppose we made the statement. But it was totally on a subconscious level." Planet of the Apes Revisited, p. 89.--Cúchullain ^t/c 03:56, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Based on the sources, I'm OK with the statement remaining. SonOfThornhill (talk) 11:43, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

So it was just two people - the associate producer and the producer ("Neither Abrahams nor [Arthur P.] Jacobs knew what he was talking about"). It was not referring to the writers or the director, who certainly would have been aware of the theme and fully intended it. This reminds me of writer-director John Huston, who said his policy was never to discuss the themes of a script with the producer.

So why are we focusing on producers not intending a theme? Readers might assume the text as it now appears is referring to all the filmmakers, not just those two producers. It needs to be clear in the text it was only the two of them Abrahams was referring to.

Also the Cold War theme was not really replaced by the racial theme, it was less emphasized. Far from conflicting with each other, the two themes worked together. Their resonance is there in the final shot of Battle - the theme of the films could be said to be that the war that led to the world's destruction (yet to come in Beneath) was motivated and driven by the inter-species/racial strife seen in all five films. And it's in the remake and reboot series as well, which are obviously full of inter-species/racial conflict. The claim that it's somehow not prominent in those later films will strike readers familiar with them as being more than a bit dubious. But I know you'll say you have sources that make that claim so it must go in the article. - Gothicfilm (talk) 16:17, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

I've softened the wording a bit and added additional sources. It was always clear that it was talking about the producers, though Abrahams' quote specifically says that it "never occurred to any of us" (source's emphasis). As for your opinion of the Cold War themes, re-read what the text actually says, it doesn't say what you seem to think it does.--Cúchullain ^t/c 16:50, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

That's how it could be taken. I put in a small change to make the producers specific. As for Abrahams' quote that it "never occurred to any of us", see what I said about John Huston above. And there would have been no way for the writers or director to after-the-fact tell Abrahams that they had intended it all along without making him seem foolish, so it makes sense they wouldn't have told him that if he had asked after meeting Davis. - Gothicfilm (talk) 17:02, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Well, that's just your speculation, and at any rate I don't see your point. The wording always said it was the producers who didn't realize the racial message, and your edit now makes it even more clear.--Cúchullain ^t/c 17:04, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Recent changes

I've changed or reverted a number of recent changes. I removed a bit of oversectioning above the novel, tweaked a few sentences about War and the theme park ride, and most significantly I reverted a change that for the second time moved the "Cultural impact and legacy" section down below the media lists. The editor claimed that "Cultural Impact goes at the bottom, that's how it is in the article of every other franchise". Firstly, it already is at the bottom of the article content, and only above the media lists (In the peer review, it was questioned whether the media lists were necessary at all). Secondly, despite the claim there's no overwhelming consistency among similar articles such as Star Wars, Star Trek, Star Trek (film series), James Bond in film, or Superman in film, so it's not like there's some format we are bound to follow beyond any other concerns. Third, it's just not good article presentation. IMO, readers are better served if the article content is not separated out by the huge sections of possibly irrelevant media and cast lists.--Cúchullain ^t/c 16:48, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

Works for me. Thank you. SonOfThornhill (talk) 23:09, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

"Intentionally ambiguous" ???

Reviewing the article after all of the recent changes and the 3rd paragraph of the entry for 'Battle' jumped out at me. First, unlike the entries for the other films (and the two previous paragraphs of the 'Battle' entry) which recap the background of each film, production, box office, etc.; this paragraph delves into interpretation and speculation. What really jumped out was the wording that the ending was "intentionally ambiguous". That is just not true. From the POTA Wiki: "Dehn himself stated that it was to tell the audience that Caesar's efforts would ultimately fail." The source of that is Planet of the Apes Revisited by Joe Russo and Larry Landsman (Page 211). http://planetoftheapes.wikia.com/wiki/Circular_vs_Linear_Timelines#cite_note-2 So while it can be stated that the ending was ambiguous, it is factually incorrect to state that it was intentionally so. Ideally, the entire paragraph should be removed. It is not encyclopedic and out of sync with the other entries in the article. Failing that the word "intentionally" should be removed because it is factually incorrect. SonOfThornhill (talk) 23:25, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

I think it should stay; it's well cited and Green spends several pages talking about the ending and appears to think it, its ambiguity, and its implications for the whole series are significant. The para also seems like a fair representation of the two main interpretations according to Green. I don't have the books with me now but I don't think that article is an accurate representation of Landsman and Russo. For one thing, Dehn wasn't the primary writer for this movie, and as this article states, the Corringtons did intend the ending to be ambiguous (and more hopeful than Dehn's version). However, we can take out "intentionally" if you wish; clearly, regardless of what any of the creators intended, the ending *is* ambiguous.--Cúchullain ^t/c 01:13, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm not saying the passage in not cited or inaccurate (other than the word 'intentionally'), it just seems out of sync with the other entries. As far as the Russo and Landsman book, I remember seeing a site that had scans from the book that included the page cited. If I can find it, I'll post a link. Plus, Dehn did the final rewrite of the film after the Corrington's were fired from the project so he had the final say on the issue. But you have a point that the ending regardless of intent is ambiguous. SonOfThornhill (talk) 10:43, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

Saw that you deleted the word 'intentionally', thanks. Still looking for the site with the scans of the Russo/Landsman book. When I find it, I'll post the link. SonOfThornhill (talk) 10:27, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

I have both books at home so I can check them too when I return next week.--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:59, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

Great. I can't seem to track down the site that has the scans so far, but will keep looking SonOfThornhill (talk) 13:26, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

After many days of searching was able to find a link on a message board with the Dehn quote. http://potamediaarchive.com/images/dehn5.jpg I still think the entire paragraph should be deleted. It delves into interpretation which is out of sync with the entries for the other films. But if it is retained, the Dehn quote should be included to give the reader the most and best information possible. SonOfThornhill (talk) 13:22, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

I don't see the benefit of either removing the material, or adding Dehn's quote. I reread that section of the book, and again, Dehn wasn't the primary writer for the film and in fact wasn't the one who created the ambiguous ending (he just revised the Corrington's ending, and in spite of himself and the producers' wishes, just made it more ambiguous). The current text already gives what the best available source describes as the two chief interpretations, including the one Dehn apparently preferred. Many of the other sections include thematic material when it's relevant to the series as a whole (notably, the first movie's twist nuclear war ending, and the foregrounding of racial themes in the later films). Greene is the major source for this series and he believes that this ending is significant to the series.--Cúchullain ^t/c 19:45, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Dehn did the final rewrite on the screenplay. As the page I linked to stated further up, Dehn rewrote 95% of the film's dialogue and it is clear that the ending was Dehn's concept. Greene was not involved in the making of the film's at all. It is just his opinion. We shouldn't be indulging in opinion but in facts. Dehn is a much better source that Greene in that he was actually there. But I say again, I see no benefit of including the paragraph to begin with. It is completely out of sync with the other entries in the article and engaged in interpretation instead of facts. But if it is being retained Dehn's quote should be included with Greene's interpretation. Something like "Despite screenwriter's Paul Dehn's assertion that 'Caesar's good intentions failed-and the tear is a forecast of Earth's destruction in Beneath', others adhere to another interpretation, the statue cries tears of joy because the species have broken the cycle of oppression, giving the series an optimistic finale". I know that is not perfect but I'm sure we can come up with something better. SonOfThornhill (talk) 23:26, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Being a WP:SECONDARYSOURCE (the best available one), Greene is indeed the better source in this regard than Dehn, who is a WP:PRIMARYSOURCE. It is also not Greene's interpretation; he's reporting that these are the main two interpretations of the scene, either of which have implications for the series as a whole. His own position seems to be that it's open to interpretation, which regardless of anyone's intentions, it obviously is. Other interpretations are possible, but these are the two that are the most noteworthy according to Greene.

Normally I wouldn't oppose adding a note about Dehn's statements, but I just don't see why we should single him out as an authority for this. He was just one of several parties who had input at different stages. According to both Greene and Landsman & Russo, it was the Corringtons, not Dehn, who created the ending with the Lawgiver and the children. They intended the ending to be ambiguous but hopeful: "the time loop could be used either to suggest an unending cycle of predetermined violence or, as the Corringtons preferred, to give the characters an opportunity to break that cycle through deliberate present-day action" The Corringtons reworked the ending at least once based on feedback from Arthur Jacobs. Dehn's rewrite added the crying statue; apparently he wanted this to indicate that the destructive future was unavoidable, but that's hardly clear in the film, as noted by the sources. If anything, it's even more ambiguous than the rest of the scene. Dehn stated that he also reworked 95% of the dialog, but he altered very little of the plot, and the WGA decided his changes weren't sufficient to give him a screenplay credit, which went to the Corringtons. According to Landsman and Russo, the other filmmakers, including Jacobs, disliked the ending but neither Dehn nor anyone else came up with a better one in time. Then there's the director. According to Greene, who spoke to him, "The scene was intended by Director J. Lee Thompson to be ambiguous". Regardless of what Dehn (or the Corringtons) intended, the director shot it to be ambiguous. So we have a situation where there are multiple rounds of filmmakers who intended different things.

I don't see why we need to get into what the filmmakers (or one of them) intended; what's more important is the end result, and what the sources say about them. IMO, the present text that's been here for three years does that.--Cúchullain ^t/c 16:51, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

Once again, I'll state that the whole paragraph should be deleted. It veers into interpretation and not facts. Encyclopedias should be about facts, not interpretations. Plus it is odd to give a WP:SECONDARYSOURCE more weight than a WP:PRIMARYSOURCE. As far as the WGA, since we don't have a transcript of their deliberations on the subject, we can't comment on why they made the decision that they did. And without a direct quote from Thompson, whatever Greene says in regard to that is simply hearsay. I'm not saying to delete the Greene reference but it is only fair to include the Dehn quote to give readers as many facts as possible. SonOfThornhill (talk) 23:11, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

:WP:SECONDARYSOURCEs do receive more weight than WP:PRIMARYSOURCES per Wikipedia policy, as primary sources can be easily misused. Here, Greene is the top source for the article subject. There is no problem including interpretation when it's cited to reliable sources that establish it as noteworthy to the topic. In this case, Greene spends many pages talking about the implications of this ending for the film and series, so it's clear he thinks it's noteworthy. And we do not need a direct quote from Thompson to establish his intentions when it's verified by a reliable source (Greene, who talked to him for the book). Again, there's nothing necessarily wrong with including a note about Dehn, but I don't see how we include him but not the Corringtons, Thompson, and potentially Jacobs (not that I'm arguing that we should). Either way, it appears this discussion is not going to resolve the disagreement.--Cúchullain ^t/c 16:02, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

True, WP:PRIMARYSOURCES can be misused but so can a WP:SECONDARYSOURCE, but that is not the case here. Greene is one source. There are many others regarding the Apes films. The Russo/Landsman book is a great source. Plus the purpose of Greene's book is interpretation while the Russo/Landsman book is more a behind the scenes history without any editorializing. What's odd is that there the ending is only barely mentioned in the main article for the film. Maybe the solution is expand the article in the main article to include the Dehn quote and others. SonOfThornhill (talk) 10:29, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

Yes, it would be a great idea to expand the Battle article as you suggest. Unfortunately many of these articles are in pretty weak shape.--Cúchullain ^t/c 19:01, 7 August 2017 (UTC)