Talk:Peirol

A fact from Peirol appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 23 October 2007. The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that though many troubadours wrote about the Crusades and either encouraged or mocked them as politics dictated, the jongleur Peirol was one of the few to actually travel to the Holy Land, on a pilgrimage to Jerusalem in 1221?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2007/October.

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Two suggestions

Usually, the MoS is to give song or poem titles in double quotes rather than italics (for instance "Le Léthé" is a poem in Les Fleurs du mal), so that should apply here too. Or was there a special MoS for this case?

A pronunciation key would be good. (At least an approximate one, plus an IPA if possible). I say it "pay-rol" (or "pé-rol" if you prefer) but I've no idea how it was originally supposed to be pronounced in his lifetime, which could be a secondary pronunciation key. And some readers may read the whole article thinking "pea-rol" (as for "neither"). Something such as, tentatively:

Peirol (approximatively "pay-rol", IPA: [peʁɔl], birth estimated around ...)

— Komusou ^talk @ 11:20, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have no idea how it's pronounced and have never seen a pronunciation key, so it seems irrelevant. Let hem pronounce it "pea-rol" if they like! As to the format of italicising, I do so because these works are independent, but feel free to change that if you like. Srnec 11:37, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

At least the modern pronunciation I heard was "pé-rol" (English approximate "pay-rol").
For the general Wikipedia:Manual of Style (titles), it's double quotes for any short piece whether part of a whole or not. For instance Poe's "The raven" was a separate piece published in a magazine, etc. Since there doesn't seem to be a special case here, I'll update to quotes.
One more question: What is the order of the poem list based upon? I realize it's the list from the website, but where did they get it from? Is it the standard order given by scholarly books based on some arcane datation, or is it just the site's random order from the database? If random, alphabetical order would be better; and at any rate, the reader should be told explicitely which sort order we use. — Komusou ^talk @ 12:00, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You changed 32 to 34, but I notice two poems entitled "Peirol, ..." Are these Peirol's works or the other side of the two tensos? Srnec 12:15, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As I understand them (a very relative term, I don't read Occitan), each of them is a complete tenso already. "Peirol, com avetz tan estat" is probably the dialogue between Peirol and Bernart de Ventadorn. As for the short "Peirol, pois vengutz es vas nos", it looks like an allegory (Love? Love of Homeland?) is adressing Peirol in the first stanza, and Peirol answers in the second, a one-two dialogue (a subgenre of tenso called a cobla, as opposed to the longer and more dialectical partimen subgenre). But then, I changed 34 to 32 purely based on the list that was 34. There may be some good reason behind "32". — Komusou ^talk @ 12:51, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. Still, you're onto something, because I just notice how the last 8 poems of the site's list are actually all tensos, so there IS some sort of underlying order or classification, after all. I'm going to split the list between cansos and tensos accordingly. — Komusou ^talk @ 13:47, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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