Talk:Oyster sauce

Language

I think it is common practice to write the name of the language before the translations at the beginning; I can only guess that the first is Chinese and the second is Japanese? (clem 16:03, 10 May 2005 (UTC))

First is simplified Chinese, the second is traditional. Oyster sauce is not much used in Japan. Jpatokal 17:14, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

I think the translations could be extended like in the article on Jet Li. (clem 20:31, 14 May 2005 (UTC))

Literal meaning

Box needs literal meaning. Badagnani 20:00, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Why "oil"

Why does the name have 油 (oil) in it (instead of 酱 or some other term) if there's no oil in this sauce? Is it because it's used in place of oil, in a similar manner? Badagnani (talk) 04:09, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

No idea. Benjwong (talk) 04:48, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I read somewhere that if it's squeezed out of a mass it's called "oil" and when its blended it's called "sauce". But in the case of oyster sauce I have no clue. Sjschen (talk) 15:21, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually the more I think about it the 油 is anything squeezed/pressed idea makes more sense. 酱 is used in the past to describe fermented or blended bean pastes that typically made from soy. To get soy sauce, one first has to first make the bean paste and then you extract the liquid out of the sauce by pressing the paste. Thus 酱 (paste) 油 (liquid squeezed out of something) = 酱油 (liquid squeezed out of paste). Oyster sauce thus can also be a 油, since juice is first squeezed out (油) of oysters(蚝) prior to further processing, and this is called 蚝油. Sjschen (talk) 01:13, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually oyster sauce should mean 蚝汁, and 蚝油 should be better translated into oyster oil. 汁 as in juice/liquid/sauce could mean lesser in content whereas 油 is more refined, concentrated, often less for more. A simple example is truffle oil vs truffle sauce. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.40.137.197 (talk) 03:14, 27 August 2011 (UTC) Oyster sauce is just one of many condiments to enhance favor; however its caramelized sugar/cornstarch/emulsifier content can easily brown roasted a hot wok. Add water with a few slices of ginger or ginger beer, whichever comes handy, to soften the favor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.40.137.197 (talk) 03:17, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Etymology

Did this word originate in the Cantonese language? Badagnani (talk) 04:11, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

which word? Jeannebluemonheo (talk) 04:07, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Non-Asian oyster sauces

This article is about "a viscous dark brown sauce commonly used in Chinese, Thai and Khmer cuisine". Any alternative oyster sauces like 's butter concoction belong in a separate section (if at all?), not mixed in.

And oh, I call bullshit on your Times reference, especially since the meaning of the supposed article is "Lying"... Jpatokal (talk) 02:58, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

The article is about "oyster sauce" Mrs Beeton predates Lee Kam Sheung. Whadya mean Bullshit? Do you mean they lied by coming up with a term 60 odd years before its supposed invention? CyrilThePig4 (talk) 05:55, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Let's see a scan of this Times article of yours. Jpatokal (talk) 13:01, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

You are free to check the references any way you wish. And I am happy to help however I can althought I am not sure how this can be achieved. Mendicity 17 Aug 1815CyrilThePig4 (talk) 13:08, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by CyrilThePig4 (talk • contribs) 13:41, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Beautiful! However, I still don't understand why you insist on pretending that Chinese oyster sauce is in any way connected to the British recipe? Jpatokal (talk) 02:07, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

The pretence is that Mr LKK invented Oyster sauce - he didn't. I suspect the bottled version that is now sold is a long way off his "1888 invention" and in any case the version you keep reverting to is both unreferenced and disagrees with the Lkk article. CyrilThePig4 (talk) 08:53, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

The so called invention was rather hilarious. A tale about leftover oyster broth boil down into a condensed malt. Whether then a market for condensed leftover broth remains a myth, not to mention the high cost of sourcing enough oyster, preparing and extracting the slick substance, package and warehousing, and commercialize it must be mission impossible consider no modern preservative existed other than salt. And salt was and still is a controlled food source in China! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.40.137.197 (talk) 03:22, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

I think you are reinserting Trade Puff (and possibly unreferenced puff at that - where are your references - all we have is a dead link. CyrilThePig4 (talk) 09:11, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't really give a rat's ass who invented the Chinese sauce. The problem I have with your version is that it implies that the English stuff from 1815 has any connection at all to modern/Chinese oyster sauce, which is patently false, since the two have nothing in common (except oysters). Jpatokal (talk) 11:19, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Ironically the one thing, I believe is missing from the modern condiment is oysters. CyrilThePig4 (talk) 11:49, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

PS I now note that you have accepted "development" as opposed to "invention" re LKK - Is is because you are now more informed?. And if it is the case that you are now more informed, would it not be fair to inform the reader and let them form their own conclusions. CyrilThePig4 (talk) 12:01, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Have you actually read Mrs. Beeton's recipe? (That's a yes or no question.) It has nothing to do with the Chinese sauce. First, she instructs the reader to cook the oysters until they just reach the boiling point, then "take them off the fire immediately". (In other words, they're not reduced.) Second step, add half a pint (!) of melted butter with milk (sauce blanche) and heat the pot by the side of the fire, "but do not allow to boil" (= still not reduced).

In other words, Beeton's sauce, and the English "oyster sauce", is an oyster-flavored sauce blanche (Beeton's recipe 378/380, referred to from 492.). Zero thickening, zero caramelization, and not even close to a "viscous, brown sauce". Jpatokal (talk) 13:09, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Have you actually read the version you keep reverting to - its barely more than an advert for a commercial product which has stolen the name of a traditional cooking sauce. CyrilThePig4 (talk) 13:15, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Where are you referencers that the chinese version they are reduced. CyrilThePig4 (talk) 13:19, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

I have checked my bottle of Wing Yip Oyster Sauce. It contains 1.3% Oyster essence. What the Oyster content of the Oyster essence is god only knows - It could even be 0% CyrilThePig4 (talk) 14:26, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

LKK has changed their website, their old story is still available on archive.org at [1].

Let's get one thing straight here: when people say "oyster sauce" in 2010, they always mean the Chinese variety. Do you agree? If you search for the term on Google, what do the hits refer to?

Also, why do you keep deleting my well-referenced clarification that the English recipe is a sauce blanche and not a reduction? Jpatokal (talk) 02:03, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I keep deleting it because you keep amending other referenced information when adding it. CyrilThePig4 (talk) 17:44, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I ran across a mention of this edit war under Wikiproject China while looking for an answer to a question. I just tried my notion of how to reorganize the article, in the hope they'll have more time to answer my question ;) - namely, to make "Varieties" the main section of the article. Is this any help? Please, folks... take the time to organize content better rather than just reverting anything you think is in the wrong place. Wnt (talk) 22:44, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Good job! I still think the English sauce is unduly prominent, but let's wait and see what the Pig thinks about this. Jpatokal (talk) 04:23, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

The references show that Steak & Oyster sauce was a common English recipe. This is the information that I became aware and which I believe the reader should also be aware of. This information was retained by Wnt although I do feel Jpatokal is trying to "shuffle" it out of existence. CyrilThePig4 (talk) 06:36, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Huh? This is an article about oyster sauce, and Beeton's recipe #492 on page 224 (which, you'll note, the reference points to) is about oyster sauce alone. The fact that there exists a dish called steak & oyster sauce isn't really any more informative than the fact that there exists a dish called kailan in oyster sauce — and, incidentally, your Times article says nothing about it being a "common" recipe. (If anything, you could deduce from the context that it's a luxury item.) Jpatokal (talk) 10:04, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

I have added a further reference indicating that the Oyster Sauce was commonnly used (There are two dozen more!). Regard whether it was a luxury or not, some references even include the menu prices - these can be added to let the reader decide. CyrilThePig4 (talk) 10:38, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

PS I have now inserted fourteen references to support my edits; Jpatokal, How many WP:RS support your position? CyrilThePig4 (talk) 10:41, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Uhh... my position is that, on an article about a sauce, perhaps you should describe the sauce before mentioning the recipes it's used in? Why exactly do you object to this? Jpatokal (talk) 15:51, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Oyster sauce describes a number of sauces made by cooking oysters - The first sentence is a description. CyrilThePig4 (talk) 18:10, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

I think that there are some problematic points that could still use fixing. The English section is currently confusing, because it starts first by talking about one dish (steak and oyster sauce), then there's mention of a brown sauce different from a white sauce, and then finally the base of all the sauces is defined. This seems backwards to me. More to the point, the reader would like to hear whether the oyster sauce was a "true" sauce in the sense that you could get some and put it on more than one thing, or whether there is really only one dish "Steak and Oyster sauce" and that's the only place it occurs.

I think that the English section should still come first, because it maintains a rough chronological order; also that way we can get it out of the way and be done with it. Now I have a funny suspicion that the Shennong Bencao Jing as like as not described how to make oyster sauce and use it as a remedy for snake-bites and hangovers, but until someone here comes up with a pre-1800s reference for Chinese oyster sauce the order should stand. (Please do... there are much more fun things to do on Wikipedia than edit wars!) I just added a set of reversed Wikilinks from articles that link to this one, to give readers a sense of the scope of use, but if someone applies themselves to this section this could be done in a less skeletal fashion.

I'd also like to see more research about whether there is a broader range of modern oyster sauce than is described. Would a high-class Hong Kong restaurant really serve you something that is only a few percent oyster? Meanwhile, someone mentioned reading the label for the oyster content. In my opinion, product labels on consumer goods are WP:reliable sources, since many people check them before they are printed, and they can be used as a source to make the article more specific. Wnt (talk) 21:00, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Regards the confusion, it would be fantastic if we could piece together the "definitive story", although, if we cant, we should still leave in the "bits" to allow some future editor to fill in the gaps.

I think part of confusion /positions held is the distiction between a "one off" Oyster "White Sauce" and a "condiment" Oyster Sauce. I think there is evidence that both were common in western cuisine throughout the 19thC - Oyster Ketchup Recipes. CyrilThePig4 (talk) 09:44, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

The oyster ketchup (not sauce) recipes here resemble each other quite a bit, and two of four note that they go well with white sauce --> and then we have Mrs Beeton's oyster sauce again.

Also, the current version states that there is a sauce called "steak and oyster sauce", which as far as I can see is not the case: there's just one oyster sauce which gets slathered on various things like steak or cod. Jpatokal (talk) 14:49, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

It's questionable whether or not the English oyster sauce by itself is notable enough to deserve its own article, so I think it could be mentioned in this article. However, the name "oyster sauce" most commonly refers to the Chinese variety, so let's not bump the English version to the top of the article. It should be at the bottom. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 14:44, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

HongQiGong, you edit is grammatically incorrect. Regards the factual content, I am questioning why you have decided to amend it from "Western" to "English" oyster sauce. The existing references adequately supported the consumption of oyster sauce "in the West" in the early 19thC. Further references can be added to support this. France ref Louis Eustache Ude p 293 The French cook, Publisher Carey, Lea & Carey, 1829 ref; America Ref p26 The American housewife, Dayton and Saxton, 1841 ref CyrilThePig4 (talk) 16:41, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

The French reference above also describes an oyster-flavored sauce blanche. Jpatokal (talk) 03:00, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Unreferenced text

Removed the following unreferenced text:

However, there are others claiming to have an earlier start; for instance, Macau's 榮生 of 1868 is just one example that still exists today. Many insiders believe that oyster sauce may well have existed for over a thousand years.

--Gak (talk) 08:56, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

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Potential bias in Sources

Can anyone find a citation for the story of oyster sauce's invention that appeared before the company donated a bunch of money to Harvard? Because, though I added citations to news stories from around that time, I can't find anything earlier. There's also this guy's completely uncorroborated but nonetheless compelling story which makes my theory a bit more plausible. Halp. Expert needed. Yogibeera (talk) 02:17, 17 July 2018 (UTC)