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protectorate

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Semi protected due to continuous vandalism. EdwinHJ | Talk 20:51, 9 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Unreferenced information

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I am removing all unreferenced information from this article. If you would like to restore it, providea a source to cite. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 23:16, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) That's a lot of info to delete. I don't want to have to do this, so please find sources, or I will have to remove it. Sports results should be a in a newspaper somewhere. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 23:37, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Who's going to delete most of the entries in List of notable University of Pittsburgh people? You've deleted two of them. As far as I can tell, only a small handful have sources. What about the rest? Seriously, you could apply the same level of rigor and delete half the content of most of our technical articles. You could put a {{fact}} tag after nearly every paragraph in Light bulb or Kinetic energy and delete more than half of those articles if no one took the time to find a source (and while it's not that difficult, it is rather time-consuming). OhNoitsJamie Talk 23:43, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As I said before, I deleted all four listings that neither had an article nor a citation. Again: Stop using poor logic to defend this mess of an article. If you feel those articles need work, go do it. But their problems don't justify this article's, and this is the article we are discussing, not those. Again: Help us find citations, or we will be deleting what we can't find. And if you continue to push this, I will file a request for comment, and the Wikipedia community will delete the information. I came here as an administrator, but now I am stuck debating you, so I will have to find other editors to deliver a consensus. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 00:05, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Cite tags

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I realize that it's good form to have citations, but some of these things, while common knowledge to attendees or local residents, will probably not have references available on the web. You can easily see in Lou Christie's biography at imdb that he's from Glenwilliard, PA, which is in the Moon Area School district. I personally knew a few of the people mentioned on this list.

I agree with Write on 1983 that sports information need not be cited (unless it's something POVish like "they are the best team in the state." Look around any sports article on Wikipedia; you won't see references for every single score or statistic.

It's also easy to watch The Fish That Saved Pittsburgh and recognize the gym. {{fact}} tags are necessary for any informational that is potentially controversial or subject to dispute, but I don't see why something as innocuous as alumni or film locations needs to be sourced. If you apply that level of strictness to citations, you'll end up deleting half of the content of Wikipedia.

For example, should three fourths of the List of notable University of Pittsburgh people article be deleted because the entries are not sourced? OhNoitsJamie Talk 23:18, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I maintain List of notable University of Pittsburgh people, and I just removed all of the uncited people on the list. All four of them. We are questioning the validity of these claims, so they need to be sourced. Please read the policies/guidelines I keep linking to. Sports stuff has to be cited. I don't know who you are, so I have no reason to believe a claim you make in an article. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 23:49, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Where is the source for Keith Haring? The article about him? His alma mater isn't sourced there either. Or Justin Sane? His Wikipedia article mentions Pitt, but that information is not sourced either. I'm well aware of the policies you are referring to; my point is that there is a point where such a rigorous application flys in the face of common sense. OhNoitsJamie Talk 23:57, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Please don't use the "that article is bad, so this one should be too" argument with me. Just because those articles are lacking, does not justify the mess this one is. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 00:00, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The point is that none of those articles have sourced the information about the University of Pittsburgh, which means that the alumni article is not properly sourced. I'm not saying that "Common knowledge" is an acceptable source, I'm just seeking common sense. OhNoitsJamie Talk 00:09, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Common sense is based on common knowledge. There is no common sense on Wikipedia. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 00:17, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see how that essay applies here; the common sense that I'm talking about is citing where information is likely to be questioned or dipusted versus citing every single paragraph or sentence. OhNoitsJamie Talk 00:28, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That's all well and good, but I'm questioning it. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 00:44, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you

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Thank you Ohnoitsjamie. Athletic information does not need to be cited as it is factual information that anyone could receive on their own. There are no citations needed for athletics.

As for graduates of the school, again, no citations are needed since it is not a controversial topic. Local residents, school officials, etc., can easily find out if any of these celebrities graduated from the school. There is no controversy that they did not.

And as for the film, it is obvious that if a local resident watched the film people will easily recognize the gymnasium in use.

Please understand that I'd never publish untrue or non-cited information. Some information is just that - common knowledge.

--Write On 1983 23:28, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am questioning this information, and so now someone needs to provide a source for it. I am very serious about deleting this information. I can gaze into the crystal ball and tell you what will happen if you continue to argue and not look for reliable sources: We will revert each other a few times, and then one of us will seek outside comment, and then the community will agree with Paschmitts and me, and the questionable information will be gone. I know Paschmitts will look for sources because that's what he does, and he does it well. Take a look at other school articles he has worked on, like Schenley High School. ALL of the almuni are cited. And you know what? I'll see what I can find? But I'm pretty busy applying for journalism grad schools.
Again, local readers might already know this stuff, but Wikipedia is not written solely for people who live near Pittsburgh's airport. If some dude from India reads this article, he needs to be able to see that these claims are true. I live in Pittsburgh, and I don't know they're true. As for your common knowledge biz, please read Wikipedia:Common knowledge. There is no such thing as common knowledge on Wikipedia; that's because we don't necessarily have anything in common, being from around the world. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 23:59, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]


With all due respect, none of the information on the page falls under any of the categories on Wikipedia's Common Knowledge page consisting of the following categories: controversial claims, untested facts or arguments, technical knowledge or indirect knowledge.
Sports information does not fall under any of those categories. For instance, surfing the Pittsburgh Steelers page, I find no cited information regarding the championships they've won. It does not mean the information is inaccurate, but it is information that is readily available.
Therefore, I stand by my claim that athletic information, specifically does not need to be cited.
As for the attempt to cite alumni, it is preposterous to assume that for every known celebrity/personality that their high school and childhood information can be found online. Besides, whose to say what, if any, information found on any other Web site is accurate.--Write On 1983 02:59, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I did the references for Schenley High School and Taylor Allderdice High School. Go look at the history for that last one: prior to my edit on 27 Nov 2006, Jeff Goldblum was listed as a notable alumni. "Everyone knows" he went there; it was even in the IMDB. Except he didn't, he went to West Mifflin North High School.
As to what websites are accurate, use that "common sense;" newspaper or other media web sites, official organizations like the NFL for football players, celebrities' web sites are probably OK. I skip fan sites, IMDB, MySpace pages, or sites which obviously get their content from Wikipedia.
It's really not that hard; I find it kind of fun to track down these sort of references. In fact, I've sometimes found alumni who are not mentioned on the page because they're mentioned in the same article as someone who is listed.
Oh, and use the citation templates, they make your references neater. – Paschmitts 04:27, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That's all well and good for the alumni, but athletic information does not need to be cited. And I am standing by that claim. Not all athletic information is recorded online, and much of what I plan to add comes from the high school's banners and trophys - things that aren't online. --Write On 1983 05:13, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm glad you enjoy tracking down references; verifiability is one of the cornerstones of the Wikipedia project. However, I also believe that there is a point where demanding references goes beyond good judgment. Throw a rock at any non-stub article in Wikipedia; it's easy to find numerous unsourced paragraphs. Does that mean we should delete all that content? Of course not. Wikipedia's verifiability policy states:
Editors should provide a reliable source for material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or it may be removed.
What is controversial about this content that it should be challenged? Paschmitts brings up a valid point that "common knowledge" is not always correct. So once again; why is it acceptable to demand that this article cite all of its sources for notable alumni, while List of notable University of Pittsburgh people remains largely unreferenced? OhNoitsJamie Talk 05:42, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This is not the talk page for that article, and we do not need to ask "why should this be asked of this article?" because I am asking it. I don't trust this information and I have no reason to believe it. Thanks for the good citations you have found already. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 10:43, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What about the information do you not trust? --Write On 1983 22:05, 18 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't trust it because it's not cited, and if it were important/true, it could be. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 03:15, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

film trivia

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While the movie trivia about MAHS is unique, it doesn't belong at the top since this film is not the school's claim-to-fame. It is, simply, nothing but odd trivia.--Write On 1983 03:19, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Really? Because according to this, it was in a major motion picture, which means that many people apparently have seen it in that context. Besides, trivia sections are awful and to be avoided, and this one only had one item. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 05:17, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The section referring to the film should be included. That's your opinion that trivia sections are awful. It is quite interesting to read some odd trivia. The gym is clearly seen in the film, and I'll search the WWW for a source of it. But it is an interesting tid bit of information, so I do believe it should be included. --Write On 1983 22:00, 18 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Moon Sports

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I updated the sports info, citing everything except cross country. I also updated the intro into the sports section to discuss that Moon offers 23 sports plus cheerleading. Not all sports that Moon offers are sanctioned by the WPIAL and/or PIAA. For instance, Moon offers gymnastics but the PIAA doesn't technically sanction it, a committee of gymnastics coaches operate the state-wide league. Rather than get too technical on the article, I chose to brief it. I forgot to mention that this is a sports-worshipping training ground for the kind of thing that goes down at Penn State...academics entirely forgotten. Although I suppose you could infer that from the entry. --Write On 1983 19:39, 4 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Athletics

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This might just be my inner band kid speaking out, but this article is heavily centered on athletics. There isn't much about the school itself -- that, and the information that isn't athletics-related is for the most part uncited. ɯɐɔ 💬 13:17, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. It's a common problem with high school articles. This one certainly has excessive sports details and some non neutral language that should be trimmed. Unless there is a particularly good reason we only list the highest level of titles, so the Conference and Division titles are not needed. Even less germane are the losses and the detailed info about particular games. Outside of the school's students (and maybe even only the team members), who cares to know by what score and to whom they lost a given low-level game? Terms such as "boasting", "much success", and "even more success" should be toned down. Meters (talk) 16:32, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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