Talk:macOS Big Sur

Regarding the use of 11.0 vs 10.16

While macOS Big Sur is referred to as macOS 11.0 in the WWDC 2020 presentation, I've just obtained the Developer Beta via BetaProfiles.com, and it directly states 10.16 in the Software Update center. should we label it as 11.0 as said in the presentation, or 10.16 as stated in Software Update? JBMagination (talk) 22:04, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Well, now it is written as 11.0 on BetaProfiles.com as well so maybe they just pre-wrote this or didn't notice the version number. So don't need to change it from 11.0. Bstonawski (talk) 12:48 AM, 23 June 2020 (CET)

See here. Possibly a late decision to change version number, hedging their bets, or trying to stop leaks. Blythwood (talk) 22:52, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Ah. That explains this, thank you so much! (EDIT: As the person who uploaded said image, I request that this image on Wikimedia Commons be deleted.) JBMagination (talk) 23:03, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, probably a late decision; my money's on it having come down from marketing. (I don't work there anymore, so I don't have first-hand knowledge, but it just comes across as a case of "Look at all the stuff we're doing! It's so exciting we have to change the major version number!", with engineering saying "yeah, whatever, same basic code base, binary compatible on x86-64, the major version number is just a bunch of marketing wankery anyway, look at what happened with Solaris".)

A lot of pages on developer.apple.com speak of "macOS 11", especially in the Human Interface Guidelines, where a lot of the changes show up. The beta release notes (OK, where is that beta?) and Apple's porting-to-ARM64 guide (which only mentions Arm in the fixed-width string "arm64"; it's all "Apple silicon" otherwise) also speak of "macOS 11".

So anything from Apple that speaks of 10.16 probably didn't get a last-minute update yet. Guy Harris (talk) 01:29, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Probably shouldn't download from another website tho. Download it from Apple 70.106.212.233 (talk) 23:09, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Regarding the date of release later in 2020

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The website says MacOs Big Sur will be released “this Fall 2020”. But Wikipedia says “later in 2020”. It is inaccurate and imprecise to say later in 2020 because you include winter 2020 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.244.83.87 (talk) 14:33, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

The consensus we reached earlier was to use "Later in 2020". "Fall 2020" would be problematic as it isn't universal to both hemispheres. If you want to reopen the discussion, go ahead, but until we decide otherwise, "Later in 2020" is what we're sticking with. Herbfur (talk) 17:53, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Which hemisphere does it say October, November isn't Fall? Southern Hemisphere? I'm sure school taught me that Spring(March, April, May) Summer(June, July, August), Fall(September, October, November) Winter(December, January, February) is universal.

Provide me proof that says October, November is Spring, Summer, or Winter in the Hemisphere you mentioned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:140:7:270B:9948:A712:1E3A:AC60 (talk) 02:03, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

"Which hemisphere does it say October, November isn't Fall? Southern Hemisphere?" Yes.

"I'm sure school taught me that Spring(March, April, May) Summer(June, July, August), Fall(September, October, November) Winter(December, January, February) is universal." Your school appears to believe the earth is a hemisphere.

"Provide me proof that says October, November is Spring, Summer, or Winter in the Hemisphere you mentioned." See, for example, the University of Auckland Summer School dates for 2021, wherein summer school begins 6 January 2021 and ends 17 February 2021, and the Geoscience Australia Summer and Winter Solstice page, which notes that "The summer solstice usually occurs on 22 December, but can occur between 21 and 23 December. The winter solstice is the day of the year that has the least daylight hours of any in the year and usually occurs on 22 June but can occur between 21 and 23 June." You might want to tell your school. Guy Harris (talk) 02:41, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

The seasons are different in the Northern and Southern Hemisphere. Guy Harris gave you evidence for this, but even that isn't required because this is Common knowledge. Looks like your school was wrong here. Herbfur (talk) 03:29, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

American Samoa is in the US and the Southern Hemisphere and they use the same website as the other territories and the states. France and the UK have territories in the Southern hemisphere which use the same. After painstakingly looking, I concluded not a single southern hemisphere site say that it's coming in the spring. They all say something along the lines of "coming later this year" or "coming soon". Admittedly this did include countries that straddle the equator. Annoyingly not that many countries in Africa and Asia have apple websites. Subscribe to me (talk) 20:17, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

I think that means that our consensus position works, as it reflects what Apple has been saying. Thanks for looking into this. Herbfur (talk) 20:30, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

The Australian site and the New Zealand site say "Coming later this year", and the Brazilian site says "Ainda este ano"; none of those straddle the equator, so, yes, our consensus works. Guy Harris (talk) 20:48, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

That's incorrect, a small portion of Brazil is in the Northern Hempisphere. Subscribe to me (talk) 13:32, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Well that just further proves our consensus is the best because Apple has been using it to address differences between hemispheres the same way that we have. Herbfur (talk) 15:20, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

If we're dropping this fall 2020 because it's not universal, Then, Why are we still using the year "2020" when that's not a Universal year?

In Japan, it"s Reiwa 2 and in Armenia it's 1469 and in China, it's 4716, and in Korea, it's 4353, in India, it's 2146. No Country except the Western Civilization uses the Gregorian Calendar.

I live in India and it says later this year and it Doesn't say later this 2020, and it doesn't say this fall in Australia. That means this fall isn't universal across both North and South hemispheres and 2020 isn"t Universal in Both Western and Eastern Hemispheres. Why aren"t you changing Later in 2020 to This year? What a hypocrite.

No  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:140:5:FC74:6502:9EA5:BBE:D1F2 (talk) 23:34, 12 October 2020 (UTC) 

To begin with, do not make personal attacks. Comment on content, not editor. You could have just said that you think the standard is inconsistent without attacking other people. There are numerous people here who are acting in the interest of improving the article (WP:AGF), not just you. The year 2020 is universally recognized by the international community. The fact that you understand the year 2020 renders your point essentially moot. Even if other places use their local calendars, they still recognize and understand the Anno Domini system and the fact that it is the year 2020. Furthermore, this is the English Encyclopedia, and this page is written in American English. Therefore, we use American English conventions, which includes the Anno Domini system, not other conventions. Also, changing it to "Later this year" would violate MOS:CURRENT. The encyclopedia is supposed to be timeless, it would be inappropriate to mention a specific time as present and would cause problems if parts of the article or linked articles aren't updated. "Later this year" references a specific time as current and would become problematic the moment 2021 arrives. I stand by the consensus, that "Later in 2020" is the most consistent, correct, universal, and inclusive option until Apple announces the official release date. Herbfur (talk) 18:34, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

"Fall of 2020" is more specific than "end of 2020" as it means it'll come out on December 20th at the latest as opposed to December 31st. Subscribe to me (talk) 12:19, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter if it's more specific, it's not universal and speculating on an arrival date is against WP:CRYSTAL. We don't know if it'll come out before 21 December, while it's likely that it will, we could be wrong and Apple hasn't given a specific date. Putting a specific date creates specificity and precision on a figure where such specificity and precision do not exist. Let's stick with the old consensus. Herbfur (talk) 15:38, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

As the moderator had said, Fall 2020 in the Northern Hemisphere could also means Spring 2020 in the Southern Hemisphere specifically before June 2020, which doesn’t make sense.The Apple could have mentioned which month it will release MacOS Big Sur instead of saying we will release it later on 2020 Gregorian Calendar for the sake of Southern Hemisphere people.

As a hemisphere-neutral term we could use "Before December 21, 2020" or "Before the December Solstice" Subscribe to me (talk) 12:16, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

That's too precise. It's more precise than the info Apple gave, and it gives the illusion that they gave a deadline when they didn't; all they gave was a general ballpark of the release date. Apple doesn't always even meet their ballparks, they said the Big Sur Public Beta would be out in July, yet it came out in Early August. It's misleading to present the date as a deadline when that kind of precision doesn't exist (think like significant figures in chemistry). There's absolutely nothing not neutral about Later in 2020 and there's absolutely nothing wrong or imprecise about it. I still stand by the consensus. Herbfur (talk) 15:47, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

It actually does set a deadline since the time period mentioned does have an end (December 21st). The 11 day difference doesn't impact very much. We could use "Northern Hemisphere Fall 2020" but that doesn't flow particularly well. And given the Holiday season, it would make no sense to release so close to Christmas or just after. Also, it has to be released before or Apple Silicon can come out since all signs point away from the existence of an ARM version of Catalina. At the latest Apple Silicon and Big Sur come out on the same day. Apple, knowing people would want to give their new products for Christmas, would give people time to buy them ahead. If Apple did plan on releasing it during that short 11-day time period, it would likely either say it was later this year worldwide or have an exact day. Current rumors suggest the end of November or the first half of December, but we have no way of knowing until according to said rumors November 10. Subscribe to me (talk) 15:29, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

That's the whole point. Your proposal inappropriately sets a deadline when none has been given. You may think 11 days isn't much, but it's still an inaccuracy, and we're building an accurate encyclopedia, not a collection of speculations. A lot of your argument is based in speculation and rumors, and that's not what Wikipedia is about. As logical as you may think your ideas are, they are still speculation and not backed by reliable sources. Let's just leave it at the consensus. Herbfur (talk) 16:55, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

There’s a difference in waiting until December 20th and December 31st, you know.11 days difference — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.244.83.111 (talk) 12:57, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

SO the only month left that is part of Autumn in the Northern Hemisphere is November, Why not label the due date, November 2020? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.244.83.111 (talk) 14:10, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

We do not know that. There has been no indication from Apple that Big Sur will be out in November. Even though this seems obvious, WP:CRYSTAL requires that we do not include speculation in the article. Deducing the release date without any official information is speculation that violates WP:CRYSTAL. Also, autumn ends in December, not November... Herbfur (talk) 16:51, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

More specifically December 21st. Now that the event has been declared to happen and the one more thing tagline confirms there will not be an event in December. It would be illogical to state that it the public release happen between today and November 10. Now we can say "On or after November 10, 2020 and on or before December 21, 2020". There isn't really an easier way to say that. What would be easier is "Unknown date before December 21st, 2020". If we wanted to we could specify the time but it's pretty much universally midnight. Subscribe to me (talk) 18:34, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Again. We. Don't. Know. That. There is no evidence that Big Sur MUST be released at a special event. It could come at any time, it could literally come tomorrow if Apple wants. Apple has not officially announced a release date. Speculation does NOT belong in an encyclopedia. Leave it at the consensus. Also, I have no idea what population has to do with anything (Wikipedia is NOT a democracy) and you keep citing neutrality when there exists no neutrality issue. "Later in 2020" is about as neutral as it gets. The earlier consensus is fine. Herbfur (talk) 20:34, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Design changes minimal

Shouldn't the article include a section from WP:RS that Big Sur has minimal GUI changes compared to Catalina? As others have noted it looks almost the same. Nowhere near the difference between Mac OS 9 and OS X. 85.148.213.144 (talk) 21:32, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

Big Sur 11.4

A link to the release notes for 11.4 contains no info on 11.4. The most recent info is for 11.3.1. – Dyolf87 (talk) 14:37, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

If you mean this link, perhaps it didn't have any information on 11.4 when you checked it, but it does have information on 11.4 now. Guy Harris (talk) 19:09, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Top stuff! – Dyolf87 (talk) 09:36, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

"ARM64" vs. "arm64e"

See arm64e - An ABI for Pointer Authentication for an explanation of the relationship between Armv8.3 and arm64e. To quote the first slide:

• arm64e is an ABI for pointer authentication on ARMv8.3
• ARMv8.3 is an AArch64 extension provided by the Apple A12 and later (e.g. iPhone XR/XS, released September 2018)

So arm64e is an ABI for the pointer authentication extension of ARMv8.3-A; it might be possible to devise other ABIs for that feature. It also isn't an Apple-specific feature; it's available to all architecture licensees, and Arm can themselves implement it, even though they might not yet have a Cortex-A core that supports it, and non-Apple compilers and operating systems can support it.

The problem reported in the "ARM M1 issue Incompatible architecture: Cannot find arm64e in fat binary" issue isn't that the driver was compiled for some flavor of ARM64 but didn't work because it has to be arm64e, it's that the driver was compiled for x86-64 and there was no AArch64 code in it at all - Apple didn't put Rosetta 2 support into the kernel, so kexts have to include AArch64 code in order to be loaded on an Arm-based Mac. That code also has to be built for the arm64e ABI, because they want the pointer authentication protection to work in kernel mode.

So the CPU part of the platform is probably best described as "Armv8.3-A or later ARM64".

Note, however, that there's more to a platform than a CPU. "x86-64" isn't a platform - somebody could design an x86-64 machine that couldn't boot Windows/Hackintosh macOS/Linux/*BSD/etc., e.g. by using Open Firmware rather than BIOS or UEFI firmware. Most 32-bit and 64-bit x86 machines use that firmware and standardized support chips for the functions that aren't just implemented in the CPU chip, so most of them implement a "PC platform". For Arm, there isn't a standard platform yet, although Arm are promoting Arm SystemReady to try to develop such a platform. So the platform that ARM64 versions of macOS require includes all the "support chip" hardware on the SoC (I think it might not use a standard interrupt controller, for example) and the boot firmware, not just Armv8.3-A or even Armv8.3-A plus the instruction set extensions Apple added on top of Armv8.3-A - even a CPU that implements Armv8.3-A with all of Apple's additional extensions might not suffice. Guy Harris (talk) 02:04, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

Is Python 3 included?

Is Python 3 (not just 2.7, which Apple will remove in a future version) included as claimed?

I'm thinking the claim might be incorrect info, the user installed himself (or some app for him)? Anyone know if Apple claims Python 3 will be removed too later (if actually bundled)? comp.arch (talk) comp.arch (talk) 12:51, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Application features

In November 2021, I believe someone placed a tag that stated that the "Application features" section was in list format although it may look better in prose. I edited the Safari and Messages subsections of that section. If anyone could look over those sections and edit them to look better that would be much appreciated. Nikscholarly20 (talk) 15:05, 21 February 2022 (UTC)Nikscholarly20

I like it. Nicely done! DFlhb (talk) 17:32, 10 March 2023 (UTC)