Talk:Llanito

IPA

[yánito] as a pronunciation is not IPA--[y] in IPA represents German written ü, French written u, not a sound found in either Spanish or English. Removing it. 89.62.105.171 22:00, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Have reverted the IPA pronunciation to what it was previously (IPA: [jɑˈnito] or [ʒɑˈnito]). I'm not sure when it got vandalised to "yánito" or whether the original IPA guide is any different/better than your one. Saluton 01:57, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[ɑ] is probably wrong, or too narrow a transcription—Spanish dialectal variation in phonology tends to conserve vowel quality while modifying consonants or dropping them, I would be surprised if it’s consistently [ɑ]. [j] -> [ʒ] is a Rioplatense thing (Argentina and Uruguay)—see Yeísmo—not really Peninsular Spanish. I personally hear the common (not limited to any regional variant) Spanish allophone of [j] as [dj], but [ʤ] is the more common transcription. 87.187.76.66 12:06, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

The usual sound of "y" in Spain is actually [ʝ] or [ɟ], but I don't know how they pronounce it in Llanito. 213.37.6.106 15:15, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I know I'm coming to the discussion two years late, but I've lived in Gibraltar my whole life and the llanito pronunciation is clearly [ʒ], as it is in Argentina and Uruguay. I'm trying to find a source for this, rather than my personal experience, but it's hard without access to a good university library. This could though be what David Levey is referring to on page 1 of his book when he says “certain Canary Island and South American phonetic features have also been noted in the local pronunciation”.[1] But without access to the right library, I can't look up the source he gives for this. Alboran (talk) 03:45, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Creole? Code Switching?

Are you sure that creole is the right name for this? I'd call it code switching but IANALinguist. -- Error 01:18, 26 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Similar to the spanglish in the US.--Jondel 09:20, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC) fat

I do not know about the grammar of Yanito, but judging from what is presented here, I do not think this is a real creole language. --zeno 12:19, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Indeed, this is nothing like a creole. What it is is plain old code-switching between English and Andalucian Spanish. --John Cowan 06:44, July 16, 2005 (UTC)

I think the example given in this article of llanito is not llanito but as has been rightly said above, code switching. Real llanito is basically creole Spanish with no code switching to English but with many words which have english (or other) origin but are corrupted in form. There is no "but at the end of the day" or "im telling you"... A Gibraltarian should offer a more realistic example of llanito dialect to this page!.--Cassius80 19:22, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Is this so? I'm not quite sure how llanito should be defined, but debating whether it includes code switching, or consists of everything aside from code switching seems dangerously close to original-research territory. Do note that some linguists have called llanito a code switching language - See [2] 87.127.73.65 02:56, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

---

The Spanish for at the end of the day is al fin y al cabo, isn't it? -- Error 00:46, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

at the end of the day

Yes, it is, but "a fin de cuentas" is an expression with an identical or very similar meaning.

--Burgas00 12:07, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Influences on Llanito and differences with Spanish

I have spent some time in Gibraltar, and have looked at various Gibraltar websites, and none of them spell it as Yanito. It's most probably a misspelling by outsiders.

Quiensabe 03:53 UTC 23 Jun 2005

Yanito is sometimes used as a spelling for/by English speakers who neither use nor recognise the "ll" sound in Spanish. As Gibraltarians can pronounce the "ll" we tend to use it.86.143.192.240 22:52, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Where is the Tunisian, Italian and Morrocan influence in Llanito? Can someone give me an example of it? Should llanito be classed as a language or even a dialect? As far as I can tell it is people who speak the Cadiz variant of the Andalusian dialect who also happen to know english and thus switch from one language to the other.--Burgas00 12:51, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

While the basis of Llanito is indeed code-switching between English and Spanish, Llanito is unique in that it also incorporates words from Maltese and from northern Italian dialects (specifically Genoese - such as "marchapie" for pavement or "mesquin" for an unfortunate person, which derives from the Genoese "meschin" or Maltese "miskin"). It has been claimed that some Hebrew words have crept into the vernacular although I cannot provide evidence for this. There is, however, a Llanito phrase "haremos woh" (an expression of resignation, as in "what can we do?") and also "echar el woh" (to curse someone) which are said to have Hebrew origins. In essence while English-Spanish is the foundation of Llanito, it also brings in linguistic elements from the various communities (Genoese, Maltese, etc.) which historically fed into the Gibraltarian population pool.Den1977 17:46, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Den1977: You find a very complicated etymology of the word "Mesquin". Genoese, Maltese...? Dosent it just come from the Spanish word Mezquino (pronounced Mesquino in Andalusian) Mezquino in Spanish has many meaning, among them: unfortunate. It is one of many Spanish words of arabic origin (Miskeen). As for "Haremos woh" it sounds to me like another andalusian mispronounciation of an English word... probably "what". Marchapié is also a Spanish word of French origin (Marchepied) You can find all these words in the Real Academia de la Lengua Española. www.rae.es --Burgas00 20:13, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Burgas00: It seems to me that you are trying your best to negate the fact that there are other linguistic elements that feed into Llanito besides Spanish (or "the Cadiz variant of the Andalusian dialect") or mispronounced English. I do not deny the extremely important role that Spanish plays in Llanito (Spanish, and as you rightly state, particularly Andalusian Spanish, lies without doubt at the very core of Llanito) but equally we cannot deny that its uniqueness, that which makes it more than simple code-swtiching between English and Spanish, or, as you would have it, more than the "andalusian mispronounciation of an English word" is the presence of at least some non-English and non-Spanish words in the lingo. The identification of Genoese/Maltese words is not a fabrication of mine, but has been the focus of work conducted recently by Professor Joseph Brincat from the University of Malta, who presented a paper on the subject at the University of Udine in which he pointed to the presence of Maltese and Genoese elements in Llanito. There are currently various other academic linguistic studies of Llanito underway (Anja Kellermann's book entitled "The New New English: Language, Politics & Identity in Gibraltar" has recently been published as one example). It would appear that the subject is attracting some well-deserved academic attention and we may be able to engage in a more informed debate once the findings of these various studies become available.

Thinking objectively, the notion that Maltese and Genoese (and indeed Hebrew) are present in Llanito should come as no surprise given the historic composition of the Gibraltarian population especially post-1704. It stands to reason, though admittedly it might be difficult to test scientifically, that certain Maltese/Genoese/Hebrew words and expressions have crept into the vernacular and are still in use today albeit perhaps in corrupted (perhaps even in anglicised or hispanicised) forms. Den1977 11:13, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

ofcourse, i would not be surprised if this influence existed, since quite a few gibraltarians have maltese origins. i think caruana is maltese surname... just wanted an example, thats all. not trying to negate any influence, it is just that the examples u gave were not convincing and i am generally interested in the subject. i agree with you that llanito is more than just code switching. the example, of llanito given in the article however does not sound like the llanito i have heard and seems to limit itself to codeswitching... --Burgas00 14:48, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Corominas says that mezquino from Arabic miskîn (poor, destitute) "Es arabismo común a todos los remances de Occidente, antiquísimo en las tres lenguas iberorromances;[...] en italiano aparece también desde los orígenes (Guido Guinizelli, Dante, etc.)" --Error 01:38, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes it exists also in French: Mesquin.

To further complicate matters, it would appear that some words used in Llanito, e.g. "canilla" for "water tap" are terms used not in Spain but in Latin America. I wonder why this could be? There is no significant movement of people from Latin American countries to Gibraltar at any stage during the latter's demographic history, so I wonder where the link could originate? Den1977 10:57, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, many words in latin america derive from the dialects of spanish regions in which there was strong emigration to latin america. For example, the cuban word for bus "la guagua" comes from the canary islands, where it is also used. Andalusian is perhaps the strongest influence on the different latin american spanish languages. Are you sure that the word "canilla" is not used in the rest of Cadiz province? If this word is not used in other towns of the bay of algeciras i dont know its origin...Probably simply an anachronism. Burgas00

According to Corominas, guagua is Cuban, maybe from waggon. It is also used in Canary Islands and Spanish Guinea. --Error 02:11, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

According to a friend of mine, born in Cadiz City and brought up in Sanlucar, canilla is either a tap or a stopcock. It is simply another of those wonderful Baetica Latin anachronisms that still survive in Andalusian Spanish but not in other Peninsular dialects (e.g. "Estar Arreci[d]o", being another one) Asterion 01:10, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Asterion that is what I thought. .. As for Guagua, it is not known whether the word originates in Canarias or in Cuba but considering that Canarians emigrated to Cuba rather than the other way round, one would imagine the word to be of Canarian origin. It is most likely, as you say, a Spanish mispronounciation of Waggon.--Burgas00 17:24, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

http://www.etnografo.com/gibraltar_yanis de.htm

this site is good--Burgas00 12:07, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Here are 2 words that somone might be able to find an origin for. I suspect they're Italian/Maltese: piciaso  ; pastiso

And what about cuecaro? ;-) [a gibbo]

piciaso, pastiso cuécaro... What do these words mean? I have never heard them...--Burgas00 23:22, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Cuecaro is Quaker Oats

Hi Burgas00, piciaso is a disaster, like when smoehting falls through e.g que piciaso = what a disaster/flop

Pastiso is a mess. e.g El cuarto lo tiene(s) hesho un pastiso! = Your room is a mess!

If anyone can find out where these words come from it could be interesting. [a gibbo]

Piciaso can come from Spanish to pifiar which means roughly the same thing. Many people mispronounce pifiar saying piciar. From Piciar to Piciado or Piciaso. But thats just a theory...

Pastiso is probably also Spanish. In Spain we have a similar expression with the word "pastizal". Pastizal --- pastizo...

Writing phonetically with the andalusian accent rather than with proper spelling makes it much harder to find the etymology of a particular word:-)

--Cassius80 20:57, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Well these etymologies presented by Cassius seem right to me... still waiting for an example of a word which is of neither English nor Spanish origin. The claim that there are words of morrocan, genoese or maltese origin is begining to seem like a myth...--Burgas00 11:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

You shouldn't be so eager to dismiss the theory as a myth. It is very difficult for any of us to be able to conduct a scientific corroboration of any of these words. Cassius makes a compelling argument above, but there is, as he himself concedes, as much guesswork there as there was with my original suggestions. The same goes for your earlier dismissal of the phrases "hechar el woh" (to curse) and "haremos woh" (an expression of resignation) as mispronounciations of the English "what" (I'm not convinced!). The 'myth', if it is one, cannot be debunked with other 'myths' and half-baked assumptions, however compelling the explanation may be.

The link between "pifiar" and "piciar" and "pastizal" and "pastiso" is, for me at least, a tenuous one at best. (The RAE definition of "pastizal" is "terreno de abundante pasto"!!!). Why do Gibraltarians use the word "marchapie" for pavement? (the closest I can find is the Spanish "marchapie", which is a "cabo pendiente a lo largo de las vergas, que sirve para sostener a la marinería que trabaja en ellas" (RAE definition) and the French "marchepied" which exists in a different context (it means "running board" or "footboard"). The proper noun "panissa" is clearly Genoese, its a local dish, brought here from Genoa and similar to the "calentita" (a Genoese-inspired dish with a Spanish name). Den1977 15:11, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi Den,

Actually the link between pifiar and "piciar" is beyond doubt since it exists in Spanish from Spain itself. "Piciar" (as does pifiar) in Spain means "to screw up", so in this sense, the etymology is almost certainly Spanish. As for Pastiso, you are right that in Spanish "pastizal" means a grassy field but in Spanish it also means roughly a disaster, a mess or a difficult situation (the same as pastiso in llanito). As for marchapié, I dont know the exact meaning of this word in llanito. Does it mean pavement? And is panissa also llanito? The latter is certainly of foreign origin.

--Cassius80 17:43, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Italian marciapiede means "pavement" and comes from French marche a pied.

Joan Corominas has in pipa:

pifia[...] (pron. vg. picia en Murcia, Castilla, Galicia, Vizcaya, etc.[...]

--Error 02:39, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

How about "shuni" as an example of a word with no obvious Spanish or English origin. It means "cute" and god knows where it comes from. Actually, does anyone know anything about these words? Are any in use in Spain? Any etymologies for them? -

"Chivato" - a tell tale

"ta vuti!"/ "davuti!"/ "'vuti!" - "Cool!"

"poorish" - similar to "house" when playing a childern's game

"Giri" - a derogatory term for an English person

87.127.73.65 02:56, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

In addition, there are words in Llanito that are undeniably Spanish(or Anduluz) in origin but are not used in the same way as in Spain. We say

"colorado"(colorao) not "rojo" for red;

"marchapie"(mashapie) not "acera" for pavement;

"zarcillo"(salsillo) not "pendiente" for earring;

"boquete"(voquete) not "agujero" for hole;

Spellings from RAE, Llanito from me:) In addition we sometimes use Spanish words with a different meaning e.g. "Picar" to "knock(on a door)". RAE does not give that meaning to that word. Is this the definition of a dialect? It certainly wouldn't be considered to be "proper" Spanish.86.143.192.240 22:52, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Maybe not, but all of those words are used in Spain in exactly the same way as in Gibraltar (except maybe for marchapié). Not all Spaniards use "proper" Spanish, in fact most dont.:-)

wo

-) I have found the origin of the word "wo".Apparently it it entered Judeo Spanish through English. Its on the site of the Jewish community of Malaga..http://www.cimalaga.org/paginas/ingles/ofeverything.htm

--Cassius80 17:47, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Code Switching

I have erased the example of Yanito since it is more code switching than Yanito itself. Yanito is not about code switching at all. It is a dialect of Andalusian Spanish with English and other influences.

Is this so? I'm not quite sure how llanito should be defined, but debating whether it includes code switching, or consists of everything aside from code switching seems dangerously close to original-research territory. Do note that some linguists have called llanito a code switching language - See [3] 87.127.73.65 02:56, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

examples of llanito expressions

I am surprised by the etymology given for "napia" since it is a word used in all of Spain. Same goes for "pasma" which is also slang for police in regular spanish. --Burgas00 17:10, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Really, that is surprising. I wouldn't have expected these words to be found throughout Spain. Perhaps it is just a coincidence. If you are interested in Llanito expressions and words there is a whole list in this website. Did you know that the word 'pequeño' is virtually unheard-of in Gib; instead the word 'chico' is used - for example: Un perro chico. By and large, when I am in Spain and I use the word 'chico' they don't have a clue on what I am on about.

I was recently corresponding with a scholar from Cambridge who was studying the sociolinguistic history of Gibraltar for his PhD, it is basically a study of how the language changed thoughout the years in Gib, really curious too. Chris Buttigieg^talk 07:34, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I had realised this and I'm hoping to remove all Spanish words and expressions from the article and include one which are pure llanito, when I can find some time. Hey Chris, chico is also most definately Spanish. Not so much used in Castillian to mean "small" but definately used in Andalusian for that meaning. It's also used in the Canary Islands and South America in the same context. If you search the word in the Real Acaddemia Española Dictionary you can see that the first definition given is that of "small".

Pasma is Spanish slang for Police, however, in Gib variations of this word is used (parma or palma).

I'm getting pretty interested in the subject and have been compiling a list of Llanito words with their translations in both English and Spanish. Words like Pavana to mean seagull or gaviota in Spanish or Tablita when refering to the board game of Ludo or Parchís.

The problem is that a lot of people in Gib do not know where most words originate from and can't distinguish words from llanito from those of Spanish or English origin. I think that with a little research we can create a decent article here and I'm sure we'll all learn a little in the process :) Gibmetal 77^talk 08:32, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Yep I concur Chico is just another way of saying pequeno in all of Spain, although it is much more regularly used in the southern parts of the country, where indeed pequeno is rarely used. All Spaniards would know what you mean when you say chico because everyone is familiarised with the southern dialects of the language. The same goes for southamerica where it is used meaning small in just about every latin american country.

Nevertheless there are many words and expressions which are specific to Gibraltar. Its just a question of finding the right examples. I speak Spanish at a native level so I can check for you any proposals to be included in the article instead of pasma, chico or napia. As far as I know pavana is not a Spanish word. I wouldnt be surprised if it was of Italian origin. Tablita is a llanito word.

An important discovery I just made: It seems that llanito is also widely spoken in la linea de la concepcion. http://www.lalinea.ws/foro/showthread.php?t=122 --Burgas00 20:45, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes some Llanito is spoken in La Línea De La Concepción this is due to a large number of linenses working in Gib over many years (which I have included in the article) as well as the simple reason of proximity.

Wow, that's really interesting. I didn't think such words were so widespread. I knew that a few Llanito expressions are used in La Linea, but not to that extent. As Gibmetal said, it is in all likelihood due to the Spaniards working in Gib, and of course the close proximity. Chris Buttigieg^talk 07:33, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Burgas00: I have changed "dialect back to creole as it isn't a dialect derived of a single language but a mixture of more than two languages. I hope this is ok for the moment, at least until we can find some backing evidence for an other classification. :)

I hope we can spruce the article up to a good standard. It definitely needs sections; how about Intro, Natives (meaning gentilicio not sure whether it's the correct term), Etymology, Grammer, Vocabulary...? Gibmetal 77^talk 23:55, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

The problem with that is, seeing that Llanito is not an 'official' language (by 'official' I mean that it is not recognised as a language for business, commerce, education ect, neither are there any dictionaries, punctuation or grammar material available etc) such official vocabulary and grammar sections as you suggested will lack. One could deem it almost a language just for verbal use. But yes, the other headings would be perfect. Chris Buttigieg^talk 07:33, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I see the point your trying to make Chris. However, there are two Llanito dictonaries available in Gib. I used to own them both but I seem to have lost them. These are by no means anywhere close to an Oxford or Collins dictionary but they do list a significant amount of Llanito words. Whereas to grammer, what I meant was to explain under the heading was just that. That Llanito doesn't really have a solid grammatical structure but is rather a very flexible language where both English and Spanish sentence structure is used at anytime. It could be compared to the way that both Semitic and Romance grammatical structures are accepted in Maltese. Let's see if I can get hold of at least one of the Llanito dictionaries soon... Gibmetal 77^talk 08:44, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes yes I have seen the dictionaries, but as you said yourself, they aren't anything official, that is mainly what puts me off. Chris Buttigieg^talk 12:04, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I know what you mean. It might be a good idea for the Governement of Gibraltar to set up a regulatory board for Llanito. This way we could have a well structured form of Llanito ;) Gibmetal 77^talk 12:39, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I am afraid that the only regulatory board being set up is for Mr Cervantes - I suggest we sue those philistine politicians at once. ;p Chris Buttigieg^talk 14:37, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I dont know. I am not a llanito but I have been there on many occastions and I have listened to the locals speak among them. As is written in the article, I did notice that code-switching seems to be a phenomenon largely restricted to the upper echelons of society. Generally, llanitos speak a version of Andalusian (or rather Cadiz) Spanish, which has a wealth of local terms and expressions.

Whether this can be classed as a dialect, a creole language or perhaps a "manner of speech" I dont know. Comparing Llanito to Maltese is pushing it a bit, i think. :-) --Burgas00 10:51, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

No No, don't get me wrong. I'm not comparing Llanito to the Maltese language, I'm merely stating that in Llanito two different forms of grammatical structure is valid. I only mentioned Maltese as a way to explain what I meant. :) Gibmetal 77^talk 11:27, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion I would not classify Llanito as a language or creole as such, mainly due to the fact that a language is defined as the speech of a country, region, or group of people, including its vocabulary, syntax, and grammar. Now where is the grammar etc? This is just my opinion, but frankly you couldn't go and study Llanito or read a book in Llanito. Perhaps it could just be considered a patois or better still, just 'the vernacular', but I'm not sure about that. I would think the latter would be better though given that one of the definitions of a vernacular is the common spoken language of a people, as distinct from formal written or literary language. Ultimately, most of Llanito is Andalusian with a few odd words in English thrown in, as well as a various unique words common to neither. Chris Buttigieg^talk 11:57, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't know what to say... There's been a number of linguists that have tried to classify Llanito but it seems that no one really agrees on the matter. In the past it's been classified as a dialect, creole, patois and vernacular among many others. It's not an easy matter to deal with. As for books in Llanito there actually are a few around. I'll try to get back to you with titles and authors. Gibmetal 77^talk 12:39, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Yea that is the main problem, a lack of material on the subject. Chris Buttigieg^talk 14:37, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

The thing is that "creole" implies something which llanito is not. I mean you cant compare it to Papiamentu or some of those pidgin French or English languages spoken in the carribean or west africa. By in large, llanito is correct (Andalusian) Spanish. The grammar, the syntax, the tenses and conjugations are all correct Spanish. The main difference, as Chris mentions, is that there are some lexical terms (derived mostly from English) which are unknown in other forms of Spanish. And secondly there is the code-switching, which is practiced by a number of llanitos. Then again, it is also practiced by a number of Puertoricans and Mexicans.

I would say that Puerto Rican Spanish, for example, is as influenced by English (if not more) as llanito is. Nevertheless, it is still not classified as a patois or creole language. Perhaps the main difference, is that whereas in Puerto Rico, Spanish has official status, and thus access to "standard" Spanish is available to the population, in Gibraltar it is not, at least in theory.

Then there is clearly the issue of politics. Classifying llanito as a patois or a language as opposed to simply "Spanish" clearly has indirect political implications in the Anglo-Spanish dispute. In Spain, for example, Galician is classified as a language rather than what it is (a mixture of Spanish and Portuguese) and Valencian is also generally regarded as a separate "language" (when its really a dialect of Catalan) because of the political hostility between Valencia and Catalonia. There has been a debate on Andalusian Spanish, but I think it is now classified as a "manner of speech" or something like that. --Burgas00 15:34, 15 June 2007 (UTC) --Burgas00 15:34, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I personally like it as it is now - 'the vernacular'. Futhermore, it is not as specific and therefore leaves some more room for classification. Chris Buttigieg^talk 21:41, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

It looks like the current definition of Llanito is quite good, considering how difficult it is to define.

--Burgas00 16:05, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I just wanted to point out that Llanito isn't really spoken in La Línea. However, a number of Llanito words are common in speech. Just thout I'd make it a bit clearer. :) Gibmetal 77^talk 23:19, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

See here. That's exactly what I said! :p Chris Buttigieg^talk 05:47, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Oops sorry. Glad to know that someone else realised this. Gibmetal 77^talk 11:28, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Although I acknowledge that various ‘Llanito’ words have pervaded La Linea, this does not illustrate that Llanito, which is unique to Gibraltar with respect to its overall attributes, is employed in La Linea. Yes, as I said, various Llanito words have pervaded La Linea, this is inevitable due to the locality of Gibraltar, but these are just the individual traits from the parlance spoken in La Linea – just as another town in Spain would have its respective traits. In La Linea, [the Andalusian dialect of] Spanish is spoken, is used officially, used in schools and is evidently not the same as Llanito. As we well know, Llanito encompasses code-switching (the closest comparison would be Spanglish) which is not present in the parlance of La Linea, this I can assure you. In layman’s terms this means that you would not obtain a very positive result by speaking to someone from La Linea using both English and Andaluz in the same sentence – unless of course they could understand English, but this is irrelevant. I could use some examples to help exemplify what I mean regarding the differences between the Spanish used in Llanito and the Spanish used in La Linea. In Spanish, the 2nd plural grammatical person (i.e. vosotros) is not used in Gibraltar even in a formal context (or if not, is rarely used) – in La Linea on the other hand I would assume that the tense would be second nature. There are hundreds of minor things which separate the Spanish spoken in La Linea with the Spanish spoken in Gibraltar, as part of Llanito if you so wish to call it. You have to bear in mind that the ‘Llanito’ spoken in Gibraltar is composed largely of Andaluz with English words thrown in, in all likelihood due to the fact that its Spanish translation is not instantly called to mind therefore the English equivalent is used in lieu. The best example I can give you of this (and is most frequented) would be the Spanish word for ‘switch’ – interruptor. If I was to say ‘Where is the switch?’ I would instinctively say ‘¿Dónde está el switch? And I am certain that most Gibraltarians would do to. Chris Buttigieg^talk 12:55, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Im moving this whole discussion to the Llanito page, since that is what we are discussing.

Im not convinced by your 2 examples, Chris. In Spanish, (Andalusian or not) one would say "Donde esta la luz" not "el interruptor", a word which is rarely, if ever, used. Im pretty sure, that "la luz" for the switch is said in Gibraltar aswell. As for "vostros", one of the distinguishing features of Andalusian Spanish is the absence of this word. As in Gibraltar, it is replaced by Ustedes in all contexts, sometimes in mixed contexts such as "Ustedes vais a Gibraltar".

I know that code switching is absent in La Linea, although I disagree that Code Switching is the distinguishing feature of Llanito. It is its rich lexical differences with Andalusian Spanish which make it "unique", not the practice of Spanglish by some of Gibraltar's inhabitants. This is why Im arguing that Llanito is also spoken in La Linea.

Chris, where are your Spanish friends from? They seem to speak (and understand) only a ridiculously formal form of Spanish which is giving you a wrong idea about the language... Burgas00

Okay, perhaps those examples were not the best; I only assumed the terms would be used it ordinary Spanish. I cannot think of any other examples at the moment, however I still differ in opinion about Llanito being spoken in La Linea. In a nutshell I would say that the parlance spoken in La Linea is very different from that of Llanito. You can notice it automatically. Let us say someone from La Linea enters a shop in Gib, on hearing them speak you would naturaly judge them as being Spanish. Likewise, if I entered a shop in La Linea they would tell that I wasn't Spanish. There is a vast difference between 'Llanito' and the Spanish spoken in La Linea, code-switching being one of the big differences.

I personally steer clear from using Llanito when I speak because in my opinion it sounds awful, like poor Spanish. I am not the only one, you will find that most of the younger generations use standard English perfectly instead of Spanish.

And yes, you are very right to say that ustedes is used in lieu of vosotros; "Ustedes vais..." is a classic example. Chris Buttigieg^talk 17:17, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I have listed two Llanito words and was wondering whether you could tell me whether they were used in Spanish or meant the same:

• Chungo = unfair (describing a person)
• [Tener] pija = to be very lucky (often undeservedly) Chris Buttigieg^talk 17:48, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you Chris; Llanito as such is not spoken in La Línea even though some words are widely used there. Even if it has not been as popular as in recent times, code-switching has always been a part of Llanito.

Chris, both of those words are used in Spanish. However, they are not used in the same context. In Gib "Chungo" (should probably be written as "Shungo" for Llanito, as it is pronounced in as in Andalusian) is used to describe something or someone that is unfair (as you said). It is also used as a synonym of the Andalusian word "malaje" (which is no doubt also widely used in Llanito).

e.g.

• Está shungo que they gave him el job y a mí no.
• Qué shungo ere, yo te di bolillas before!

In Spanish "Pijo/a" is something or someone that is posh (or a bit of a rude word in certain contexts). However, in Gib "tener pija" means to have luck. Much like "tener potra" is used in Spain.

e.g.

• Qué pija tiene el Michael que siempre pasa lo exams sin hacer studying at all!

To sum up, these words are originally of Spanish origin but are used in diferent contexts in Llanito. Hope this helps Chris. Gibmetal 77^talk 23:24, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Well you guys have chosen maybe the two most versatile words in the Spanish language. Chungo is indeed a Spanish word of Calo origin. It is commonly used for the following meanings:

• ugly
• frightening
• difficult
• bad, generally
• sleazy
• rotten
• etc...

As for Pija, the word has many meanings in different parts of Spain and of the Spanish speaking world, although I am not familiar with it being used to mean "luck". I wouldnt rule it out though.

One thing, Chris, if you entered a shop in Spain and people would recognise you not as not Spanish that can only mean that your mother tongue (what you spoke at home) is English. However, the vast majority of Gibraltarians, whos mother tongue is llanito, would not be recognised as foreign in Spain, at least in the context of small talk.

--Burgas00 22:08, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

As I said Burgas, they are indeed of Spanish origin. Chris, a good way to check is to look them up in the Real Academia Española website.

On the other note, there are many people who speak Llanito and yet do not have a good level of Spanish as such. These people can be easily classified as foreigners by Spaniards. This might not be noticed at first but definitely after a few phrases are exchanged. Gibmetal 77^talk 23:07, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

In the article: Llanito: Ay 'n call pa ti. Spanish: Tienes una llamada. Wouldn't it make more sense for the Spanish to be "Hay una llamada para ti"? 2604:2000:F1A1:B00:191F:A681:BDD:76DF (talk) 01:40, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Improvement

Anyone has any ideas for improving this article? Its kind of short for a potentially very interesting article... Maybe something on the historical development of the dialect... --Guzman ramirez 20:47, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes that would be ideal, the problem is that there is a general lack of documentation on Llanito. I am trying very hard to get hold of a copy of the very few publications that exist, but unfortunately I'm not being very succesful. Gibmetal 77^talk 21:13, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Are any of these words expressions present in llanito? Trying to find more Jaquetía words apart from wo.

• Ada — Tradition.
• Adafina — Jewish-Moroccan dish with cold cuts.
• Ainará — Evil eye (from the Hebrew עין הרע.)
• Alboronia or almoronia — Jewish-Moroccan dish made with eggplant, onions and shredded chicken.
• Boril — A bore.
• Caído de mazal, demudado del mazal, enfollinado del mazal, kefreado del mazal — All meaning bad luck.
• Chamor, Chamorice — Dumb, dumbness! (From Hebrew Chamor (חמור)- Donkey)
• Chará, Charear — Shit, and to shit (taboo).
• Chadrear — To speak.
• De las castas se traen las reinas — From father to son.
• El Dio te jadee de malos caminos — God protect you on your wandering.
• Esso no hamlea a nadie — This guy doesn't like anybody.
• Estar em Alef Beit — I'm beginning.
• Jajmear - To think.
• Fecnear — Pay attention.
• Guezerá — Calamity.
• Guezerá negra — Big calamity.
• Hacer kabot — To honor. (From the Hebrew Kavod כבוד )
• Josmin — With a poor appearance, kitsch.
• Maklear - To eat.
• Mano de refuá — Healing gift. In Hebrew refua = Medicine - רפוע
• Matena yado — Anything you may give.
• Me telfié el camino — I made a mistake.
• Mejorado cien años — May you live to 100.
• Meshquin, Meshquina — Poor soul. (From the Hebrew Misken מיסכן )
• Negro mazal — Bad luck. (Spanish black (negro), hebrew Mazal מזל= luck )
• No sepamos del mal ! - about a very bad thing, means "May we be protected from such evil!"
• Paras - Money
• Pescado cocho — Cooked fish, the Jewish-Moroccan way.
• Quebrar o cortar el taanit — Break the fast.
• Rabi Schimon! — Equivalent to “Oh my God!”
• Sachen, sachená — Man, woman. From the Hebrew Sachen (neighbor) שכן
• Sachor, sachorá — Black man, black woman. From the Hebrew שחור
• Safon safonear — Fart, to fart (taboo).
• Shufear — To pay attention.
• Su boca en la rogerá — Don't say evil things!
• Xaxo — Vagina (taboo).
• Wo por ti se haga — Damn you!
• Ya que estás ai, kadmei y merki — As you are here, help yourself.

Burgas00 12:38, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi Burgass, I've read your list and none of them are used in Llanito as far as I know, except one! The word mesquín (note the abscence of the 'h') is used to mean the same (poor soul or 'pobrecito' en castellano). It is said there are over 500 llanito words of Hebrew and Genoese origin. However, I don't speak any Hebrew or Genoese myself but I do know some Maltese. The word miskin in Maltese also has the same meaning. The Maltese-English dictionary Kemet il-Malti by Captain Pawlu Bugeja gives the definition for this word as poor fellow; miserable; unfortunate. Which also perfectly matches its definition in Llanito.

Other words from possible Maltese origin include:

• Floosh - Money. From Maltese Flus
• Charaban - Bus. From the Maltese Xarabank
• Calamita - Magnet. From the Maltese Kalamita

At the moment I am carrying out some research on the topic and will report back when I find out some more.

Gibmetal 77^talk 18:11, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I must have looked over those words about ten times and quite frankly I cannot recognise any. But it's actually quite interesting, because they sound llanito-ish but I cannot make heads or tails out of them!

I don't think llanito is as popular with the youth nowadays, I suppose its use has been declining, but I couldn't really say. Chris.B 18:35, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

This is really interesting. Are floosh, mesquin, charaban and calamita used in llanito nowadays? The thing about Maltese is that it is basically Arabic. If you speak Maltese you can positively understand Tunisian Arabic. Words like Miskin and Flus are both of Arabic origin and, if they are present in Llanito, they may have entered the language through Maltese, Haquetia or Moroccan Arabic. --Burgas00 19:57, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Calamita is definitely used in llanito nowadays, I don't know about the others though, I haven't heard them before. Chris.B 20:22, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Calamita is a Spanish word. :( http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltConsulta?TIPO_BUS=3&LEMA=calamita

Not widely used though... I didnt know it at least...

--Burgas00 01:30, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Chris, I'm surprised that you have never heard the term Floosh being used in Gib. It is a very common word (even more than Calamita I'd say). However, they are both commonly used in Llanito today. Mesquin and Charaban probably less, but still occasionaly used.

A lot of Maltese definitely comes from Maghrebi Arabic. However, a very large number of words are also of Romance origin especially Sicilian. It is most likely that these words entered Llanito through Maltese or even Haketia, as a considerable Arabic community only really settled in Gibraltar less than 40 years ago. I have asked a number of 70-80 year old Gibraltarians and they confirmed that these words were in use in Gibraltar before WWII. This (in theory) tells us that they did not enter Llanito directly from Arabic.

Good work there Burgass, I definitely did not know that Calamita was also a Spanish word either. I even checked in my diccionario de la lengua española and it doesn't feature. As you said it doesn't seem to be a very widespread term, I have always known it as imán. Perhaps calamita is used to define the natural magnetic mineral rather than the manufactured product. Who knows... Gibmetal 77^talk 02:33, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi. I've found a website here that claims to list a few phrases of Haquetía origin used by non-Jews as well as Jews in Llanito.

• Ainear - to look at, eg: ‘Ainea el sahen’ (from Hebrew ’Ain = Eye)
• Alcatufa - Chufa, "tiger nut" ( from Arabic).
• Bezim - Courage. pl. ‘bezims. (From Hebrew Eggs = testicles)
• Camalo - Porter, Stevedore.
• Chavos - money (’Ochavos’)
• Esnoga - Synagogue (from Portuguese)
• Hasheo - Gossip
• Ma’ot - money (from Hebrew)
• Parné - money (from Hebrew ‘parnasá’)
• Sahen - ‘neighbour (from Hebrew. Referring to someone in earshot)
• Tumá - Lit. ‘dirt’. Used derisively for the (Catholic) Church: eg: ‘Tengo una tia muy metida en la tumá.’ - ‘I have a very religious aunt.’ Almost certainly used without knowing the literal meaning (from Hebrew)!
• Woh! - Woe -- (from English) eg: ‘Woh por ti!’= Woe to you! ‘Haremos woh’= so what?

Should we add any of these? Isaacmayer9 (talk) 17:55, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

Status and attitudes

It is clear that Llanito is looked down on by some people, probably the more upper class elements of the society. Can this article supply more information on its status, and also how attitudes are affecting it? --MacRusgail (talk) 16:19, 9 August 2008 (UTC)⅓

What makes it so clear that Llanito is looked down upon? I can't quite fathom how you managed to draw up that sociolinguistic conclusion tbh. Mind, if you have any verifiable and reliable sources to back up such a claim, feel free to add it to the article. Otherwise it remains original research. RedCoat10 (talk) 19:17, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

This is not "Original Research", and I wish folk on wikipedia would stop pulling that particular "rabbit" out of the hat... The link to the Llanito/Yanito dictionary more or less states that every word in Llanito is a "corruption" of the "correct" English and Spanish forms. This gives an idea of the POV problems involved with it. English is a mishmash of "bad" French (Norman actually) and a coastal Germanic dialect. "I been" may well be "bad" English, but "Ich bin" is perfectly good German. "Beautiful" is bad French ("beau" should be "boe", not "byoo") with a Germanic suffix for example. Likewise, just because something is correct in Castillian, doesn't make it incorrect in Llanito. After all, Spanish is also a mishmash, of vulgar Latin and "bad" Arabic, with some Basque and Celtic words thrown in for good measure.--MacRusgail (talk) 15:52, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Original research is defined as "unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis"—to claim that Llanito "suffers from a degree of stigma" is wholly unsubstantiated and founded on personal analysis. I also don't see how the etymology of Llanito words can have any bearing on this. Please refrain from reinserting material that infringes Wikipedia's core policies. RedCoat10 (talk) 18:20, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. --Gibmetal 77^talk 20:08, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

It's not "speculation" though. I provided a source. The dictionary listed makes out that Llanito words are all "incorrect", even though the same charge could be levelled at English, Spanish, Andalusian or Catalan.

"I also don't see how the etymology of Llanito words can have any bearing on this." - see above. These words are no more "incorrect" forms than the ones used in standard Spanish or English. --MacRusgail (talk) 14:27, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Simply because a dictionary suggests that Llanito words may be incorrect versions of their derivatives can in no way corroborate the notion that there is a purported "degree of stigma" surrounding its use in society. The dictionary carries no implications that I can see about whether Llanito is seen as an "incorrect" version of Spanish and neither should this article based on nothing more than an unpublished analysis. RedCoat10 (talk) 15:50, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Of course it does. Spanish is nothing but an "incorrect" version of Latin, but no one talks about it as such all the time.--MacRusgail (talk) 17:31, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Llanito is not a language

It has never being classified as a language by any of the linguists who have researched Llanito thoroughly. It is not standardised as any language would be. Regards, --Gibmetal 77^talk 22:05, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

This reminds me of the "language" spoken by Portuguese immigrants in the US and Canada. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.243.128.180 (talk) 13:13, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Correct category

Thanks RedCoat for reverting El estremeñu's edit again. I'll explain why we did so for El estremeñu's sake...

The article should be categorised under Andalusian Spanish variants as Llanito is mainly based on this form of Spanish, as stated in the article. It should not be categorised under Spanish variants of Spain (which I assume means Spanish language variants in Spain) as Gibraltar does not form part of Spain. Regards, --Gibmetal 77^talk 19:41, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

External links

I've removed the link to this blog for the second time as per WP:ELNO. --Gibmetal 77^talk 22:29, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I have to inform you that this link provides information on the Llanito language and it is a valid and relevant link as are the other three links. The link has been on this page for over six months and I can't see the reason why it should be removed now. User:Dale Buttigieg 00:44 10 September 2009 (UTC)

First of all Llanito is not a language. As a blog, it is not a valid link in Wikipedia and the reason it has been there for sometime is simply because nobody has noticed until now. --Gibmetal 77^talk 08:37, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Anyway this link provides a way of writing Llanito, which is one step foward in the development of Llanito. User:Dale Buttigieg 01:07 10 September 2009 (UTC)

There is no formal way of writing Llanito, the blog is only a personal interpretation of this (your own I suspect, right?). Moreover, the vast majority of the verb conjugations in the blog would perfectly apply to Andalusian Spanish in its own right. --Gibmetal 77^talk 08:37, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't want any conflict but I am sorry to disagree with you, the other three links also show words and other things in Llanito and they are also amateur sites so therefore this link is as valid as the other three links. User:Dale Buttigieg 01:07 10 September 2009 (UTC)

One of those links to a local daily newspaper, The Panorama and another is the research of a Gibraltarian historian. The issue is that the link you keep adding to the article is a blog and Wikipedia does not allow links to blogs.

Please note I also dislike engaging in conflicts. We just need to keep to Wikipedia's policies... --Gibmetal 77^talk 13:48, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Llanito is a language

Llanito is a language just as Croatian, Bosnian and Serbian are. Just because it is not recognised officialy it does not mean that it is not a language. User:Dale Buttigieg 01:05 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm afraid you will find it is not. There are certain criteria a language has to meet before it can be called one. So far we can only be call it a vernacular. --Gibmetal 77^talk 08:41, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Aye, I've noticed, some people from Gibraltar have a bizarre attitude towards it. That's not exactly unique though - in every part of the British Isles (bar some parts of Wales), people seem to have an inferiority complex about non-English culture and language. The combination of fond nostalgia and embarrassment is to be fond amongst speakers of Lowland Scots and Scottish Gaelic too. Some manifestations of this is that the "vernacular" in question is either ignored, or treated as a joke, or at least only fit for humorous material... or just to be used in suitably "couthy"/schmatlzy circumstances. Of course it's just a coincidence that the English language and culture is the only one to be taken seriously.--MacRusgail (talk) 17:27, 9 March 2010 (UTC) p.s. I would favour categorising it as some kind of creole, but the other editors on here disagree with me.

There are multiple definitions of "language" and "dialect", but the ISO 639-3 codes are seen as having some authority in recognizing what is a language. An application for a language code for Llanito was made in 2010: [4]. It was not accepted: [5]. Pete unseth (talk) 22:01, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Is there an ISO subcode, comparable with en-GB for British English, such as es-ll? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:27, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

That would only be possible if Llanito were a variant of English but it's not. It makes me wonder, however, whether Gibraltarian English would meet the criteria for an ISO subcode... --Gibmetal 77^{talk 2 me} 13:44, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

No, it would be possible if Llanito were a variant of Spanish (hence "es-"), which it apparently is, or indeed any other languagae. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:50, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Sorry Andy, I misread your earlier comment. Thing is although heavily based on Andalusian Spanish, I wouldn't say it's a variant of Spanish either as it has to many external influences. It's very difficult to classify. I've lost count of all the papers I've read on language use in Gibraltar and no one seems to agree on what Llanito actually is! --Gibmetal 77^{talk 2 me} 14:13, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Gallina or pollo for Spanish?

For the example:

Llanito: No puedo cocé la gallina porqué la tengo frozen...

Spanish: No puedo cocer el pollo porque está congelado...

English: I can't cook the chicken because it's frozen...

My understanding is that gallina is a Spanish word which is more specific than pollo/chicken, that is, hen. So why would the translation be pollo, not gallina, as well, and why would the English translation not be hen? Thisisnotatest (talk) 08:55, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

In this context chicken is being used as in the meat of the chicken, not the animal itself (cf. you wouldn't say "I can't cook the hen because it's frozen"). In Spain chicken (as in the meat) is invariably "pollo" whereas in Gibraltar "gallina" is the norm when referring to the meat. To Spanish ears this sounds odd because "gallina" as you say, has a more specific meaning. In much the same vein, in Gibraltar when referring to one's neck it's quite common to hear "el pesquezo" (rather than, "el cuello" as is the norm in Spain, with "pesquezo" usually reserved for a more anatomical context.) RedCoat10 (talk) 11:53, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. That was very clear. That totally belongs in the article if there's a Wikipedia-acceptable source. Thisisnotatest (talk) 06:36, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

RedCoat10, Thisisnotatest In Spain gallina and pollo are used interchangeably for the meat of the hen. Gallina simply implies the chicken is a bit older. Pescuezo is slang in Spanish for neck an is not at all reserved for "a more anatomical context". Quite the opposite actually. When looking at llanito we should focus on differences with Andalusian Spanish. Frankly, beyond the code switching to English here, I see no difference with Andalusian Spanish, which is a shame since differences do exist - mainly in certain vocabulary. A new example should be provided incorporating SPECIFICALLY Llanito words and ideally avoiding code-switching since that is not the key characteristic of the dialect and its linguistic heritage. Otherwise we might as well call the article Spanglish. "llamar pa tras" is the only good example provided so far, but there are many more.Asilah1981 (talk) 23:29, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

RedCoat10 is a native Gibraltarian FYI. WCM_email 07:24, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Recent Edits

Wee Curry Monster What happened to not making edits without discussing on the talk page first? That has been your main line of argument in reverting me over the past week!Asilah1981 (talk) 22:58, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

WP:BRD particularly Don't restore your changes or engage in back-and-forth reverts,

There is nowhere in Levey where he says that Llanito is not a Creole and this has been pointed out to you. If you cite something to a source, which is not in the source, that is citation fraud. I can't understand why you'd knowingly restore something like that.

"spoken in the accent of Cadiz province" is not in the source, in fact Levey would contradict that noting part of the accent comes from farther afield. This appears to be your own personal conclusion.

You are substituting Spanish spelling, Llanito doesn't use them in written form. Que is written Ke, I checked this out before I reverted - told you so in the edit summary. Why would you continue to reverse it?

I am really unhappy about having to revert your edits all the time, I really hate reverting but your changes genuinely do not improve the article. That is the only reason why I'm doing it. WCM_email 07:22, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Find me a source from Gibraltar (newspaper, magazine anything) where Gibraltarians are writing "ke" like 13 year old kids on whatsapp and I will agree with you. Until then, we should assume the inhabitants of this territory to be literate. Asilah1981 (talk) 12:09, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

Here is a sample of code-switching Llanito in Panorama magazine. As you can see, the word "ke" is not used, mainly because writing like that makes you look retarded, Gibraltarian or not. Asilah1981 (talk) 12:20, 22 September 2016 (UTC) https://books.google.es/books?id=3-qVgdSkljcC&pg=PA89&lpg=PA89&dq=Calentita column&source=bl&ots=TdyYwstZ8v&sig=DyaOBKHyrk53XDL3Et5CTviRrps&hl=es&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiWiPWr-aLPAhUDMhoKHW0_CqoQ6AEIHzAA#v=onepage&q=Calentita column&f=false

Here is a use of "ke" in a Spanish English publication. Can't speak as to whether the publication meets citation requirements. Thisisnotatest (talk) 08:36, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Yanito

Hola! Could we upgrade the Yanito examples section and turn it into a proper dictionary? There is plenty online to expand it!14:06, 24 August 2016 (UTC)Llanimami (talk)

Personal opinion and OR

I reverted Asilah1981, for once again returning to this article to insert his own personal opinions and original research. I will also remind him he promised admins he would lay off this topic and stop edit warring. WCM_email 17:55, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

WCM Excuse me? I make an individual edit and you automatically revert it, accusing me of edit-warring and reminding me that I "promised admins I would lay off these articles"? Talk about surreal perception of reality. If you have something against a particular edit I make, explain it, don't revert it just because its made by someone you dislike.Asilah1981 (talk) 18:02, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

AS I said in my edit summary, once again it's your personal opinions mixed with your original research and you're edit warring to force it into the article, claiming (falsely) I didn't explain myself. I note you're also claiming the source supports your edit as you have done previously. I do not believe it does and invite you to self-revert. WCM_email 20:46, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

The source certainly does not support what was written before. I invite you to point me to where it does. I have read the first chapter of the source and my edit reflects what it says. Could you please point to where the Levey claims Llanito is "an ecclectic mix of Andalusian Spanish and British English, marked by a great deal of code-switching and loanwords from Italian"? The sentence doesn't even make sense. Code-switching already implies a mixing of languages so the sentence is inherently ridiculous. It is saying "Llanito is X marked by X". My edit was as faithful as I could make it to what Levey says in his description. But if this is going to turn into another edit war we will have to settle on a direct quote. Also 95% of unique loanwords in Llanito are taken from English. Asilah1981 (talk) 21:25, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

I looked at the edit in question before coming here but after seeing the edit summary claiming a reversion of opinion and OR. I couldn't see any opinion or OR. At all. All I saw was a pretty decent copy edit, which might have made some very subtle meaning changes. And even in those subtle meaning differences, I don't see how one can claim one version was more opinionated or less supported by citations than the other. Furthermore, the fact that this was a wholesale reversion of an edit with multiple pieces rather than an attempt to improve it bothers me. It does look like something personal, which is consistent with the wording above where the reverter describes it as a reversion of the editor, not of the edit. Bryan Henderson (giraffedata) (talk) 03:05, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

Actually there are two things that are key to Llanito, one US code switching the other is a large number of loan words from other languages. Asilah asserts it's "just" Andalusian Spanish and has toned the words down. Now he's decided he can change the way it's written changing the local colloquium to standard Spanish. Yes we know there isn't a standardised formal way of writing Llanito but it is not generally written in the formal Spanish way, so Que is usually written Ke. Once again the editor US forcing personal opinion into the article. What was written materially altered what the article was saying and given I'm editing on a tablet whilst on holiday a revert to the previous consensus seemed appropriate. It would be fine with an editor who would talk and I really resent your bad faith accusation Bryan. Pinging EdJohnston, Kudpung and Tiderolls as it seems the only way to have any sort of discussion is when an admin is watching. WCM_email 16:10, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

Good afternoon, Wee Curry Monster. I do not assert anything. As Bryan Henderson (giraffedata) noted, I am simply trying to ensure this article reflects sources provided and is written in proper English. FYI, some children and adolescents may (rather embarrassingly) use "ke" instead of "que" when using social media in all Spanish-speaking countries, it most certainly is not a linguistic feature of LLanito, as can be seen in | this source which contains an extract written in Llanito from the syndicated column "Calentita" of Gibraltarian magazine Panorama. As you will note proper spelling of "que" and all other words are used consistently. If a source can be provided supporting your use of alternative spelling in written llanito publications, I will apologize for my mistake and move on. Until then, you are very much engaging in what you wrongly accuse others of. Regards. Asilah1981 (talk) 16:47, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

The accusation was meant to be prejudice, not bad faith. I seem to be the only one commenting so far who is not familiar with the writers of the two versions of the text or the history of it, and I'm suggesting that if you just look at this simple rewording facially, you don't see an opinion being pushed or new uncited facts being added. And you definitely don't see pushing of a view on the sovereignty issue. You have to know you're looking for it to find all that. Posting on the talk page after the reversion was good, but when that post just says, "the edit was wrong because it's just editor X doing what editor X does and we all know that's wrong", it's not really helpful. Helpful would be to explain specifically how the new words are less accurate than the old ones. I'm still wondering.

And on the issue of circumstances (holiday, etc.) making it difficult to do all this, I'd say that means you should defer to other editors until you're able to participate fully. The sky won't fall if the article is imperfect for a week or two. Bryan Henderson (giraffedata) (talk) 00:03, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

Oh dear.

User is pushing his view that Llanito is simply and nothing more than a minor variety of a single dialect of Spanish. In doing so, he reaches the point of contradiction.

The edit claims that Llanito has "unique loanwords". Except it doesn't. In fact, "unique loanwords" is an oxymoron. If the words are unique then they are not loanwords. If they are loanwords they are not unique.

Another. Either this English-based content of Llanito is borrowed or it is code switching. It cannot be both. If it is borrowed, then that would put Llanito far outside the mainstream of Spanish dialects. The differences between Llanito and any standard Spanish dialect you choose to name are far larger than between any two conventional Spanish dialects. In this context, the idea that Llanito is a dialect of Spanish at all is at best debatable. If, on the other hand, it is code-switching then it is not credible to call Llanito Spanish at all, because it's defined as a code-switching mixture between Spanish and English.

We've seen in previous discussions sources that suggest that the claim that Llanito is unambiguously a Spanish dialect is not as clear-cut as Asilah wants it to be. There may not be much actual dispute - linguists for the most part prefer to describe speech patterns than categorise them arbitrarily - but that doesn't mean that we can impose one side or the other.

In terms of the spellings, this - and the insistence that Llanito can only be a dialect of Spanish, no matter what the differences - reinforces another point that was suspected before: that Asilah is editing in such a way as to attempt to downplay the differences between Gibraltar and Spain, implying that the Gibraltarians are all nearly Spanish really, hence implications for the sovereignty dispute.

Of course we've been here before with this editor. We know from the last mess that for Asilah WP:AGF is the last resort, not the first, and we know that the only way to get him to actually give it a try is to get the article protected long term at the point it was at before he edited. Might as well save some time and go there now? Kahastok talk 19:12, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

Kahastok As mentioned by another editor above, I am simply providing a copy-edit of the source provided.. I'm not going to play this game of name-calling and casting aspersions. If you are going to revert the "dialogue" please provide sources to support your edits i.e. (funky made-up spelling of llanito words). They are unsourced and directly contradict a Gibraltarian source provided. I continue to assume good faith.

As recommended above, edit/improve specific elements of this article you disagree with (ideally sourced) rather than block revert while leaving a rant on the talk page about my alleged intentions. Thank you. Asilah1981 (talk) 19:22, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

Kahastok I just realized you are confused over the sentence since you do not speak or understand Yanito (something understandable). Llanito has 1) Code-switching and 2) Anglicisms: That is words which are of English origin which are UNIQUE to Llanito. Examples are many: Aceite gastor (Castor oil), Afolinarse (fall in), Carne Combí (corned meat), cuécaro (Quaker Oats), denticá (ID card, enguachinao (wet), pipería (plumbing) and the very well known "liquirbá" which is an anglicism for liquorice. There are hundreds of words like this, these are "anglicisms" and a totally different concept to code-switching, where Gibraltarians switch to proper Standard English. I hope this cleared this up for you and we don't start off on a wrong foot imagining secret agendas. Please assume good faith and do not automatically revert on a subject which you clearly know next to nothing about. Ask. Question. Research. Then consider editing. NEVER block revert on the basis of your dislike for an editor. Asilah1981 (talk) 19:41, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

I disagree, Levey does indeed refer to loan words from other languages. I'm not confused that is what the source says. I never said one one word about secret agendas I pointed out elements of you edit that were just WRONG! Now if you could address that in talk and just DISCUSS it for once, without allegations about other edits,or arguing from authority that only you are right it would be appreciated. Believe it or not it ain't about you and the constant claims of persecution are fucking boring me to tears. WCM_email 21:05, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

You demand I assume good faith and then say "NEVER block revert on the basis of your dislike for an editor" - a statement that manifestly fails to assume good faith.

Do we really have to go through all the crap we went through last time before you start assuming good faith yourself? My revert was not related to my opinions of you personally, it was because I disagreed with your edit, as I explained in some detail. Your insistence on your own perfection and others' malice is why our discussion was so difficult last time and why this discussion is going the same way. Kahastok talk 21:22, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

I'm not letting you drag me into this again. I have corrected the unsourced fantasy spelling of the dialogue and have aligned it with spelling of sample published Llanito text | here. Please do not revert unless you have a source backing your alternate spelling. Thank you. Asilah1981 (talk) 12:24, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

The page you've linked to unsurprisingly is not available. Is this another case of you claiming a cite that can't be seen supports you as we've seen previously with your edits? Here is a suggestion, why don't you look at some Llanito websites and report back how it's generally written. Are you prepared to do that? Aside from that I probably wouldn't revert again, the changes you made didn't make any improvement but I guess ego wise it Is important for some to be seen to have won the edit war. But changing how Llanito is written to RAE spelling, when the RAE doesn't regulate the language is decidedly pointy. WCM_email 13:31, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Wee Curry Monster You are on holiday and your electronic device is no doubt playing up on you. The source is available to the rest of us. I am not changing to RAE spelling, I am changing to the spelling of the Yanito text in "Calentita" column in Gibraltar's Panorama magazine - as provided in p89 and 90 of Johannes Kramer's book on the subject available to all of us online. (Note, for example, I exclude accents from the Yanito text). I should add that what you are doing is a (no doubt unintended) insult to Gibraltarians, misrepresenting their cultural level. Your version of yanito is basically an exact copy of how deeply uncultured millenials and "chavs" write all over Spain and Latin America, particularly online. Some are just hopelessly moronic spelling mistakes like "allé" for "ayer". On this basis you are attempting to creolize Llanito vernacular?? All the more, since a consensus is standing in the talk page that Llanito is not a creole since 2006. Lets stick to sources please. You know I'm right on this as I have been in all of our prior disputes. If the above source is not enought here you will find dozens of other published texts in Llanito; http://www.panorama.gi/menu.htm. Asilah1981 (talk) 15:01, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Right, I infer from that you are well aware of how Llanito is actually written but don't care. What we both know is you're not right but it's now clear to me your editors not about improving Wikipedia's coverage of the topic. Later. WCM_email 16:57, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Removal of vocabulary section Comment

I've removed the vocabulary section. There is in fact no official standard for spelling Llanito, its generally written phonetically when its put into a written form eg Ke for the Spanish Que. However, I can see there being an interminable argument about sourcing this, with an unrepresentative form being imposed as one editor can source what he believes to be correct from an academic work (although that author makes it plain authentic texts in Llanito are not available and he has used his own form). I feel it would be better not to have it, than to have a section which is wrong. WCM_email 12:32, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Hi everyone, I tried getting involved in this article a while back but no one responded sadly. It seemed you were all too self-involved with your edit warring. Since then I've lost my password and have been obliged to create a new account (see Llanimami above). I don't like getting involved in disputes but, tbh Wee Curry Monster, isn't Panorama a good enough authentic text in Yanito for you? It's online, its a local publication and all of us Gibs above a certain age have been reading Calentita for years. I can't think of any other actual text available at the mo. I certainly doubt that our Llanito dictionaries (there are a few) are written phonetically as you seem to imply and I assure you "ke" is not a distinguishing feature of our language, although it is true we are more relaxed about spelling. Anyways, I have a couple of dictionaries at home, so if you if you guys agree I can start the section from scratch. I hope other editors will collaborate. Best regards, Llanimami2 (talk) 11:23, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

I have added a YouTube link to Pepe's Pot as a reference which was required since 2009. Llanimami2 (talk) 13:16, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

Sigh, thanks for the assumption of WP:AGF, I would prefer to simply discuss matters when there is a dispute. Sadly too often it seems that people's egos rather than improving content and they have to edit war to get their way. You might want to look at who put that dictionary in the first time; they were Gibraltarian. Do what you like, if you genuinely wish to improve the article you'll have no problem from me. WCM_email 14:34, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

I'm trying to think of any word in Llanito of Haketia, Hebrew, Maltese origin... Any Yani que me pueda ayudar? Me da que apenas se usan nowadays...Llanimami2 (talk) 20:18, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

"Floosh" (money), which I understand is of Maltese origin. RedCoat10 (talk) 15:18, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

RedCoat10 I remember there was a Llanito word for money derived from old hebrew which is no longer in usage in modern Hebrew. Could you find out what it is, so we may add it? Floosh is indeed Maltese, although it is a cognate of Arabic floos.Asilah1981 (talk) 04:40, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Chachi?

As far as I know, the word chachi in Spanish comes from the Romani word Chachipén. Not sure if Llanito is the origin of this word. Napia is indeed related to Lord Napier (although a Romani origin is also proposed) but whether this came through Gibraltar or in the context of the Peninsular war is also debatable. But I agree that most of Llanito lexicon is also used in la Línea de la Concepción and that dialect has very much been influenced by Llanito. Asilah1981 (talk) 18:16, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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English words with an Andalusian flavour.

I have removed:

battery, bateria; a policeman is known as la parma,

batería is a standard Spanish term for some kinds of batteries (cars, phones) and an common Anglicism for others (remotes). It is not specifically Llanito or Andalusian. La parma is a Andalusian rhotacist pronunciation of Spanish slang la pasma. I don't know the etymology but it is not English. --Error (talk) 12:23, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

I think it was not necessary to remove this. While batería is indeed a Spanish word, the llanito usage is different. In Spanish you have a clear distinction between baterias (batteries), and pilas (cells). In English we often call a AA battery a battery even though it only contains one cell. In Spanish most people make the distinction, and thus most small "batteries" are referred to as pilas. In Llanito the word is Spanish, but the usage is more akin to the English, thus no one in Gibraltar will call any type of battery a pila, but always a battery. 178.208.199.177 (talk) 09:47, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

llamar p'atrás

wikt:call back would be "llamar de nuevo", not "devolver la llamada". Is it so as well for llamar p'atrás? --Error (talk) 10:07, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

"llamar p'atrás" is equivalent to the English "to call back." Spanish isn't my first language but both "llamar de nuevo" and "devolver la llamada" sound fine to me as standard translations of "to call back," (in English "to return a call" or "to return somebody's call", which is pretty close to "devolver la llamada", also exists) feel free to change it if "llamar de nuevo" sounds better to you. Erinius (talk) 11:29, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

@Erinius:: Suppose Alice calls Bob and Bob can't take the call at the moment. If Alice calls again an hour later, that is llamar de nuevo. If Bob calls Alice an hour later, that is devolver la llamada. If I read wikt:call back correctly, "To telephone someone again at a more convenient time" means Alice calls Bob. I am not sure what llamar p'atrás means. Is Wiktionary wrong? --Error (talk) 11:36, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

@Error: To me, "call back" usually means Bob calling Alice, so I guess it's more like "returning a call" or devolver la llamada, but I believe it can mean both. SpanishDict gives both "call again"/volver a llamar (or llamar de nuevo) and "return a call" devolver la llamada, while WordReference just gives devolver la llamada.

Lipski and Otheguy give llamar para atrás as the equivalent of the English "to call back" but they don't specify an equivalent in non-contact, standard Spanish. Otheguy gives the sentence, Le dije a Carlos que me llamara para atrás, which sounds more like an equivalent of devolver la llamada. devolver la llamada was in the article before my edits, and it seems correct. I guess wiktionary's wrong. I'd say you can add llamar de nuevo or volver a llamar but you should keep devolver la llamada. Maybe it would be best to have both? Erinius (talk) 16:49, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

@Erinius: In my non-native English, I'd understand "to return a call", but Wiktionary left me puzzled. The references you provided say that both meanings are possible. I guess devolver la llamada is right in this case. But I cannot exclude other senses if people with better command of English and Llanito favor them. I will leave the current redaction. --Error (talk) 08:40, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

@Error: Sounds good. Erinius (talk) 21:41, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Llanito Pronunciation

I'm considering removing the "citation needed" signs from the pronunciation guides. If anyone objects to that, feel free to respond here and we'll try to arrive at a consensus. I just feel that the Spanish pronunciation is pretty unambiguous. Erinius (talk) 04:45, 2 November 2021 (UTC)