Jump to content

Talk:List of Viking metal bands

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Untitled

[edit]

Could we point out who the prominent ones are?-— Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.107.165.193 (talk) 19:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to remove all the ones that don't have articles and the ones whose article doesn't explicitely say they're viking metal (for example I alreday removed Falconer, which is power metal, not viking metal). The few that will be left will probably be the prominent ones! IronChris | (talk) 19:52, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Merge?

[edit]

I'm hereby suggesting we merge this page with the main page on Viking Metal. Some metal genres, such as Industrial Metal, already have the list of bands within the main page rather than as a separate one, and they have many more than this list. The list of viking metal bands is currently very small and I don't think it justifies an entire page to itself. This list could very easily be incorporated into the main article without making it seem overly long or confusing. Prophaniti 06:05, 5 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. IronChris | (talk) 00:25, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree as well. It's a short list and will not become a long one, at least for many years. Prolog 04:04, 12 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Right, I have gone ahead with the merge since it has now been over a week since the suggestion and there have been 2 agreements, no disagreements. I believe I've cleared up all double redirects (except one that was within the log of discussions on articles to be deleted. This was tagged as not to be altered). Hopefully this shouldn't cause any trouble. Prophaniti 20:02, 13 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Un-Merged!

[edit]

I decided to recreate this list of viking metal bands because I feel the original reason for the merge above is rather flimsy and quite irrelevant now. There is a list of industrial metal bands now so why not one for Viking metal bands too? At the very least, this will help to avoid more erroneous additions of (non-folk) viking metal bands to the list of folk metal bands. There's no minimum amount of entries that a list must have on wikipedia and if you were to take a look at some of the featured lists in the past, you'll find lists that contain a relatively small number of entries. See for instance the list of calypso-like genres with its 14 entries (but one hell of a long lead section). Since I just spent a few hours adding references to the list of folk metal bands, you can forgive me if I'm too tired to add every single viking metal band that has an article on wikipedia onto this list of viking metal band. Feel free to do so but only if you are willing to look up the references. --Bardin (talk) 12:36, 13 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

FFinntroll

[edit]

Is Finntroll not counted as Viking Metal?JackorKnave (talk) 17:39, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nah, that'd be folk metal. Folk metal and Viking metal do have overlaps and there are some bands that are both, but Finntroll is purely folk/ black metal. Blizzard Beast $ODIN$ 19:26, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Aah. Nevermind then.JackorKnave (talk) 15:37, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Finntroll is viking metal-esque (esp. recently) and not too folky anymore either, but I certainly wouldn`t say they are purely folk black metal (black folk metal?). So I have added them, so there!> (No doubt they will be removed again but please don`t with out maybe some kind of voting system? (new to this whole wiki editing thing - be kind). I added Korpiklaani too, hopefully this ref will stand. (They are defo viking metalesque!Handsforeyes (talk) 14:20, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Told ya, they where removed. The reason? "Where does it state in the references they are exclusively viking metal?". I could add references for all the removed bands to say that they are exclusively viking metal. Viking metal is metal from viking countries or viking decendancy, with viking themes somewhere along the way. Just because someone arbitrarily says whether a band is or isn`t viking metal doesn`t make it so, its the content of the band as a whole that dictates whether or not it may be classed as viking metal. So if I was to establish a web site reviewing bands and I reviewed `Take That`s latest album and said it was viking metal, would that suffice? Would that make take that viking metal? I don`t think so, although it seems to be enough for some of you/wiki! But I think i also realise the limitations of what must be allowed to be included within the pages of wiki. After doing a bit more reading through wiki guidelines I see why some editing exclusions seem so anal, but are necessary - if a bit nonsensical at times. Handsforeyes (talk) 09:13, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Falkenbach is from Germany, not Iceland!

[edit]

Falkenbach is from Germany, not Iceland! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.203.248.250 (talk) 14:37, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've changed it. Feel free to correct any other errors you come across. --Bardin (talk) 15:03, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Leaves' Eyes

[edit]

Why on earth is Leaves' Eyes on this list?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.92.119.114 (talk) 17:36, 14 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If you have an objection please state why.Curb Chain (talk) 07:10, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Manowar

[edit]

What about Manowar? Gods of War especially and many other albums contain songs with Viking themes.--E tac (talk) 18:08, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would have thought that to be in the viking metal category, the band would have to come from a viking country also (or at least have members from or claim ancestry). I suppose if man-o-war was from old "new world viking country" they may possibly be able to lay claim to the sub-genre. This in my mind applies to "true" viking metal anyway!?Handsforeyes (talk) 14:26, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think country of origin is really relevent; it's a musical genre, not a passport. After all, bands playing "Celtic" (usually Irish or Scottish) music exist all over the world. That said, I really wouldn't think of Manowar as Viking Metal band. They'd probably call themselves True Metal or something. Certainly it seems odd to think of them as being in the same genre as bands like Ensiferum and Amon Amarth. Speaking of AA, I'm sure I read an interview with the singer saying he didn't think of AA as Viking Metal but rather as a death metal band who happen to sing about Vikings. - Tulloch Gorum from Lesmahagow. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.81.255.25 (talk) 22:24, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Simple. Manowar do not play Viking Metal music. Viking Metal is a fusion between Black Metal and Nordic Folk Metal. Since Manowar have none of these, they are not Viking Metal. Norse themed lyrics do not make Viking Metal, its is a MUSIC GENRE, not a LYRICAL THEME. It also doesnt matter whether they come from Scandinavia or what ancestry they have, you could have a Viking Metal band from Botswana if you wanted to, as long as they play the musical style of Viking Metal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.186.150 (talk) 06:11, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Nebelhorn?

[edit]

I'm quite shure Nebelhorn is Viking metal, or am I mistaken (they're not on the list)65.78.99.61 (talk) 22:15, 26 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

They definitely are after I saw their Metal-Archives - "with armor and all" though they don't have an article. −₪ÇɨгcaғucɨҲ₪ kaiden 05:39, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Korpiklaani

[edit]

Korpiklaani where removed here for citing reference from an unreliable source (it was also added and removed again later for reasons that it was not exclusively stated in the reference that they are viking metal). How then is that same source acceptable for Solstafir?


  1. 22:09, 31 August 2008 CircafuciX (Talk | contribs) (11,668 bytes) (Undid revision 235428515 by Nefariousopus (talk) unreliable source (see WP:RS) get a new one please) (undo)
  2. 19:29, 31 August 2008 Nefariousopus (Talk | contribs) m (11,988 bytes) (Added Korpiklaani) (undo) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Handsforeyes (talk • contribs) Ooops, sorry, Handsforeyes (talk) 22:14, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm... I don't think Korpiklaani should be in there. They don't sound "epic", and they don't sing about raiding, or Thor and the gang. They're surely rather Folk Metal than Viking Metal. - Tulloch Gorum from Lesmahagow. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.81.255.25 (talk) 22:20, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Korpiklaani are not Viking Metal, they play traditional Finnish Folk Metal, where as Viking Metal is a fusion between Black Metal and Scandinavian Folk Metal. (Finnish is not Scandinavian). Since Korpiklaani do not possess any Black Metal or Scandinavian Folk elements, (and their lyrics are based off the Finns and Samis, not Vikings), they are not a Viking Metal band at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.186.150 (talk) 07:49, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Amon Amarth

[edit]

Amon Amarth- Lyrics about vikings in a melodic death context does not in itself constitute viking metal

This very point was discussed at length a while back, and consensus has been established to include Amon Amarth in this list because they are identified as "Viking metal" in multiple sources. We go on what exists in the sources, and making our own judgment calls contrary to WP:Reliable sources constitutes WP:Original research. I don't necessarily have a problem with it being questioned, since the discussion has since fallen by the wayside, but please do not remove sourced material without verifying that consensus supports the change. Wilhelm_meis (talk) 14:05, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Most if not all sources claiming they are viking metal focus clearly on the viking-inspired lyrics. Has it not been well established that viking metal has a large bit of folk involved? I am not questioning if the sources are incorrect, but if their definition of viking metal and the one portrayed on Wiki is the same. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.121.235.129 (talk) 13:15, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would question if the sources are correct... The sound of AA is not at all reminiscent of other Viking Metal bands. They merely theme their lyrics on vikings. They should not be on the list. Many sources also call Lordi a Death Metal band, which is absolutely ludicrious. Remove Amon Amarth from this list, please. TheEsb (talk) 12:30, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Just checked the 3 "sources" that would confirm Amon Amarth is Viking Metal. The first one took me nowhere, so I can't speak for it. The second and third, both called Amon Amarth "Viking metallers". I know it could be dubbed interpretation, but to me it really felt natural that they call these "Metallers" "viking" because of their looks and scandinavian origins. Besides, both sources don't even go on to explain why they call them "Viking metallers" so it is certainly not as certain a source as it should be. I can't speak for the first source though; it led me to the same Viking Metal Bands page, so maybe that one is a little more reliable. Otherwise, I highly doubt Amon Amarth should be called Viking Metal (besides the fact that, as you can see in the Amon Amarth page, the vocalist himself has said they are "Death Metal" and that "some people called them viking metal" (or something to that effect). Anyway, it's there for you people to judge, already expressed my point. (And though what I think doesn't matter here, encyclopedia and all, but pretty much only the lyrical content of the Viking Metal definition fits Amon Amarth, because all of the musical aspects of that "genre" are clearly outside what Amon Amarth is). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.107.46.34 (talk) 00:22, 27 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Amon Amarth should not be on this list. Johan Hegg himself has stated in an interview with the Metal Web that they play death metal, not viking metal, and that very line from the interview is cited on Amon Amarth's own wikipedia page, aswell as another quote from the band's biography where Hegg states that the band does not associate themselves with viking metal, precisely because he associates that genre with norwegian black metal. "In our mind [this term is] very much associated with bands that come out of Norway who are playing a very black metal oriented music and that’s not what we play. Sure, we have the same inspirations when it comes to the lyrical themes but musically we’re a completely different kind of metal so it’s tricky" is the quote from Johan Hegg used on the wikipedia page on Amon Amarth, so we've at the very least got conflicting entries where one suggests it's not viking metal but it is on the list. I would say the band's own comments and the definition of viking metal outweight other sources' misidentification and Amon Amarth should be removed from this list. 83.85.115.132 (talk) 13:27, 23 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There is an ongoing discussion on this topic at Talk:Amon Amarth#Consensus on Viking Metal or not. Please join in the discussion there. Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 16:20, 23 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Amon Amarth are not Viking Metal, they are Melodic Death Metal. Norse themed lyrics does not make a band Viking Metal. There is a musical description of Viking Metal, which is Scandinavian Folk/Black Metal, since Amon Amarth have none of these traits, they are not Viking Metal. If we were to put in all the bands with Viking lyrics, then we would have to put in Manowar, Stormwarrior and Crystal Eyes, and they are not Viking Metal at all.

Please Add

[edit]

ANDRAS BAL-SAGOTH BATHORY BELENOS COR SCORPII DORNENREICH DRUDKH ENSLAVED EQUILIBRIUM FALKENBACH: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrQtIeXN3sw
FINNTROLL FOLKEARTH FYRDUNG GERNOTSHAGEN GRAVELAND: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_ONQDtc45w&feature=related
HADES HALGADOM HELHEIM HORN KAMPFAR LEMURIA MANEGARM MENHIR MOONSORROW: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LAbZR65Lnw
MYRKGRAV MYTHOTYN ODROERIR PAGAN REIGN RADIGOST RAVENTHRONE RIGER SKYFORGER SLAVLAND SVARGA TAUNUSHEIM TEMNOZOR THRUDVANGAR THYRFING TRIMONIUM TURISAS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8EDgekt6M0
VARG
VINTERSORG
WAYLANDER
WINDIR: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuKITY3_5bU&feature=related
WOLFCHANT —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.119.46.88 (talk) 01:41, 15 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry but most of the bands you've listed don't have an article which is a requirement for these lists. Also, a few are already on here and some are merely folk metal or not even associated with folk or viking metal... FireCrystal (talk) 03:31, 15 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Even though they don't have an article, it could be nice to have as many different countries represented on the list as possible, and we really ought to create an article for bands such as Ashen Light from Russia , Berserk from Spain, Ha Lela from Lithuania, Hvangur from Russia, Nidhug from Denmark, Odroerir, Pagan Reign from Russia, Solhverv from Denmark and Ulytau from Kazakhstan. TheEsb (talk) 15:23, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. That's what we should strive for such as the other metal lists show. If you wish to add them here then make sure they are reliably sourced and make sure the band passes WP:NBAND before you do so. FireCrystal (talk) 10:04, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Waylander are Celtic, not Viking. 83.67.39.175 (talk) 01:27, 16 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WP:FLAG

[edit]

Just to remind people that unless a reason other than "I think it looks better", including flagicons in this list contravenes WP:FLAG as discussed here. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 11:06, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Which bands included?

[edit]

I have a fairly straightforward question: Does this list include bands that have played viking metal at some point in the past, or only bands that play viking metal frequently? Thanks, --3family6 12:41, 24 November 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 3family6 (talk • contribs)

Drottnar

[edit]

In regard to integrity of the source for Drottnar, it is a web version of a print magazine review. The publisher qualifies as a reliable source, see Cross Rhythms.--3family6 17:55, 2 December 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 3family6 (talk • contribs)

Yes, you are quite correct. Not one I'd come across but fine. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 18:24, 2 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Politics

[edit]

How is politics relevant to this list? Take a look at WP:FLAGICON. This is just a permutation on flags, without actually using them, they are identifying the origin of the band or the origin of the majority band members, which isn't clear, because some bands have members from many different polities, in this case, using countries. How is this a defining characteristic of these bands? How is it a characteristic they have in common, if there is no standard/inclusion criteria?Curb Chain (talk) 08:39, 1 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Heavy Load

[edit]

I've removed Heavy Load from the list of Viking metal bands, Heavy Load is a Traditional Heavy Metal band that occasionally have Viking-themed lyrical content, the distinction is a big one. Verkalorm (talk) 22:13, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That distinction is subjective and not how wikipedia works.Curb Chain (talk) 23:42, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That distinction is not subjective. Heavy Load play traditional Heavy Metal, and do not possess any of the objective musical traits of Viking Metal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.186.150 (talk) 09:00, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Stop adding bands that do not play Viking Metal...

[edit]

I have been removing bands that have failed to be proven to play Viking Metal and contradict the sourced definition of Viking Metal (Black Metal with influence from Nordic Folk music). I am trying to prevent the page being vandalized.

This is nothing to do with my own personal definition of Viking Metal, i am going by the sourced definition... in the opening paragraph of the Viking Metal page...

The 'sources' for Amon Amarth and Unleashed do not prove they play Viking Metal. Look over them. These bands are lazily labelled viking metal regarding lyrical content, where as Viking Metal is a musical genre, and musical genres are not defined by lyrical themes, if AA and Unleashed are to be accepted, a source must be provided that AA and Unleashed's musical style contains that of black metal and nordic folk influence, NOT because they have Viking lyrics. Amon Amarth and Unleashed remain Melodic/Death Metal.

A 'source' described Falconer's 'Viking Metal origins', but what wasnt explained is that these origins were actually in a separate band, Mithotyn, This 'source' then stated that Falconer were returning to their origins as Viking Metal.... simply because the lyrics were in Swedish... I am sorry, but changing the language does NOT change the genre. This is like me calling Galneryus 'ninja metal' because their lyrics are in Japanese. Absolutely ridiculous. Falconer remain Folk/Power Metal.

Why the addition of Mortiis continues to plague this page is absolutely beyond ridiculous. Havard Ellefson formed an INDUSTRIAL ROCK/AMBIENT band Mortiis after he grew sick of playing Metal in Emperor. Yes, Mortiis arent even Metal, for a band to be Viking Metal, they must first at least be Metal, let alone Black Metal. This 'source' that somehow finds a way to sneak in the black metal/nordic folk tag into a band that possesses ZERO of these elements is ridiculous, and should not be considered a reliable source. After a decent search, i have found zero other sources that consider Mortiis 'viking metal'. I understand the 'no original research' policy, but surely this does not mean you are not allowed to use basic logic. No one with an understanding of both Viking Metal or Mortiis would label them 'viking metal'. It is simply ignorance.

If a band has not been proven to possess elements of both Black Metal and Nordic Folk Music, they cannot be accepted as a Viking Metal band, as they contradict the sourced definition of the term.

Oh! and blocking someone does not settle this issue. To silence someone does not prove he is wrong, it only proves you fear what he has to say. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.186.150 (talk) 23:06, 7 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism is damaging an article's content either out of hostility or out of amusement. Actual edits, whether ill-informed or not, or even edits made out of bad faith, are not vandalism. Now, to your argument:
First, I think it's more accurate to say that Viking metal is an offshoot from black metal and Nordic folk - it's influenced by both, but has become a distinct genre. Second, the issue is about what do reliable sources say. The question of Amon Amarth being Viking metal is hotly debated, and the band itself does not consider itself Viking metal. However, numerous (and I mean NUMEROUS) sources consider it Viking metal, and it is often given as one of the prime examples of the genre. So, while it certainly doesn't play a style similar to that pioneered by Bathory, the band must be listed if we are going to keep to the English Wikipedia's policy of following reliable sources. As for Unleashed, that one could be debated, as while I've seen some sources calling the group that, it's not as clear. Regarding Armod, the review says that Armod's 2011 album marks a return to the band's Viking metal origins (Mithotyn), which means prior releases did NOT fall under that label.
With Mortiis, the reason it is included because the Allmusic bio states that "the mysterious Mortiis was an indispensable force in the genesis of Norway's epic Viking metal sound." Some reviews clearly identify Mortiis as dark ambient and industrial, yet also label the releases as black metal. I find that rather tenuous, though the influence is there. However, the folk influence I would say is undeniable. So, black metal, probably not, but folk-influenced? Absolutely. Also, the bio indicates that Mortiis contributed to the formation of Viking metal, so the subsequent genre that emerged might not sound the same as the bands that it holds roots in.
Lastly, genres can be rather nebulous concepts, and their sound evolves over time (compare, say, 50s rock n' roll with the rock of the 80s). Critics, journalists, and other media personalities are some of the most important figures in creating genre classifications, so we should defer to them and adjust Wikipedia's content accordingly.--¿3family6 contribs 16:40, 8 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Vandalism or not, it is absolutely ill-informed edits. I am shocked that you know the objective definition of Viking Metal, yet you are happy to add bands that contradict this definition just because some other websites do not understand this definition say so??. Like i have said. NONE of these sources prove that these band's musical style is Viking Metal, the label is too often lazily assigned to bands with viking themed lyrics. There are plenty of reliable sources that will tell you otherwise.
Musical genres do evolve, but Viking Metal has not evolved to be "Black/Norse Folk with a couple of Death Metal bands with viking lyrics". If Amon Amarth and Unleashed are Viking Metal, then all the bands in the same musical style as them must be Viking Metal too, this means Dethklok, Hypocrisy, Kataklysm, Dark Tranquility and almost all Swedish melodeath must be Viking Metal too, as how can multiple bands of the same style logically be labelled different genres?
Because of lyrics??? So Manowar, Stormwarrior, Heavy Load, Saxon, Crystal Eyes, and even Judas Priest, Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden, Crimson Glory, Pantera and Yngwie Malmsteen must be Viking Metal now, as they have all used norse-themed lyrics. Because of language?? Falconer were "sourced" to be Viking Metal because some of their members used to be in Mithotyn, and they sometimes use Swedish lyrics.... *facepalm..... surely even you can see that that is not valid proof and not worth defending. Remove Falconer.
Your "sources" have been debunked. Cut out all the controversy to make this article as accurate as possible, until you can find proper proof that Amon Amarth, Unleashed, Falconer and Mortiis possess strong elements of both Nordic Folk and Black Metal, not just a website that lazily throws in the tag 'viking metal'.
This page is a horrendous mess. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.186.150 (talk) 03:31, 10 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I can't find any other sources calling Falconer Viking meta, so I removed that band. The others are adequately sourced, so they stay. Viking metal has evolved to where it now comes to mean extreme metal with Viking themes. Bands like Unleashed and especially Amon Amarth are also solidly referred to as Viking metal. Manowar and Heavy Load are considered precursors of the Viking metal genre, and there are few sources referring to them as Viking metal because of this.--¿3family6 contribs 14:41, 10 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Again, you have not provided a single source that proves Amon Amarth and Unleashed play Viking Metal music, only some people on a some websites that lazily throw in the 'Viking' tag simply because of lyrical content. Music genres are NOT defined by lyrics, Let me ask you, if Amon Amarth's lyrics were entirely about samurais and ninjas. would anyone ever class them Viking Metal?
Viking Metal is NOT extreme metal with viking themes. Ensiferum dont have Viking lyrics or themes that you think is essential to the genre. Ensiferum's lyrics are based off Finnish legends and the Kalevala, so lets say Viking Metal = Extreme Metal with Viking themes, then Ensiferum are not Viking Metal by your own definition, and you should remove them.
I would also like to let you know that Ensiferum arent Viking Metal musically anyway, neither are Tyr, Turisas or Heidevolk. But i have not been removing them because at least they possess the Nordic Folk element, at least they are "semi-viking", and not worth fussing over. None of them have Black Metal in them, technically, they are not Viking Metal, but much closer to Viking Metal than Amon Amarth and Unleashed, as they do possess some Viking Metal musical elements.
Manowar and Heavy Load were the precursors of viking-themed Metal, not Viking Metal, there is a difference. Viking Metal originated with Bathory in the late 80s - early 90s. Storm, Enslaved and Falkenbach soon followed. Viking Metal would most likely still exist without Manowar and Heavy Load.
Personally, i think a rational debate with many people reasonably discussing a band's musical elements displaying logical, evident controversy is more reliable on defining their genre than an inexperienced or lazy assertion made by one person (your sources). So here: http://rateyourmusic.com/board_message/message_id_is_2178321
Amon Amarth and Unleashed are not Viking Metal, and you know it. I appreciate you removing Falconer, but there is still more work to be done.
Ok, I knew when I wrote "Viking themes" I should've specified more. Viking themes I used as shorthand for what is in the Viking metal article. So, Viking metal is extreme metal with a thematic focus on Vikings, Viking revival, and Finno-Scandinavian pre-Christian traditions and mythological ethos. That better?
I am glad you are willing to discuss this, by the way. I greatly appreciate it.
Unfortunately, rateyourmusic is not a reliable source, and forum threads definitely aren't.
I can supply additional source for Amon Amarth and Unleashed, but I do not have the time right now. Tonight when I get off work I can do so.
Last, I never said that Manowar and Heavy Load were Viking metal, but precursors. That is, they dealt heavily with Viking and mythological themes before Viking metal did so.--¿3family6 contribs 14:51, 11 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, see Talk:Amon Amarth#Consensus on Viking Metal or not for a highly in depth and heavily researched discussion on Amon Amarth being Viking metal, including numerous sources.--¿3family6 contribs 15:07, 11 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Here are additional sources for Unleashed being Viking metal: [1], [2], [3], [4].--¿3family6 contribs 01:13, 12 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You literally just made up your own definition on the spot, not the sourced definition on this website. Do you think you would of added the "Finno-Scandinavian" part if Ensiferum didnt exist? The Finns were very different to the Vikings, it is not right to generalize them into one to avoid having to remove controversy.

But... lyrics dont matter anyway. Ensiferum would be Viking Metal if they kept the same lyrics, and added Bathory-esque Black Metal influence, then they would be Viking Metal, as Viking Metal is a music genre not a lyrical theme. By your own logic, any band that uses satanic lyrics is a Black Metal band.

I think the key thing you need to learn is that there is a difference between Viking Metal and Viking-themed Metal.

But anyway, lets say the Viking Metal genre is "extreme metal with a thematic focus on Vikings, Viking revival, and Finno-Scandinavian pre-Christian traditions and mythological ethos"... if by 'extreme metal' you mean the heavier subgenres Black and Death, then you must remove Heidevolk, Turisas and Tyr, as they are simply Folk Metal, nothing 'extreme' about their music, and they contradict your definition you molded to include AA and Unleashed.

But at least they possess nordic folk, at least they are partly Viking Metal. (unlike Amon Amarth and Unleashed, who do not fucking play viking metal at all. End of story. No matter what MTV News or other websites lazily label them regarding lyrical themes rather than musical content.)

I specified Finno-Scandinavian pre-Christian traditions because many bands are from Finland, that is all. I did not specificallt have Ensiferum in mind.--¿3family6 contribs 12:26, 12 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The country that bands are from does not impact the definition of a genre. If a band is from Finland or Sweden, use viking lyrics but play Death Metal, they are not Viking Metal. If a band is from Mongolia, do not use viking lyrics but play a Black Metal/Nordic Folk fusion, they are a Viking Metal band.

As there is a difference between viking metal and viking-themed metal

I understand that 99% of Viking Metal bands use viking or nordic paganism in their lyrical themes, but this does not mean this is part of the definition of the genre. Moonsorrow's music is technically Viking Metal, but they rarely, if at all base their lyrics on Vikings.

Since you obviously want AA and Unleashed to be included on this page, regardless of their actual genre, and since many inexperienced people cannot distinguish 'viking metal' from 'viking themed metal' Here is what i propose: - we have a separate list on this page under a heading along the lines of "list of bands that use frequent viking and nordic pagan themes, but are not part of the viking metal genre". This list would include Amon Amarth, Unleashed, Manowar, Heavy Load etc...

... for accuracy! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.186.150 (talk) 03:05, 13 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Um, a band from Mongolia playing a black metal/folk music fusion without any Viking lyrics is Viking metal? And you say that I don't understand what Viking metal is? That's actually fairly insulting. Please read up on folk metal and pagan metal. The distinguishing feature of Viking metal is the lyrics, though most bands have some distinguishing musical traits. But those traits are more subtle, such as tempo, not just incorporating folk instruments. Moonsorrow would probably be better classified as pagan metal, but, again, we have to go by sources.--¿3family6 contribs 14:28, 13 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]


You misinterpreted my argument, whether it was a purposeful strawman or not, read it again, if a band is from Mongolia and plays Bathory-esque black metal / NORDIC folk, then they are Viking Metal. Lyrics are completely irrelevant, There are plenty of bands on this list that do not use viking themed lyrics, Viking Metal doesnt even need vocals for it to be Viking Metal, as it is a music genre, not a lyrical theme... But lets say that lyrics are essential... where are the viking themed lyrics in your 'viking metal band' Mortiis?


You absolutely do not understand Viking Metal, i am not trying to be offensive, but you really need to learn the difference between viking metal and viking themed metal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.186.150 (talk) 02:50, 14 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for the misinterpretation, though I think most Viking metal purists would still disagree with you about a Mongolian band playing Viking metal, unless those Mongolians had Viking descent. I freely admit that I don't listen to most of the bands on this list. The only one's which I listen to regularly are Drottnar, which moved away from the Viking style after their initial releases, and Slechtvalk. I do, however, understand the difference between Viking-themed metal and Viking metal. However, while there is a place for editors to evaluate the legitimacy of source material on Wikipedia, we need to let the sources shape our opinion, not the other way around.--¿3family6 contribs 15:58, 14 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]


Music genres are not defined by lyrics, and especially not nationalities and ethnicities. The band Whispered are from Finland but play Japanese Folk Metal, Skiltron from Argentina play Scottish bagpipe Metal. If a band from Mongolia possesses all the musical elements of Black Metal, but does not have satanic lyrics, they are still Black Metal, if a band from Mongolia possesses all the musical elements of Viking Metal, but do not use viking lyrics, they are still Viking Metal. While it is true that 90% of Viking Metal bands are Nordic or of Nordic descent, this does not mean it is essential to the genre.

What if Amon Amarth were from Ethiopia? what if they were Ethiopian ethnically but still stayed the exact same style and lyrics as they do now, would you or anyone categorize them as Viking Metal? I doubt it, then they would simply be accepted as a melodic death metal band with viking lyrics, what if you removed any viking related imagery on their album covers, would anyone ever call them Viking Metal?..... If you can change a band's music genre by changing something non-musical about them, what does that say about your definition of Viking Metal? It is very flawed.

A genre should stay the same if you close your eyes and change the lyrics, if closing your eyes or changing the lyrics changes your definition of a genre, then it is not an actual definition of a music genre.


This debunks the credibility of 'sources' that a label band's music style regarding lyrics, imagery or ethnicity, and when you have no valid sources, you must resort to logic^ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.186.150 (talk) 06:24, 15 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]


So... since Amon Amarth and Unleashed do not have any proper sources proving that their music is viking metal, they should logically be removed... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.186.150 (talk) 03:06, 17 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Plenty of genres are considered separate only because of lyrics - Christian rock and metal, gangsta rap, political hip hop, even black metal when it first started. All you are doing at this point is restating the points you made earlier without addressing my arguments - folk metal and pagan metal also mix folk with heavy metal. Even if it's Nordic folk. You have not provided ANY actual reliable sources that say that Viking metal is purely a musical style independent of the lyrical content and themes. And I have encountered plenty of sources that say the contrary, that Viking metal is metal about Vikings and related mythology and culture. Every single source I've encountered that talks about Viking metal describes it as such. So you need to supply some VERY strong sources to the contrary, and even then, all that will do is establish that there is controversy over what exactly Viking metal is, which would mean that there is even more reason to keep disputed artists on this list.--¿3family6 contribs 16:22, 17 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]


You already have the sources on the main Viking Metal page clearly explaining to you that Viking Metal is "slow black metal with influences from Nordic folk music". Stop ignoring them just so you can assert your own definition to include bands that you (and only you) think are viking metal, and refuse to accept otherwise because of personal incredulity.


And please, do not tell me that you seriously think "christian rock" or "christian metal" are music genres. Sure Christian Metal exists, but it is a movement, not a genre, like NWOBHM, there is no set musical definition, only lyrical and non-musical themes that connect bands together. If it were a music genre, it would have its own clear musical traits that distinguishes itself from regular all other metal.

Whispered might as well be "Samurai Metal", Kalmah might as well be "Swamp Metal", Running Wild might as well be "Pirate Metal", Sabaton might as well me "World War Metal", Manowar might as well be "Metal Metal"... you get the point. Genres are not based off lyrical themes, rather, certain genres commonly use certain lyrical themes, but these are not essential to the genre.

Not all Black Metal is satanic, not all Death Metal is about gore, not all Power Metal is about fantasy, not all Viking Metal is about vikings...

But... if you think viking lyrics are so essential to Viking Metal, then why have you included Mortiis on this list???


Please stop ignoring this, address my points. Its obvious you have no idea what you are talking about, but at least admit it, otherwise i will simply remove the bands that you have not proven to play viking metal music. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.186.150 (talk) 04:57, 22 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I already addressed your points - you aren't making any new argument. I don't care if you are the one with the last word - I don't want a perpetual argument going on here. There has been no consensus either way, so unless/until some other editors besides you and me comment, there has been zero headway made. If, through a discussion with multiple editors, we all decide that the best way to represent the over-all source material would be to remove some artists, than some artists might be removed. I can solicit for comments from other editors, if you want.--¿3family6 contribs 14:44, 22 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]


You can try to distract all you like, but eventually the bands that you have not been proven to play Viking Metal will be removed, if it is not by me then it will be by another logical person, it will happen. So we might as well get it over with now.

But if you really want Amon Amarth, Unleashed and Mortiis to be on this list, you must prove that their music fits the sourced definition. You haven't done so yet. Its how Wikipedia works. Its not that hard to get your head around.

Otherwise you will simply remain a plague to Wikipedia's attempt at accuracy, and completely ignorant on how music genres work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.186.150 (talk) 07:47, 23 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have can provide sources that show that Amon Amarth and Unleashed are Viking metal. With Amon Amarth, there are at least a dozen sources calling the band that, so there's no way that we can be true to Wikipedia's policy of following reliable sources without including Amon Amarth on this list. Unleashed there is not the same amount of support, but enough that it still warrants it on this list. With Mortiis, I haven't found anything outside the AllMusic reference. If you read the AllMusic reference, it states that the main influence that Mortiis had on Viking metal was when he was in Emperor. On the first album by Mortiis the reviewer noted a Viking-themed sound. The second album has a similar sound, but the third does not, so it was definitely Mortiis's early work, both in Emperor and as a solo artist, that warrants the label. I will try to indicate this on the image gallery.--¿3family6 contribs 15:01, 23 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]



As you already know, a website that says "they are viking metal" does not prove their music is viking metal. You must prove that they are referring to their musical style, not their overall theme.

Eg. Whispered is a melodic death metal band with influence from traditional Japanese folk music and lyrical themes based on samurai and bushido, they are frequently referred to as "Samurai Metal". This label is simply a casual phrase that gives the idea on what the band is like, it is NOT their music genre, as "Samurai Metal" is not a genre, they are melodic death/folk, but "Samurai Metal" is simply a label that suits them, NOT their absolute genre, and not something you would add into a legitimate encyclopedia of facts.

Its also the same for Alestorm. They are simply a Folk Metal band with Pirate themes. They are countlessly labelled as "Pirate Metal" in a casual way, regarding their themes. There is no such thing as "Pirate Metal" as a music genre.

Its exactly the same for bands like Amon Amarth and Unleashed, "Viking Metal" is simply a casual way of labelling the bands because of their themes, NOT an absolute, perfect description of their objective musical style, and certainly NOT a label you would add into a legitimate encyclopedia.

The difference is "Viking Metal" is actually music genre, where as "Samurai Metal" and "Pirate Metal" are not. Amon Amarth are excessively labelled "viking metal" in this casual way that i mentioned, often in blogs or reviews, but they are never listed as "viking metal" regarding their musical genre in a legitimate encyclopedia.

This page is about the Viking Metal music genre, not viking-themed metal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.186.150 (talk) 06:39, 24 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]


So, for these disputed bands you really need to provide solid evidence. NOT simple blogs and reviews that apply casual labels regarding a band's theme as their overall genre. Your proof for Amon Amarth ans Unleashed remains at 0.


Oh, and if you seriously think Mortiis are black metal or nordic folk... then... i dont know what to say, just do some individual research and draw your own, hopefully unbiased conclusion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.186.150 (talk) 06:36, 24 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As I said before, you are repeating the same arguments. I even added information to the photo of Mortiis to indicate that he also was in Emperor, which is where he primarily influenced the creation of Viking metal. I am willing to discuss comprises, but you have put all the burden on me to supply sources, which I have, but have provided none of your own. And what ever sources I provide, you dismiss them as "casual mentions," which some are, but many are not. Take a look again at the following discussion: Talk:Amon Amarth#Consensus on Viking Metal or not. It contains a highly in-depth look at the sources and reasoning for and against Amon Amarth being "Viking metal." Again, you are now merely rehearsing the same argument over and over, so there is no need for me to reply, as I have already replied at least three times. You have not adapted your argument to my counter-arguments nor to the changes I made to the list. So, unless you are willing for some other editors to get involved, we'll have to call this a stalemate and move on to other things.--¿3family6 contribs 14:42, 24 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]


Why change my argument if it has not yet been refuted? I have already debunked the credibility of your sources. You have zero sources that prove Amon Amarth or Unleased are the sourced definition of Viking Metal. Where are the sources that intricately describe their fusion between Bathory-esque Black Metal and nordic folk music? Show me the sources that describe "Viking Metal" as their genre, not just a casual tag given regardingthe band's viking themes, like Samurai and Pirate Metal...

And of course Emperor were a pioneering Viking Metal band, but Mortiis is a different band to Emperor, just because they share one member does not mean they are the same genre. It was the same case for Falconer, they used to be in a Viking Metal band, but not anymore. See how many sources you can find that actually consider Mortiis Viking Metal, even in the casual, non-musical way...

I will keep repeating the same thing, stop ignoring or trying to divert attention, the burden of proof is on you to provide a source that consider's these band's music genre viking metal.


And you will find that there are no legitimate, encyclopedic archive systems that consider these band's genre viking metal:[1]


[2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9]

[10] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.186.150 (talk) 07:26, 25 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  1. ^ http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Amon_Amarth/150
  2. ^ http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Unleashed/359
  3. ^ http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Mortiis/81
  4. ^ http://www.spirit-of-metal.com/groupe-groupe-Amon_Amarth-l-en.html
  5. ^ http://www.spirit-of-metal.com/groupe-groupe-Unleashed_(SWE)-l-en.html
  6. ^ http://www.spirit-of-metal.com/groupe-groupe-Mortiis-l-en.html
  7. ^ http://www.metalstorm.net/bands/band.php?band_id=25&bandname=Amon+Amarth
  8. ^ http://www.metalstorm.net/bands/band.php?band_id=356&bandname=Unleashed
  9. ^ http://www.metalstorm.net/bands/band.php?band_id=528&bandname=Mortiis
  10. ^ https://www.google.co.nz/#q=amon amarth genre

Response, which includes extensive quotes from the Amon Amarth talk

[edit]
First, since the Allmusic bio treats Mortiis as the same as Ellefsen, I am willing to remove Mortiis from the list.
Second, none of the sources you provided are reliable at all (Metal Storm is if the review or post is by a staff member), and even if they were, they don't disprove that Amon Amarth and Unleashed are Viking metal.
Third, the citations for most of the entries on the list do not deal in depth with the style of the artist, they merely just give the "Viking metal" label. The reason you object to Amon Amarth and Unleashed is because those artists sound different than most of the others - that's fine, but that's a different reason than objecting because the sources provided don't go into detail on the style.
Fourth, since you want sources discussing Amon Amarth, I'll give you some excerpts from the discussion on the Amon Amarth talk page:
"These internet sources all call the band Viking metal: [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11]. The following book sources also the identify the band as such do to its lyrical focus: Extreme Metal: Music and Culture on the Edge on pages 106-107 and Medievalisms: Making the Past in the Present on pages 108-109. Finally, we have statement by the band disputing the 'viking metal' claim, similar to those already in the article: [12]. The band's position is very well stated in the article, but the other side, the use of the Viking metal label, needs detailed discussion as well. For the record, the band is listed on the list of Viking metal bands, in case anyone does not know that.--¿3family6 contribs 03:03, 21 June 2013 (UTC)"[reply]
"Second: As the Viking metal article describes, the origins of Viking metal did arise primarily from black metal. However, David W. Marshall in Mass Market Medieval: Essays on the Middle Ages in Popular Culture says Viking metal includes symbolism of black and death metal (pg. 65), and cites both the black and death metal scenes in late 1980's Scandinavia as origins of the genre (ps. 62, 63).--¿3family6 contribs 19:25, 24 June 2013 (UTC)"[reply]
"In 1992 Viking Metal was not an established term (I didn’t use “genre” because Hammerheart etc. do not really sound like e. g. early Enslaved). I can only recall Enslaved and Mock (from Norway, too) using that term, and maybe Quorthon did, too; for Enslaved using the term, there are a few flyers and of course Frost and Nordic Metal – A tribute to Euronymous, and for Mock see Tales of the Macabre, no. 1. For Unleashed see above. --217/83 10:49, 30 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Further note: I already referenced Pugh and Weisl's Medievalisms: Making the Past in the Present, but I'll elaborate further. Not only do the authors identify the band as Viking metal, they seem to consider them a major pioneer in the style: "Bathory was soon joined by other groups such as Amon Amarth and Ensiferum, each offering its unique perspective on a musical genre and mythological world..." (pg. 108-109).--¿3family6 contribs 00:15, 26 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
What Ensiferum play is disputed, too. I never heard anybody claiming Amon Amarth were a major pioneer of anything. All Bathory, Amon Amarth and Ensiferum have in common are their lyrical content and the fact that they play Metal, so there is no common “musical style” here. --217/83 10:49, 30 June 2013 (UTC)"[reply]
"Well, as mentioned above, I would go through a few German magazines. Thanks to Trollhead for telling me that there was a Viking Metal article in Metal Hammer, april 2011, and for this link (Imke von Helden, Department for Scandinavian Studies, Albert-Ludwigs-University, Freiburg, Germany); haven’t read the whole thing myself yet, but here’s a quote: “There are many ideas about what constitutes Viking Metal: descent or music, image, ideology or historical correctness.” Von Helden seems to see Amon Amarth as a Viking Metal band. The Metal Hammer issue contains an interview with Amon Amarth, too, which claims that the Metal scene categorises them as a Death Metal band though Amon Amarth now think the term doesn’t fit them anymore (referring to an earlier interview, see below); the Viking Metal term is not mentioned one single time during that interview. Reference: Anzo Sadoni: Amon Amarth. Der Pakt der Nordmänner. In: Metal Hammer, April 2011, p. 35. It is followed by the Viking Metal article by Robert Müller, who claims that Viking Metal’s history is quickly told: there’s none; quote: „An und für sich ist die Geschichte des VIKING METAL schnell erzählt: Es gibt keine.“ And he points out that stylistically, Amon Amarth don’t fit in. Reference: Robert Müller: Viking Metal. Das Phantom mit dem Hörnerhelm. In: Metal Hammer, April 2011, p. 38. According to Müller, the whole thing started with Manowar’s 1984 album Sign of the Hammer which mostly dealt with Nordic-heroic topics; then not much happened besides a few “bizarre” exceptions like Viking’s Do or Die. Then in 1988 Bathory (after releasing three albums that were important for later Black Metal) adopted such topics on Blood Fire Death, and Johnny Hedlund started Unleashed in 1989; their first album Where No Life Dwells followed in 1991. According to Müller, both albums had the potential to procreate epigones like Sign of the Hammer but Death Metal had its identity crisis and was too left-wing and cosmopolitan for Nordic heritage, and Bathory were too far away from the mainstream. The whole thing really started with the Norwegians, especially Enslaved with Viking topics on their 1993 EP Hordanes Land, whereas later releases and bands like Helheim, Thyrfing and Windir adopted more and more mythological and esoteric views. Then Müller comes to what he considers to be the death blow of Viking Metal as a distinct genre: Helheim’s Jormundgand ended with an ambitious track, but that one was not really compatible with Metal and therefore brought no musical re-definition. According to Müller, all that was left for the crowds was to meld with the emerging Pagan Metal scene: to add Folklore elements, not to care too much about the historical or ideological background, and swing round the drinking-horns. So here’s a scene that’s musically identifiable, but the Viking identity was lost. For that history stuff see p. 38f. According to Müller, Amon Amarth did pretty much the same thing as Manowar and Unleashed: taking great Metal and adding a horned helmet, and stylistically, they are perfectioning what Allegiance (Swedish band, no article here) did on Hymn till Hangagud in 1996; the same year, Amon Amarth released their hardly noticed first EP Sorrow Throughout the Nine Worlds, but for many, they had perfected their style only with The Avenger in 1999. Müller considers the sound to be the heritage of Bolt Thrower. And he points out that he can’t and doesn’t want to name Amon Amarth as one of the founders of Viking Metal since where there are no imitators, a band can only stay unique. There is also a list of five milestones: Sign of the Hammer, Blood Fire Death, Where No Life Dwells, Enslaved’s Eld and Amon Amarth’s With Oden on Our Side which he calls the breakthrough not for a non-existing genre but for its most important band. He also mentions Bolt Thrower’s The IVth Crusade as a sixth milestone not because of its content but as the blueprint for Amon Amarth. For the part on what Amon Amarth did and on the milestones see p. 39.
The Metal Hammer artist profile calls Amon Amarth a Death Metal band, as do e. g. Florian Krapp’s live report (Florian Krapp: Amon Amarth. Siegreiches Silvester. In: Metal Hammer, March 2009, p. 62f.), the Twilight of the Thunder God studio report (Florian Krapp: Amon Amarth. Mit Thors Hilfe. In: Metal Hammer, September 2008, p. 24f.) and the 2008 interview which also references that they don’t see themselves as a Pagan Metal or Viking Metal band (Florian Krapp: Amon Amarth. Götterdämmerung. In: Metal Hammer, October 2008, p. 29.); I didn’t list every live report etc. here, hope it’s okay. In a 1999 interview, Martin Wickler claims Amon Amarth once called themselves a Viking Metal band (Martin Wickler: Amon Amarth. Auf Rache aus. In: Hard Rock & Metal Hammer, October 1999, p. 118.), and in 2004, Johan Hegg called the Viking Death Metal term a very good description of their music (Gunnar Sauermann: Amon Amarth. Fröhlicher Blutrausch. In: Metal Hammer, October 2004, p. 65.). In 2011, Johan Söderberg called Amon Amarth a regular Heavy Metal band with Death Metal vocals, as the new albums shows according to him (Gear of the Dark. Nordischer Metal-Gladiator. In: Metal Hammer. March 2011, p. 113.). They are called Viking Death Metallers (Anzo Sadoni: The Unholy Alliance III. Unzerstörbarer Kult. In: Metal Hammer, January 2009, p. 25.) or even the kings of Viking Death Metal here, Viking Metallers there and Viking Metal giants when they raffle off a few t-shirts (Schatzkiste. In: Metal Hammer. June 2011, p. 14.). All Metal Hammer reviews (hope you don’t actually need a list) list them as Death Metal, except that one listing them as Melodic Death Metal, and Müller calls their style Viking Death Metal.
I need a break now; I will go through the Rock Hard and Legacy sites when I have the time to do so. --217/83 22:03, 30 June 2013 (UTC)"[reply]
The discussion above is about as detailed as you can get. I think what it does establish is that the use of the term "Viking metal" to describe Amon Amarth is controversial, but has a great deal of precedent. Unleashed was not discussed much, but there are multiple sources supporting that band, too.
Since this discussion hasn't gone much of anywhere regarding Amon Amarth and Unleashed, I'm pinging some other editors: Wilhelm meis, Blackmetalbaz, Florian Blaschke, BrainPower3, Asarlaí, ABC paulista. (Sadly, H. 217.83 has stopped editing on Wikipedia for over a year.)--¿3family6 contribs 15:17, 25 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Resumption of discussion

[edit]

That was a fairly accurate history of viking metal, but no where is it proven that Amon Amarth play the sourced definition of the genre. Of course many, many people give AA the term "viking metal", but NEVER as a deliberate, accurate description of their musical style, like i said, Whispered are frequently given the label "Samurai Metal", and Alestorm frequently labelled "Pirate Metal", but never as their objective music style, no one sensible seriously thinks those are their actual genres. Its exactly the same for Amon Amarth and Viking Metal. Most people accept the fact that their is a difference between viking metal and viking themed metal anyway, after a logical explanation, as i have provided.


3family6... please read this next paragraph very carefully:

For these "controversial" bands, you need to do a lot more than simply find a couple of blogs that agree with your thematic label of a band, you need to find a source that breaks down the band's style, and breaks down the genre, and links the two together, NOT a simple blog or review that casually throws in a tag regarding the theme of the band over the musical style. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.186.150 (talk) 06:11, 27 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I DID provide sources that break down the band's style, or rather, User:H. 217.83 did. Take a closer read of this quote: "According to Müller, Amon Amarth did pretty much the same thing as Manowar and Unleashed: taking great Metal and adding a horned helmet, and stylistically, they are perfectioning what Allegiance (Swedish band, no article here) did on Hymn till Hangagud in 1996; the same year, Amon Amarth released their hardly noticed first EP Sorrow Throughout the Nine Worlds, but for many, they had perfected their style only with The Avenger in 1999. Müller considers the sound to be the heritage of Bolt Thrower. And he points out that he can’t and doesn’t want to name Amon Amarth as one of the founders of Viking Metal since where there are no imitators, a band can only stay unique. There is also a list of five milestones: Sign of the Hammer, Blood Fire Death, Where No Life Dwells, Enslaved’s Eld and Amon Amarth’s With Oden on Our Side which he calls the breakthrough not for a non-existing genre but for its most important band. He also mentions Bolt Thrower’s The IVth Crusade as a sixth milestone not because of its content but as the blueprint for Amon Amarth. For the part on what Amon Amarth did and on the milestones see p. 39." Furthermore, [this source], which was given above, mentions Amon Amarth in passing, but deals with Viking metal in some detail, and explains how Amon Amarth fits in with it. This source, also listed above, gives details on the band's Viking metal style as well. For some comparison, this source calls the band "Viking-themed melodic death metal [emphasis added]". However, another review by the same writer discussed the music in detail, and clearly identifies the group as Viking metal. This review, from the same site but by a different critic (who is reliable - About.com critics you need to check credentials for) says "Death metal, Viking metal, whatever you want to call it, these guys are quintessential pros of their trade... ." Clearly, what these sources indicate is that "Viking metal" is not always merely a throwaway term when it comes to Amon Amarth. If you simply disagree with the descriptor used by many, many sources, well, personal opinions don't hold water on Wikipedia. I don't believe that life on Earth arose out of millions of years of death and suffering, but you don't see me getting embroiled in arguments on the Age of the earth and Evolution articles. I respect that Wikipedia follows reliable sources, even if I disagree with the source material.
Now, if this discussion is merely about Amon Amarth, I'd recommend transferring the discussion to the band's talk page, where it will get better exposure.
Last, you, as a Wikipedia user, have been removing the "Viking metal" tag from the Amon Amarth page. I didn't realize that this was you at first, because it was a logged-in user. I apologize for edit warring there. I'm assuming good faith that you have forgotten to log in with your reply above. Know that you should try and make sure that your further comments are signed with your account, as your activities might count as socking otherwise.--¿3family6 contribs 14:10, 27 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]


Viking Metal has been sourced to be slow black metal with nordic folk influence, And you have provided absolutely zero sources that prove Amon Amarth and Unleashed play that musical style. Its not me that disagrees with anything reliably sourced, i have persistently gone with the sourced definition, not subjective or ill-informed opinions from casual blogs and reviews.

I dont have a wikipedia account, i would use it if i did, but i prefer this anonymity.

(and you really shouldnt of mentioned that you are a young-earth creationist, it is irrelevant and you just ruined your chance of coming across as credible and reasonable, as the very fundamentals of the creationist belief system is the rejection of evidence.) But, do not bring this up this tangent again, stay on topic, provide evidence that Amon Amarth and Unleashed play the sourced definition of Viking Metal.

I shouldn't have brought up the YEC issue, you're right, because those stereotypes that I don't base my beliefs on evidence (which is blatantly false) always come into play. My point was merely that I don't try to change Wikipedia's articles to match what I believe is true - I let sources determine the content of articles, and avoid articles where I might lose this perspective.
I apologize for assuming that you were the editor on the Amon Amarth page. It was just that they made the exact same arguments you are making, and even edited one of your talk comments above. So you can see why I assumed it was you.
I did not find sources stating that Unleashed and Amon Amarth are black metal with nordic folk influence. I did, however, find sources explicitly stating that those two bands broadened the musical characteristics of Viking metal to include death metal. In The Metal Void, a publication that came out of the Heavy Metal Fundamentalisms conference, there is an article, "Metal for Nordic Men: Amon Amarth’s Representations of Vikings," in which Florian Heesch clearly and in extensive detail describes Amon Amarth as Viking metal. On page 72 (87 in the PDF nav bar) he writes: "The Swedish band Bathory had a large impact on the spread of interest in Norse topics, starting with the album Blood Fire Death (1988). Bathory also used the appropriate Viking imagery. Musically, Bathory where influential on black metal as well as on death metal bands. While receptions of Norse myths where mostly important in black metal, especially the Norwegian black metal of the early 1990s, and the younger pagan metal, bands as the Swedish Unleashed made the topic fit into death metal before Amon Amarth appeared."
The article "Barbarians and Literature: Viking Metal and its Links to Old Norse Mythology" by Imke von Helden also clearly identifies Amon Amarth as Viking metal, and von Helden writes, in her opening paragraph, that "Viking metal is a comparatively young subgenre of heavy metal music. There are difficulties in defining it, because the definition - apart from certain elements like anthem-like choruses - is not based entirely on musical features and overlaps with other metal genres. The music derives from the also Scandinavian-coined genres of black and death metal. It is furthermore closely linked to another subgenre called pagan metal, which deals mainly with Pagan religions and lies in a broader context where not only Old Norse mythology is dealt with, but also Celtic myths and history, fairy tales and other elements of folklore. Traditional instruments like the violin or flute are used more often in pagan than in Viking metal music." von Helden further writes, on page 258 (273 in the PDF navbar), "During the 1990s, Swedish Amon Amarth added a new dimension to the definition of viking metal by means of their death metal style of music." In a previous article, the paper she composed for her presentation at the Heavy Metal Fundamentalisms conference, von Helden writes "Though most Viking metal bands have a black metal background, Viking metal is defined by topics rather than music. That is why death metal bands like Amon Amarth and Unleashed are often included in the league of Viking metal bands." - Page 34, 45 in the PDF navbar.
Those three sources above (technically two - Heesch and von Helden) I think definitively settle the argument. I wish that I had taken the time to find these sources from the start. Now, you can disagree with the sources, but do so off Wikipedia. If you like, you can even write an academic paper on the subject, which we can cite on Wikipedia, but that will merely establish that there is controversy as to what Viking metal is, a point which several sources have already established.--¿3family6 contribs 15:37, 28 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]


Your source from Heesch never states AA and Unleashed are Viking Metal bands, rather that they are bands that use norse themes...

And here is the flaw in Von Helden's statement, I have already said this before, but i think you ignored it, if Viking Metal now includes Amon Amarth and Unleashed's Death Metal style, then all other bands in the same musical style as them are Viking Metal, as Viking Metal is well established and sourced to now be a musical genre, not a lyrical theme. Kataklysm, Hypocrisy, Dethklok, Dark Tranquility and Kalmah must all be Viking Metal now, as they play the same musical style as AA/Unleashed, how could you give them different labels?

In case you dont know any of those bands, imagine two bands that play the exact same musical style, yet you say they are different music genres. It simply doesnt work.

If Viking Metal is defined by Norse themed lyrics, then by that logic, Manowar, Heavy load, Crystal Eyes, Stormwarrior, Saxon and even Black Sabbath must now be Viking Metal, as they have all used frequent Viking themes, and i challenge you to source their genre as Viking Metal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.186.150 (talk) 05:40, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No, that PASSAGE by Heesch does not explicitly connect Amon Amarth to Viking metal, but, if you read the article, there are other passages, such as this one - "This chapter attempts to fill the gap of knowledge by providing a precise analysis of an exemplary Viking metal song, namely the Swedish death metal band Amon Amarth’s "The Pursuit of Vikings" from the album Fate of Norns (2004)" - that indicate that Viking metal is precisely what he is talking about.
Second, yes, Viking metal is well established and sourced to be a musical genre, but no, it's primary genre characteristic is the lyrical themes (and visual imagery employed by bands in concerts, album covers, photographs, etc.) Genre is not just about the sonic features of the music, but the lyrics and even overall scene. Think of music genre not as just a sound, but a culture or ethnicity (in which the the sound itself is only part of the musical culture). I'm not inventing this analyses, this is a common way of understanding both music and ethnicity in cultural anthropology. Getting back to the topic at hand, the sources discussing Viking metal, such as Florian Heesch and Imke von Helden's respective article in The Metal Void, Aaron Patrick Mulvany's Master's Thesis, "Reawakening Pride Once Lost": Indigeneity and European Folk Metal", Tison Pugh and Angela Jane Weisl's Medievalisms: Making the Past in the Present, and Simon Trafford and Aleks Pluskowski's "Antichrist Superstars: The Vikings in Hard Rock and Heavy Metal" from Mass Market Medieval: Essays on the Middle Ages in Popular Culture, to name a few, all treat Viking metal as a genre primarily based on the lyrical themes and associated imagery, though most acknowledge its roots in Scandinavian black metal and, to a lesser degree, Swedish death metal. I know that Amon Amarth sounds like those bands you mentioned (I have heard Dark Tranquility before, and, briefly, a bit of Kataklysm. You could through in At the Gates and early In Flames, too, as comparisons.) But they don't use Viking themes, at least not nearly as extensively. Manowar sometimes is referred to as Viking metal (see this OC Weekly article), as is Heavy Load, but they are not considered Viking metal. There's a particular phenomenon within metal, with origins attributable to Bathory, that bands like Manowar and Heavy Load are not part of (or maybe now they are, but only because they've been adopted into it). The burden is now on you to provide reliable, non-user generated sources published by a third party, or even something like a Master's thesis that, like Mulvany's, is cited by others and can be supported by statements in other sources, that demonstrate the Viking metal is black metal mixed with folk music (which, incidentally, would probably rule out the Viking metal songs on Bathory's Blood Fire Death, even though those songs are considered the starting point for Viking metal). Even if you provide those source, which I'd genuinely be thrilled to see, they would merely further establish the diversity of opinion on what exactly comprises Viking metal, a diversity which the Viking metal Wikipedia article already establishes. Unless you can discredit the numerous sources that call Amon Amarth and Unleashed Viking metal, including all the academic sources, then, unless we just trash Wikipedia's standards because of your personal opinion, those bands should stay. Unless you have genuine sources to provide, I am done with this discussion, and will not prolong it any further.--¿3family6 contribs 14:45, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]


"Unless you can discredit the numerous sources that call Amon Amarth and Unleashed Viking metal", i literally just did, using simple logic.

If AA and Unleashed are considered Viking Metal due to musical style, then bands similar to them are Viking Metal also. Its just how genres work. This means Dark Tranquility, Kataklysm and yes At The Gates and (old) In Flames are Viking Metal too. There is no way around it.

If AA and Unleashed are considered Viking Metal due to lyrics (even though that is not how music genres work), then every single band with Viking themed lyrics are Viking Metal, regardless of their style are the same genre, but im sorry, music is not defined by lyrics, you can have instrumental Viking Metal, see Falkenbach - Gjallar for an exemplar.

Regarding Blood Fire Death, the Viking Metal style's black metal origin is in the slower, heavier and more atmospheric style, this originated in Blood Fire Death, but there is also subtle acoustic folk and chanting within that album, while little compared to today's evolved style, its still there. Music genres dont evolve into a completely new music genre yet still remain the same label, they simply adapt within their own laws. (a concept i'm sure you are familiar with). If genres do adapt into a different music genre (eg Thrash>Death), then thats it, a new music genre. separate from its predecessor. A band of a different musical style adopting viking themes does not broaden the sonic characteristics of the genre, that was such a facepalmingly terrible addition to the Viking Metal page.


I have provided sources of numerous encyclopedic archive systems, where it is essential for genres to be classed as accurate as possible, by a group of experts in a democratic way, regarding reason and logic. This process has consistently rejected the label 'Viking Metal'for AA and Unleashed, as logic fails to accept bands as a genre if they possess no musical traits of that genre. And a logical conclusion discussed between a group of people beats one man's subjective, casual or misinformed opinion on a blog or review.


"Im done" is an awfully convenient euphemism for "i have nothing". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.186.150 (talk) 08:10, 30 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]


Quick reminder that Amon Amarth and Unleashed's musical style has not yet proven to be viking metal, you can ignore the facts all you like, but the truth will eventually catch up with you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.186.150 (talk) 08:12, 2 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Blackmore's Night

[edit]

It was a big surprise to see Blackmore's Night listed here. Not only they have nothing to do with vikings, they play a medieval/renaissance style music with some Rock elements, but they have nothing to do with Metal! Moreover, I went looking at the reference cited and it only mention that "Blackmore and Night have unwittingly instigated the folk and Viking metal movement and touched even certain brackets of black metal." That doesn't mean that Blackmore's Night music has anything that could describe it as Viking or Black Metal... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maelick (talk • contribs) 10:54, 25 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 5 external links on List of Viking metal bands. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 02:51, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 7 external links on List of Viking metal bands. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 12:34, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

What the hell

[edit]

Ok who put Skeletonwitch, Emperor, Amon Amarth, Unleashed, Burzum and Sabaton as viking metal? By no definitions are any of these viking metal.

Skeletonwitch is black thrash

Amon Amarth is melodic death metal

Burzum is black metal/ambient

Emperor is Black metal

Sabaton is power metal

Unleashed is death metal — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.180.108.131 (talk) 23:56, 8 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

They have been called Viking metal in reliable sources. Especially in the case of Amon Amarth, Unleashed, and Burzum, there are numerous sources attesting to this. Burzum is considered a major pioneer in Viking metal.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 22:18, 10 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The Sword?

[edit]

Why is The Sword on this list? The source material has exactly one reference to "Viking Metal", which the author doesn't qualify or explain at all. It looks like poor journalism and shouldn't be taken as fact. The Sword's own Wikipedia page doesn't mention Viking Metal at all, they're open about being Sabbath-inspired and, well, you only have to listen to their music to confirm they do not play Viking Metal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dirt Jr (talk • contribs) 04:25, 25 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:List_of_Viking_metal_bands&oldid=1210862938"