Talk:Joseph Grimaldi

Comment

Although a celebrated clown, wasn't Grimaldi quite a pessimistic, and even depressive person in his private life? This is just something I heard - I would appreciate it some better informed me on Grimalaldi than me could add any information relevant to this issue. Many thanks, ACEOREVIVED (talk) 20:56, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

No, I've studied Grimaldi and in fact the 'sad clown' tag was attached to him in later years - a late 19th/early 20th century view that clowns must be tragic 'behind the painted smile'. Grimaldi had tragedies in his life, and he was a shy,reserved person by all accounts, but there's no evidence from contemporaries (that I know of) that he was depressive or pessimistic. The story about going to the doctor is ancient, it was told about a Roman comedian I believe! I think the request to be decapitated after death refers to his father, not the great comedian Grimaldi, but I need to check that in the Findlater book.Zephirine (talk) 09:20, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

It was his father who was decapitated at death. It is a mistaken belief that it was Grimaldi himself. -- Cassianto^Talk 23:31, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

His son Joseph Samuel Grimaldi was depressive though. -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:33, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Overhaul and extension proposal

Should I replace this existing article with this newer version?. -- Cassianto^Talk 21:41, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

• Yes, if it ends up like the Dan Leno article. Cheers - SchroCat (^ • @) 22:37, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll try my best! :-) -- Cassianto^Talk 23:08, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

• Merge. I realize this isn't what you asked, but the new article is missing some of what makes the old article good, particularly the parts about how Grimaldi is remembered, and the detail about one of his performances that includes a song. The new article is much stronger on biographical detail. So I'd like to see you merge in the bits that are missing from the first article. Abhayakara (talk) 00:18, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Do you mean the "Legacy" section? -- Cassianto^Talk 06:35, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

• Merge. In my case, I'd like to retain a link to the 1911 Britannica article. If the citation in the references is no longer appropriate, then could you replace it with a poster in the external links section (below the commons poster)?: {{Wikisource1911Enc|Grimaldi, Joseph|Joseph Grimaldi}}, which would look like:

Bob Burkhardt (talk) 16:45, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for responding. I have added the 1911 Britannica banner to the EL section. Does this satisfy your concerns? -- Cassianto^Talk 18:35, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, thank you. Bob Burkhardt (talk) 19:01, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

• Replace. A suggestion: your version has 14 pages which, to my taste, is too much for an encyclopaedic biography. I think there are less significant details of this person's life in the article that could be removed without any harm to the article quality. Which ones? It's up to you to decide. No bad feelings if you disregard my suggestion.--Juraj Budak (talk) 03:48, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

I envisage the 14 pages being more like 8 pages after some copy editing. That will be the next stage. My version has already had one ce, and im currently working through the changes. Once I'm done it will hopefully be moved over to the main space for more copy edits to take place. Thanks for your thoughts. -- Cassianto^Talk 05:09, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

I plan to copy edit this thoroughly, and will probably streamline and delete some items, so I suspect it will end up shorter. But I don't find it too long at a glance. -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:33, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

• Closing note. Thank you to all those who took part. I have addressed the concerns and I think the majority would now feel the merging the best thing to do. It is my intension to now take this through a peer review before going forward to featured article status. I hope I can have your support. -- Cassianto^Talk 08:58, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Images

I think you have too many images of JS in his father's article, and that the images of JS are too early in the article - they should be near the part that describes JS. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:36, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Okay. Which one should go? This or this? --Cassianto^Talk 19:54, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't think you need the Scaramouche one here, and I think you should move the other one down lower. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:24, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Now done. Are the images in appropriate places? -- Cassianto^Talk 22:03, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Looks good. I put in the Robinson portrait instead of the image of the theatre, since two images of theatres are enough, and we only had one image of Grimaldi out of make-up. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:25, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Good idea. Thanks! -- Cassianto^Talk 22:27, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

[Left] Let's see if everyone is happy with the images now. All the best, -- 22:45, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Joseph Grimaldi/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Pyrotec (talk · contribs) 19:17, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

I will review. Pyrotec (talk) 19:17, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Initial comments

Sorry for the delay, I was expecting to be at this point a week ago. Nevertheless, I'm here now. Pyrotec (talk) 21:34, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

This article looks like a potential WP:FAC, but since this is WP:GAN I'll be reviewing it against WP:WIAGA. I'm start my review, as I usually do at, the first section, Biography, I'll work my way to the end and then go back at do the WP:Lead.

This stage is mostly looking for "problems", if any, so my comments will mostly be directed here to those aspects of the nomination. This step is likely to take several days. Pyrotec (talk) 21:34, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

• Biography -
  • Family background and early years -

• Looks compliant.

• • Early years at Sadler's Wells and Drury Lane -

• Looks compliant.

• • Last years at Drury Lane -

...Stopping at this point. To be continued, tomorrow. Pyrotec (talk) 22:18, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

• Looks compliant.

• • Covent Garden years -

• Looks compliant.

• • Later career -

...Stopping at this point. To be continued. Pyrotec (talk) 19:38, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

• Looks compliant.

• Last years, death and legacy -

• Looks compliant.

• WP:Lead -

• The lead provides quite a good introduction to the article, it provides a reasonable summary in accordance with WP:lead and with a "length" of four paragraphs is also compliant.
• I gave some consideration as to whether the lead was "missing anything" and whether it should be be longer, without coming to any strong conclusions. I pondered on whether relations (deteriorating) with the son JS and/or his difficulties as a theatre proprietor should be included; and whether the lead needed to be longer. At four paragraphs the lead is "about right" so any additional material would need to be accommodated within a four-paragraph-structure. Relations with JS and theatre proprietorship form only a small part of the article, so the "due weight" considerations of the WP:Lead is applicable.
• I believe that the article has reasonable prospect at WP:FAC, so it may need "beefing up" there, but at WP:GAN its quite adequate/acceptable. Pyrotec (talk) 22:35, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Overall summary

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

---

This article is a "strong: WP:GAN nomination, and I believe has potential at WP:FAC.

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused:

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:

   Yes.

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

   The article is well provided with images, one of which has, as yet unresolved, "copyright claims against Wikimedia Commons in relation to the work from which this is sourced or a purely mechanical reproduction thereof".

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

I'm pleased to be able to award this article GA status. I believe that it could make it though WP:FAC, if that is to be its intended path. My only advice would be to look at the Lede and consider whether any work would be needed for FA (this is outside my areas of expertise), WP:PR may be a source of information from a wider viewpoint than mine. Pyrotec (talk) 22:47, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

• Waiting with bated breath and a huge sigh of relief my end all round, I'm elated to have this awarded good article status. Having already sat a PR prior to this GAC, I will have to take another look at the lede again before heading over to FAC. Once again Pyrotec, thank you so much for taking the time to review. -- Cassianto^Talk 23:12, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Some context for the Harlequinade and Grimaldi

The British theatrical genre of pantomime (and the harlequinade that invariably was included in the pantomime in the 18th and 19th centuries), was a wildly popular form of entertainment on the British stage from the time of John Rich (producer) through the end of the Victorian era. The pantomime consisted of a broadly played fairy tale or folk tale, followed by a "transformation scene" in which a fairy magically changed the pantomime setting into the harlequinade amidst "red fire" and other spectacular effects. In this transformation scene, the major characters in the pantomime were transformed (changing costume right before the audience's eyes) into the harlequinade characters. The pantomime had a double title, describing the two unconnected stories such as "Little Miss Muffet and Little Boy Blue, or Harlequin and Old Daddy Long-Legs." The British still have Christmas pantomimes, but these no longer include the harlequinade. The pantomime/harlequinade entertainment was so popular in the 19th century that nearly every West End theatre, and most theatres throughout the country, played a panto/harlequinade from December to February every year, and often another one at Easter. Some theatres played them year round.

This article is about the English theatrical genre. For the ballet "Harlequinade", see Les Millions d'Arlequin.

Clown, Harlequin and Pantaloon, with the Policeman

The harlequinade was a highly stylized entertainment containing chaotic chase scenes and other programmatic comic craziness. Every harlequinade had the same five clown characters: 1) Harlequin, the romantic lead; 2) the scheming and mischievous Clown; 3) Harlequin's girlfriend Columbine; 4) greedy old Pantaloon; and 5) the servant Pierrot. All of the major harlequinade characters were different types of clowns; the minor characters included a policeman who tried in vain to catch the clowns and restore order. The setting was usually of a street scene, and it usually contained several stage traps, practical and trick doors and windows. Grimaldi specialized in playing the mischievous Clown character. Clown, more than any other character, was called upon to test the limits of his agility, jumping through windows, and re-appearing through trap doors. Actors who played Clown would tip the 'catchers', the stage hands who stood waiting to catch him after he leapt. Failure to do so might result in injury! The Clown would steal sausages, chickens and other props which he would stuff into his pockets. There was usually a scene where he would grease the doorstep of a butcher's shop with butter, to the merriment of the audience, to outwit his pursuers. Often there was a scene where Clown would divide stolen food unfairly with an accomplice. There was often much business with a "Red Hot Poker". A dog would be magically transformed into sausages, a bed became a horse trough, to the surprise of the sleeping victim. Clown would dive into a clock face, which would show no sign of entry. These were accomplished by the 'magic' in Harlequin's staff or wand. See this article for more information.

Grimaldi became the most famous Clown in London, building up the role from a pratfalling "rustic booby" into the most important character in the Harlequinade, more important even than Harlequin. He expanded the role of Clown to include a range of comic personations and business, from the rival suitor, to household cook or nurse. Grimaldi's popularity changed the balance of the evening's entertainment, so that the first, relatively serious, section of the pantomime soon dwindled to "little more than a pretext for determining the characters who were to be transformed into those of the harlequinade."

Grimaldi became the most famous comic entertainer in the 19th century; more famous than Jerry Seinfeld or Woody Allen or Robin Williams, or even The Beatles, because there were limited opportunities for entertainment in the days before the invention of the phonograph, TV, radio, film and video games. After sundown, your flat had for entertainment only books and magazines to read by lamplight; but if you went to the huge Drury Lane Theatre, you could see and hear the great Grimaldi. -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:06, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

JS

Hello all. His son's nickname, JS, is only specified once in the article but used repeatedly throughout. It's used in sections other than the one which explains it. As many people do reading encyclopedia articles, I didn't read the article straight thru. I jumped around to sections that interested me. As a result, when I first encountered references to "JS" I didn't understand them, and couldn't readily find an explanation. I used my browser's text-search to find the explanation, which lost my place in the article, etc. So, I wonder if the article should use the full name at the beginning of each section.... Cheers! Beyondallmeaning (talk) 17:30, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Hello and thanks for taking the time to read and comment on the article. Joseph Samuel was professionally (and commonly) known as "JS", and was very rarely referred to by his full name. The name "JS" is, as far as I can see, explained upon the first mention within this article, and is then used consistently throughout. It would be wrong of us to acknowledge his notable name as "JS" and then refer to him as Joseph Samuel throughout the rest of the article. In terms of the primary sources, Findlater, McConnell Stott and Boz all refer to him as "JS" which leads me to believe that this was his more notable name. Does anybody else have any thoughts on this? --Cassianto^Talk 18:58, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Hello. I don't think we should refer to him as Joseph Samuel throughout the article. I'm mainly just describing my experience reading the article. Would explaining the nickname at the beginning of each new section where it's used be a fair middle ground? Beyondallmeaning (talk) 21:33, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

It's a good question. I've added "his son" before JS in a couple of places to clarify. Does that clarify it enough, Beyond, or do you still think that we ought to add in a few more definitions of the nickname? -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:13, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Hello. Yes, I think that's better. thanks. Beyondallmeaning (talk) 23:31, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Sorry Beyondallmeaning I misunderstood you. See above comment. Thank you for your suggestion. -- Cassianto^Talk 23:16, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Dancing on his grave

If I had time, I'd work this in: Krokatsis memorial. BrainyBabe (talk) 02:11, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Well in that case, thank heaven for small mercys! ;) -- Cassianto^Talk 05:41, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Infoboxes

Articles without infoboxes look incomplete, like they were written in 2004 and never updated. - Who is John Galt? ✉ 19:37, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Thankfully I don't share this distorted view and would request that you don't start the same monotonous thread seen on so many articles so many times. Cassianto^Talk 19:53, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Good lord, this looks fantastic as it stands, and certainly doesn't need the "Joey for Dummies" approach of repeating everything without shade or nuance in a little box crammed in the corner. Bravo for leaving the page free of such a hideous excrescence! - SchroCat (talk) 19:58, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

*Lots of fancy language*!!! - Who is John Galt? ✉ 22:41, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately it seems to be wasted on this pointless conversation. Cassianto^Talk 22:52, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

I agree with SchroCat – this article is better without a redundant infobox. -- Ssilvers (talk) 01:11, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Infoboxes are good. - Who is John Galt? ✉ 15:58, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Not always. Sometimes they can be good, sometimes they can be essential. And sometimes they are an abomination. There are no hard and fast rules on their use, thankfully, and the inherent flexibility of the MoS in not insisting on them is a great benefit to the project. - SchroCat (talk) 16:20, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

A Question

Your article clearly gives 1799 as the year of Grimaldi's debut as Clown in Peter Wilkins, yet in both of Findlater's books, King of Clowns as well as the more recent (1978) Life and Theatre, the year is given as 1800. Are you aware of the discrepancy (I assume you are, actually) and how have you adjudicated it? (I want to be as accurate as I can on the Pierrot page.) Thanks in advance for your reply. Beebuk 02:36, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Hi thanks for the interest. I don't see where you mean? Where I'm reading (first para of "last years at Drury Lane" section) it makes no mention of him making his debut as Clown in that given year. Cassianto^Talk 20:10, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

The article says that he appeared in Peter Wilkins in 1799, but it does not say that he played Clown in that production. What is Peter Wilkins about? -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:36, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the responses. Richard Findlater, who has written two books about Grimaldi, writes (in both of the books) that, in the Easter pantomime, Peter Wilkins; or The Flying World, at Sadler's Wells in 1800, Grimaldi made his debut as Gobble the Eating Clown. It was his appearance in this pantomime and in this role, according to Findlater, that marked his ascension as the greatest English Clown of the 19th century. Nothing in the Wikiarticle contradicts these assertions except the date. I'm wondering why, here, the performance is dated 1799. (I haven't read the work that is referenced in the two footnotes to this passage; thus my dilemma.) Thanks for the help. Beebuk 21:35, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Dibdin's WP article says that Grimaldi was in his company at Saddler's Wells and played roles in both 1799 and 1800, mentioning several other roles, but does not specifically mention the one in Peter Wilkins. This reference and several others that you can find on Google, says that Peter Wilkins was in 1800. Cassianto, can you confirm? If so, we should say that he joined Sadler's Wells in 1899 and played several roles written by Dibdin, but that his role in Peter Wilkins, in 1800, prompted the management to promote him to Clown. See also this, which is a little confusing on dates, but seems also to say that the changes to the character of Harlequin at Sadler's Wells were also a key reason why Grimaldi's Clown became such a famous agent of mischief and chaos. -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:00, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Many thanks, Ssilvers, for chasing down these references. As they imply and as Findlater convincingly argues, Peter Wilkins was a crucial turning-point in Grimaldi's career (and, given the subsequent change in Harlequin, in the English pantomime itself). Shouldn't the Wikipage underscore this? It seems to be buried here in the paragraph that we're talking about. Beebuk 01:24, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I think changes ought to be made in this page, the Harlequin page, the Harlequinade page and the pantomime page. I'll wait for Cassianto to have time to fix this page first, as he has all the books, and then I'll make a simple change in the others. -- Ssilvers (talk) 03:23, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I have fixed as best I can using the only sources I have left. I still can't say for sure that it was 1800 that Grimaldi played clown, so perhaps you know something I dont. If you do, I'd be grateful if you could elaborate further using a reliable source. Cheers Cassianto^Talk 10:42, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Using McConnell Scott's book, I have clarified further. Looks OK, Cassianto? -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:09, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it does, thanks for that Ss. Although the attribution is missing for the quote that you added. Was this also the Bentley's contributor who said this? Cassianto^Talk 07:04, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

No. It's attributed in the footnote - R. J. Broadbent, Chapter 16. Do you think it needs to be repeated in the text? -- Ssilvers (talk) 07:14, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Well, it did leave me asking the question "who said this?". Cassianto^Talk 20:06, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Haha! Fair enough. How's that? -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:27, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

That's great, thanks Ss! Beebuk, does this look ok to you now? Cassianto^Talk 23:11, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it all looks very good now. Many thanks! Beebuk 01:33, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

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