Talk:Exodus of Kashmiri Hindus

Bibliography

Books

• Bose, Sumantra (1997), The challenge in Kashmir: democracy, self-determination, and a just peace, New Delhi: Sage Publications, ISBN 978-0-8039-9350-1
• Bose, Sumantra (2003), Kashmir: Roots of Conflict, Paths to Peace, Harvard University Press, ISBN 978-0-674-01173-1
• Bose, Sumantra (2013), Transforming India, Harvard University Press, ISBN 978-0-674-72819-6
• On Uncertain Ground: Displaced Kashmiri Pandits in Jammu and Kashmir, Oxford University Press, 2017, ISBN 9780199466771
• Faheem, Farrukh (2018), "Interrogating the Ordinary: Everyday Politics and the Struggle for Azadi in Kashmir", in Duschinski, Haley; Bhan, Mona; Zia, Ather; Mahmood, Cynthia (eds.), Resisting Occupation in Kashmir, University of Pennsylvania Press, pp. 230–247, ISBN 978-0-8122-9496-5
• Hussain, Shahla (2015), "Kashmiri Visions of Freedom: The Past and the Present", in Zutshi, Chitralekha (ed.), Kashmir: History, Politics, Representation, Cambridge University Press, ISBN 978-1107181977
• Jagmohan (2006) [September 1991]. My Frozen Turbulence in Kashmir (7 ed.). Allied Publisher. ISBN 9788177649956.
• Jamal, Arif (2009), Shadow War: The Untold Story of Jihad in Kashmir, Melville House, ISBN 978-1-933633-59-6
• Madan, T. N. (2008), "Kashmir, Kashmiris, Kashmiriyat: An Introductory Essay", in Rao, Aparna (ed.), The Valley of Kashmir: The Making and Unmaking of a Composite Culture?, pp. 1–36
• Malik, Iffat (2005), Kashmir: Ethnic Conflict, International Dispute, Oxford University Press, ISBN 978-0-19-579622-3
• Metcalf, Barbara; Metcalf, Thomas R. (2006), A Concise History of Modern India (Cambridge Concise Histories), Cambridge and New York: Cambridge University Press. Pp. xxxiii, 372, ISBN 978-0-521-68225-1
• Rai, Mridu (2004), Hindu Rulers, Muslim Subjects: Islam, Rights, and the History of Kashmir, Princeton University Press/Permanent Black, ISBN 978-81-7824-202-6
• Tikoo, Colonel Tej K. (2013). Kashmir: Its Aborigines and Their Exodus. Lancer Publishers LLC. ISBN 978-1-935501-58-9.
• Pandit, T. N. (2005-01-01). Kashmiri Pandits: A Contemporary Perspective. APH Publishing. pp. 3, 9, 63–. ISBN 9788176488129.
• Snedden, Christopher (2021), Independent Kashmir: An incomplete aspiration, Manchester University Press, ISBN 978-1-5261-5615-0
• Swami, Praveen (2007), India, Pakistan and the Secret Jihad: The covert war in Kashmir, 1947-2004, Asian Security Studies, Routledge, ISBN 0-415-40459-2
• Wani, Aijaz Ashraf (2019), What Happened to Governance in Kashmir?, Oxford University Press India, ISBN 978-0-19-909715-9
• Wilhelm, Sandhya (2010). Can India Give Up Kashmir: An Option or a Risk? (PDF) (Thesis). Georgetown University.
• Zutshi, Chitralekha (2003), Languages of Belonging: Islam, Regional Identity, and the Making of Kashmir, C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, ISBN 978-1-85065-700-2

Journals

• Evans, Alexander (2002). "A departure from history: Kashmiri Pandits, 1990–2001". Contemporary South Asia. 11 (1): 19–37. doi:10.1080/0958493022000000341. ISSN 0958-4935. S2CID 145573161.
• Duschinski, Haley (2008). ""Survival Is Now Our Politics": Kashmiri Hindu Community Identity and the Politics of Homeland". International Journal of Hindu Studies. 12 (1): 41–64. doi:10.1007/s11407-008-9054-z. ISSN 1022-4556. JSTOR 40343840. S2CID 143490357.

Fowler&fowler's third-party scholarly sources on descriptors commonly used for the "exodus" of Pandits

Please do not add sources to this section. I will add a discussion section below once I have added the sources.

"migration"

"migration

Evans, Alexander (2002), "A departure from history: Kashmiri Pandits, 1990–2001", Contemporary South Asia, 11 (1): 19–37, doi:10.1080/0958493022000000341, ISSN 0958-4935, S2CID 145573161,  (p. 19) The present article is structured as follows. First, it tries to explain what happened to KPs in 1990 and beyond. (p. 20) Examining the fall-out of the mass migration, it then looks at the extremist politics that followed, before concluding with an assessment of the contemporary situation. (p. 22) There is a third possible explanation for what happened in 1990; one that acknowledges the enormity of what took place, but that examines carefully what triggered KP migration: KPs migrated en masse through legitimate fear. (p. 24) While decennial growth rates rose between 1961 and 2001, the same period saw a degree of migration of KPs from Jammu & Kashmir. Zia, Ather (2020), Resisting Disappearnce: Military Occupation and Women's Activism in Kashmir, University of Washington Press, p. 60,  In the early 1990s the Kashmiri Hindus, known as the Pandits (a 100,000 to 140,000 strong community), migrated en masse from Kashmir to Jammu, Delhi, and other places. Bhatia, Mohita (2020), Rethinking Conflict at the Margins: Dalits and Borderland Hindus in Jammu and Kashmir, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, p. 9,  Despite witnessing a prolonged spell of insurgency including a few incidents of selective killings, Jammu was still considered to be a relatively safe refuge by the Hindu community of Kashmir, the Pandits. As a minuscule Hindu minority community in the Muslim-majority Kashmir (around 3 per cent of Kashmir's population), they felt more vulnerable and noticeable as insurgency peaked in Kashmir. Lawlessness, uncertainty, political turmoil along with a few target killings of Pandits led to the migration of almost the entire community from the Valley to other parts of the country Bhan, Mona; Misri, Deepti; Zia, Ather (2020), "Relating Otherwise: Forging Critical Solidarities Across the Kashmiri Pandit-Muslim Divide.", Biography, 43 (2): 285–305, doi:10.1353/bio.2020.0030,  ...the everyday modes of relating that existed between Kashmiri Pandits and Muslims in the period leading up to the "Migration," as the Pandit departures have come to be called among Kashmiris, both Pandit and Muslim. Duschinski, Haley (2018), "'Survial Is Now Our Politics': Kashmiri Pandit Community Identiy and the Politics of Homeland", Kashmir: History, Politics, Representation, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, pp. 172–198, 178–179,  The Kashmiri Pandit migration: (p. 178) The onset of the armed phase of the freedom struggle in 1989 was a chaotic and turbulent time in Kashmir (Bose, 2003). Kashmiri Pandits felt an increasing sense of vulnerability Zutshi, Chitralekha (2004), Languages of Belonging: Islam, Regional Identity, and the Making of Kashmir, Oxford and New York: Oxford University Press, p. 318, ISBN 978-1-85065-700-2,  Since a majority of the landlords were Hindu, the (land) reforms (of 1950) led to a mass exodus of Hindus from the state. ... The unsettled nature of Kashmir's accession to India, coupled with the threat of economic and social decline in the face of the land reforms, led to increasing insecurity among the Hindus in Jammu, and among Kashmiri Pandits, 20 per cent of whom had emigrated from the Valley by 1950. Sarkaria, Mallika Kaur (2009), "Powerful Pawns of the Kashmir Conflict: Kashmiri Pandit Migrants", Asian and Pacific Migration Journal, 18 (2): 197–230,   (p. 197) Tens of thousands Kashmiri Pandits (the Hindus of Kashmir) left the Kashmir Valley during the Kashmiri Independence movement of 1989-1990. This migration has been fervently debated by all sides ever since. The voices of Pandit advocacy organizations have gained prominence and often serve to create a narrative that forwards the Indian government's interests: painting the conflict in Kashmir as one of Muslim desire for communal hegemony versus the Indian state's secularism and democracy. This paper focuses specifically on the claims for reparations for Pandit-owned properties that remain in the Valley. (p. 199) It is widely held that the majority of Kashmiri Muslims supported the Kashmiri Independence movement; that the government machinery of Kashmir was initially ineffective in the face of this uprising; and that tens of thousands of Kashmiri Pandits (the Hindus from Kashmir, who constitute a unique religious and cultural minority) migrated from the Valley. The statements of the facts that surround this Kashmiri Pandit migration do not converge on much else. Since 1990, Pandit migration has been a fervently debated and deeply sensitive issue on all sides. Pandits have been more vocal and organized than other internally displaced populations in India. Yet, as this paper illustrates, the prominent Pandit advocacy organizations and activists might not in fact represent those most affected or those who continue to desire to return to the Kashmir Valley. Note this also has "internally displaced." Duschinski, Haley (2014), "Community Identity of Kashmiri Hindus in the United States", Emerging Voices: Experiences of Underrepresented Asian Americans, Rutgers University Press, The mass migration of Kashmiri Hindus from Kashmir Valley began in November 1989 and accelerated in the following months. Every family has its departure story. Many families simply packed their belongings into thier cars and left under cover of night, without words of farewell to friends and neighbors. In some cases, wives and children left first, while husbands stayed behind to watch for the situation to improve; in other cases, parents sent their teenage sons away after hearing threats against them, and followed them days or weeks later. Many migrants report that they entrusted their house keys and belongings to the Muslim neighbors or servants and expected to return to their homes after a few weeks. Tens of thousands of Kashmiri Hindus left Kashmir Valley in the span of several months. There are also competing perspectives on the factors that led to the mass migration of Kashmiri Hindus during this period. Kashmiri Hindus describe migration as a forced exodus diven by Islamic fundamendalist elements in Pakistan that spilled across the Line of Control into the Kashmir Valley. They think that Kashmiri Muslims had acted as bystanders to violence by not protecting lives and properties fo the vulnerable Hindu community from the militant ... The mass migration, however, was understood differently by the Muslim religious majority in Kashmir. These Kashmiri Muslims, many of whom were committed to the cause of regional independence, believed that Kashmiri Hindus betrayed them by withdrawning their support from the Kashmiri nationalist movement and turning to the government of India for protection at the moment of ... This perspective is supported by claims, articulated by some prominent separatist political leaders, that the Indian government orchestrated the mass migration of the Kashmiri Hindu community in order to have a free hand to crack down on the popular uprising. These competing perspectives gave rise to mutual feelings of suspicion and betrayal—feelings that lingered between Kashmiri Muslims and Kashmiri Hindus and became more entrenched as time continued.

"flight"

"flight"

Bose, Sumantra (2021), Kashmir at the Crossroads, Inside a 21st-Century Conflict, Yale University Press, pp. 119–120,  As insurrection gripped the Kashmir Valley in early 1990, the bulk – about 100,000 people – of the Pandit population fled the Valley over a few weeks in February–March 1990 to the southern Indian J&K city of Jammu and further afield to cities such as Delhi. ... The large-scale flight of Kashmiri Pandits during the first months of the insurrection is a controversial episode of the post-1989 Kashmir conflict. Talbot, Ian; Singh, Gurharpal (2009), The Partition of India, New Approaches to Asian History, Cambridge University Press, pp. 136–137, ISBN 9780521672566,  Between 1990 and 1995, 25,000 people were killed in Kashmir, almost two-thirds by Indian armed forces. Kashmiris put the figure at 50,000. In addition, 150,000 Kashmiri Hindus fled the valley to settle in the Hindu-majority region of Jammu. Metcalf & Metcalf 2006, p. 274The Hindu Pandits, a small but influential elite community who had secured a favourable position, first under the maharajas, and then under the successive Congress regimes, and proponents of a distinctive Kashmiri culture that linked them to India, felt under siege as the uprising gathered force. Of a population of some 140,000, perhaps 100,000 Pandits fled the state after 1990

"departure," "leaving"

"departure"

Rai, Mridu (2021), "Narratives from exile: Kashmiri Pandits and their construction of the past", in Bose, Sugata; Jalal, Ayesha (eds.), Kashmir and the Future of South Asia, Routledge Contemporary South Asia Series, Routledge, pp. 91–115, 106, Beginning in January 1990, such large numbers of Kashmiri Pandits – the com munity of Hindus native to the valley of Kashmir – left their homeland and so precipitously that some have termed their departure an exodus. Indeed, within a few months, nearly 100,000 of the 140,000- strong community had left for neighbouring Jammu, Delhi, and other parts of India and the world. One immediate impetus for this departure in such dramatically large numbers was the inauguration in 1989 of a popularly backed armed Kashmiri insurgency against Indian rule. This insurrection drew support mostly from the Valley's Muslim population. By 2011, the numbers of Pandits remaining in the Valley had dwindled to between 2,700 and 3,400, according to different estimates. An insignificant number have returned.

Picture

Ruins of a house abandoned by a Kashmiri Hindu family during the exodus in southern Kashmir Valley

This picture, taken and added to the article by me, was removed. I'm assuming there is a problem with the picture. I would like to know what that problem is. UnpetitproleX (talk) 22:03, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm assuming this picture was removed in the edit "14:13, 12 June 2024 Fowler&fowler talk contribs  165,644 bytes −188  No consensus for this Undid revision 1219214511 by UnpetitproleX" because the infobox image (which is the main image of the page) was removed without consensus.

I have added this image in the page in another location. I don't think anyone would have an objection to that. Yuyutsu Ho (talk) 08:05, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

No proof was offered that it was a house abandoned by a Hindu family. It is just the picture of a house in ruins, actually more like an office building (judging by the boxy construction) or a school building in ruins.

I don't have to seek consensus for removing the image; by longstanding Wikipedia rules the WP:ONUS, "the responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content."

In other words, it is your responsibility to show that the image is both legitimate and relevant. For example, the major exodus of Kashmiri Hindus took place between January and end of March 1990. Not only is there no proof that the house was abandoned by a Hindu family but also no proof has been offered that it was abandoned during that critical period. I will therefore be shortly removing that image again. If you edit war, I will seek administrative help. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:15, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

The image was taken in a town in southern Kashmir Valley, the gps coordinates as mentioned in the image description are (33° 32′ 27.38″ N 75° 14′ 53.44″ E). I assume you've never set foot in Kashmir if the house looks like an office or school building to you because it has the unmistakable look of a typical rural Kashmiri house from that era (see here, here in snow, here, here, here, here, here, and here in this yt video). Many similar images are also available in this book which is a compilation of personal accounts of displaced Hindus.

In fact, the image of ruins of abandoned Hindu houses is one of two most enduring images of the Hindu exodus and displacement itself (the other being that of the camps they were moved to), as exemplified by the cover of the above book, and by all the posts, articles and video I shared above. Such image of ruined and abandoned houses also appears in films such as Tahaan, is a recurring motif in documentaries like this one, this one and this one and central theme in songs such as this one and this one. As for this particular image, the exact location of the ruined house is disclosed in the gps coordinates (33° 32′ 27.38″ N 75° 14′ 53.44″ E). It was taken through the fence of the adjacent Muslim graveyard, behind the local mosque, in the carpenters' mohalla in Verinag, Anantnag.

Pinging also the other major editors @Kautilya3 and TrangaBellam: for inputs. UnpetitproleX (talk) 00:27, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

I had obviously examined both the camera and gps details before replying. I maintain that the abandoned building does not look at all like a house. It is built in a boxy, minimalist, style, with no architectural flourishes. Show me another house in India that has 13 big windows in the front facade and a main door barely higher than the windows, but nothing else. How big a Hindu clan was living in such a house? More than likely, it is a school with big windows to let light in.

It is built in exactly the same style as the Government Multipurpose School in Verinag, Anantnag, Kashmir, except it has fewer windows.

You've claimed a similar building with even bigger windows File:Abandoned Kashmiri Hindu House.jpg is also a abandoned Hindu house. How do you know it is not an abandoned Muslim building? Given the deprivation the Muslims of Kashmir suffered for a hundred years (1846 to 1947) under the Dogra "maharaja" and his Pandit collaborators, more than likely a rudimentary, boxy, style is all the Muslims could have afforded.

Besides, I know of no WP policy that suggests that what is depicted in popular culture, especially right-wing Hindu revivalist, should also be depicted on Wikipedia. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:22, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Which of the 15 examples I shared is "right-wing Hindu revivalist"? One is a post by a Kashmiri Muslim photojournalist ([1]), one an Architectural Digest story about a displaced Kashmiri Hindu filmmaker's short film ([2]), a photo essay in The Wire by a Kashmiri Muslim journalist ([3]), a post by another displaced Kashmiri Hindu filmmaker ([4]), a story in Scroll.in about abandoned Hindu houses during 2014 floods ([5]), a Hindustan Times story by a displaced Kashmiri Hindu ([6]), a post by a KH actor ([7]), a youtube vlog by a Malayali Muslim youtuber ([8]), a Bloomsbury-published book compilation of personal accounts of displaced Hindus ([9]), three documentary films all by displaced Kashmiri Hindus ([10], [11], [12]), two songs ([13], [14]) both by Kashmiri Hindu singers one of whom herself suffered the displacement and the other born in a 'refugee' camp. UnpetitproleX (talk) 02:29, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

You ask how I know File:Abandoned Kashmiri Hindu House.jpg is not an abandoned Muslim building? Because I took the photo. It belongs to a family of Kashmiri Hindus of the Wali (surname) clan who left first for Jammu and then later migrated to the US. The house was abandoned mid-construction, which is why it looks unfinished. UnpetitproleX (talk) 02:41, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I have now removed the picture. As I say in my edit summary, I rewrote the major portion of the article in late 2022 and early 2023. See Authorship.

The picture was taken by an iPhone 8 plus on 5 February 2024, scroll down to Metadata. It was added to this article with an edit summary, "move map to map column, add image," on 16 April 2024, more than a year after the article had been rewritten. It is clear what the WP:STATUSQUO was and remains. It is the one without the picture. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:39, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

• I grant F&F's objection about us not being able to verify whether this particular house was left by KPs in their exodus. However, PetitproleX's overall argument — esp. that this isn't a school and that the imagery of vacant houses is routinely used to signify the exodus — is accurate. So, a compromise seems to be in order; can we mail the authors of similar photographs, already used in relevant scholarship, and request for a CC release? Most photographers are willing to comply. TrangaBellam (talk) 04:58, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

  Hello @TrangaBellam: I don't see that the poster Unpetite*X has made the argument that it is not a school? I have just posted a picture above of a school taken in the 1930s, also in Verinag. It was built in the same rudimentary, boxy, architectural style. Unpetit*X's picture is more than likely that of a smaller school, kindergarten or elementary school. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:32, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

  Did you read my reply above? It is not a school, I know this because I took the picture, and stayed and lived in the town for some time, and have a relationship with it. You on the other hand are claiming and that too as a matter fo fact ("not a house, let alone Hindu house") that the building is a school based on this photo and nothing else. UnpetitproleX (talk) 04:00, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

  As for pictures of abandoned Hindu houses found in some sources, what is perplexing is that not a single picture exists of the Hindus actually leaving. It appears they left in the dead of night with nary a word to anyone, not even to their Muslim neighbors of many decades. Finding authentic pictures in scholarly books could be a fraught task. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:58, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

  Quick reply:

  > It appears they left in the dead of night with nary a word to anyone, not even to their Muslim neighbors of many decades. That is true, to be honest. You might call that a fear psychosis or whatever—I vaguely remember Sudhir kakar having something interesting on this locus in a different context—but thst KPs left their homes, en masse, is undeniable. Manoj Raghuvanshi and Alpana Kishore reported for Newstrack and there are archive footages though quite sparse. See Newslaundry's Reporting from Kashmir, 1989 to 1994 (Youtube) for some details. TrangaBellam (talk) 13:41, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

  @TrangaBellam: I think you mean this video. In March 2023 on this talk page, I had pointed FF to a portion of that coverage (an extract of only the exodus related coverage which has 5.6M views on youtube, around 2.2M more than the all time views of our article) when they were similarly 'perplexed' by the absence of photos and even suggested that this lack of photos gives some credence to the conspiracy theory that governor Jagmohan had some form of an understanding with the Pandits where they would leave quietly allowing him "to deal with the Muslims". UnpetitproleX (talk) 03:37, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

  Also, does the exact location of the house as revealed in the gps coordinates on the file page not make it verifiable, for anybody could go verify its presence? There are no exceptional claims being made by the photo, that there exist thousands of such abandoned houses in different stages of decay is indisputable fact.

  In A Long Dream of Home, photographs by Kashmiri Pandit Sangharsh Samiti, Muhabit Ul Haq, Siddhartha Gigoo, Seema Bhat, Sushant Dhar and Vijay Dharr—whose pictures look no different from mine except for lack of snow in them—are present. Datta's On Uncertain Ground includes pictures of the relief/migrant camps where he conducted most of his fieldwork, not of the abandoned houses in the valley which he likely did not visit. UnpetitproleX (talk) 04:39, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

  @UnpetitproleX: The article is about the en masse migration of Kashmiri Hindus, mostly between early January- and late March 1990. To claim that a picture, taken 34 years later, of an "unfinished house," of your description, in which therefore people were not actually living, is an illustration of the exodus, would require irrefutably reliable sources, even scholarly sources in my view. I don't see them. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:46, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

  @Fowler&fowler: where did I describe the house as unfinished? I was referring to the other picture (of the Wali house) that you referenced. Are you purposely trying to make false claims about what I said? UnpetitproleX (talk) 10:39, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  It doesn't make any difference. So, now there are two pictures, one, File:Abandoned Kashmiri Hindu house in snow.jpg, allegedly of a lived-in house built in the architecture of an elementary school and the other, File:Abandoned Kashmiri Hindu House.jpg, allegedly of an unfinished, unlived-in one, built in the architecture of an elementary school. In a subject area as volatile and conflict-ridden as Kashmir's, each picture would require irrefutable, scholarly secondary sources. I don't see any. Your opinion or mine, from near or afar, is not worth a hill of beans. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:39, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  The only person who thinks it is a school or built like one is you. UnpetitproleX (talk) 01:22, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Pictures

Image of abandoned KH house in snow, taken Feb 2024 and uploaded same month; shows the building through the fence of the adjacent graveyard from a side lane

Image of the same house, taken in April 2021 and uploaded in March 2022; shows the house from the main road, with the adjacent graveyard and fence visible in front

• Both images were taken and uploaded by me, over a period of close to 3 years. As I noted above, the house has the unmistakable look of a typical rural Kashmiri house from that era and the image of abandoned houses is often used to signify the displacement (for which I offered multiple examples from a variety of mediums and sources). Both of these arguments TrangaBellam found to be accurate, and the claim by FF that the house is actually a school is based on this facebook photo and nothing else. Thus I am no longer arguing that this house is not a house. I will only address TB's ask for verification. Both the images have gps coordinates as well as camera heading/direction: 33.540939, 75.248178 and 33.540794, 75.248694—tying the images to a specific geolocation. Indeed , if you look up the coordinates on map with sattelite imagery, you can clearly see the house. Thousands of such abandoned houses in different stages of decay exist in Kashmir. If it wasn't apparent from images taken almost 3 years apart, I have lived in the town, and have a relationship with it. I know its lanes and shops and nooks and buildings. I am not making claims based on facebook pictures without ever having set foot in Kashmir. UnpetitproleX (talk) 02:32, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

One of the most Whitewashed page

Several rapes and Murders were committed during this time by Islamic Extremists and still this page is titled "Exodus" not Genocide. 103.247.52.141 (talk) 23:13, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia goes by what reliable sources say. And reliable sources say, as the page says, The descriptions of the violence as "genocide" or "ethnic cleansing" in some Hindu nationalist publications or among suspicions voiced by some exiled Pandits are widely considered inaccurate and aggressive by scholars. AntiDionysius (talk) 23:16, 17 November 2024 (UTC)