Talk:Doñas de fuera

NPOV - Confession made to inquisition treated as accurate

There's a fundamental NPOV problem. The inquisition tortured people in its trials to get confessions. Any claims the supposed witch allegedly said cannot be treated as if they were accurate and honest things the person believed. Even what such torture victims said is debatable, as the inquisitors' claims freqently went above and beyond what the people actually had said.

This whole article is just a complete disaster, both for NPOV problems and for lack of reliable sources in general, failing to cover it in context, etc. DreamGuy (talk) 22:04, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

If you have a problem with the article on the basis that the confessions were extracted under torture are being presented as what that person actually believed, then by all means modify it accordingly. Please bear in mind that it was written by someone who speaks English as a second language, I'm sure that it an honest mistake. Asarelah (talk) 23:29, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

English is not my birth language, and I did not realise that the article gave that impression. It was not my intent. My intention was simply to describe the story she presented them, and of course, she described it as if it had happened, as people do when they describe something they present as something they have done. I would like to rephrase it, but I am not sure how to to this, as I am a foreigner and didn't realise how this sounded in the English language. I have tried to put this case in to a context, and I do not think I did such a "disaster" in doing so. I have described the context in which the trial took place as good as I could. --Aciram (talk) 09:05, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Please, Dreamguy, you have removed so much from the article. All in the article is referenced by the source. That is the context you were talking about. And now, the context is truly a disaster, because you have removed it. It was all sourced. It needed not be removed, only rephrased. You have been so hasty. I will reintroduce it. That was the context: you removed the context, and then say the context is a disaster. No wonder then. --Aciram (talk) 09:41, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

I have reintroduced the context you removed from the article. We are all just trying to do are best, no one is here to do damage. The article is a representative example of the "fairy witch trials" unique for Sicily. Now, the the case is in good context again. I will also try to rephrase it to the best of my ability. Please do not modify it before the deletion discussion is finnished. --Aciram (talk) 09:46, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

I have rephrased it as good as I could, though the story lost some of its flow when you had to put in "She claimed", and "according to her confession" in every sentence. some one who is better in the English language then I could phrase it better. I think it is hasty to remove so much because you think it is improperly phrased. The right way to go, is to rephrase it. Otherwise, you remove a lot of information: not because the information is incorrect, just because it should be worded differently. And Dreamguy: try to assume good faith!--Aciram (talk) 10:33, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Oh:I should also point out something which may be of importance regarding the confession. It was quite some time ago I made this article. However, I do not remember any mention of torture in connection to her confession. I have the impression, that she came with her confession willingly and repented, and therefore was not tortured or punished. --Aciram (talk) 10:33, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Context removed

This was the context Dreamguy removed:

"She claimed to associate with fairys, and her confession was among the first that describes the belief in the contacts between elfs and humans on Sicily, something which was to become common in the witch trials of Sicily in the 17th century." (From intro)

"Her case was among the first of many witch trials in Sicily associated with the Elves and her confession was typical for the "Elf's cases" (regarding why her case is representative and importat for the phenomena)

"On Sicily, there was a belief that the elves or fairies would make contact with humans, mostly women, whom they took to Benevento, the Blockula of Sicily. The fairies were called donas de fuera, which was also a name for the women who associated with them. The fairies where described as beauties dressed in white, red or black; they could be male or female, and their feet were the paws of cats, horses or of a peculiar "round" shape. They came in groups of five or seven and a male fairy played the lute or the guitar while dancing. The fairies and the humans were divided into companies in different sizes, (different ones for noble and non-noble humans) under the lead of an ensign. Every Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday, the fairies met the humans belonging to their company in the woods. In March, several companies gathered, and their "Prince" instructed them to be benevolent creatures. A congregation called The Seven Fairies could transform themselves to cats and something called aydon; ayodons where able to kill.

The fairies could easily be offended by humans. In one story, a man who was not associated with the fairies and was unable to see them developed a painful cramp after hitting one of the fairies who was listening to him play music. Another story involves several people who had disturbed the fairies while they nocturnally travelled from house to house, eating and drinking as they routinely embraced the town's infants. On those occasions, the person in question paid one of the people associated with the fairies to be the host of a dinner at their homes, meeting the fairies while the owners of the house slept.

Between 1579 and 1651, 65 people (of which 8 where male), where put on trial for sorcery on Sicily claiming to be associates of the fairies. The Inquisition called them witches, but often did not take these cases seriously, as they never mentioned the Devil in their confessions. The Inquisition did occasionally associate meetings with the elves as events similar to a Witches' Sabbath, but as the public had a positive view of the phenomena, they did not press the matter. The accused said that they had been called because they had "Sweet blood", and that they in most cases went to the meetings in their souls only, while they left their bodies behind them. This is similar to the concept of astral projection and was something they had in common with the Benandanti.

In 1630, the medicine woman Vicencia la Rosa was sentenced to banishment and a ban from ever mentioning anything about the elves again, but she told people about her personal elf Martinillo, who took her to "Benevento" where she had sex and learned medicine, and she was arrested again and sent in exile from Sicily for life." (from the section describing the context)

If this is not context, then I admit I am incapable to understand the meaning of the word. --Aciram (talk) 10:50, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Dreamguy, I intend to tidy up this article and fix anything that may be unclear due to any difficulties that Aciram has with English. I am confident that I can lay your concerns to rest once I do so. Asarelah (talk) 16:39, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Renaming the page

As was requested in the nomination discussion for deletion, I will rename the page, so that the article will treat the context, the phenomena itself, as the main subject, with this case as a representative example. This will make is much easier to add references for everyone. The subject truly deserves an article here on wikipedia!--Aciram (talk) 15:00, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Multiple issues

I thought if I ignored this article long enough, it would fix itself. It's been a few months since I looked at this article and it's just as bad as ever. I actually thought it was a hoax at first. I think it's a good idea to add a tag. Issues: Sources- Apparently there are just 3 sources for the whole page, and they're all from Swedish books. I tried to find some website links to use, but I couldn't find any. Which leads me to question the...

Notability- The lack of results from google suggests this is either a very obscure set of occurances or an outright hoax. At the very least, it needs to be trimmed down a lot if not outright merged with another article.

Content- This article certainly doesn't need the section of what the fairies of Sicily are since there are other pages giving descriptions of fairies. This can be merged in with those. And do we need the protocol of statement in it's entirety? Wouldn't a brief summary do?

Grammar- Most of the article seems to have been written by Asarelah, who has stated that English isn't his/her first language, which seems to be reflected in the numerous grammar/spelling mistakes (I'm not trying to be rude here). 82.151.94.188 (talk) 00:49, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

I'd also like to point out that this article has been around for quite a long time. It's had it's chance. It should shape up right away for be deleted. 82.151.94.188 (talk) 01:00, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

The argument that the article is a hoax can not be taken seriously, as that is an insult, not a fact, and the article is clearly not as bad as that. Wikipedia fully accepts foregin language references, so that is not a valid argument. Notability- The lacks of results on Google proves nothing. There is not any particular word, or name, from the article you can use for an effective search on Google. Furthermore, this may not be a subject which has been given much attention or be generally well known, which is the case with many other historical phenomenas. The fact that a phenomena is specialized, and that it is hard to get information about a subject on a language you can understand, does not indicate that it is not notable. The notability is clearly stated in the article. It is a phenomena specific for Sicily. Content - yes, the fairy section can be included in the article of fairies, but it is also notable here, as it is a part of the context. Grammar - this is no valid reason for deletion. It can easily be fixed. Your arguments and your way of discussing is quite similar to the arguments already made by the editor Dreamguy, and those arguments has already been discussed withouth having been given any support. The same editor also violated wikipedia's rules by deleting an article without nominating it. This article has already been up for discussion, and its deletion has already been voted down. This must be respected, even by those who disagree. There is no time line for improving an article: Furthermore, the article is not as bad as you present it. All the arguments you present, and consider as argument for this articles alleged bad quality, has already been met long before and assessed as not valid. You may look at the deletion - discussion, were most of the arguments you present are alreday met and dicussed. Have a good day. --Aciram (talk) 11:12, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Unique Phenomenon?

Why is the opening lead-in indicating that this is a unique phenomenon? Fairy cults, and associated trials, were actually widespread throughout Europe at this time. What is unique about Sicily? --Trippz 13:32, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Good point. Perhaps it should be rephrased to the fact that witch trials involving fairies in the way it is described in the article is unique for Sicily? --85.226.42.215 (talk) 17:42, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Mistakes

I don't know anything about this topic, but I'm Italian and I can say Benevento is NOT in Sicily (so it hardly could be "the Blockula of Sicily"). Also, "donas de fuera" isn't Italian, or Sicilian, it's Spanish. For no reason whatsoever. Kumagoro-42 13:36, 22 September 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kumagoro-42 (talk • contribs)

Perhaps the point is rather, that the "witches" of Sicily visited Benevento, which was in Naples, on their gatherings. Therefore, it was still "the Blockula of Sicily", because the Sicilian "witches" used Benevento in Naples for their gatherings. And it is perhaps not strange if "donas de fuera" is Spanish, as this phenomena was described to the Spanish Inquisition. --Aciram (talk) 15:49, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

The Brocken also isn't in Sweden, and the North Pole isn't in England (and yet English Father Christmas lives there). This isn't the point. The problem is that this article was blindly translated from Swedish, without regard to Sweden-specific terms like Blockula, and without bothering about the dismal state of "referencing". --dab (𒁳) 16:35, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

I think the reference to Brocken is in regards to Brocken's reputation as the place where witches went during the festival of Walpurgisnacht(this is mentioned in the article on Brocken). Just like Goethe said that the witches went to Brocken, so the witches of Sicily said they went to Benevento. Hence, the "Brocken of Sicily". With that said, though I think the turn of phrase is pretty clever, I'm not sure I'd recommend keeping it.Cassius235 (talk) 19:14, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Doñas de fuera/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

== WP:OCCULT Assessment == Start Class - no refs. Needs additional material. Low Imprt - specific account of elf/human interaction. --Trippz (talk) 08:24, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Substituted at 18:15, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

Duplicate quote: The fisherwife of Palermo

Most of this section is a quotation, in plain text, which is then repeated in the following section, as a block quote. Someone more familiar with the various changes to, and arguments about, the page, should consolidate these two sections to avoid a very long duplication. Mastakos (talk) 21:08, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Protocol of statement

In addition to duplicating much of The Fisherwife of Palermo section. this then makes several statements if fact without any source for those statements:

"the Inquisition interrogated her and asked her leading questions."

"The attitude of the Inquisition was that fairies did not exist, but were a remnant of pagan superstition which should be eradicated and not be taken seriously."

&etc.

If these statements are from a trial record, they should be documented as such. Right now, they come across as generic witch trials statements and/or opinions of what the Inquisition usually did.

Or am I missing something? Mastakos (talk) 21:13, 26 November 2024 (UTC)