Talk:Beyoncé/Archive 13

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Semi-protected edit request on 21 April 2018

Beyonce's net worth is $550 Million. Check Forbes. and Also add performer as one of her occupations. Include Multi-genre artist because she transcends throughout music. Lastly, include links to all her main music platforms such as Spotify, Tidal, apple etc. IsraelNS (talk) 14:43, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: Because your request contains multiple proposals, I am addressing each one individually:

1. "Beyonce's net worth is $550 Million. Check Forbes." Nobody here is obliged to perform research for you on your behalf; the burden to provide reliable sources is on the person making the change (see WP:PROVEIT) or in this case proposing it. You may reopen this request (by changing "answered=yes" back to "answered=no") and, beneath all of the text I have added, supply a reliable source supporting your claim.

2. "and Also add performer as one of her occupations." You have not provided a reliable source supporting this change, and you have also not provided any reason for the change to be made. You are welcome to reopen this request and supply these. However, I believe that the change will not be implemented without consensus being reached, as I do not see any precedent for this; articles for successful artists known for their performances (Elvis Presley, Michael Jackson, Madonna) do not have "performer" listed among the occupations.

3. "Include Multi-genre artist because she transcends throughout music." You have not provided one or more reliable sources demonstrating that Beyoncé is an artist of numerous music genres. You are welcome to reopen this request and do so. However, as with the request above, I do not see any precedent for this; successful artists known for encompassing a wide variety of genres throughout their careers (Michael Jackson, Bruno Mars, the Bee Gees) are never described as "multi-genre" within their respective articles. Furthermore, Beyoncé is not particularly known for a diverse range of music styles; this made evident in her infobox, which lists contemporary R&B and pop as her only genres.

4. "Lastly, include links to all her main music platforms such as Spotify, Tidal, apple etc." The purpose of this article is, as with any Wikipedia article, to provide information about the subject that is objective, verifiable, and encyclopedic; its purpose is not to promote Beyoncé or her music (see WP:PROMO and WP:LINKSPAM).

LifeofTau 02:47, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 September 2018

lgvc davcs hcbndvjh bzccaghb sc zv 27.99.85.18 (talk) 08:01, 21 September 2018 (UTC) ghlj

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Kpgjhpjm 08:30, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

Beyonce Knowel was born on September 4 1981,She has a Sister that also makes music — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rittynay lee (talk • contribs) 14:29, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 November 2018

2602:30A:C002:A620:BD35:6465:6746:F2BB (talk) 22:43, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

Beyonce 1965,4 September I would like to change Beyonce' s birthday.

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. DannyS712 (talk) 23:00, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 December 2018

Myaflypiejam (talk) 16:57, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

Beyoncé had the privilege to meet the most famous Molly O'Toole at a bar in Portlaoise Co.Laois. Beyoncé said "she is the only woman i can respect other than my mama".

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. DannyS712 (talk) 17:39, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

New Beyoncé Image

Since a new era is nearly upon us, SKERR SKERR we shuld chnage Bey's profile photo from the FWT to a Coachella one such as: https://www.beyonce.com/uploads/2018/04/cache/-q6Kk458jhUO_1280x1280_KaMXZQjO.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.71.71.236 (talk • contribs) 9:36, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

Images on Wikipedia must comply with the image use policy. If there is a more suitable image that is free to use, then you are welcome to suggest it. Nzd (talk) 10:12, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

References

Wow really? Ana jerie (talk) 14:54, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on February 5, 2019

Carmona.kristine (talk) 00:46, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. DannyS712 (talk) 00:56, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Effect on Women

Beyonce makes her music for people to relate to. The variety in her music conveys the message that there is nothing wrong with the emotions that women often feel and that they are natural. Songs like "***Flawless" and "Run The World (Girls)" tell women that they are strong and powerful. In contrast, songs like "Sandcastles" and "Don't Hurt Yourself" show that even the strongest people deal with sadness and anger like everyone else, and that that's not a bad thing. She also preaches that being in love does not make one less strong. Songs like "Crazy In Love" and "***Flawless" show women how positive being in a relationship can be for someone, and that it does not take away their independence or strength. By preaching these messages to her fans, she has proven to be a good role model for women all around the world who are figuring things out for themselves in a male dominated world. She also speaks the message of body positivity and female empowerment, which helps make people feel that they are accepted just how they are. She is one of the biggest artists in the world, so her message reaches millions of people.Jholben (talk) 02:20, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

References

First solo song

The following sentence (Beyoncé's first solo recording was a feature on Jay-Z's "'03 Bonnie & Clyde" that was released in October 2002, peaking at number four on the U.S. Billboard Hot 100 chart.) is incorrect because she released "Work It Out" earlier in 2002 and featured on "I Got That" in 2000. Aoba47 (talk) 20:09, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 April 2019

May I please edit this page. Some of it has false information and I would to like to correct Ellamalfan123 (talk) 19:55, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone will add them for you, or if you have an account, you can wait until you are autoconfirmed and edit the page yourself. NiciVampireHeart 19:57, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

Updated net worth 2019

<httpsp://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-celebrities/singers/beyonce-knowles-net-worth/> reference Purocaribe (talk) 11:59, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 May 2019

Makavelio (talk) 18:33, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

hi wiki,

I’m a big fan of your site! I found broken links the other day and wanted to let you know about it.

The page where the link appears is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyoncé

The broken URL is "Beyoncé Knowles settles with gaming company". Retrieved May 15, 2013.[dead link] , "Rihanna advises Idols to work like they have a hit". CablePulse 24.[dead link], Classen, Stephanie (March 28, 2009). "Beyoncé no ordinary performer". The StarPhoenix. Retrieved March 31, 2009.[dead link]

I found a similar page, even better that even has a link from Wikipedia. Do you want to update the links?

https://spinninnews.com/beyonce-lands-adidas-deal/#.XNHKO_kzaM8, https://spinninnews.com/beyonce-fans-rejoice-as-lemonade-is-finally-available-on-all-streaming-platforms/#.XNHLQ_kzaM8,

https://spinninnews.com/beyonces-lemonade-returns-to-billboard-top-10-homecoming-jumps-up/#.XNHLY_kzaM8

Keep up the excellent work! Thanks!

Marko

 Not done: None of the 3 "spinninnews" links you provide verify the information in the article currently sourced by the dead links. NiciVampireHeart 08:07, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

Homecoming

There's a stub for the upcoming Netflix documentary at Homecoming (2019 film). ---Another Believer _(Talk) 00:08, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

What kind of stub exactly?? Tshepiso Matlaba (talk) 20:36, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Stub. The article on Homecoming is no longer a stub, but it was when Another Believer posted here. ---Sluzzelin talk 20:39, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Crazy in Love is not Beyoncé's first solo recording

The article claims "Beyoncé's first solo recording was a feature on Jay-Z's "'03 Bonnie & Clyde" that was released in October 2002" - but the discography notes "Work It Out" is her first solo recording (released June 11, 2002). The artikel Crazy in Love notes: "By July 2002, Beyoncé had already recorded several songs which would appear on Dangerously in Love", so Crazy in Love can not be the first solo recording. --2A0A:A541:48E2:0:5C65:187:FB99:1233 (talk) 10:18, 4 September 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:9009:D02:3E00:310A:25E5:6EE0:5223 (talk) 20:33, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Beyonce is a Singer-Dancer

MODERATOR: There are countless singers, but there is another category of singer-dancer. She is also a model. Therefore, the opening sentence should be tweaked to: Beyoncé Giselle Knowles-Carter (/biːˈjɒnseɪ/ bee-YON-say; born September 4, 1981)[4] is an American singer-dancer, songwriter, actress, and model. 2601:580:A:7031:B41A:E77F:5125:4347 (talk) 11:30, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Can you point us to a well-respected publication that calls her a singer-dancer or model? Because that's what will give you leverage here. Binksternet (talk) 14:50, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes...and therefore moderator is right about the the opening sentence according to Knowles Allexandra Senòrita Belcalis (talk) 18:49, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

update

"Beyonce Surprise Drops Live Coachella Album, Netflix Doc Now Streaming". NPR.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bashimule (talk • contribs) 08:51, 9 January 2020 (UTC) 

Pleasure on you....cause we don't have any guarantee that the album was glorious Allexandra Senòrita Belcalis (talk) 18:52, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Destiny's child appreciation

When did Knowles realize to build new group of girls singer's called Destiny's child? or they just came in a bottom of an space to being a part of group. Give a guarantee then Allexandra Senòrita Belcalis (talk) 19:07, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Overdetails

I just read this article and some sections seems "overdetailed", in excess. For example, "Legacy" and "Achievements" and that's difficult to read. Also has verbiage, for example several lists of Forbes and Time in "Public image" or others sections that can be summarized and simplify in a few words, same with comments of her linked-group Destiny's child. This is a encyclopedia, not a fan magazine of accomplishments. --Apoxyomenus (talk) 17:14, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Beyonce's career tour gross

Pollstar has released an article on the highest grossing female acts in history and Beyonce is ranked 3rd with over 1 billion dollars. She is one of three women to pass the billion dollar threshold and one of only 11 acts to do so. She also extends her lead as the highest grossing Black artist in music history. Please add this information to her Legacy and Achievement categories. The individual that has been tampering with her awards also needs to be banned

Here is the pollstar article link: https://www.pollstar.com/article/ladies-might-box-office-triumph-by-top-female-earners-144117 (190.80.50.59 (talk) 13:43, 16 May 2020 (UTC))

Beyoncé’s mother’s maiden name

Was Beyonce Knowles’s mother born ‘Celestine Ann Beyincé’ or ‘Celestine Ann Beyoncé’? According to all of the biographies about Beyoncé, her mother was born with the surname “Beyincé”.--EsotericJoe (talk) 00:19, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Beyoncé, of course, is derived from Tina's maiden name, Beyincé. Because only one of her brothers had a son, Tina had feared that her family name would die out. “I said, ‘Oh God, we’ll run out of Beyincés,’” she told the journalist Touré for Rolling Stone—thus her idea of naming her daughter in a variant of Beyincé. Her father Lumis Beyincé, didn’t much like the idea though. “My family was not happy,” Tina confirmed. “My dad said, ‘She’s gonna to be mad at you, because that’s a last name.’ And I’m like, ‘It’s not a last name to anybody but you guys!’”

— J. Randy Taraborrelli, Becoming Beyoncé: The Untold Story, pages 27-28

--EsotericJoe (talk) 00:40, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

And then we have an instagram message dated April 25, 2020 written by Tina Knowles at https://www.instagram.com/p/B_aqEJ7jMHc/ where she stated "Guys Beyince’ And Beyonce are pronounced the exact same way. It is five Beyoncé children that my daddy had. Only the first three had the same spelling Beyince’ me and my youngest brother had Beyonce’ on our birth certificates . So however they spelled it on our birth certificate is how we spelled it also. But it is all pronounced the same please do not try to correct me on Pronunciation on my own last name". Seems fairly clear what she means and what she states about herself should be considered authoritative. The other sources got it wrong. Geraldo Perez (talk) 00:56, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

It’s odd. One moment she’s telling people her maiden is spelt ‘Beyincé’ and then the next moment she is telling people it is spelt ‘Beyoncé’.--EsotericJoe (talk) 04:28, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

She pronounces them the same which adds to the confusion and the transcription from an interview may have assumed what she stated matched was her father's name spelling. It is strange but she wrote the message on Instagram herself so there should be no transcription issues there. Geraldo Perez (talk) 04:40, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Birth name

@AshMusique: Naming laws in Texas do not allow accents in birth names. Her birth name is Beyonce, not Beyoncé. I agree with your point about it being confusing. When I originally edited this information into her article, I added "known as Beyoncé" to the lead for clarification, but another user removed it, citing repetition and then that it was the article name. I can somewhat understand not including it in the lead and even the Early life section, but it absolutely should be included in the infobox. The birth name parameter is for the birth name, not current name or name one is best known by. Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 03:44, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Beyoncé 2019.png

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:07, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 June 2020

Change {{short description|American singer, songwriter, producer, and actress}}

to {{short description|American singer, songwriter, producer, actress and MOTIVATIONAL SPEAKER}} ImxKy (talk) 19:49, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Doesn't appear to have been a major aspect of her career. – Thjarkur (talk) 20:51, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Other Names Edit Request

Queen Bey and Queen B should be added to the Other Names section in her stats. She refers to herself by this name in her songs and is widely referred to by this moniker in the media, in internet culture, and by her fans, as well as in casual conversation. ConnorD88 (talk) 11:33, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Birth name

Please change the birth name information in the Infobox from this:

Beyonce Giselle Knowles

to the following:

Beyoncé Giselle Knowles

Someone changed the last e on her first name & no one has fixed it, so please fix Beyoncé's birth name.

 Not done We can’t, because the state in which she was born doesn’t allow accented letters on birth certificates. Trillfendi (talk) 12:39, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Ann Marie Lastrassi

I'd like to know the source that shows Beyonce's real name as Ann Marie Lastrassi, or are you all just going to leave that info in there like it's fact, only furthering the cause for white misinformation and supremacy? Valhalla1207 (talk) 22:47, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Seems like that name was added earlier today without a source. I removed it as a BLP policy violation and possible vandalism. Thank you for pointing that out. Aoi (青い) (talk) 22:52, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Spillover from some Instagram / Twitter conspiracy nonsense which states that Beyoncé is actually a “dark Italian” (whatever that means) named Ann Marie Lastrassi who pretends to be Black for the sake of “greater audience appeal”. Not sure if the edits were made by believers or to troll / mock them. DES (talk) 14:37, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Tra l'altro Lastrassi non è un cognome, it isn't an italian surname.. --2.226.12.134 (talk) 12:46, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 July 2020

Include filmmaker in her list of titles (singer, songwriter, etc). She has produced 4 films up to this point (Life is but a dream, Lemonade, Homecoming and Black is King) and it only makes sense for it to be acknowledged 41.57.208.27 (talk) 14:05, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. P,TO 19104 (talk) (contribs) 19:38, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

associated artists

should chloe x halle be under the associated artist list.......... Thedivinebey (talk) 22:04, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Only if they meet Template:Infobox_musical_artist#associated_acts' criteria. © Tbhotch^™ (en-3). 22:12, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Should she be defined as a songwriter in the lead?

Should Beyoncé be defined as a songwriter in the lead of her article? isento (talk) 04:51, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm converting this thread into an RfC, for the reasons that were stated below. Given the subject's ubiquitous cultural presence, I think it's better to get a consensus on this. isento (talk) 11:19, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Votes

• No - Per MOS:LEADSENTENCE, the lead should define the subject for nonspecialist readers, and "songwriter" is not a defining characteristic; it will likely give readers a misleading impression of her actual role in making songs. isento (talk) 11:19, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
• Yes - Per WP:DEFINING, a defining characteristic is one that has been commonly and consistently attributed to the subject in reliable sources, which songwriting certainly has been in this case. Bgkc4444 (talk) 18:06, 24 August 2020 (UTC)Bgkc4444

  Certainly not the case. isento (talk) 17:45, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

• No, unless I'm missing something, she is barely a singer-songwriter (if you stretch the term), but not a songwriter. © Tbhotch^™ 18:54, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
• No, unless there are independent sources that define her as a "songwriter". Idealigic (talk) 21:07, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
• No — I saw more sources calling her as a singer rather than singer-songwriter even. But we've independent sources defining her as a singer-songwriter. I guess "songwriter" should be very unpopular or almost inexistent in case if we have sources. --Apoxyomenus (talk) 21:46, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
• Comment: MOS:ROLEBIO would apply here. Are "record producer, dancer, actress and filmmaker" "noteworthy position(s) or role(s)" too? Some1 (talk) 23:06, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Actress, yes, the rest, no. © Tbhotch^™ 23:08, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes they are. Beyonce has produced records throughout her career (including some independently), is well-known as a dancer, and has made several films (including one which received a Peabody Award and another which received 6 Emmy nominations). These are all attested to in reliable sources and are certainly "integral to the person's notability" as per MOS:ROLEBIO. Bgkc4444 (talk) 19:23, 27 August 2020 (UTC)Bgkc4444

Dancer? Dancing on her tours doesn't make her a dancer, and which records has she produced (other than her own)? © Tbhotch^™ 19:36, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

These activities can be discussed further down in the lead, but not in the defining first sentence. isento (talk) 17:46, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

• Yes - Beyoncé has been called a songwriter by both reliable third-party sources and those who have worked with her, therefore it is definitely a defining characteristic. Timeheist (talk) 18:59, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
• Tending towards 'no'. By omitting it in the first sentence, we wouldn't be saying she's NOT a songwriter. If there's controversy among reliable sources whether this is a legitimate characteristic or attribute then why post it this prominently in the lede? (especially when there are characteristics and attributes far more dominant in terms of how they are reported in the media). But I won't care if it remains either. Weak no. ---Sluzzelin talk 19:43, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
• Tending towards no, per Sluzzelin. If we decided to keep the "songwriter" role, then we had to address the controversy on the lead section. Something like "Beyoncé has been credited as a co-writer in majority of her songs, but her songwriting contributions were often disputed. Bluesatellite (talk) 21:12, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Discussion

Fair question, given her songwriting track record is controversial, and her contributions seem to be often marginal ([1]), unless an independent source can confirm otherwise? Given the definitions of songwriter available here and elsewhere, she seems to fit it only if we use the term loosely. Which begs the question, is that really helpful to readers understanding this article's subject? isento (talk) 04:51, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

If this helps, there have been interviews with producers who have witnessed Beyonce writing entire lyrics to songs and observations regarding her production and musicianship abilities. The source is a book called "House of Hits: The Story of Houston's Gold Star/Sugarhill Recording Studios"- p.239-240 Cleopatra5595 (talk) 05:42, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

A bit, yeah, but all I see is an interview with Workman (not really an independent source) detailing her having written lyrics for one song while in her old group twenty years ago. In any case, I've added a footnote alongside "songwriter" in the lead with qualifying info about her writing credits, although I would like to see more comments here. "Songwriter" still does not appear to be a defining characteristic for this person, which is what the lead should define in its opening (WP:LEAD). isento (talk) 05:52, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

The most reliable source for songwriting is actually the people who involved in the writing process itself. Dan Workman is only the audio engineer of the record, he has nothing to do with producing, let alone songwriting. Rob Fusari who did actually write and produce "Bootylicous" said to Billboard that Beyonce was lying that she was the one who came up with the song's idea.[2]. And that's not the only time such things happened. Bluesatellite (talk) 06:12, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. I've included that in the article. isento (talk) 06:25, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

The fact that a significant portion of her recognition and awards is for her songwriting necessitates the inclusion of this role in the lead, as it is a defining characteristic of her and her career. According to WP:DEFINING, "A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently define the subject as having", which is certainly true in this case. It also brings the following example: "a film actor who holds a law degree should be categorized as a film actor, but not as a lawyer unless his or her legal career was notable in its own right or relevant to his acting career". Beyonce as a songwriter is certainly relevant to her career as an artist. Nothing about using the word "songwriter" for Beyonce contradicts the songwriter article or any Wikipedia guideline. Bgkc4444 (talk) 18:06, 24 August 2020 (UTC)Bgkc4444

A Google search for Beyonce and songwriter appears to lead with reliable sources profiling a few of the songwriters who've written for her and a Vanity Fair piece comparing Beyonce to Meryl Streep, Frank Sinatra, and Billie Holiday as artists who are "celebrated [not] because [they] write such good parts, but because [they] create them out of the words that are given". isento (talk) 21:31, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

The ASCAP is a performer's organization, not an independent awards body. isento (talk) 21:38, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

:: Please look further. From this year, this article calls her a songwriter, this one does so twice, and so on. Bgkc4444 (talk) 21:56, 24 August 2020 (UTC)Bgkc4444

One of those sources calls her a "singer-songwriter", which she clearly isn't. Maybe you'd notice that if you were as discriminatory with sources that favor your position as you were with sources that don't. isento (talk) 22:26, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

I've now cited several more sources/controversies to the article surrounding her songwriting credits/claims. Perhaps you should take that into consideration. isento (talk) 23:03, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Nothing you have said means that Beyoncé is not a songwriter. The fact that she has had co-writers and a source called her a singer-songwriter does not negate the fact that she is a songwriter in any way. You source your contentious claims about living persons to unreliable sources, and therefore this material does not belong in the article (see WP:BLPRS). Your material also violates WP:NPOV and you have given undue weight to minority views. Your assertions in this discussion similarly violate these rules. Timeheist (talk) 18:59, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

As well as the arguments being based on unreliable sources, Isento also brings a claim by one collaborator who later recounted it. Yet there are many more collaborators who have spoken about Beyonce's writing, such as producer Dre, who said here "She was 100 percent involved. She put her mind to the music and did her thing. If she had a melody idea, she came up with the words. If we had the words, she came up with the melody. She’s a beast." The article continued, "When pressed further about assumptions that Bey's songwriting contributions are minimal, Dre said, "Haters, that’s their job: to do everything to discredit brilliant people." No doubt, Beyoncé has been discredited by many over the years—and held to standards that don't exist for many of her white peers, in a racist fashion—but a number of her collaborators have always come to her defense." This includes Ryan Tedder, who said "The whole melody, she wrote it spontaneously in the studio". Similarly, Carla Marie Williams said here that Beyonce "got to work on how she wanted to say the words properly. She's a visionary herself, so she started helping us find the direction of the song. She wanted it to be a female anthem, and we wanted to address certain issues. [Months later] we were still working on the second verse, trying to refine it. It wasn't just like, "Yeah, take the song." We really crafted it all together." Similar statements have been made by various additional collaborators, such as here, here and here. These are all stories published only since her last album, and there are many more reaching back over the past couple decades. It is impossible to say, without bias, that Beyonce is not considered a songwriter. Bgkc4444 (talk) 19:14, 27 August 2020 (UTC)Bgkc4444

Bogus argument. They're not unreliable - The Daily Beast's chronicle of factual events is echoed in the Vulture, the Sunday Independent, Billboard, The Boombox, even Daryl Easlea's biography on Beyonce. The collaborator didn't recount the claim - as I stated in my edit summary, and had you actually read the source(s), you'd see one interview is referring to the producer's musical idea, the other to the titular concept. Tedder is cited in the Sunday Independent source as "muddying the waters" about her songwriting credits. To deny there isn't a controversy is to be blinded by one's fandom, as Kritselis suggests in the Sunday Independent. isento (talk) 20:42, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Timeheist, nothing anyone has cited here demonstrates she is consistently and reliably defined as a songwriter, which is the threshold here: "A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently" (WP:DEFINING) Hired guns close to the event which is Beyonce's purported songwriting are primary sources. isento (talk) 20:49, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Use common sense. A songwriter writes a song. She has exclusively written parts of songs, or a part of a song. She is a part-song-writer. A co-writer. There. I've broken it down in plain English. isento (talk) 20:56, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

The Daily Beast is a reliable source for news, not for the opinion of a writer spreading contentious claims about a living person. The Sunday Independent and The Boombox are unreliable sources for this also. Fusari did recount his claim and Tedder never said that. You're doing original research. The former told Billboard "she told Barbara about how she came up with the idea for the track" and later told EW "she had the ‘Bootylicious’ concept in her head. That was totally her." The latter told the Guardian that Beyonce rewrote the bridge and therefore she is a songwriter. He didn't suggest at all the Beyonce steals credits, he just said that he doesn't know about other songs. As always Isento, we shouldn't be cherry-picking negative points and misrepresenting sources just because we don't like the person who the article is about, and then give these points undue weight.

As you agreed before, "The most reliable source for songwriting is actually the people who involved in the writing process itself". You base your arguments on unreliable sources (including a comment by a random musician, which of course is not relevant when you're trying to find reliable sources for contentious claims about living persons) and the only source you have from a person who actually was involved in the writing process later recounted the claim. I brought half a dozen statements from those involved in the writing process, but of course you deny them. As the source I brought earlier said, Beyonce's detractors are holding her "to standards that don't exist for many of her white peers, in a racist fashion". She is a songwriter. Period. Her co-writing songs doesn't make her not a songwriter. No-one claims that so I don't understand how that's forming the base of your argument. Your arguments seems to be changing and you seem to be giving a few at once because none are strong on their own. Is she not a songwriter because she has co-writers? Because you claim she steals songs? Because you claim she makes marginal contributions? Because you claim it isn't a notable role of hers? Please choose one. Bgkc4444 (talk) 17:56, 28 August 2020 (UTC)Bgkc4444

They're not contentious claims. The source is used to verify that she's been criticized by journalists and musicians for songwriting credits, which is an undeniable observation. The only opinion cited from the Daily Beast's Kevin Fallon is the trend has redefined popular conceptions of songwriting, with Fallon saying, "the village of authors and composers that populate Lemonade, [Kanye West']s Life of Pablo, [Rihanna's] Anti, or [Drake's] Views—all of which are still reflective of an artist’s voice and vision ... speaks to the truth of the way the industry’s top artists create their music today: by committee." (Which is actually an argument in favor of your position...) The Boombox source cited in the article clarifies Fusari's controversy concerned credit for the musical idea (the riff, the sample), not the lyrical concept. Should I repeat that for the nth time to you? isento (talk) 18:02, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Your hypocritical, too-long-to-read accusations only serve to alienate me from talking to you and to isolate yourself in this discussion. The majority of editors here agree "songwriter" is not definitive. Are they also "cherry-picking negative points and misrepresenting sources because [they] don't like the person who the article is about"? Maybe they're just too stupid to recognize her almighty talents? isento (talk) 18:09, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

For the record, in case you thought otherwise, I don't know Beyonce personally. And I actually happen to like the music she sings and puts her name to. isento (talk) 18:12, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

You should ascribe the first two sentences of the paragraph to the authors of the sources, provide more reliable sources than ones which quote a Fox News article full of racist dogwhistles, and properly represent all views. The Boombox made their own interpretation of the interview. When making contentious claims about living persons, it is best to quote directly from an interview if there is a dispute on its meaning, therefore "he told Barbara about how she came up with the idea for the track" and the converse "she had the ‘Bootylicious’ concept in her head" is what should be used in this article.

Focusing on what your original argument was, that Beyonce should be considered a songwriter if this role has been commonly and consistently attributed to her in reliable sources, you cannot deny that this is true here. It was the case during the Destiny's Child era, the Dangerously In Love era, the B'Day era, the I Am... Sasha Fierce era, the 4 era, the BEYONCE era, the Lemonade era, until today. One cannot say that Beyonce has not been commonly and consistently described as a songwriter, without bias. Bgkc4444 (talk) 18:04, 3 September 2020 (UTC)Bgkc4444

Dude, the producer literally said, "she knew what she wanted to say". How do you get musical idea (as opposed to lyrical concept) from this? isento (talk) 01:24, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Well, that first source you cited is describing a relative status within the group, calling her "the group's primary songwriter"; of the three members she appears to have more credits for co-writing, looking at the extensive writing lists at those Destiny's Child album articles. The BBC and Redeye sources are before the exact nature of her "writing" contributions came to light (say, for instance, getting a writing credit simply for making an off-the-cuff vocal alteration during a song's bridge, as reported here), and the ABC News source is another that misuses the singer-songwriter title, which I suspect you still don't grasp either... isento (talk) 01:32, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

So, in conclusion, she does not appear to be reliably (and not much consistently) defined as a songwriter. isento (talk) 03:32, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

(side note) isento, could you try harder posting something definite the first time around rather than tweaking n times thereafter? (full disclosure, I'm guilty of the same syndrome, but its potential nuisance has been explained to me) ---Sluzzelin talk 18:36, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Haha, sure. I'll do my best. isento (talk) 18:49, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Name

The opening lines of the Early life section need reworking: it's left me thoroughly confused. It states that "Beyonce Giselle Knowles was born in Houston", that her mother's maiden name was Beyonce, and that "Beyoncé's name is a tribute to her mother's maiden name". So is the implication that her first name was originally Beyonce (without an accent on the final e), but that she added an accent to form her stage name? Or was her mother's name Beyonce, but when the baby was born her parents added the accent and named her Beyoncé? Or, alternatively, was her mother's maiden name actually Beyoncé? It doesn't help that the source at n18 is an ancient Fox News bio from 2008 via the Internet Archive that doesn't appear to do accents at all. Clarity please. GrindtXX (talk) 15:21, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Great questions,the name "Beyonce" is Tina Knowles' last name ,"Beyoncé" and "Beyonce" are different ,Beyoncé's parents pronounced her name differently. Nocles (talk) 23:43, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Her influential contributions to music, dance, and fashion have established her as a global icon in the history of popular music.

I’m the one who edited this statement in the first paragraph, but I wonder why it does not show up when you first look up Beyoncé. AfroWorld33 (talk) 22:25, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

That sentence alone goes against MOS:LEAD and WP:NPOV. © Tbhotch^™ 22:51, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 October 2020

I just wanted to suggest that the net worth of Beyoncé be changed to $500,000. DESTINYYYYY12345 (talk) 22:34, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 22:40, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 August 2020

Beyoncé Giselle Knowles-Carter better known as Beyoncé, is an American singer, songwriter, dancer, actress, entrepreneur, record producer and film maker born in Houston, Texas on September 4, 1981. She was 14 years old when she rose to fame and stardom. Haliomerania (talk) 13:45, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done This is way too promotional and is already covered in the article.Praxidicae (talk) 13:46, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Beyonce knowles will know for her vocals, dance moves and songwriting is a famous american female singer Joyce bongekile mhlongo (talk) 18:41, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

What about her activism Nocles (talk) 03:18, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

And her flims Nocles (talk) 03:19, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 November 2020

Queen Bey Camcam1234 (talk) 01:11, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. -ink&fables «talk» 11:10, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Beyoncé Black Is King Still.png

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:38, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

@Robotic Clone: Please stop adding the photo which has been nominated for a speedy deletion into the article. Thanks.--LeftiePete (talk) 12:37, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Actually, Robotic Clone has now cleared copyright for use of this image. However, there's something still not right. Robotic Clone – whose account was created a week ago – has now tried to make this the lede image nine times – and has been reverted by 5 different human editors, plus CommonsDelinker (initially because of copyvio issues; latterly because of Beyoncé's distracting costume). The only reason Robotic Clone has ever given for preferring this image over the existing one is that it's "more recent" (by one year). Robotic Clone uploaded the image, and in clearing copyright appears to have declared that they personally created it. (I don't have access to the permission correspondence: maybe someone who does could check it out.) This is starting to look like a case of WP:COI. GrindtXX (talk) 14:18, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Copyright clearance or no clearance, the image is more a depiction of the goofy costume she is wearing than a representation of Beyoncé. For this reason it is inappropriate as her infobox image. -- WikiPedant (talk) 16:35, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Why are u so negative Hewoaq (talk) 22:27, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Please restore it Hewoaq (talk) 22:29, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Photo of Beyoncé102020.png

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 00:10, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Why did u do it Tech bot Hewoaq (talk) 22:32, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Infobox

The lead of Lady Gaga's article (a featured article) says: "Stefani Joanne Angelina Germanotta (/ˈstɛfəni ˌdʒɜːrməˈnɒtə/ STEF-ən-ee JUR-mə-NOT-ə) (born March 28, 1986), known professionally as Lady Gaga, is an American singer, songwriter, record producer, actress and businesswoman."

Beyoncé is also known for being a singer, songwriter, record producer, actress and businesswoman. If the lead of Lady Gaga's article is not seen as promotional, I do not understand why would adding "songwriter, record producer and businesswoman" to the lead of Beyoncé's article be so, esp. since Beyoncé definitely fulfills all those roles.

As explained in the article, Beyoncé has received co-writing credits for most of the songs recorded with Destiny's Child and nearly all the original songs she has recorded solo. Songwriting (regardless of songwriting controversies) is her main profession next to being a singer. I'd add the three titles mentioned above or at least "songwriter" to the lead, once again, regardless of songwriting controversies. Beyoncé was awarded for her songwriting, and in "May 2011, Billboard magazine listed Beyoncé at number 17 on their list of the Top 20 Hot 100 Songwriters for having co-written eight singles that hit number one on the Billboard Hot 100 chart."

Note (regarding the 'Songwriting credits' section): The article says: "The controversy surrounding her songwriting credits began with interviews in which she attributed herself as the songwriter for songs in which she was a co-writer or for which her contributions were marginal. In a cover story for Vanity Fair in 2005, she claimed to have "written" several number-one songs for Destiny's Child, contrary to the credits, which list her as a co-writer among others."

It is common for artists to say they "wrote a song" when they actually mean they "co-wrote" a song. They say they "wrote" the song for short, but in Beyoncé's case, it is assumed she was of bad faith... And it is not too uncommon for certain artists to receive a songwriting credit for "marginal" contributions. For these reasons, I am questioning the relevance of parts of that section. qedk, TruthGuardians, MaJic, GiuliaZB, JG66, BD2412 what do you think?

• EDIT: I now see that consensus was recently reached to remove "songwriter" from the lead, but that does not apply to the Infobox. Israell (talk) 00:52, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

I see that an editor added "record producer", which I approve. Israell (talk) 21:14, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

The lead sentence of Madonna's article also has the same problem. Here's the discussion: [3]. I'd add those professions back myself, but I'd rather some consensus is reached. Israell (talk) 21:27, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

There was a consensus of "no" about this earlier --> Talk:Beyoncé/Archive_13#Should_she_be_defined_as_a_songwriter_in_the_lead? isento (talk) 22:26, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Relevant guideline: In general, a position, activity, or role should not be included in the lead paragraph if: a) the role is not otherwise discussed in the lead (per MOS:LEAD, don't tease the reader), b) the role is not significantly covered in the body of the article, or, c) the role is auxiliary to a main profession of the person ... (Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biography#cite_note-1) isento (talk) 22:30, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

isento, consensus applied to the lead, not the Infobox. Songwriting is definitely one of Beyoncé's main professions, and that is well-documented. As explained in the article, Beyoncé has received co-writing credits for most of the songs recorded with Destiny's Child and nearly all the original songs she has recorded solo. Songwriting (regardless of songwriting controversies) is her main profession next to being a singer. The Infobox must therefore display it.

"Barely does production, and definitely not known for it." Not true. Barely? Beyoncé produced all of her studio albums, all of her live albums, most of her singles, etc. Beyoncé is quite known for production, and doing so flawlessly (get it - B) (song production, executive production, concerts/live album production, etc.), it's well-documented, and she has her own production company, Parkwood Entertainment. Some sources out of many more: . Israell (talk) 00:40, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

So as I see it, and I’m sure there may be more experienced editors, the info box must match what’s in the article. If consensus was reached to remove “song writer” from the lead, that doesn’t necessarily mean to remove it from info box, especially if mentioned throughout the article as being a songwriter. TruthGuardians (talk) 15:04, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Also, regarding a comment written by isento on the linked archived talk page, it is not true that an artist that has exclusively co-written songs is not a songwriter but only a co-writer or "part-song-writer." The article on songwriting makes it very clear co-writers incl. top-liners are indeed songwriters. Israell (talk) 15:06, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

The article does not make that clear. In fact, the only source supporting that section does not even use the term "songwriter" in its prose. The purpose of the infobox is to summarize the essentials of the article. It appears that most sources that discuss her songwriting meaningfully are sources questioning it, while those that don't are merely industry awards or accolades with no insight into it. isento (talk) 18:59, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

I am not going to sift thru all those citations (WP:REFBOMB) to verify your claims about her association with production (please quote relevant text). But in response to your claim in the recent edit summary, her songwriting is as well documented as it is well disputed. isento (talk) 17:56, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

There is no discussion in the article of her record production. There are credits in album articles, but there is no insight into what she actually does. And she does not appear to do it professionally, say as being paid to produce for another artist or projects other than her own, which is what being a producer suggests or entails, I believe. isento (talk) 18:01, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps we can reach a compromise and use Musician instead of songwriter or producer. A musician can do a variety of things but not be defined necessarily by one of those things. There is discussion of her singing and musicianship in a broad sense, so I would support "Singer and musician". isento (talk) 18:04, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Beyoncé is credited for co-writing nearly all of her solo songs as well as most of the Destiny's Child songs. Beyoncé currently has 346 songwriting credits on ASCAP. Here's the list: https://www.ascap.com/repertory#ace/writer/341826274/KNOWLES BEYONCE GISSELLE. Beyoncé Knowles is therefore a songwriter. I am aware of the controversy, the allegations, but that does not negate the fact she has co-written the vast majority of her songs. It is possible certain songs were written and she barely modified them, but that does not mean it is always the case. It is not up to Wikipedia to speculate and determine if Beyoncé Knowles is a "real" songwriter or not. People may have their opinion, but the fact she has 346 songwriting credits on ASCAP is verifiable. For instance, some people may not consider certain singers "real singers" or "real vocalists", but Wikipedia will still call them "singers" and "vocalists."

Britney has 72 song credits on BMI [4], much less than Beyoncé, and she is credited as a songwriter on Wikipedia. Mandy Moore, Debbie Gibson, Nicki Minaj, Rihanna, Lil' Kim, Foxy Brown, Ava Max, Dua Lipa, Lily Allen, Christina Aguilera, P!nk, Solange Knowles (Beyoncé's sister), Farrah Franklin (formerly of Destiny's Child), Kim Petras and many more recording artists on Wikipedia are defined as songwriters in the lead of their articles or at least the infobox of said articles. Once again, Wikipedia is about WP:V, and it is not up to us editors to make a judgement call on whether or not Beyoncé is indeed a songwriter in spite of verifiable registered ASCAP songwriting credits. Israell (talk) 20:16, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

As for the sources I've listed earlier, they pertain to her song production, concert/live album production, soundtrack album production, movie production, etc. Israell (talk) 20:10, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

It is up to editors to make judgement calls. All the ASCAP source proves is she's been credited. It is not an independent source. isento (talk) 18:55, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

@Israell: Thanks for taking this up and good luck with it! @Isento: There was no consensus reached previously so I don't know where you got that from. As I have previously said, you cherry-picked negative comments from completely random musicians instead of the larger number of positive comments from her actual collaborators that fully explained her songwriting ability and style. "It appears that most sources that discuss her songwriting meaningfully are sources questioning it" and "And she does not appear to do it professionally, say as being paid to produce for another artist or projects other than her own, which is what being a producer suggests or entails" are just more of your unsubstantiated and incorrect assertions. I once again hope you act correctly and do the right thing for this section. Bgkc4444 (talk) 19:43, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Eight people said "no". Two said "yes". Sounds like a consensus to me. isento (talk) 21:27, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Polling is not a substitute for discussion. Bgkc4444 (talk) 21:37, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Besides, the consensus did not apply to the Infobox. Beyoncé has 346 legal, official songwriting credits. Whether one considers her a "real" songwriter or not is irrelevant in that section of the article. I agree w/ Bgkc4444. Israell (talk) 00:52, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm sorry you overlooked the large block of text below and adjacent to those votes. But that constituted discussion. isento (talk) 01:22, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

I am not disputing the relevancy of songwriting credits. I am saying there were valid objections from as many, if not more, editors than you two in the previous discussion, which you are dismissing on the technicality that it did not specify the infobox. Unless I am mistaken, the heading of this section includes "lead", does it not? isento (talk) 01:24, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

I think the clear controversy surrounding the songwriting credits -- non-independent-source testimonials notwithstanding -- demands this discussion be more nuanced than what you're providing it. This is an encyclopedia, not merely an office of public records. Articles are to be based largely on third-party sources, and while there are industry accolades, passing mentions of her as a songwriter, and organizational records, there are also more in-depth-coverage articles focusing squarely on her songwriting and questions surrounding it, and we ought to use the best sources on the particular topic being discussed (WP:STICKTOSOURCE). Negative comments were not "cherry-picked from random musicians". If you do not think that questioning the idea of her as a songwriter even merits discussion, then you are not respecting the fact that there is a reasonable allowance for speculation, suggestion, and personal knowledge in talk page discussions (Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines#Central_points). isento (talk) 01:39, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

You are free to disagree with my ideas and conclusions as it pertains to the content being discussed. But stop suggesting I'm acting incorrectly. I'm not obligated to agree with you, especially if I've thoughtfully elucidated my concerns so you'd get where I'm coming from. Start another RfC, poll more editors, reach a new consensus, etc, if you don't like where I'm arriving at. isento (talk) 01:42, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

And please stop bringing up other articles (WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS). I'm not in charge of potential errors elsewhere and cannot be expected to answer for them, especially when these pop-icon articles tend to attract overzealous fans who tend to lose sight of editorial judgement... isento (talk) 01:48, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

@Isento: That did not constitute discussion. The only people who engaged in discussion (and not just voted with their opinion) were Timeheist, you and me. As WP:PNSD says: "Wikipedia works by building consensus. When conflicts arise, they are resolved through discussion, debate and collaboration. While not forbidden, polls should be used with care. When polls are used, they should ordinarily be considered a means to help in determining consensus, but do not let them become your only determining factor. While polling forms an integral part of several processes (such as Wikipedia:Articles for deletion), polls are generally not used for article development. Remember that Wikipedia is not a democracy; even when polls appear to be "votes", most decisions on Wikipedia are made on the basis of consensus, not on vote-counting or majority rule. In summary, polling is not a substitute for discussion."

Negative comments were cherry-picked from random musicians. In what world does a Reddit user telling a songwriter - who never even worked with Beyonce before - an unsubstantiated (and false) claim about Beyonce's songwriting and asking her thoughts on that "fact" constitute a reliable source of commentary on Beyonce's songwriting style? I can no longer tell whether you are doing this on purpose or you still don't see it, but do you not agree that it would be much better to fill the section about Beyonce's songwriting style with material that explains how Beyonce writes songs (i.e. her collaborative approach) using reliable sources from people who are actually privy to such information, instead of including it with comments from random musicians just because they support the "Beyonce can't write and is a thief" claim you so desperately want to include?

"If you do not think that questioning the idea of her as a songwriter even merits discussion, then you are not respecting the fact that there is a reasonable allowance for speculation, suggestion, and personal knowledge in talk page discussions" - No idea where you got that from?

"I've thoughtfully elucidated my concerns so you'd get where I'm coming from" - Is this meant to be a joke? You never elucidated your concerns thoughtfully. I even asked you to clarify what your concerns were in the previous discussion yet you never answered nor actually responded to my points, and instead continued with your typical personal attacks and insults on my intelligence. Bgkc4444 (talk) 11:52, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Wow, look at you tell me. isento (talk) 15:10, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

When I started this discussion, I mentioned the lead because I had not seen the previous discussion (regarding the "songwriter" title in the lead). The discussion then shifted the infobox. I have listed 15 recording artists who are defined as "songwriters" in the lead or at least the infobox of their respective articles.

Also, as explained earlier, Gaga is defined in the lead (and also the infobox) of her (featured) article as a "singer, songwriter, record producer, actress and businesswoman." As for Miley Cyrus, she is defined in the lead and the infobox of her article as a "singer, songwriter, actress, and record producer." As for Kylie Minogue, she is defined in the lead and the infobox of her article as a "singer, songwriter, actress, record producer and television judge." Are those artists known for generally producing records for other artists? No. As for Beyoncé, she not only produced all of her own solo albums, all of her solo songs, she also produced all of Destiny's Child's studio albums (many songs) except for the first one.

[5]. isento (talk) 15:10, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

You'll notice that bandmates Kelly Rowland and Michelle Williams, just like Beyoncé, all have songwriting credits on Destiny_Fulfilled, Destiny's Child last studio album. Are we going to assume those are all stolen or bought credits, that they only changed one word or one note every time? Yes, suspicions were raised by some about Beyoncé's songwriting credits, and the article does cover such suspicions, but it doesn't negate the verifiable and well-documented fact Beyoncé is indeed a professional, regular songwriter and record producer. Besides, the songwriting credits section of the article does have comments from professional who agree Beyoncé does indeed write her songs. Israell (talk) 14:23, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

According to Lindsey Weber of Vulture (the source citing that "unsubstantiated claim"), "Despite having songwriting credits all over her new album, it’s open knowledge that Bey doesn't really write her own songs". Doesn't feel like an "unsubstantiated claim". Perry's response was to the spirit of that idea. Perry is among the industry's most prolific songwriters. I don't see how she is less reliable or relevant than a source who's worked closely with Beyonce, which according to our guidelines is a source we should depend on less, if at all in a bio, because it's not an independent source (WP:BASIC). isento (talk) 15:10, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

If I were to compile 346 parking tickets, that would not make me a professional criminal. isento (talk) 15:10, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Please just open an RfC. You pinged other editors here, I noticed above, but this unstructured mess of a discussion is hardly enticing to an uninvolved editor. If you feel I'm so wrong and unapproachable, then stop pinging me and open something more formal for others to talk to you. isento (talk) 15:14, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Interesting that you agree that Beyonce's collaborators are "the most reliable source for songwriting" and believe they should be used in the article, but only when they support your personal opinion that Beyonce should not be considered a songwriter, instead of also believing so in the case of the majority of her collaborators who have detailed her songwriting. And why do you believe that Lindsey Weber of Vulture is a perfectly acceptable reliable source for such a contentious claim about a living person? "Perry is among the industry's most prolific songwriters"? Why does that matter? If someone tells a "prolific songwriter" a lie about Beyonce and then asks her thoughts, in what world can that be considered a reliable enough source to make such a contentious claim about a living person, instead of using sources that are actually informed of her songwriting? Writing a songwriting section shouldn't be that hard if an editor is approaching it from a neutral point of view, but if one is so hell-bent on trying to paint Beyonce as a thief then of course the editor would insert an indiscriminate collection of opinions that support their belief from every random musician or journalist they can find. I hope that's not what you're doing here and, again, hope that you do the right thing for this topic. Bgkc4444 (talk) 16:10, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

I never said I agreed with what you are linking. I said: "Thanks. I've included that in the article." So far, you have been the only person I know of here to mention Beyonce and "thief" in the same sentence. Maybe you mistook "thanks" as agreeing, when I was just being polite. But I can see how that would go over your head... isento (talk) 19:42, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm not going to stoop to your level with your typical insults to my intelligence because I guess it makes a change from the obscene rants filled with personal attacks, profanity, sexism and ableism? And yes, you literally added the word "theft" to the article. And no, you missed the point. You agreed with that comment not because you said "thank you" but because you listened to it. If the people who actually know about Beyonce's songwriting from their experience with her are unreliable sources, as you now claim, why did you add the Fusari claim, among others? Bgkc4444 (talk) 21:17, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Ohhhh. Okay. Then I apologize for actually listening to an editor's comments in a talk page discussion. I will refrain from listening to any further editor comments here. Thank you for enlightening. So so sorry for my misapprehension that we should actually listen to each other in talk page discussions. I am overcome with immense guilt and profusely apologize for my abhorrent behavior. I should be punished. Perhaps a spanking is in order? isento (talk) 22:17, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

isento typed in regards to Beyoncé's 346 ASCAP-registered songwriting credits: "If I were to compile 346 parking tickets, that would not make me a professional criminal.", "It is up to editors to make judgement calls." Timeheist, Bgkc4444, NinjaRobotPirate, qedk, BD2412, what do you think of such a tone? Israell (talk) 21:08, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Note: For now, I am simply asking that "songwriter" remain the infobox since Beyoncé has 346 ASCAP-registered songwriting credits and it is well-documented she is indeed a songwriter. I see no use for an RfC. Suspicions raised by some over her songwriting as well as the praises she's received for her songwriting are mentioned in the "Songwriting section" of the article. Israell (talk) 17:09, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Regarding Beyoncé's picture in the infobox

It only says "Beyoncé in 2019", but I can see the logo for the 2019 remake of The Lion King behind her. Should I expand the caption to "Beyoncé at an event for The Lion King in 2019"? In the Paul Rudd page, the caption "Rudd at the Ant-Man and the Wasp premiere in 2018" was shortened to "Rudd in 2018".

Signed, Marc Raphael Felix (talk) 00:57, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Pinging Bgkc4444, Xurizuri, TruthGuardians, Apoxyomenus, Timeheist, Binksternet, Akhiljaxxn and isento regarding the new RfC just below in regards to the lead, this time. Israell (talk) 17:51, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

RfC: Should the subject of this article be defined as a songwriter in the infobox?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I am opening this in response to the above discussion, which has become untenable and messy. For the sake of the RfC's integrity, please restrict votes to "yes" or "no" and the like, and leave explanatory comments in #Discussion, where they can be discussed among participants. Thank you. isento (talk) 15:38, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Votes

• Conditional yes - Accompany it with a footnote saying she has never been credited as the sole writer for a song. isento (talk) 22:29, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

• Yes - I have no objection to such a footnote, but I do not believe it absolutely necessary. Israell (talk) 22:38, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
• Yes - The word songwriter should be included in the infobox (and reinstated in the lead) and no qualifier should be added Bgkc4444 (talk) 10:44, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
• Yes - Editors don’t get to decided who to consider a songwriter and who is not. An artists work dictates whether or not that is true, and credible sources mentioning such determines weather or not to label an artist as a song writer. There are credible sources that says she is. Personally I’m not big on Beyoncé, I don’t know much about her. I didn’t even know she wrote songs until these sources.TruthGuardians (talk) 13:29, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
• Yes. Only a few haters on the internet thought Beyoncé wasn't involved in writing her own songs. The issue came up after Lemonade, and was batted down by impartial observers.[6][7] Nobody with any authority says she is not a songwriter. Binksternet (talk) 20:39, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
• Yes — Lead is not the same with infobox and I don't see any problem to have included it in the infobox. If she has been criticized within the writing camp, it has been explained in an appropiate section ("Songwriting credits") and it's fine because we have both point of views (wich seems aren't a "minor point of view") and satisfy NPOV. Apoxyomenus (talk) 06:12, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
• Yes because she is credited as a songwriter on many songs, in awards, in articles, etc. Honestly, I'm confused about why this isn't in the lead anyway. People may have criticised her wanting to be credited as a songwriter, or the extent to which she's a songwriter, but dang if she's co-written a bunch of songs to any extent and gotten paid for them, then she's a professional songwriter. Xurizuri (talk) 14:13, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
• Yes - It's common sense really - She's been credited as a songwriter in awards and whatnot so see no reason why she shouldn't be listed as such here. –Davey2010^Talk 22:41, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

Discussion

I object to this RfC as there was already one pertaining to the lead just three months ago. Besides, there is no use for one more RfC. NinjaRobotPirate, qedk, if there were one more RfC, it should for now only pertain to the infobox. Some editors may oppose to "songwriter" being in the lead but not the infobox. The way the question is formulated, it could lead editors to vote "No" for the infobox just because they'd vote "No" for the lead. Israell (talk) 16:31, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

As I've explained earlier, Beyoncé has 346 ASCAP-registered song credits, she's been awarded for her songwriting and has received other accolades for it. Besides, some of her collaborators have confirmed she does indeed co-write her songs. The songwriting credits section of the article does address allegations raised by some pertaining to Beyoncé's songwriting, and allegations should not determine what's in the infobox. It is par of the course for recording artists who consistently write and/or co-write songs (for themselves and/or others) to be defined as songwriters in the infobox of their respective articles. "Songwriter" must remain in the infobox of Beyoncé's article. As for the lead sentence, I have no objection to the addition of "songwriter." Israell (talk) 20:59, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

One of her collaborators is quoted in the article as bringing doubts to her credits: Tedder vaguely questioned the ethics of her possible "demand" for a writing credit in other instances. And she has never been credited as the sole writer. If we were the keep it, I would agree to it if there could be a footnote beside it saying so. isento (talk) 22:23, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

• I have no objection to such a footnote, but I do not believe it absolutely necessary. That said, as I explained earlier, Wikipedia's article on songwriting makes it very clear co-writers incl. top-liners are indeed songwriters. A songwriter is a songwriter, whether or not they ever got a sole songwriting credit. To my knowledge, (this is not a case of WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS) no Wikipedia article for a recording artist has such a criterion (a footnote if the artist never had a sole songwriting credit). This is a Wikipedia article, not a trial case w/ Beyoncé put on the stand for allegedly stealing credits and editors making a judgement call on whether or not she is a real songwriter, whether or not her 346 ASCAP-registered credits (WP:V) have merit. The infobox pertains to her occupations, and her one of her very main occupations is that of songwriter, period. Israell (talk) 04:00, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

There doesn't appear to be a mention of Beyonce as a "top-liner" ([8]). She's been credited as an executive producer too, but we practice editorial discretion based on other factors beyond simple credits. That is why I previously suggested "Musician" as a compromise, or just a footnote here given what's been reported. Are there other articles on artists who's credits have been disputed or questioned by sources, both independent and dependent? isento (talk) 04:54, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Again, I am merely one voter. The better judgements usually prevail in these discussions. So if it is yours, feel confident other voters will just say yes. Also, fyi, a while back before the last RfC, I believe I had added such a footnote as a compromise to "songwriter" remaining in the lead ... isento (talk) 05:02, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

I am leaning towards "no", given the concerns and opinions posted at an earlier RfC covering the same question in regards to the lead. But my thinking has been exhausted by the discussion above and would prefer to hear from other editors first at the moment. isento (talk) 19:55, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Beyonce is considered a songwriter by reliable sources and so that should be included in the infobox, as well as in the lead, but Isento removed it in the lead despite no consensus being reached. Regarding a footnote, in no way does an artist having co-writers mean that they are not a songwriter. That's a view belonging to an editor, not reliable sources or the songwriting article. It's one thing if there are claims about ghostwriters - and many artists are faced with claims about ghostwriters and yet there is no footnote in their articles - but saying an artist uses writing camps in no negates their status as a songwriter nor warrants a qualifier just because an editor believes that Beyonce should be seen as stealing credits and not writing her songs. Bgkc4444 (talk) 10:44, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

You're a liar. A consensus was reached. Those voters weren't required to agree or indulge in what you were saying in the discussion section, although @Tbhotch: did actually discuss with you. @Apoxyomenus:, @Sluzzelin:, @Bluesatellite: also did more than just merely vote. isento (talk) 16:01, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

I hope you will actually respond to my points so that we can reach a consensus instead of insulting me. No consensus was reached. Polling is not a substitute for discussion. And well, yes, if we want a consensus to be reached, we must take "into account all of the proper concerns raised", according to WP:CON. And none of those users properly took take part in the discussion section. Bluesatellite's only contribution to the discussion section was before you made it into an RfC with a discussion section and they never responded to my nor Timeheist's points after, and Sluzzelin's only contribution to the section was asking you to stop doing so many edits to the talk page consecutively and again didn't respond to our points. Bgkc4444 (talk) 16:38, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

If no actual consensus was reached in regards to the lead, "songwriter" should be added back to the lead, then. Singer, songwriter and record producer Ryan Tedder is quoted in the article as explaining the following: "Tedder elaborated when speaking to Gigwise that “She does stuff on any given song that, when you go from the demo to the final version, takes it to another level that you never would have thought of as the writer. For instance, on ‘Halo,’ that bridge on her version is completely different to my original one. Basically, she came in, ditched that, edited it, did her vocal thing on it, and now it’s become one of my favorite parts of the song. The whole melody, she wrote it spontaneously in the studio. So her credit on that song stems from that.”" That's what a top-liner does: "A top-line writer or top-liner is a songwriter who writes a song over a pre-made beat." (from Wiki's article on songwriting); she did at least that.

That was one song. And he was also quoted as vaguely question[ing] the ethics of her possible "demand" for a writing credit in other instances. I acknowledge she co-wrote "Halo" according to Ryan Tedder. I hope you can acknowledge the same guy suggested she has demanded writing credits on other songs. isento (talk) 16:05, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

DJ Swivel explained: "Then, once we had our leads, she'd knock out the backing vocals real easy, and most of the time she does her own vocal arrangements too, figuring out her own harmonies. To be honest, recording vocals was the easiest part of this record, just because she is so good. It makes my job so much easier.” That's another example of top-line writing; she did at least that.

Singer, songwriter and record producer The-Dream revealed: "We did a whole Fela album that didn’t go up. It was right before we did 4. We did a whole different sounding thing, about twenty songs. She said she wanted to do something that sounds like Fela. That’s why there’s so much of that sound in the “End of Time.” There’s always multiple albums being made. Most of the time we’re just being creative, period. We’re talking about B, somebody who sings all day long and somebody who writes all day long. There’s probably a hundred records just sitting around." One more confirmation from a fellow musician Beyoncé Knowles is indeed a songwriter and truly does write numerous songs. Israell (talk) 15:32, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

That's great. Perhaps these quotes belong in the article then. isento (talk) 16:05, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this is a reasonable place to put this as its my own opinion but I think its relevant to this discussion. LMK if this is inappropriate. But often people (and editors are people) will overvalue criticism/undervalue contributions of women and people of colour. It may be worthwhile to seriously consider whether your position would change if Beyonce was a white man. Xurizuri (talk) 14:08, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Xurizuri, yeah, you may have a point! We've made a very strong argument that Beyoncé is indeed known to be a songwriter, having co-written 346 of her songs (most of them) and having received prestigious awards and mentions for her songwriting. And she not only writes but produces as well. And just because of criticism/suspicions raised by a few (that then gained some traction online), some editors object to "songwriter" being in the lead sentence... As you noted, such criticism is overvalued and her rightful contribution is undervalued. Not fair, and it is certainly not encyclopedical. Israell (talk) 21:25, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.