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Current fleet

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I reverted to the last version I wrote since GreekBoy rushed to undo my changes before seeing the citations I cited. Information about the Embraers is correct since it is mentioned on the company’s site, link which I cited. The registration-to-name coupling was done through the Airliners.net photos, with SX-CMD exception for which there is no photo. Although I flew with this very aircraft just the day before I started the article, I have no source proving that this is the correct registration. As soon as I have a valid source I will cite it. Greetings to everyone.--Astromahitis (talk) 12:05, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

With all due respect, the CH-Aviation site is an amateur site, but they are almost always accurate. The pictures you used from Airliners.net as sources are all last dated from August 2009. CH-Aviation states here since January 24, 2010 that they have been returned to their leasers. The Athens Airways fleet page is simply outdated. They don't even mention the leased ATR-42 or DHC-8-300[1] that are in their fleet, even though there are photographs of it and they are operating as part of their schedule if you go to book a flight. Furthermore, a big Greek aviation site also confirms that they have left the fleet.[2] For those reasons, I am reverting your changes. Greekboy (talk) 21:21, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]


With all due respect: HAVE YOU READ THE RULES??? You say "but they are almost always accurate" weasel weasel! Who says? Who verifies the accuracy? And since I FLEW with SXCMD HOW THE HECK COULD IT BE SOLD?? I don't mean to offend you but Wikipedia is not just a site that links to anything crawling on the web. That's not quality. You cite what is apparently the most reliable. And yes, whether you like it or not, official site is more reliable than an amateur site. I myself can make a site to promote my ideas or beliefs and cite it on the Wikipedia; not only me, anyone. If the official site is outdated or YOU have GOOD REASONS to believe it is outdated, MENTION IT and CITE IT. That’s professional work. The site owner is responsible for the site’s content. You cited it and it’s the official. You are ok with the people reading the article. And yes this is the last footage we have on those aircraft. Until further notice, they are considered to belong to Athens Airways fleet. If you have something more than I do regarding photos, just post it on the talk page and I am willing to adapt or accept any adaptation on the article. Bear in mind that when I edit I don’t just write: I search first. I spend the whole day just to be sure that I will not be repeated, not be offensive and not writing crap. Please have this in mind and respect it. As I have already written on your page, I will wait for 24 hours for your reply to have a productive discussion. If not, I will consider your action as selfish and self-promoting.Astromahitis (talk) 06:15, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And one more thing: what do you have to say about this [3]
SEARCH FIRST P L E A S E SEARCH...Astromahitis (talk) 06:15, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I too researched before I made changes. My edits were done in good faith. I admit I was wrong in reverting your edit's without first waiting for this discussion to end. I assumed it had resolved already. You also specifically said in your talk above "Although I flew with this very aircraft just the day before I started the article, I have no source proving that this is the correct registration.". So you were not certain that you actually flew on this aircraft. The last link you posted to airliners.gr does not back up your argument that all 4 planes are still in the fleet, since it also says that at least 1 left the fleet in December. Obviously there is contradictory information from all of the sources provided. I will bring up this issue on Wikipedia:WikiProject Airlines to see if they can provide us with some help and clarity on the issue. Greekboy (talk) 09:23, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oh yes now we are talking! What I say is not that I am not sure that I flew on this plane: I am 10000% sure that I did! I saw it when I was in the bus right after disembarking! The problem is that anybody can claim that he flew or that he saw it. But my experience is not a fact that can be used on Wikipedia. And by the way I have a citation about this very aircraft (and SXCMC): [4] Anyway, I agree about the contradiction and the help you mention is a good idea. Until the help arrives what do you think we should write. It seems that the Embraers are neither one nor four... --Astromahitis (talk) 10:52, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am not sure what exactly should be written. I would just wait to see if the wikiproject can help us on the issue. I am sure a reply will come soon enough, as I have already posted the problem on the project's talk page. In the mean time, I will try to search for more sources that can maybe help us. Greekboy (talk) 11:14, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Since I have some loose professional connection to the HCAA, I was at the ΚΕΠ/ΑΘ (stands for Athens /ACC), I was looking with the flow controller and through his terminal and the AFTN network, about recent flights of ATW. It seems that CMB and CMC have not flown within the Hellenic territory after 10 of December and 23 of December 2009 respectively. CMD was definitely flying on 2 March. We also spotted two other aircraft flying under ATW callsign: LZATR and LZATS. LZATS was declared as E145 in one flight plan although with a small research someone can see it is AT43. In another flight plan LZATS was declared correctly as AT43… Anyway, about CMB and CMC they might have not flown due to some kind of maintenance reasons, but since we haven’t seen them for more than two months they might have been sold. Astromahitis (talk) 22:39, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Have a look in Airliners.gr [5], the list is generally very accurate. SX-CMB left the fleet on 2009-12-09. The other three seem to be active. It agrees with Airfleets.net [6] as well. Now about the ATR-42 they are under wet leasing, so they have no place in the fleet. Sv1xv (talk) 13:02, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
To be more precise it says 2009-12-10 which is the day I saw its last flight in the AFTN database. And what about SX-CMC? It hasn’t flown since 2009-12-23. I forgot to check the last destination of both aircrafts, something that I can probably be able to do tomorrow. That might clarify the fate of those two. ATW also has a DH8C which bears ATW colors and Malta registration. Are we supposed to include that too? --Astromahitis (talk) 14:42, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My view is that aircraft under a wet leasing scheme should not be included in the fleet. Aircraft under dry leasing, it is ok. Sv1xv (talk) 14:48, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just a note I have removed the registration and name of the Embraer from the article not something normally listed in articles. Just to note that amateur websites are not considered reliable sources but sometimes for some airlines they are the only source available. It is best to use official registers and airline websites if available. Also remember this is not a fan airline site it is an encyclopedia it doesnt have to be accurate and up to date they are loads of amateur websites that do that all the time, it would be a lot better to have a historic record of types operated. Mostly wet leased aircraft are not really notable either. MilborneOne (talk) 17:53, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is the way it is: I looked today for the destination of the two aircraft. Both of them have flown to LIPY, Ancona. But MilborneOne has removed the registration of the aircraft, as he says and as I noticed. That’s perfect. We just got Wikipedia 7 days back. That’s exactly how the article looked 7 days ago. All that fuss, all that time I personally -don’t know for the others- spent gone; vanished. I don’t know why we shouldn’t write registration numbers since we have them. I don’t know either why we shouldn’t change the Embraers’ number to 4 since we use Athens Airways official site citation. All I know is that while some very few try to discuss the subject and conclude to a solution, some others, which constitute the vast majority, just make their own decisions and submit an edit. That’s it with me. I’m done. My contributions (and unrewarded time loss) to the Wikipedia project end here. --Astromahitis (talk) 20:42, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am sorry you are not happy but the project consensus that in most cases registrations in airline articles are not notable, as we keep repeating this is an encyclopedia and individual aircraft are not notable. If you are interested in registrations they are lots of airline fan boy and enthusiast sites that show that information. I have not looked at the references but if you have a reliable reference that shows the fleet then it can be used. MilborneOne (talk) 21:22, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not a reliable source but http://www.airframes.org/ has:
  • SX-CMA recently seen 2010-02-17 as flight ATW0313 (ATW313).
  • SX-CMB recently seen 2009-12-10 as flight ATW0001 (ATW001).
  • SX-CMC recently seen 2009-12-23 as flight ATW0001 (ATW001).
  • SX-CMD recently seen 2010-03-03 as flight ATW0310 (ATW310).

Which seems to indicate that only two of the four are actually operating, but we need a reliable reference that the airline still hasnt got three (as per the company website) as it appears that CMB and CMC have been returned to British European at Exeter, but without a reliable reference this is all original research. MilborneOne (talk) 21:41, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

CMB and CMC stored at Exeter 26 December 2009 http://www.flickr.com/photos/sadmanuk/4220337250/ MilborneOne (talk) 21:47, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am not happy only about the fact that “Wikipedia is a poor implementation of a great idea” as I read somewhere. You searched for data I already know and provided. You spent your time but if it’s ok with you it’s also with me. I still don’t get it about registrations since this Wikipedia:WikiProject_Airlines/Fleet clearly says that they can be mentioned. Also for Olympic Airlines there is a whole section with aircraft names. Since this is an encyclopedia this doesn’t fit there and should be deleted. Whatever, it’s your encyclopedia and your rules. I don’t care.--Astromahitis (talk) 01:38, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
By the way you say: "I have not looked at the references but if you have a reliable reference that shows the fleet then it can be used" Yes I already did and I had another user reverted my change twice. So no thanks.--Astromahitis (talk) 01:38, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:WikiProject_Airlines/Fleet is an old discussion and the current guideline is at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Airlines/page_content#Fleet which says Lists or tables should not include individual aircraft tail numbers unless they have encyclopedic value. If you disagree with it you are welcome to bring it up at the project for discussion. I have corrected the entry again to show a fleet of four (as per Our Fleet) and marked that we need a reliable reference for the two stored ones. Also note that Athens Airways Company Profile page says it has three! This is not that far away from your original edit. As you are aware we can find plenty of amateur websites that update fleets regularly but we dont have to keep up with the daily changes (another good reason not to list registrations!). This is an encyclopedia we are not in a rush to update the table. MilborneOne (talk) 09:12, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Fleet update

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Now, for your information only, as we enter the field of original research: It seems that only SX-CMA is in regular use, backed up by SX-CMD (I last spotted it on 2010-02-18). SX-CMD shall be used more heavily during the summer.

The Dash 8-300 is 9H-AFD leased from Medavia and it arrived (again) on 2010-02-17. The same aircraft was also in use in 2009. SV1XV (talk) 12:23, 6 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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