Talk:1 Esdras

Organization

It didn't make much sense to me that the 1 Esdras Article was according to the Septuagint, 2 Esdras was according to the Protestants, 3 Esdras & 4 Esdras was according to Jerome. So I organized them somewhat according to who had the oldest claim to the name (except Jerome has to cede 3 Esdras to the LXX name of 1 Esdras), leaving 3 Esdras to the Russians. And of course it's all sorted out in the Esdras article. Not everyone is going to be pleased but at least it's more consistent now, even if a bit Orthodox centric.

203.32.87.174 15:07, 7 October 2006 (UTC) See http://net.bible.org/dictionary.php?word=Apocalyptic Esdras

Relation of 1 Esdras to Septuagint

The last sentence of this paragraph doesn't make sense to me:

Josephus makes use of the book and some scholars believe that the composition is likely to have taken place in the first century BC or the first century AD. Many Protestant and Catholic scholars assign no historical value to the "original" sections of the book. The citations of the other books of the Bible, however, provide a pre-Septuagint translation of those texts, which increases its value to scholars.

How does a 1st century BC/1st century AD text pre-date the Septuagint? Perhaps the author meant the existing manuscripts of 1 Esdras pre-date the existing manuscripts of other biblical texts cited within 1 Esdras? As it stands this paragraph is quite confusing. Timotheos 01:33, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

There really ought to be a citation on the last paragraph where it says that early Christians quoted it often. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Squeoo (talk • contribs) 22:14, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Ethiopian Orthodox Bible

An anonymous editor has mentioned an Ethiopian Orthodox Bible. What edition is this Bible exactly? Do you have an ISBN? Some other reference,perhaps? Rwflammang (talk) 17:51, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Original Language

This article seems to be a bit unclear as to the original language of the book. Books of the Bible shows it to be Greek, but as I read this article it would appear to me that the original would be Hebrew, but with the first inclusion in a canonical form being the Greek Septuagint. Is there any clear understanding of what the original language was? Dbiel ^(Talk) 01:23, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Dead link

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  • In 1 Esdras on 2011-06-09 12:24:39, 404 Not Found

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Jerome and Ezra

I have reverted the following edit for the second time; so I owe an explanation: "Jerome states that this book is apocryphal along with 2 Esdras. "

In his prologue to Ezra, Jerome discusses four 'books of Esdras' known in Latin; and explains why his translation (from the Hebrew) contains only one. As usual his argument in't entirely easy to follow; as he is purusing disputes of which we only have his half of the story. But it is clear that he criticises the Seputagint Greek for presenting two books of Ezra that are in fact a 'variety of versions' of the same Hebrew original. Clearly he understands Esdras A (first Esdras) and Esdras B (second Esdras) here. Then he says that the third and fourth books of Esdras are apocryphal. Bogaert discusses which are these two books; and proposes that Jerome's third Esdras is to be identified with Slavonic 'third Esdras' - which also appears to be Ambrose's 'third Esdras'. Jerome's 'fourth Esdras' could then be our 5 Esdras, or 6 Esdras (or conceivably both). But either way, Jerome is not saying that our 1 Esdras is apocryphal, only that it is a secondary (and inferior) translation. Which indeed it is. TomHennell (talk) 19:39, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

Clearly there is a confusion here; but Bogaert's findings are now defintive; 1 Esdras is never called 3 Esdras before the 13th century, so Jerome cannot have been referring to it as 'third Esdras' in his prologue to Ezra. On the other hand, 2 Esdras (= Clementive 4 Esdras) is referred to by Ambrose and "the third book of Esdras" in 'De Spiritu Sancto 2.6'. Again following Bogaert. TomHennell (talk) 23:37, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

This page (1_Esdras) still reads "Jerome considered I Esdras to be Ezra, II Esdras to be Nehemiah, III Esdras to be I Esdras and IV Esdras to be 2 Esdras." But the table on [1]Esdras shows that Jerome never refers to Esdras at all.

Which is it? The two pages contradict each other. The note above says that "Bogaert's findings are now defintive (sic); 1 Esdras is never called 3 Esdras before the 13th century, so Jerome cannot have been referring to it as 'third Esdras' in his prologue to Ezra."

I'm not an expert on this. I don't pretend to know what's correct and so won't edit this. But something needs to change.

Case #1. If Bogaert is correct, then this page (1_Esdras) needs to be corrected to refer to Clementine, not Jerome or have the sentence removed.

Case #2. If Bogaert is incorrect, then the table on [2]Esdras needs to change.

My interest is in comparing the deuterocanons from different branches of Christianity. So imagine my frustration when the pages seeking to clarify the various contradictions over what's "III Esdras" contradict each other. David Blyth (talk) 21:26, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

The only thing I know is what Jerome himself says. He considered Esdras to be one book, and says that just as the Hebrews considered Ezra and Nehemiah to be one book. He then claims that 3 Esdras and 4 Esdras are apocryphal. Therefore the apocryphal books must be 3 Esdras (1 Esdras or Ezra A) and 4 Esdras (the apocalypse of Ezra or 2 Esdras):

"No one ought to be bothered by the fact that my edition consists of only one book, nor ought anyone take delight in the dreams found in the apocryphal third and fourth books. For among the Hebrews the texts of Ezra and Nehemiah comprise a single book, and those texts which are not used by them and are not concerned with the twenty-four elders ought to be rejected outright." Rafaelosornio (talk) 22:12, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

References

theories of David Carr

I have reverted the attached from the lede.

"1 Esdras (‹See Tfd›Greek: Ἔσδρας Αʹ), also First Esdras, Greek Esdras, Greek Ezra, or 3 Esdras, is an ancient Greek version of the biblical Book of Ezra in use among the early church, and many modern Christians with varying degrees of canonicity. The core of First Esdras (chapters 2 and 5-9) is hypothesised to be a surviving earlier variant of the Masoretic Ezra-Nehemiah, with the passages specific to the career of Nehemiah having been inserted into Ezra-Nehemiah, as well as passages attributed to Ezra changed to Nehemiah. First Esdras also contains a Prologue (Chapter 1) largely similar to 2 Chronicles 35-36, as well as a later addition of a Persian court tale, the Tale of the Three Guardsmen (chapters 3-4)."

It looks like this ought to be in the body of the article; but not in the lede as it is not a consensus view. But also, unless I read it wrong, the wording is arsey-versey. Nehemiah does not feature in 1 Esdras; that is the point. TomHennell (talk) 16:12, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

References

Incorrect claim about chronological recount? (Et. More needed for 'Criticism' section)

"An additional difficulty with the text appears to readers who are unfamiliar with chiastic structures common in Semitic literature. If the text is assumed to be a Western-style, purely linear narrative, then Artaxerxes seems to be mentioned before Darius, who is mentioned before Cyrus."

As far as I can tell, Cyrus is mentioned before Artaxerxes, and Darius is mentioned next. Cyrus did come before both, but Darius I came before Artaxerxes I, so if it were Darius I mentioned, it would be non-chronological - however, if it means Darius II, this would be chronological, since he reigned after Artaxerxes I (And Artxerxes II reigned directly after Darius II, with Esdras being said to have been born after the reign of 'Darius' and during the reign of 'Artaxerxes', so this chronology would make much sense, but I digress). But point being, unless I'm sorely mistaken, the claim about the text quoted from the Wikipedia article at the beginning of this post is incorrect, and should be revised or deleted.

Secondarily, criticism claiming deeds of Nehemiah to have been translated over to Esdras in 'Esdras A' should be noted in the 'Criticism' section, if it exists - and if it does not, the mention of such criticism should be expunged from the introductory text of the article. Zusty001 (talk) 04:19, 19 February 2022 (UTC)