Talk:Intifada

1. 1. Etymology

Another reference to cite for the word root:

https://www.almaany.com/en/dict/ar-en/نفض/

https://www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-en/انتفاضة/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:8D80:1398:4AD0:C7FB:93CB:5BB1:FA99 (talk) 03:36, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

US Occupation

I think that the section for describing 'the iraq intifada' should not say "aimed at ending the US Occupation of Iraq". It seems to lack objectivity of the author, just as writing "aimed at ending the US Liberation of Iraq" would.

A more proper wording would be "aimed at ending the US military presence in Iraq".

-- Popoi

It is occupation

Well, what's happening in Iraq IS Occupation NOT Presence!

--Riyadhawi

They're the same thing, except "occupation" is a negative word, particularly when you capitalize it like that. Speaking of which, I think its use in the phrase "directed at ending the Israeli military occupation" is negative towards Israel, particularly since many, including intifada participants, will say that the intifada is aimed at obliterating Israel as a state and/or the Jews altogether, not just the occupation of Palestinian-populated areas. One can hardly say, for example, that Jerusalem, a major Palestinian goal (at the very least to share) is merely occupied by the Israeli military. I am going to change the wording to something legitimately biaseless, i.e. expressing both views.

--James

Third Intifada on FB

   NYT Tuesday has

Facebook Removes ‘Palestinian Intifada’ Page By JENNIFER PRESTON

5:43 p.m. | Updated After complaints by Israeli government officials and Jewish organizations in the United States, Facebook took down a page today by Palestinian supporters that called for violence against Jews and an uprising against Israel.

The page, entitled “Third Palestinian Intifada,” began earlier this month as a call for peaceful protests in the occupied Palestinian territories on May 15, one of more than a dozen Facebook pages that have been used in recent months to mobilize uprisings across the Middle East and North Africa.

[NYT article continues]

   One quirk of the story is the use of "Third Intifada" to refer to the same proposed activity on two contradictory logical grounds:

A.

1. First Palestinian Intifada
2. Second Palestinian Intifada
3. Third Palestinian Intifada

B.

1. Tunisian First Intifada
2. Egyptian Second Intifada
3. Palestinian Third Intifada

   Surely we need to cover this as a FaceBook topic, notwithstanding two earlier years' deletions of earlier would-be-Third Intifada wannabe articles.
--Jerzy•t 01:27 & 01:56, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

   I refer above to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Third Intifada (fall 2010, delete) and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Third intifada (winter 2007, merge to Khaled Mashal apparently w/o Rdr).
--Jerzy•t 01:35 & 01:56, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Palestinian intifada nonviolent?

The first and second Palestinian intifadas included suicide bombers, stone throwing etc. Under History, it says it was intended to be nonviolent.

Even if it's meant to show intention only, it should also state that they were, in fact, violent.

If this part under History refers to the INTENT to represent it as non violent, that should be stated.

That's both for complete encyclopedic content and because in these complicated times of the current Israeli-Palestinian war, uneducated supporters who don't know what intifada is or can't tell the difference between Hamas and Palestinians search Wikipedia for affirmation for supporting Hamas, and they then call for intifada because "it means revolution" while to others like Hamas it means violent deeds like suicide bombings.

Yes, this is an encyclopedia, not an opinion column. But this section showing the first and second intifadas as non violent does the truth injustice in practice. Our purpose is to convey the facts well, this may fail at that.

Peace be upon both nations.

... in the First and Second Intifadas, where it was originally chosen to connote "aggressive nonviolent resistance", a meaning it bore among Palestinian students in struggles in the 1980s and which they adopted as less confrontational than terms in earlier militant rhetoric since it bore no nuance of violence.

2A0D:6FC2:64A0:B00:7C45:9BEF:DB18:BBAC (talk) 11:38, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

The sentence seems to be eliding a lot, as the second intifada was in 2000, 15 years later and after the First Intifada had turned violent. The term in 2000 did not necessarily have the same connotation it had in the late 80s.The Second Intifada began violent on September 29, 2000, immediately after Sharon went to the Temple Mount, and both sides used violent rhetoric immediately with the militant terms this article says weren't used. 67.242.46.6 (talk) 02:05, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 December 2023

The article is extremely misleading. It makes the reader believe that the Palestinian Intifadas were non violent - or intended to be non violent. But the truth is that both intifadas were indeed very violent from day 1. I can find numerous examples of this violence. If a suicide bomber on a bus is a “nonviolent” act than i guess no one is violent.

I will of course bring all the evidence needed - both for the definition of intifada and for the actual events that happened under it. Please let the truth be written!

Here’s one for the definition: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/intifada Bozzidag (talk) 12:05, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Liu1126 (talk) 13:43, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

The article is clearly written with bias towards the view that it is a non-violent movement. The words used to describe it as peaceful include positive terms like "solidarity" and "support," while the two sentences about the inherent violence dismissively use phrases like "alleged" and "feel." 68.112.18.142 (talk) 16:43, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

ok. I would add to the first paragraph:

"An intifada (Arabic: انتفاضة intifāḍah) is a rebellion or uprising, or a resistance movement. It is a key concept in contemporary Arabic usage referring to a uprising against oppression. In the Israeli - Palestinian conflict context, it refers to violent or non - violent uprising or opposition by the Palestinian people to the Israeli occupation.

== Notes ==

== References ==

• Intidada Definition, Cambridge Dictionary
• Brinkley, Joel (1988). "sustained violence that has become known by the Arabic word for uprising, intifada", The New York Times.
• Bard, Mitchell (2005). "This uprising or intifada was violent from the start." Jewish Virtual Library.
• Balsam, Avi (2023). "Intifada revolution(...) a term which connotes violent uprising against Jews", The Tech.
• Geraghty, Jim (2023) "Calling for an “intifada” is calling for a violent uprising", National Review.

Bozzidag (talk) 17:00, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template.  Spintendo  23:09, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Well, I don’t see a raging debate here, and I had one other person in this thread agreeing with me, plus another person complaining before about the same problem in this article (painting intifada as an almost hippie movement, which is absurd).

I understand that this edit is controversial, and you can read and take what you think is more important from what I’ve added, but please note that I did add references and sources for my claims, and not one, but five. Also, I dare you to find anything that I wrote that is NOT factual. I think it is politically biased to ignore ALL of it. Thanks Bozzidag (talk) 10:41, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

 Done with some other sources. ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 18:47, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

History Section

I request to add citations and change some of this text:

'In the Palestinian context, the word refers to attempts to "shake off" the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip in the First and Second Intifadas, where it was originally chosen to connote "aggressive nonviolent resistance", a meaning it bore among Palestinian students in struggles in the 1980s and which they adopted as less confrontational than terms in earlier militant rhetoric since it bore no nuance of violence.'

Ok. but i'd like to add :

In actuality, the first Intifada consisted of violent attacks on Israeli troops and civilians with stones, axes, Molotov cocktails, hand grenades, explosives, and firearms, as well as nonviolent actions such as mass boycotts, civil disobedience, and Palestinians refusing to work jobs in Israel.

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template.  Spintendo  23:10, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Again, where is the raging debate ??

I understand that this edit is controversial, because this is an emotional and politically charged issue, but again, you can read and take what you think is more important from what I’ve added, but please note that I did add references and sources for my claims, and not one, but four. Once again, I dare you to find anything that I wrote that is NOT factual. I think it is politically biased to ignore ALL of it. Thanks Bozzidag (talk) 10:43, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

 Not done - stale, contested request. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 01:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

References

References

• The Intifada: 1987-1990, Anti-Defamation League, 2022
• "The First Intifada was (...) attacks (using rocks, Molotov cocktails, and occasionally firearms) on Israelis." What you need to know about the 1987 Intifada, PBS, 2019
• "the Palestinians shifted from throwing rocks and Molotov cocktails at Israeli targets to attacking them with rifles, hand grenades, and explosives" Intifada, Encyclopædia Britannica.
• 'We threw one Molotov at the beginning'(...)'We'd go down there and throw stones and Molotovs' Jaafar recalled", Inside the Intifada, Joel Brinkley, The New York Times, 1987.

Bozzidag (talk) 17:57, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

rewording and adding reference to related source

the wording is confusing with the double or, here is my sugested rewording it and add link to relevant source on wikipedia according to WP:BUILD.

change:

it refers to violent or non-violent uprising or opposition by the Palestinian people to the Israeli occupation.

to:

it refers to non-violent opposition or violent uprising by the Palestinian people to the Israeli occupation. 79.176.106.171 (talk) 01:08, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

sources on violence vs nonviolence

The lead says that 'intifada' refers to violent or non-violent uprising or opposition by the Palestinian people to the Israeli occupation. But the sources do not support this. The sources cited are an Economist article that says Violence is a hallmark of an intifada, a Vox article which says that the First Intifada included both violent and non-violent actions, and a Deutsche Welle article that says nothing about non-violence, but simply summarizes the facts of the two violent intifadas in the history of Israel-Palestine. I therefore propose this revision: In the Israeli-Palestinian conflict context, it refers to uprising or opposition by the Palestinian people to the Israeli occupation, characteristically involving violent resistance, and also sometimes involving nonviolent methods of resistance. Shinealittlelight (talk) 19:31, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

@Shinealittlelight: The sources you provided here proves the point, that it involved both violent and non-violent methods. Relying exclusively on the Economist charachterization is cherrypicking a POV; I await your self-reversion. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:42, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Again the body makes it clear that in the I-P context the two intifadas were characterized by violence. And while the economist source is the most explicit that the “hallmark” of the intifadas was violence, all sources describe the violence in detail. So no cherry picking. Just accurate summary. Shinealittlelight (talk) 11:49, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

@Shinealittlelight: The body makes no such claims:

“ In the Palestinian context, the word refers to attempts to "shake off" the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip in the First and Second Intifadas, where it was originally chosen to connote "aggressive nonviolent resistance", a meaning it bore among Palestinian students in struggles in the 1980s and which they adopted as less confrontational than terms in earlier militant rhetoric since it bore no nuance of violence. The First Intifada was characterized by protests and violent riots, especially stone-throwing, while the Second Intifada was characterized by a period of heightened violence. The suicide bombings carried out by Palestinian assailants became one of the more prominent features of the Second Intifada and mainly targeted Israeli civilians, contrasting with the relatively less violent nature of the First Intifada. ”

Furthermore, the different definitions provided by yourself proves that such claim is not factually correct. I still await your self-reversion, as the burden of verifiability and reaching consensus is on the editor making a claim per WP:BRD and WP:BURDEN. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:44, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Neither intifada involved 21st-century-Western-style nonviolent protests, which is a difficult norm to achieve without our built-up advantage in state capacity. If you look at the Britannica page, the term "protests" is not used at all -- "riots" is what we'd call the same actions in the US, because they all involved extreme physical violence against Israelis and property. Already the action plans released daily by the PLO during 1987-9 generally included an instruction to throw stones and Molotov cocktails at Israelis and passing cars. However, the "intifada of stones and Molotov cocktails" (as declared by the PLO in 1987; PIJ tried to reframe it as an "intifada of knives" in 1990) was definitely less violent than the Second Intifada, which from its inception attempted to achieve higher Israeli casualties by using mostly guns and heavy explosives. GordonGlottal (talk) 14:05, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

"21st-century-Western-style nonviolent protests". Ah, yes, western protests are inherently non-violent, and those savage non-westerner protests are inherently violent. Sorry to be blunt, but it is mind-boggling that anyone believes this and edits Wikipedia based on these prejudices. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:44, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree that the body says the term was chosen to connote nonviolence. But the fact that it was chosen to connote nonviolence is consistent with the fact, also established by sources, that the intifadas ended up being characterized by violence anyway. And the fact that they were characterized by violence is established by the quote you provide: the first intifada was characterized by protests and violent riots (note, it definitely does not say "non-violent protests" but rather protests and violent riots) and the second intifada was even more violent, and was characterized by a period of hightened violence. So again, these intifadas were characterized by violence, per all the sources and the current body. Our lead should reflect this.

The current state of consensus is this: there was an inaccurate version of the lead, I pointed this out on talk above (on 26 April), proposed my alternative, waited a day, saw no response, and changed the lead accordingly. You are now here wanting to propose a new edit. You need to gain consensus to enact that new edit. Shinealittlelight (talk) 13:18, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

@Shinealittlelight: RS, including the ones you provided above, do not agree that the first intifada was mainly violent:

“ Daniel Lefkowitz, a professor of language and culture in the Middle East at the University of Virginia who lived in Israel for several years in the early 2000s, hypothesized that, for most Palestinians, the word brings up memories of the First Intifada, a largely non-violent Palestinian protest largely involving work stoppages, boycotts and demonstrations. Some Palestinians also attacked Israelis, mostly with small weapons such as rocks or Molotov cocktails, and on some occasions with firearms or grenades. [1] ”

If anything the intifadas were characterized by even deadlier and more violent Israeli repression. This is both cherrypicking of RS and of information. I still await your self-reversion because the claim that the intifadas were charachterized by violence is a claim you are trying to insert, and one I am trying remove; the burden again is on you. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:59, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Retroactive use of word intifada

it seems many conflicts have recently been added to indicate they were intifadas.

The editors should confirm that these were called as intifadas in that time.

There is an attempt to normalize the term intifada outside of the Palestinian context. Where it never was used as such.

Simply translating all uprisings as intifadas is not intellectually honest 174.141.173.97 (talk) 13:06, 2 May 2024 (UTC)