Donnanz

• Archive 2013-2022

"localities" in Sweden

Hi. There are five entries in Category:en:Localities in Sweden. "Locality" is not a good place type to use, as it doesn't really mean anything more than "place" or "toponym" and we already have Category:en:Places in Sweden used in general for all toponyms. Can you fix these five entries to use a more specific/correct place type? If there isn't one, maybe these don't meet CFI (see the recent Beer Parlour discussion on places identified only as "toponyms"). Benwing2 (talk) 08:01, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

@Benwing2: "Locality" was a definition taken from Wikipedia, the fault seems to lie in the treatment of "locality" for places in Sweden. I find that this is converted to "village" in other countries, I converted these ones to "community" which is also categorised as "village". The category should now be empty. DonnanZ (talk) 10:20, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Thank you! Benwing2 (talk) 02:03, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

@Benwing2: You're welcome. There's another issue which could be looked at: commune in French place names and Wikipedia entries, which appears to mean municipality, but are unclassified at present. I think Italian comune is treated as a municipality. DonnanZ (talk) 14:14, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Yes, you are right. "comune" is treated as "municipality"; for whatever reason, "commune" isn't currently. I can make this change but I want to make sure this applies to all (or at least most) countries; if you think this is the case, I will make the change. (The module doesn't currently provide a way of conditionalizing stuff like this on a per-country basis. I ran into this issue with prefectures, where a "prefecture" in Japan/China/Greece/etc. is completely different from a "prefecture" in France; the former is something like a province while the latter is a city that's the capital of a French department. The solution that's currently implemented is to have a separate place type "French prefecture", abbreviated "fpref", which displays as [[w:Prefectures in France|prefecture]] and categorizes French places into "Prefectures of France" as well as "Department capitals". Something like this could potentially be done for localities in Sweden as well.) Benwing2 (talk) 05:29, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

@Benwing2: I think I find the definition commune only in places in France, a definition obviously borrowed by English Wikipedia from the French one. For commune in languages where it is derived from French it is a municipality. E.g. Charleroi in French-speaking Belgium is a city and municipality in Wallonia. I note your treatment of French prefectures.

Locality is more problematic. I have been considering this recently with the Australian definition, as in Suburbs and localities (Australia). I created Flinders Ranges, where it is a mountain range, local government area and a locality within the LGA. In South Australia "locality" seems to be officially defined as a large rural area without many people. Incidentally with local government areas "Australia" has to be added or it doesn't register, alternatively I add the category manually. I haven't been doing enough place entries for Sweden to form an opinion, "community" suited most of those I altered, only one had a large population (20,000 or so).

Another topic I have been meaning to bring up is the lack of a category for the Australian Capital Territory. It is like Washington, D.C., except it's an enclave in NSW, not wedged between states, and remotely like San Marino. Most of the places in the ACT are suburbs of Canberra, the national capital, presently classified as "Suburbs in Australia": Hawker is an example. DonnanZ (talk) 13:30, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

@Benwing2: Thanks for dealing with French communes and the ACT. I had another problem with places in Birmingham, Alabama finding their way into Category:en:Places in Birmingham, which is intended for the English city only. I was able to remove the Alabama places (only three) from the category by substituting "city/Birmingham" with "place/Birmingham", adding USA for good measure; I'm not sure whether a category is needed for Birmingham, Alabama – probably not given the vast difference in size. DonnanZ (talk) 13:14, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

Yeah there's a more general problem with this; e.g. Category:en:Places in Central Region, Malta contains places in Ghana in it because there's a "Central Region" in Ghana. I need to change the categorization code to pay attention to the country or state when categorizing, and add a way to insert invisible holonyms (e.g. something like !c/USA to indicate that a place is in the US for categorization purposes, without displaying "United States"; I think you mentioned somewhere above you were having to add categories manually to work around this issue). I agree it's not clear we need a category for Birmingham, Alabama; I think my criterion was the metro area should be >= 1,000,000 people, and Birmingham AL barely qualifies at 1,115,289. But I didn't apply this to China or India, because there are hundreds and hundreds of such cities that I've never heard of, and conversely I added some smaller European cities. So maybe we need a different criterion for inclusion. BTW working on the Module:place code is my next project; there are lots of requests for code changes to this module. Benwing2 (talk) 20:39, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

@Benwing2: Yes, Ghana, not South Africa. I was able to get rid of Clackmannan (Scotland) as it is included under Central, not Central Region, using "r:Suf/Central" (Ordnance Survey maps of the time did show "Central Region" though, but there were districts within the regions too before council areas replaced them all). Cape Coast is a tougher nut to crack; I was hoping that wrapping it with the Wikipedia entry would work, but no such luck. It will disappear from the Malta category if "province" or "place" is used, but I stopped short of that. Back to the drawing board.

South Africa has provinces, and there's probably enough entries now (222) in Category:en:Places in South Africa to justify the setting up of categories for the nine provinces in Category:en:Provinces of South Africa. It's one for future consideration, I'm not going to push for this if you have enough on your plate already. DonnanZ (talk) 23:25, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

@Benwing2: Unfortunately I found another one. Blantyre in Malawi is listed as being in Malta. There is a Southern Region in both countries. DonnanZ (talk) 19:29, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

@Benwing2: I experimented with an entry for Southern Region in both Malta and Malawi, without saving it. Both countries were categorised correctly. I removed Malta, and Malawi categories remained. It's still a mystery. DonnanZ (talk) 19:53, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Hmmph, I need to get to fixing up Module:place. Benwing2 (talk) 02:50, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

@Benwing2: I managed to crack the problem with Cape Coast in Ghana when adding more for Ghana, by removing r/ for region. It doesn't really need it with the Wikipedia link, the problem seems to be in using r/ or region/. I will have to look at Blantyre again. DonnanZ (talk) 23:23, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Rail quotes

Hi. Keep the rail quotes coming! Always great to see them being added by someone who's obsessively interested in a niche topic. Van Man Fan (talk) 23:15, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

@Van Man Fan: No worries. I have stacks (literally) of old magazines to go through, probably enough to keep me going for the rest of my life. At the moment I'm working through a new magazine. DonnanZ (talk) 23:24, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

But check carefully. A few recent tyops Seoovslfmo (talk) 23:29, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

Fixed. There were two errors actually, multiplied by copying and pasting. Thanks. DonnanZ (talk) 09:06, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

You are

You are an worthless and unlovable sack of shit, why you have done this

For the same reason there is no entry for William Shakespeare. DonnanZ (talk) 22:15, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Shakespeare is an England thang, do not blame Michael Jordan if Shakespeare are not used same way, Michael Jordan is an America thang and we all know you are very anti-American.

If this is WF, you were responsible for RFDing some entries I made, which were deleted. DonnanZ (talk) 23:26, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

That ain't Wonderfool's style, directly calling people a sack of shit. Denazz (talk) 18:15, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

PoS

Hello. What do you think should be the part of speech of station codes? I assumed they are proper nouns, but I wanted to be sure. Thank you! ·~ dictátor·mundꟾ 19:27, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

@Inqilābī: Do you mean railway station codes? ( Station code on Wikipedia.Wikipedia ). I would say they are proper nouns. Looking at JFK (an airport code), Translingual has it as a symbol, in English it's a proper noun. in both cases, the codes are based on proper nouns anyway. Looking at Twickenham, station code is TWI, not much different from the postcode TW, which covers the whole area around Twickenham. Sorry, I can't get your user name to register correctly. DonnanZ (talk) 20:11, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes I mean railway station codes. Thanks for explaining. I set about creating some station code entries recently, and created {{staco}} to make entry creation faster. (You registered my user name correctly, it’s just that I’ve got my user page deleted.) ·~ dictátor·mundꟾ 20:30, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

By the way let me know if you think this template needs any improvement. ·~ dictátor·mundꟾ 20:40, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm no expert on templates. I would need to see an example or two to judge. DonnanZ (talk) 20:49, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

For examples you gotta use the "What links here" option. :) ·~ dictátor·mundꟾ 21:45, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

@Inqilābī: Well, it works OK, but I'm not sure of the concept. Would an appendix be better, like Appendix:IATA airport codes? Or even Category:Station codes? DonnanZ (talk) 09:31, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Well editors mostly used to create such appendices in the past, and I see they are full of redlinks. I would prioritize on creating entries. This template automatically categorizes the entries under CAT:English abbreviations and CAT:en:Rail transportation (I’m not sure if CAT:Station codes is necessary, community consensus is needed; CAT:en:Rail transportation has only one subcategory at the moment). ·~ dictátor·mundꟾ 16:04, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

@Inqilābī: OK, the number of station codes is small at the moment, but if you are going to add many more, Category:Station codes as a subcategory is worth considering. DonnanZ (talk) 21:22, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

I created the subcategory now, after discussing in the BP: Category:en:Station codes. ·~ dictátor·mundꟾ 08:50, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

@Inqilābī: What can I say? Wonderful!

BTW, I revised EWW. The previous wording "The station code of England" was rather strange! DonnanZ (talk) 10:04, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Revised again by J3133. DonnanZ (talk) 10:30, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Oh, the intended wording was “The station code of Ewell West railway station in England”- after updating the template I missed to fix the error in that entry (2nd parameter is kept blank if the Wikipedia article about the railway station uses the same name you want to put). ·~ dictátor·mundꟾ 18:36, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Which day is it?

Tell us, we want to know. Bortkastningskonto (talk) 00:40, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Sockpuppet

I'm worried by your undisclosed use of a sock puppet, User:Denazz, which is obviously an alternative spelling of "Donnanz". Why would you do that?! PUC – 15:13, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

@PUC: It's not me, and I don't need and have never used a sock puppet - I did notice the similarity. I believe it's WF. DonnanZ (talk) 16:11, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

It is Wonderfool, actually. And the similarity is there, sure, but it is just different enough to be not confusing. Don't worry though, I'm sure Wonderfool will get a new account soon. Denazz (talk) 18:13, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

I wasn't bothered by it, but PUC was. DonnanZ (talk) 18:50, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Merry Christmas to you too!

Theknightwho (talk) 16:32, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

@Theknightwho: I reciprocate the greetings, but perhaps you'd like to look at the latest RFD. It seems to be a trans hub. DonnanZ (talk) 16:47, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

horseless high-stepping?

Hi! This quote you added doesn't seem to match. Are there horses involved at all? If not, add {{rfdef}} to the entry and User:Kiwima will come along and sort it out. Denazz (talk) 19:20, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

@Denazz: I didn't add the adjective, Sonofcawdrey did. I added the quote afterwards, which gives a figurative sense. No need to RFD. DonnanZ (talk) 19:49, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

I've been doing place names recently

It is a subset of a dictionary list I've been doing for a while, and most of them have good Wikipedia coverage. Nice to see you have filled a few of them in the meantime. I know I don't use the placey template but whatever, AI can fix that for us next week. Equinox ◑ 00:06, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

@Equinox: Yeah, I formatted one of your entries the other week. But you taught me something about "county town" the other day. Anyway, the more places the merrier. Picking them up from old magazines I have to contend with spelling errors or changes in spelling, Welsh names can be terrible. DonnanZ (talk) 00:23, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

rail train

Seems like sth you might enjoy... Demonicallt (talk) 20:41, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Another kind of rail train can be seen in an image added to long-welded. DonnanZ (talk) 22:15, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

lowry

Does this have another name? Phacromallus (talk) 13:14, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

@Phacromallus: I'm not familiar with the term, which is more than likely obsolete and American English, but it sounds very much like a gondola (type of open railway car with low sides), which is Am. Eng. My Oxford Dictionary of English says a gondola is an open railway freight wagon, no mention of low sides, so that could be a bit wrong in our entry. DonnanZ (talk) 14:50, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

start time and starting time

Greetings Donnanz,

Would you consider these two terms to be SoP? Cambridge dic. has an entry for "starting time".

Thank you. newfiles (talk) 19:10, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

@Mynewfiles: Hmm, you might get away with it - I notice Merriam-Webster also has "starting time" (the time something begins), nothing for "start time". If you decide to go ahead, one of them (start time?) can be treated as a synonym, and the dictionary references should be included. DonnanZ (talk) 22:35, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you kindly. newfiles (talk) 22:37, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

magic moment

How do you feel about this term? Too SoPish? Should I create it? There's a citations page that was created in 2022: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Citations:magic_moment newfiles (talk) 20:19, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

bufferhead

Hey! Which buffer do you think this refers to on trains? Denazz (talk) 09:46, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

@Denazz: The head of any buffer where fitted, the striking point. DonnanZ (talk) 09:56, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Quote

Hi. If you ever come across any mention of RHS (“Railway Clearing House”) in your rail magazines, could you please add a quotation in the entry? Thanks!! Inqilābī 13:56, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

I assume you mean RCH, not RHS? I may have passed over a few, but I'll be on the lookout for RCH. DonnanZ (talk) 17:58, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, that was a stupid typo- sorry. Awesome! Inqilābī 16:48, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Sortkeys

Hi - please don't add sort=St. to all the saint "St" entries, because all that does is mean the entries are all sorted as though they had the title "St.", so the category has no way of putting them in the correct order. We already established consensus for ignoring spaces and punctuation in English sortkeys already, so I'm not really sure what you're trying to achieve here. Theknightwho (talk) 15:12, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

@Theknightwho: That is exactly what I wanted, and it's working well. If you compare with the same section in Category:en:Places in the United States, where St. is used, it now matches that. Before, there was over 60 St (Saint) entries scattered between Sta-Sty, not ideal. They are now grouped together at the start of St entries. This is a special case, I don't think I will be using |sort= anywhere else. DonnanZ (talk) 16:03, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

@Donnanz Two issues:

1. We already established consensus to ignore spaces and punctuation with English, so we should abide by that. Personally, I would prefer if we didn't, for the same reason as you, but that's apparently how most English dictionaries do it, so that's what was decided.
2. Setting all of them as "St." means they get sorted at random between themselves, because the category thinks they're all the same.

Theknightwho (talk) 16:07, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

@Theknightwho: So you reverted them all, and we're back to the mess that existed before. Thanks for wasting my time. DonnanZ (talk) 16:22, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Were they really sorted at random? As I understand it, the page title is appended to the manually supplied sortkey, so they would be sorted by 'St.\nSt Leonards' for instance. So the sortkey shouldn't mess up the relative order between titles starting with St . — Eru·tuon 19:12, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

@Erutuon: No, they were sorted alphabetically, not at random. You can't tell now, as User:Theknightwho reverted the lot. You would need to reinstate them to see. DonnanZ (talk) 19:21, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

If they were sorting at random instead of alphabetically I would reverted them myself. DonnanZ (talk) 20:13, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

@Erutuon I honestly can't remember, but it's still not desirable because we lose all the other sorting features anyway. If we did make an exception for "St.", it would need to be implemented automatically, not by manually changing every entry. @Benwing2, thoughts? Theknightwho (talk) 19:27, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

@Theknightwho: Well, you should have checked before making that statement. I agree it should be automatic if it can be. DonnanZ was only doing it in place name categories, but we could do it in all categories. What's annoying is that pages with St. sort with ST. (no space) so they are all together in category lists, unlike pages with St (which are sorted with ST, again no space), but those have the same meaning. I wonder if there are other abbreviations that suffer from the same problem. — Eru·tuon 21:37, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

@Erutuon Alright, fair enough but it doesn't change the overall point that adding sort=St. prevents the rest of the term from having the correct sortkey (e.g. St Johns and St John's Wood would be in the wrong order), the fact that having lots of manual sortkeys is difficult to maintain, or the fact that we'd already established a consensus on English sortkeys anyway. You're right about the inconsistency between "St" and "St.", and I spotted the same thing earlier, but I think that was down to an oversight the last time we discussed this, so I've set the sortkey to ignore "." and "," for the time being. I will raise it for discussion.

That all being said, the main underlying issue here was that Donnanz was effectively implementing a special exception to the "ignore spaces" logic against what was agreed last time, which doesn't make sense: either we should do that for all terms, or we should do it for none of them, and a mass-change like this should have been discussed first, not implemented as a fait accompli. For what it's worth, I would prefer if we didn't ignore spaces, but sorting terms inconsistently doesn't help anyone. Theknightwho (talk) 22:10, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

@Theknightwho: To be fair, I did raise the matter in the Grease Pit. DonnanZ (talk) 22:51, 12 August 2024 (UTC)'

There can be inconsistencies between various templates when it comes to sorting variants like St Johns and St John's, which I noticed earlier in the day, when I created them. A standardised form of sorting should be in use for all templates. @Erutuon: What happens now? DonnanZ (talk) 22:32, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

@Donnanz Where were the inconsistencies? That sounds like a bug. Theknightwho (talk) 22:49, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

My edits were reverted out of spite, and for no other reason. They were reverted before I replied at 16:03. DonnanZ (talk) 17:47, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

@Donnanz No, it was for the two reasons I gave you. Theknightwho (talk) 18:29, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Don't expect me to believe that. DonnanZ (talk) 18:35, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

@Donnanz I care about the dictionary, not about you. Goodbye. Theknightwho (talk) 18:40, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

LOL, ha ha. DonnanZ (talk) 18:46, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Dvortygirl v2

I believe User:Flame, not lame is User:Dvortygirl reborn, you should contact her for your audio requests. PUC – 11:28, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

I know about her. She joined Wiktionary before I was born. Daily she inspires me. Flame, not lame 💔 (Don't talk to me.) 11:30, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Obviously posted on the wrong talk page. DonnanZ (talk) 11:51, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

[in a deep voice] Every generation, there is a chosen one, a maiden most fair who dwelleth in the land of the mighty golden eagle, who doth possess an angelic voice not only to spread words, but to spread inspiration, joy, and knowledge to the readers in this humble corner of the world wide web. Down in history they shall go as harbingers of the ancient wiki spirit of selflessness and dedication. Forsooth, with the power invested in me as five-time administrator, I hereby proclaim Flame, not lame a fricking awesome WT dudess. P. Sovjunk (talk) 12:03, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Oh my gosh! That is beautiful! 'Tis an honor to receive this prestigous proclamation at the young age of 16. Flame, not lame 💔 (Don't talk to me.) 12:31, 13 October 2024 (UTC)