Sinkalip

DON'T BITE THE NEWCOMER

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:BITE

Sinixt language article needed

Why don't you do something useful for Wikipedia instead of deleting mention of other tribes from a dozen articles today?? All your edits have been reversed as WP:POV and otherwise contrary to Wikipedia guidelines. And they will be reverted again in future. I've re-added the Sinixt language name for the Columbia River to that article after your deletion of mention of the Ktunaxa and Tsuu Tina, and it gave me pause to think "well maybe they can do something useful instead of wasting my time all day" by creating the needed Sinixt language article. There are many editors in Wikipedia:WikiProject Languages and {{NorthAmNative}} who can and are ready to help with a language page. If you really want to add to Wikipedia mention of your people and their culture, that's the way to do it. NOT by deleting material that you don't like or doesn't fit your POV. That you've deleted cited material a few times today is sufficient to cause a block, since you only edit on one topic you are called a WP:SPA. Nothing wrong with being a specialist, but something very wrong with being a wrecking crew. You've used up a good hour or two of my time today fixing the articles you damaged (WP doesn't load fast from where I am). Please make your presence here constructive, rather than destructive, in future.Skookum1 (talk) 17:57, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

I am trying to do something useful, i'm trying to get the verifiable truth of the regions' history, what i'm trying to do is remove political content from historical articles. Political claims should not be in history sections without verifiable references. Just because modern day politics dictate modern day land claims through a colonial treaty process does not mean that history should be falsely re-written. I do not believe the need to block me as i believe this is unbiased work... there is no verifiability with the ktunaxa claims and placenames in the area. Are you aware that indigenous people of the Arrow Lakes/Columbia River Headwaters are Salish in Origin and lived in pit-houses in the winter. Are you then aware that Ktunaxa are not Salish in origin and that they never lived in pit-houses and that claim is verifiable. Are you aware of the massive amount of ethnographical and archeaological documents that exist to verify Sinixt territory?

Wikipedia's 3 Core content Policies "Neutral point of view" is one of Wikipedia's three core content policies. The other two are "Verifiability" and "No original research". These three core policies jointly determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in Wikipedia articles. Because these policies work in harmony, they should not be interpreted in isolation from one another, and editors should try to familiarize themselves with all three. The principles upon which this policy is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, or by editors' consensus. Sorry i'm not a total wiki-geek but i'll do my best to follow protocol that's really what i'm trying to do. And listen i'm not trying to start a fight so please change your tone and treat me with respect, and i'll do the same. (Sinkalip) (talk) 27 April 2013

Then stop deleting material like you have been doing, and persistently. The passages about the Ktunaxa and others are in cited materials attached to each page, they're not item-cited, unless for each mention, the Columbia, Moses, and Cayuse for example, as well as the Okanagan and Secwepemc. Your planting of the Sinixt name for the Columbia at the head of the list of native names, as on other pages where you've wiped cites entirely while putting your people's name first, or only, is highly POV. It is NOT NPOV. You have an obvious POV (and WP:COI) and should be mindful of that, and show respect for information concerning others, instead of just blanking it and planting Sinixt history over every article you can find, while wiping mention of anyone else. And other than writing the language article, which you seem qualified to do, you might try being constructive by finding cites for the Ktunaxa and Secwepemc and Okanagan presence, instead of pretending those cites don't exist. Plain enough? Others are watching the articles now for more POV deletions by you now, btw.Skookum1 (talk) 03:16, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

THIS is a very good example of your disregard for other content, you broke up the Chinookan section, and put your own people's name for the river ahead of the Sahaptin one; I've put things in their proper order.....and, now, will spend part of my day finding and adding the Colville, Kettle, Okanagan and Shuswap names to the section....and the Blackfoot one if I can find it. Your people are not more important than other peoples and your claim of being NPOV is utterly ridiculous.Skookum1 (talk) 03:24, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

I am definitely not trying to make anyone more important than any other. I see you have made good changes, i apologize for the carelessness in erasing the Chinookan sentence you refered to this was not done in haste i assure you. Sinixt people are also not federal recognized in Canada since we were extincted by Canada.

That has nothing to do with your deletions of mentions of the Okanagan, Shuswap and Ktunaxa on the pages you have edited.Skookum1 (talk) 07:28, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

The only reason there is so many land claims in the area is because the Sinixt were removed from Canada and declared extinct and then various Indian Band Councils under the Indian Act moved in through the BC Treaty Process to steal Sinixt Lands. Just look and find Sophie Pierre (ktunaxa) at the head of the Treaty Commission. That's why i deleted them, maybe i shouldn't have now that i understand that you can post LIES to wikipedia as long as you have one reference. I can come to consensus with the regions indigenous people and the traditional territories being defined as "claimed" rather than "lived", "used" or "occupied" as it is truly not historically accurate for any groups other than Sinixt people to say so. Unless the indigenous history you are writing about starts when the colonizers and settlers arrived. This is not just my opinion but that of academics and scholars. (Sinkalip) 1:43 April 28 2013 (PST)

I don't normally just delete things from wiki... I've added some content and references for multiple pages, when i found historically inaccurate references in history sections i removed them, and yeah i changed a bunch of sites. I only want the historical truth to be presented.

Do I have to show you each and every bit you've deleted in the last 48 hours? what is inaccurate to you is in the sources given; your pretension that this is not the case is highly POV.

For the record Sinixt people are part of the Colville Confederated Tribes and it is not historically accurate to refer to indigenous people as a term such as "Colville" when "Colville Indians" was not even a term until the establishment of Fort Colville and the creation of the Confederated Tribes of Colville. This goes for many of the groups who were forced onto reservations in the Columbia Plateau.

Tell that to the people from the Colville Reservation who helped write that article.Skookum1 (talk) 07:28, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

We do! We try to let everyone on the Colville Rez know that they have unique cultures and languages, that they aren't just Colville's Indians.Just like Metis people seek to find their Cree and Anishnabek cultures and languages. like i said before Colville Indians have only existed for 140 or so years.

(Sinkalip) 1:55 AM April 28 2013 (PST) What happens when i produce dozens of references to the areas being Sinixt territory and when there is only two references to those of the other groups who lay political claims? I'm just going from the ethnographic records, archaeological records, government archives, HBC Journals, BC Supreme Court documents, and oral histories that verify this information.

Yeah, fine, do that; but "when there are only two references to those of the other groups who lay political claims" that's a fallacy and you know it; if you don't then you should educate yourself. And it doesn't matter how many sources there are, that a source (especially an academic or other Reliable source says it, it's a source and what it says can be included.Skookum1 (talk) 07:28, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

You can read and learn alot about Sinixt on the Sinixt Nation website See: Http://sinixtnation.org and through the many documents and maps and you can find there. I'd also point people to the most recent professional archaeological studies of the area and a Dr. Nathan Goodale see: [1] I'm not trying to be political but its hard when Sinixt people have been declared extinct and that there are layers of deceit that surround that fact. And thanks i'll get started on that Sinixt language page but really to do an accurate page we might have to make some changes to the Okanagan language page. I'll do my best to get my wiki-geek on.(Sinkalip)

Given your track record I'll be monitoring your changes to the Okanagan language page closely, and don't presume I haven't looked at your website nor know nothing about your people. With the Okanagan language page, be advised that it is also watched by Okanagan people and a host of scholars, don't rewrite it according to your own POV/bias; add to it, don't delete stuff. You also may benefit by joining {{tl:NorthAmNative}} and consulting with other indigenous authors in general.Skookum1 (talk) 05:02, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Are you paid to do this? It is clear you have an opinion. (Sinkalip)

Are you in attack mode?? No, I'm not paid to do this, I receive no funding of any kind. Perhaps unlike yourself, hm? It is clear that I have a respect for the sources and for what is correct, but I do not have respect for people who accuse me of things such as you have just done.

No actually i'm in defense mode.(Sinkalip) 2:00 AM April 28 2013 (PST)

And talk about having your own bias. The Okanagan language page should be Titled Colville-Okanagan at least, i believe Dorothy & Kennedey coined the termed and that is the phrase they use. And all throughout the article it says COLVILLE-OKANAGAN. Other than that i wouldn't change anything in a negitive way i'm not trying to do that. (Sinkalip)

WHATEVER gave you the idea that *I* titled that page??????Skookum1 (talk) 07:28, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

I meant the Okanagan Nation Alliance having a WP:POV obviously they or people affiliated are trying to pervert everything to their benefit that's why the Colville Okanagan language is now just referred to as Okanagan language. It seems like you have bought into the historical smear campaign. (Sinkalip) 1:33 AM April 28 2013 (PST)

As far as i know i don't have a track record except for an honest mistake, which you entirely freaked out about on the Columbia River page... i apologized. And to address doing something for my people, what do you think i'm doing...

Trying to wipe away mentions of other peoples, pretty simple.Skookum1 (talk) 07:28, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

i try to learn cultural and spiritual ways like going to sweatlodges and ceremonies, tanning hides, fishing and preserving salmon, reburying ancestral remains, building pithouses, etc. so forgive me for not having an equal desire to being as good at editing on wikipedia as you. I do not get paid for this and I am not trying to make your life difficult.

and here's the Sinixt Nation language page on http://sinixtnation.org/content/language (Sinkalip)

DUH I told you I've already seen it, and your claim that you made only one "honest" mistake when you've made many vandal edits with no regard for what was already there is your track record that I was referring to. As for the Okanagan language page, that's the result of a collaborative effort by WP:WikiProject Languages and WP:WikiProject Endangered Languages and WP:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North Ameerica and WP:WikiProject Washington participants and others, before you start altering it you should read Talk:Colville-Okanagan and related pages and discussions (some of which may be on the talkpages of those projects) as to what has already been discussed. There's reasons things are the way they are in Wikipedia, which is far more governed by consensus and convention than it is by the guidelines, which are only a frame of reference (other than critical material like WP:BLP and WP:COPYVIO. You should also read WP:SOAP and WP:OWN .......Skookum1 (talk) 06:58, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Sinkalip here's a start to a Sinixt language article. I intend to continue to add to it over time. Perhaps you would like to help flesh it out? Thanks. Kootenayvolcano (talk) 19:00, 29 April 2013 (UTC) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinixt_dialect

not a minor edit

This was not a minor edit, as you had marked it; if I'd set my watchlist to "hide minor edits" I wouldn't have seen it - but you deleted a cited reference that was already there, and was attached to an item you have previously tried to delete entirely. That is NOT a "minor edit" - that term being reserved for typos, punctuation, bot-changed categories or other objects etc; and taking away the cite for the Ktunaxa term will leave that open for someone else to delete it as "uncited". Please add cites, don't delete them, you're not simplifying things.....and you just wasted more of my time fixing what you've done....Skookum1 (talk) 07:21, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

It should be it is a mistake. I said it was in reference to the Sinixt reference not the Ktunaxa reference. Its from a book about Sinixt people not ktunaxa people. I'm holding it open to page 154 right now there are only Sinixt names listed in the book. i don't know how the reference was put in there. I'm not trying to cause problems. I'm not gonna delete it cause i don't want you to freak out at me anymore.

This is a culturally sensitive matter. I can give you at least 24 placenames along the Columbia River that are Sinixt in origin. Please don't bite the newcomers. I am hearing your suggestions. I'll stick to adding references. (Sinkalip)

it's a culturally sensitive matter when a member of one tribe starts changing articles to delete mentions of other tribes, that's for certain. And as for that cite, it may be about the Sinixt but why was it there in the first place citing the Ktunaxa name as it did, if that were not also in the book. There are other sources for the Ktunaxa, deleting a reference - or hijacking it in the course of supplanting your own WP:OWN information is not the right thing to do; the right thing is to go looking for references. The Ktunaxa, too, have placenames throughout the Lower Kootenay and lower Columbia.....perhaps you should deign to read their site or search for refs rather than ignoring them. It's also not the only cite you've deleted and/or altered. If you don't know why that cite was included, maybe there's something past page 154 you should be looking for; or you could look in the article's history and find the editor who inserted it and ask them. I suspect it's in there, you just dno't want to find it.....Skookum1 (talk) 08:09, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

listen man this reference is wack, it's wrong why don't you figure out who posted it, it's clearly a mistake. There's nothing past page 154 except more sinixt placenames for the entire West Kootenays Listen man i know what i'm talking about. This shouldn't be difficult but is necessary, if you don't want to delete it, maybe someone else will. like i said i don't want to upset you anymore.

I am well aware of the ktunaxa information, there is plenty of shared family history between SInixt in the last 300 years. It is the ktunaxa families with Sinixt ancestry who learned to build the sturgeon-nose canoe now commonly called a kutenai canoe. I am well aware that Ktunaxa placenames such as "where 2 rivers meet" they call this the name for the place everywhere where 2 rivers meet! Sinixt names were well documented. (Sinkalip) 1:21 am April 28 2013

Use the article history to find the editor who inserted it and ask why, your word that it's not in there is not sufficient at this point, "given your track record".Skookum1 (talk) 08:25, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Recusing myself

I can't remember the "[[WP:]]" for it, but I'm recusing myself from this issue and referring this matter to the talkpage at {{NorthAmNative}} for other editors to deal with. I have no agenda nor axe to grind, other than knowing what is wiki-right and I don't need the hostility, nor do I need to have to spend hours fixing what are effectively nuisance edits, and not really WP:Good faith ones either that I can excuse that way. There are Ktunaxa/Ksanka users out there, including those who have been working on content about their own people; you'll probably find them in Ktunaxa-topic article histories and talkpages.....and I suggest you collaborate with them on anything that involves both your peoples. It could very well be that the Ktunaxa name was supplanted in an act of "cultural vandalism", though I doubt it is from any regular editor, Ktunaxa or otherwise; the same could be the case with what appeared about the Colville confederacy; those pages are on my watchlist but I can't possibly see them all, and I was absent from Wikipedia for a good year and a half. I have no more time for this an am bored of being lectured about "cultural sensitivity". That has been addressed over and over in Wikipedia talkpage discussions and that's why {{NorthAmNative}} exists, to expedite coverage that is both true to wiki principles but also has fair cultural balance not just between non-native and native history/culture, but between native peoples, especially those with histories of conflict. The Ktunaxa, also, have lots of documented place names; but you have no interest in those and only in your own, it seems. And I know what's in some of your oral histories and versions of events about the white presence; about how (somewhere in the Sinixt accounts in circulation) whites raped and killed and cannibalized their way around the Slocan.....yet the HBC did not do this, nor did the silver miners nor railway builders. So who? My theory is Boone Helm, but never mind that for now. I'm done here, I hope some of my friends in {{NorthAmNative}} are of help to you and I urge you to step outside your own "cultural agenda" and do more than just Sinixt-oriented (and Sinixt-biased) edits. Maybe in learning about other native peoples you will learn more about your own than you have so far imagined. I'm far away, I was protecting Wikipedia's integrity (such as it is) by my reversions of your edits, but I tire of this. I'm an old man, I don't need the stress of being told how to write and what to read and what I should know; I suggested you write the language page, you threw a link back at me as if I should. Here's an idea, for you to work on with your Ktunaxa colleagues out there, Wars between the Sinixt and Ktunaxa is just waiting to be written; whether as whole article or as sections in the various local articles. Just don't write it from the Sinixt point of view only. It's late in my time zone, I'll make the post to NorthAmNative tomorrow.Skookum1 (talk) 16:11, 28 April 2013 (UTC)