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The Bugle: Issue 219, July 2024
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Your edit to the short description for Treblinka
editI saw that you just changed the short description for the Treblinka extermination camp page, removing the important word "extermination." https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Treblinka_extermination_camp&diff=next&oldid=1234465441 I have no problem with you adding "Nazi" or changing "near Treblinka, Poland" to "in Poland" but the word "extermination" is significant enough that it should be both in the page title and the short description. Yes, it appears to be redundant to have the word "extermination" in both the title and description, but the word "camp" has too many meanings to be left alone. The word "extermination" is necessary for disambiguation for the word Treblinka, as it is used here: Treblinka (disambiguation) AndyBloch (talk) 17:21, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- "Extermination" is already in the title, so it is unnecessary to have in the short description per WP:SDDUPLICATE. If you think that readers will be so confused by what type of camp Treblinka is after seeing the title "Treblinka extermination camp" and the short description "Nazi German camp in Poland in World War II" that "extermination" has to be used twice, then perhaps you should start a page move request on the talk page to discuss a clearer name for the article. ---- Patar knight - chat/contributions 17:29, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- What I'm saying is that the word "extermination" needs to be repeated for context, just like the word "camp" is repeated. Furthermore, leaving out the word "extermination" seems judgmental, suggesting that Treblinka was just a camp, not an extermination camp. (Holocaust deniers and minimizers thrive on wording like this.)
- Here's an example where a word from the title is repeated in the short description: Hitler Youth has the short description "Youth organisation of the Nazi Party." You wouldn't want to remove the word "Youth" because the word "organisation" is too generic. The word "camp" is likewise too generic to remove the first word of the compound noun. AndyBloch (talk) 19:25, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- "Camp" is repeated because it is basically necessary, since the alternatives are longer and/or more ambiguous (e.g. "facility", "building", "complex"). This is similar to how "war" is repeated in the SDs of many articles that already have that in the title. I have not removed "extermination" from the title, so trying to say that this change somehow helps Holocaust deniers is ridiculous. The article title very clearly describes Treblinka as an extermination camp, and if you feel that does not provide enough context for what Treblinka is, then you should propose a new article title.
- The Hitler Youth SD is less than 40 characters, so having duplicate words is less of an issue in terms of WP:SDLENGTH. Secondly, there is some value in including "youth" because the "Youth" in the title is part of a proper noun and there is the possibility of confusion with other organization types (e.g. juvenile sports clubs, see Category:UEFA Youth League teams). It's useful to clarify that it is a general youth organization and not something more specific. This is not the case for the Treblinka article, since "extermination" is not a proper noun and the other entries at the DAB page are not plausibly connected with extermination. -- Patar knight - chat/contributions 20:43, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- Have you ever edited Treblinka extermination camp in the past? I am asking you as someone who has edited the page and studied Treblinka and other Nazi extermination camps, concentration camps, internment camps, transit camps, forced-labor camps, etc., that you please put the word "extermination" back in the description. (I would do it myself but I do not have 500 edits and the page protection has changed.)
- (You should think twice before calling an argument "ridiculous" that you haven't studied. Read enough of the arguments that Holocaust deniers make and you will learn that their arguments and dog whistles often stem from even smaller minutiae.)
- Here are some short descriptions for other Nazi concentration camp articles. I have found zero short descriptions which include "camp" alone, without being part of a compound noun.
- Dachau concentration camp Nazi concentration camp in Germany before and during World War II
- Drancy internment camp Internment camp for Jews in occupied France during World War II
- Auschwitz concentration camp German network of concentration and extermination camps in occupied Poland during World War II
- Bergen-Belsen concentration camp Nazi concentration camp
- Belzec extermination camp Nazi German death camp in occupied Poland
- Chełmno extermination camp German extermination camp in Poland during World War II
- Sobibor extermination camp Nazi extermination camp in Poland
- Majdanek concentration camp Nazi concentration camp
- Westerbork transit camp Nazi transit camp for Jews in the occupied Netherlands
- For comparison with other topics, here are baseball team pages that include the city in both the title and short description. I don't think you should start removing the city from them without discussing it first with other editors.
- Philadelphia Phillies Major League Baseball franchise in Philadelphia
- New York Yankees and New York Mets Major League Baseball franchise in New York City
- Los Angeles Dodgers Major League Baseball franchise in Los Angeles, California
- Please add "extermination" back to the description. AndyBloch (talk) 23:13, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- I have not previously edited the page, but please see WP:OWN. I have edited plenty of articles related to the Holocaust and I took an IRL course on Nazi Germany in college, so you should stop baselessly accusing me of not having studied the topic.
- You are accusing me of unknowingly abetting Holocaust denialism by using "camp" instead of "extermination camp" in the short description. The article itself frequently uses "camp" instead of "extermination camp" to describe Treblinka. Were the editors who did that abetting Holocaust denialism? Were you turning a blind eye to Holocaust denialism by not changing this before the article's protection level was changed? No, because that's a ridiculous argument.
- The variance in short descriptions for Nazi concentration camps, lack of talk page discussions, and some clear violations of WP:SDLENGTH, show that there clearly isn't an agreed upon short description format for the area. One of the goals for short descriptions is disambiguation (WP:SDPURPOSE), so dates and location are frequently encouraged. Here, since there is a duplicate word, such helpful extra information could be inserted in its place.
- I fail to see the relevance of the sports examples. Repeating geographic information for sports teams in the SD is often helpful because teams might not be based in where they are named (e.g. the New York Jets play in New Jersey, despite still being in the greater NYC metro area) and the location itself may be ambiguous (e.g. Los Angeles, California vs. Los Angeles County, New York State vs. New York City). Here, there's no real concern about what "extermination camp" means. -- Patar knight - chat/contributions 01:35, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- Where did I claim any sort of ownership of the page? Where did I accuse you of not having studied the general topic? My point is that you did not edit this particular page before. I am simply asking that you give some deference to me as a prior editor of the page when I say that the word "extermination" is important as part of the compound noun. One word. That's it. Instead of taking my argument seriously you literally called part of it "ridiculous." It's frankly very off-putting to people like me that periodically try to contribute to Wikipedia in good faith only to have prolific editors belittle their arguments .
- Informing someone that an edit could be unknowingly abetting something is not an accusation of wrongdoing. It was meant to help you understand the full effect of your edit. Nevertheless, there's a conspiracy theory about Treblinka specifically that it was just a transit camp or labor camp. Here are some posts on X for example: https://x.com/azgh54kk9/status/1797284730142118338 https://x.com/vax_dodger/status/1801224924951912675 https://x.com/MEMRIReports/status/1617451885832835074 https://x.com/K31k3sR31ch3n/status/1809973139025088552
- Comparing usage of a word in the short description to its use in the body of the article is a straw man argument. Of course in the article a shorthand will be used when it's clear, just like pronouns are used. Similarly, the article frequently uses "Treblinka" instead of "the Treblinka extermination camp."
- There may be excessive variance in the short descriptions of Nazi concentration and other camps, but none of them (except for your edits) used "camp" except as part of a compound noun.
- I could have used many other examples besides the sports teams. They are relevant because they show that redundant words are frequently left in, even ones much longer and less consequential and controversial than "extermination." Also, you took out "near Treblinka." Why should "near Treblinka" be removed but "Los Angeles" or "Philadelphia" remain for baseball teams? Note also that sports teams move, and the articles usually include information about the teams prior to the moves, so the the location isn't that significant.
- (There's only one MLB team that has a short description without the location, due to this edit in the last 2 months: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Baltimore_Orioles&diff=prev&oldid=1226308840 I wouldn't be too surprised if some earlier editor had spent time making all of the MLB short descriptions consistent. I think that the locations could all be removed, but I'd also leave it up to baseball editors to make the decision, and not make the change to just one or two teams.) AndyBloch (talk) 08:03, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- WP:OWN does not mean literal ownership, but includes attitudes such as asking for deference because of factors such who has edited an article or not. You also literally said
"You should think twice before calling an argument "ridiculous" that you haven't studied"
above. - Your position is that seeing "Treblinka extermination camp - Nazi German camp in Poland in World War II" is unacceptably inviting of Holocaust denialism because it does not say "Treblinka extermination camp - Nazi German extermination camp in Poland in World War II". The issue is that "extermination" is already in the title, so it is redundant to have in the short description as well per WP:SDDUPLICATE, as the two will almost always appear together.
- I would see your point if the article was at Treblinka, Treblinka Camp, or Treblinka Extermination Camp in the counterfactual example where that is a proper name, since all those titles would be helped by a short description clarifying that it was an extermination camp in actuality and not just a random camp or called "Extermination Camp". But we are already calling Treblinka an "extermination camp" once in WP:WIKIVOICE. If only doing so once is such a terrible thing, then I would strongly encourage you to try and change the article title, because the article title appears by itself far frequently than shorts descriptions, which essentially never do so. -- Patar knight - chat/contributions 06:31, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- WP:OWN does not mean literal ownership, but includes attitudes such as asking for deference because of factors such who has edited an article or not. You also literally said
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The Bugle: Issue 220, August 2024
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The Bugle: Issue 221, September 2024
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Hello Patar knight,
I just noticed Special:Diff/1249951914/1250008896 and wondered if you had intentionally edited through full protection, which mostly applies to administrators as well and requires uncontroversial or clearly-backed-by-consensus changes.
Best regards,
~ ToBeFree (talk) 07:22, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
- Definitely didn't realize. Would have posted on the talk page first if I had, though it seems the dispute was largely about WP:UNDUE issues with the lead, though admittedly topics related to what I added, and has now died though (and the full protection expired). I will make a post now just in case however. ---- Patar knight - chat/contributions 19:38, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
- Ah, no worries, thanks! 🙂 And yeah, I agree that the dispute was about different content, so even if it had been intentional, it would have been far from using the tools to continue an edit war during page protection. It just looked strange enough to make me wonder. 😊 ~ ToBeFree (talk) 00:40, 9 October 2024 (UTC)
- (Also, it wasn't reverted for 24 hours now, so I guess it was indeed uncontroversial and thus fine anyway. I just lacked an overview of the other editors' views.) ~ ToBeFree (talk) 00:46, 9 October 2024 (UTC)
- Ah, no worries, thanks! 🙂 And yeah, I agree that the dispute was about different content, so even if it had been intentional, it would have been far from using the tools to continue an edit war during page protection. It just looked strange enough to make me wonder. 😊 ~ ToBeFree (talk) 00:40, 9 October 2024 (UTC)
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YOu wrote: Not sure why this was reverted. Wikidata short descriptions do not show up for readers
- Sorry, my bad, I didnt pay attention to this wikimedia bug (or feature :-). --Altenmann >talk 03:25, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- No worries. When it came out in 2017 Wikidata did show automatically unless there was no local short description until 2020 (see: Wikipedia:Short description#History). The Wikidata entries were often problematic since they were automatically generated and were often wrong. -- Patar knight - chat/contributions 05:03, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
The Bugle: Issue 223, November 2024
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