User talk:Colin/Archive 13

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Quarter Million Award for Dementia with Lewy bodies

	The Quarter Million Award
	For your contributions to bring Dementia with Lewy bodies (estimated annual readership: 392,000) to Featured Article status, I hereby present you the Quarter Million Award. Congratulations on this rare accomplishment, and thanks for all you do for Wikipedia's readers! Reidgreg (talk) 14:11, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Reidgreg, thanks very much. -- Colin°^Talk 14:44, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

	The Million Award
	For your contributions to bring Ketogenic diet (estimated annual readership: 2,400,000) to Featured Article status, I hereby present you the Million Award. Congratulations on this rare accomplishment, and thanks for all you do for Wikipedia's readers! Reidgreg (talk) 16:14, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Here's this one as well, and added to the Million Award Hall of Fame. – Reidgreg (talk) 16:14, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Old Royal Naval College

An image created by you has been promoted to featured picture status Your image, File:Old Royal Naval College 2017-08-06.jpg, was nominated on Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates, gained a consensus of support, and has been promoted. If you would like to nominate an image, please do so at Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates. Thank you for your contribution! Armbrust The Homunculus 01:19, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

List

What to do with a mess like List of figures in psychiatry ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:33, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Sandy I looked at it, and then I looked at about 20 other "List of ___" pages, and only found one that had even a few citations. It seems generally these are all unsourced. Referenced lists of people are hard work, so unless you particularly want a great list of figures in psychiatry, I'd be tempted to just leave alone. -- Colin°^Talk 10:35, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Scope of publishing your Wikipedia article in academic journals

You have done a overwhelming lot of work on the article Ketogenic diet. The article is within the scope of WikiProject Epilepsy and as the Editor in Chief of the ILAE Wikipedia Project I welcome you to join the project. I also welcome you to co-publish this Wikipedia article in some open access academic journal. This would automatically acknowledge your contributions by providing you with author credits. If you are interested, do not hesitate to reach out to me and we can get working on it. Diptanshu 💬 09:55, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Hi Diptanshu Das. I've applied to join the ILAE project. I'm not sure where I fit into your levels of editors, though, which seems a bit restrictive. My opinion about Wikipedia has always been that it is a community project, open to anyone, to write a free-content encyclopaedia. So currently I'm not bothered about achieving academic credits, particularly when I know how much support I've received from other editors who would not be credited. I hope the primary focus of this project is to write great Wikipedia articles, for the general reader, rather than to write journal papers for other medics. Thanks for the invite. -- Colin°^Talk 11:16, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for your response. I understand that you are not very active currently but still would encourage you to carry on the good work that you have been doing. I have been a Wikipedian for more than 12 years and have been editing medical articles due to the sheer charm of it and not for academic credits. The purpose of my involvement in the current role remains just the same and I seek to gain from your commitment and experience, especially because of its inclination to epilepsy. I would seek your assistance in shaping the project. The purpose with which I am working is to bring academicians to Wikipedia and to infuse the spirit of Wikipedia into them. Meanwhile, the articles within the scope of the project would get developed.

The article Ketogenic diet already is a featured article. I plan to expose it to the ILAE experts for their take on the topic. I am quite certain that they would be satisfied but possibly they would have a few inputs. I would join hands with you in making updates, if they are needed.

I would urge you to have a look at the plan I have developed and would seek your feedback on the same. If you are willing, I would like to connect off-wiki with you. You can write to me at das.diptanshu @ gmail . com - Diptanshu 💬 11:34, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of User:Colin/PriceMistakes

A tag has been placed on User:Colin/PriceMistakes requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section U5 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the page appears to consist of writings, information, discussions, and/or activities not closely related to Wikipedia's goals. Please note that Wikipedia is not a free web hosting service. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such pages may be deleted at any time.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the deleting administrator, or if you have already done so, you can place a request here. --TheImaCow (talk • contribs) 16:16, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

File:Mount Stuart House 2018-08-25.jpg scheduled for POTD

Hi Colin,

This is to let you know that the featured picture File:Mount Stuart House 2018-08-25.jpg, which you uploaded or nominated, has been selected as the English Wikipedia's picture of the day (POTD) for September 18, 2020. A preview of the POTD is displayed below and can be edited at Template:POTD/2020-09-18. If you have any concerns, please place a message at Wikipedia talk:Picture of the day. Thank you! Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:55, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Mount Stuart House is a country house built in the Gothic Revival style situated on the east coast of the Isle of Bute, Scotland. It is the ancestral home of the Marquesses of Bute. The original house was constructed by Alexander McGill in 1719, but was redesigned by Sir Robert Rowand Anderson and rebuilt for the 3rd Marquess following a fire on 3 December 1877. It is built from reddish-brown stone; major features include the colonnaded Marble Hall at the centre of the main block, and the Marble Chapel with its elaborate spired tower. It was the first home in Scotland to be lit by electricity and claims to have been the first to have an indoor heated pool.

Photograph credit: Colin

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WP:MED Newsletter - November 2020

Issue 6—November 2020

WikiProject Medicine Newsletter

Greetings. This month marks the return of the project's long-dormant collaboration of the month! With some luck and effort, perhaps we can keep it going. I hope you're all finding ways to remain sane during another tumultuous month. Ready or not, here is what's happening around the project:

Newly recognized content

Seminal vesicles nom. Tom (LT), reviewed by Berchanhimez Endell Street Military Hospital nom. G. Moore and Dormskirk, reviewed by Amitchell125 Horace Smithy nom. Larry Hockett, reviewed by Ajpolino UPMC Children's Hospital of Pittsburgh nom. Andrew nyr, reviewed by HickoryOughtShirt?4 Intravenous therapy nom. Berchanhimez, reviewed by Tom (LT) Vitamin K nom. David notMD, reviewed by Tom (LT) Homeopathy nom. Aircorn, review by Berchanhimez

Nominated for review

Parkinson's disease now a featured article removal candidate. Discussion here Alzheimer's disease Notice of impending featured article review is at the talk page. Anatomical terms of location nom. Tom (LT), under review by ArnabSaha and Aircorn Charles Bingham Penrose nom. Larry Hockett Louise Boursier nom. Doug Coldwell Intramuscular injection nom. Berchanhimez Blood culture nom. Spicy Late onset congenital adrenal hyperplasia nom. Maxim Masiutin

News from around the site

• The WP:MED Collaboration of the Month returns for a trial run. We'll concentrate our efforts for November on Tonsillitis. Please help improve that article, and head to the planning page to nominate articles for future collaboration.
• An open contributor copyright investigation involves edits to ~50 medicine pages that need to be checked for copyright infringement. I've left some short instructions here for the uninitiated. Every little bit helps.

Discussions of interest

• Ongoing discussions consider redesigning the GA/FA icons and moving them to a more prominent place in articles.

For a list of ongoing discussions in WP:MED-tagged articles, see Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine/Discussions
Also, a reminder to see Article Alerts for a list of medicine-related AfDs, CfDs, merge discussions, and more!

Discuss this issue

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Ajpolino (talk) 20:56, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

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WikiProject Medicine Newsletter - December 2020

Issue 7—December 2020

WikiProject Medicine Newsletter

Hello. I hope this newsletter finds you well. For those struggling to focus on writing articles during these tumultuous times, you are not alone. For those stuck at home with more time and energy to dedicate to the encyclopedia, all the more power to you. There is – as always – lots to do. Here is what's happening around the project:

Newly recognized content

Intramuscular injection nom. Berchanhimez, reviewed by Bibeyjj

Nominated for review

Buruli ulcer nom. Ajpolino Anatomical terms of location nom. Tom (LT), under review by ArnabSaha and Aircorn Charles Bingham Penrose nom. Larry Hockett Louise Boursier nom. Doug Coldwell Blood culture nom. Spicy Late onset congenital adrenal hyperplasia nom. Maxim Masiutin Friedreich's ataxia nom. Akrasia25 Fish allergy nom. David notMD, under review by Bibeyjj Kivu Ebola epidemic nom. Ozzie10aaaa UPMC Presbyterian nom. Andrew nyr Crown (anatomy) nom. Bibeyjj Alzheimer's disease Notice of impending featured article review at talk. Management of multiple sclerosis Notice of impending FAR at talk. Major depressive disorder Notice of impending FAR at talk.

News from around the site

• As you can see, the medicine GA queue is full-to-bursting, with the oldest medicine nomination waiting over three months for review. Please help review when you have time, so your colleagues can move on to their next projects.
• The WP:MED Collaboration of the Month was Tonsillitis, attracting edits from 11 medicine editors! December's collaboration will be Dexamethasone. Head to Talk:Dexamethasone to coordinate our efforts.
• Thanks to the medicine editors who helped out, Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/Walidou47 is now closed. If you see other medicine-related backlogs that you'd like announced in the newsletter, please post them here.

Discussions of interest

• There is a large, ongoing discussion regarding the status of subject-specific notability criteria.
• The Community Wishlist Survey is live until December 7th.

For a list of ongoing discussions in WP:MED-tagged articles, see Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine/Discussions
Also, a reminder to see Article Alerts for a list of medicine-related AfDs, CfDs, merge discussions, and more!

A WP:MED editor pulls yet another unsourced stub from the pile, thrilled by its immense potential.

Backlog of the month
This month I'm trying out a new element of the newsletter – a backlog of the month. The WikiProject Medicine template is on the talk page of 44,944 articles, of which 18,111 have some kind of maintenance tag on them, indicating problems large or small. Each month, I'll highlight some small task to get you out of your normal editing focus and chip away at the project's massive maintenance backlogs. I'll aim for tasks that can be worked on in small chunks, perhaps on days when you can't focus on big problems, or have 15 minutes to burn at your computer.

The first backlog of the month will be the 410 medicine articles that cite no sources. These tend to be lower-traffic topics. Some just need verification that the topic actually exists, along with a quick reference. Others are best redirected to more substantial pages, or even brought to AfD. Feel free to scroll through the list for topics that interest you, or just start at the top. This feature will last as long as folks are interested enough to engage with it. If you see backlogs that would be a good fit, post them here. Thanks all, and happy referencing!

Discuss this issue

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Ajpolino (talk) 01:34, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Greetings of the season

I Am Half-Sick of Shadows, Said the Lady of Shalott		Happy holidays
		Dear Colin, For you and all your loved ones, "Let there be mercy". Wishing you health, peace and happiness this holiday season and in the coming year. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:10, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

COVID-19 vaccine

This edit was not helpful. Before you start criticising my actions in enforcing discretionary sanctions again, you need to get a grip on the history of the behavioural problems. You are not the judge of what sanctions are warranted and your interference will simply result in encouraging RoY to make biomedical claims without sufficient sourcing again. If you want to see them topic banned from medical articles, you're going the right way about it. They have already crossed a line far enough to attract discretionary sanctions, and your encouragement of their behaviour is equally reprehensible. Until you butted in, I was reasonably hopeful that RoY would take the time to read and understand MEDRS. If you really want to improve COVID-19 vaccine, rather than pursuing personal vendettas by sniping from the peanut gallery, then you should be spending your time cleaning up the article. There's enough cleanup required. --:RexxS (talk) 00:53, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

RexxS, your remarks "rather than pursuing personal vendettas", "sniping from the peanut gallery" and criticism of what volunteer editors are not doing enough of in their precious spare time, are all personal attacks. Repeating them yet again doesn't help you. Admins must be open to criticism, particularly so when performing or threatening to perform admin activity. Responding to criticism by personally attacking the criticising editor is unacceptable behaviour on Wikipedia. In recent weeks, I have been far from alone from asking you be less aggressive towards good-faith editors.

Could you perhaps take "just because I can, doesn't mean I should" to heart wrt your admin buttons and ability to threaten editors. You posted a request at WT:MED for editors there to review the situation at Covid-19 vaccine. I did review it and I did review that editors history which is only a handful of pages long. I saw a good-faith editor trying to improve Wikipedia and who was stumbling with the most common medical-newbie mistakes. I also saw them make the most common and human mistake when responding to being reverted by some random guy on the internet. As an admin, you are supposed to scare away the bad guys, not the newbies. Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers and all that. -- Colin°^Talk 10:32, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Re: COVID Vaccine Article

Hello, due to your balanced and neutral approach I was able to clearly make sense of the different requirements for bio-medical articles. However, the other chap just came across as angry and hostile leading me to believe his revert was for emotional reasons. Having read up on editing bio-medical articles I can now see his point, I just wish he’d come across less hostile, best regards.Roland Of Yew (talk) 09:01, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Roland Of Yew, thanks for editing Wikipedia. I appreciate your edit was in good-faith and used a source that for most of Wikipedia, including BLPs, would likely be regarded as reliable and accepted. WP:MEDRS can be confusing to begin with and take a while for some of the decisions that the community has agreed on to sink in. My own first edits on Wikipedia used sources I wouldn't use today. I know that being reverted stings, and when some random guy on the internet undoes your good work, it can seem like they are the vandal and the edit warrior. And that brings a big temptation to revert back rather than listen and pause. You chose the worse possible place on Wikipedia to do that, and as a result have earned a "final warning" on your talk page.

As much as I disagree with RexxS's approach, you need to take that warning seriously. I encourage you to remove the comment about "hypocritical editorial methodology" which could be taken as a personal attack. Removing it will also be taken as gesture of goodwill on your part. I had a look at some, but certainly not all, of the sources on that page that cited newspapers and such, and they mostly seemed to be sourcing text covering business facts or government actions, etc, and not requiring WP:MEDRS. If there are some text source in the article you think should fail due to WP:MEDRS then please post a neutral comment on the article talk page, and they can be reviewed. You mentioned that you may have some "new reports" and "secondary sources" in the next few days. Can I encourage you, should you still want to edit Covid articles at all, to post your proposed edits on the talk page, and to listen to the feedback. If you are in doubt, post a query at WT:MED. With that final warning hanging over your neck, you need to take careful steps. -- Colin°^Talk 10:15, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

(talk page stalker): Roland Of Yew, I'm sorry if my OTHERSTUFFEXISTS post also left you confused; one of the great problems of Wikipedia is that you can find junk in any article that no one has cleaned up, and then new-ish editors wonder why they are being taken to task. We can only deal with what we see when we see it, and I for one am hesitant to dig in to articles that have discretionary sanctions in place to do old cleanup, particularly when those articles are In The News (featured on the mainpage), and being hit with all kinds of WP:NOTNEWS edits. I agree with Colin that, with respect to laypress sources and COVID articles, it is important to take the discretionary sanctions very seriously, and be sure you understand when it is OK to use laypress, and when we should not. The COVID articles are rife with sources that are not compliant, and content that reflects WP:RECENTISM and breaches WP:NOTNEWS. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:30, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks guys, I really appreciate your advice and want to say that you truly do reflect the very best of Wikipedia.Roland Of Yew (talk) 16:42, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for edits re drug pricing

Would be great if you found the "culprit" and asked them to please cite properly. There are hundreds of such paragraphs on WP. I'm busy today. Thanks.--Quisqualis (talk) 18:29, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Quisqualis there is an add-on for Chrome and Firefox called Who Wrote That?. It lets you see who wrote the content on the page and when it was added. It isn't perfect by a long way, and can get confused if page content is moved around. -- Colin°^Talk 18:56, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the link--Quisqualis (talk) 19:49, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for recommending Whowrotethat

I just ran it on the material you recently removed from Nabumetone. Wonder of wonders, it was User:Doc James who added that sentence. It would be nice if there were something like a Wikidata for drug prices that would, at least, tell users how various drugs' prices compare (as in low-mid-high-priced). In fact, it would be more than "nice"; it would be kind of vital.--Quisqualis (talk) 16:49, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Quisqualis, drug prices have been discussed extensively by the medical project and it is really too complicated to simplify into low/mid/high prices, and our requirement to avoid original research gets in the way. Add to that the problem that volunteers just haven't kept the prices up to date for about six years. I think this is an area where commercial publishers already do a good job. If you are in the UK and interested to know how much a drug costs the NHS, then the BNF website gives you all the data you might need. In the US then GoodRX seems to be the best site for retail price figures. -- Colin°^Talk 17:02, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Good points. It clearly isn't in Wikipedia's ambit to create such a tool. Thanks.--Quisqualis (talk) 05:27, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

WikiProject Medicine Newsletter - January 2021

Issue 8—January 2021

WikiProject Medicine Newsletter

2020 is behind us at last. Off Wikipedia, the year has been trying. On Wikipedia, I hope you've found the time you spent here fulfilling and diverting. I've taken the opportunity to place a few end-of-year statistics for reflection below. If you think of any data that would be useful to find (or begin gathering) to gauge the project's success, please let me know. With that, here is what's happening around the project:

Newly recognized content

Buruli ulcer nom. Ajpolino, my first successful FAC Anatomical terms of location nom. Tom (LT), reviewed by ArnabSaha and Aircorn Fish allergy nom. David notMD, reviewed by Bibeyjj Blood culture nom. Spicy, reviewed by Graham Beards Epidural administration nom. Berchanhimez, reviewed by Bibeyjj Charles Bingham Penrose nom. Larry Hockett, reviewed by Esculenta

Nominated for review

Louise Boursier nom. Doug Coldwell Late onset congenital adrenal hyperplasia nom. Maxim Masiutin Friedreich's ataxia nom. Akrasia25 Kivu Ebola epidemic nom. Ozzie10aaaa UPMC Presbyterian nom. Andrew nyr Crown (anatomy) nom. Bibeyjj, under review by MeegsC Alzheimer's disease Notice of impending featured article review at talk. Management of multiple sclerosis Notice of impending FAR at talk. Major depressive disorder Notice of impending FAR at talk.

Year in Review
With 2020 now in the rear view mirror, a few numbers to give a sense of where our project is at: In 2020 we added a record number of medicine articles (i.e. articles with the WP:MED tag on their talk pages), starting the year with 41,243 and ending with 45,247. The ~4,000 new articles is well above the norm, presumably due to new covid-related articles. In terms of reviewed content, we added three featured articles (Dementia with Lewy bodies, Complete blood count, and Buruli ulcer), and lost three to the ravages of time, leaving our total at 66. We also added 42 newly reviewed good articles from 23 different nominators, bringing our total to 296. See a full list of reviewed content from 2020 here. Outside of reviewed content our contributions are more challenging to measure. I'm sure much our time was spent making small improvements, guiding new editors, removing junk from articles, and dealing with the raging global pandemic (on and off the site). I am interested in ways we can quantify and assess our project's progress going forward, so if anyone has ideas for other data we could find or collect, do let me know.

Other notes

• The WMF's Community Wishlist Survey has ended. Results are posted here.
• If you missed it, consider reading folks' thoughts on helping new editors at this recent WT:MED discussion.
• After a quieter month at the Collaboration of the Month (Dexamethasone), we'll be taking this month off. The COTM will return in February. Propose and vote on nominations here.
• Thanks to all who helped deal with last month's backlog, medicine articles that cite no sources. 28 down, 382 to go. We'll pick a new backlog next month. In the meantime, for any interested, I've posted an updated list of articles that lack sources here.

Discuss this issue

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MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 06:49, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Griddle scone

Clockwise from bottom: hot buttered tattie scones next to a cheese scone, shiny and flat treacle scones, and a milk scone above a fruit scone

Do you ever make Griddle scones, or know anyone who does? We don't seem to have any pictures. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:05, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

WhatamIdoing, there are griddle scones on this plate (though I don't know whether that term would be used). Certainly the two triangular potato scones at the bottom would be made in a pan or on the hob. SarahSV ^(talk) 05:18, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

SarahSV, I've added the description from the thumb in the scone article, which I think is correct. A "tattie scone" is a potato scone. My mum has a girdle (griddle) that looks like this: heavy cast iron with a handle that rotates for storage. I always assumed they only worked well on a gas hob, but the photo there has an electric one. The heavy base distributes the heat, and the lack of any rim or lip round the edge makes it easier to get something under the scones to flip them. You can cook scones, bannocks, Scotch pancakes (also called dropped scones), and oatcakes. I guess the "griddle scone" is just term for a scone type of food cooked on top of a griddle rather than in an oven, so it is flatter than some other scones. In the photo, I'm not sure about the cheese scone, but the others would all have been cooked on a girdle. Unfortunately, I'm not likely to be visiting my mum any time soon, as she's 400 miles away and we are in lockdown.

Now I'm looking at that hot potato scone, covered in melted butter, and getting hungry. I wonder if I could make them with the Smash I bought to make your Slovenian potica recipe. I just have to figure out the proportion of potato flakes to flour. I don't have a gridle, though, only a frying pan. -- Colin°^Talk 11:47, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

It looks like there are a few recipes that use the flakes directly, such as https://www.imperialteagarden.com/pages/potato-scones and http://www.lauraleacooks.com/2011/03/potato-scones.html, but others use the already-rehydrated form.

Sarah, thanks for finding that photo. Would you like to put it in the article? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:31, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

My potato scones with vegetable bake, made with Smash!

I was hungry and couldn't wait for the sun to move round to your bit of the planet. So I improvised with the very simple recipe here. It is really just mashed potatoes, flour and butter. In the end, I think I should have made the mash a bit drier as I ended up adding more flour and more potato flakes to thicken it. Even then, I needed plenty flour on my hands and board to stop it being sticky. But they turned out fine. My idea of a potato scone is something quite flat like this, but my wife thinks of something thicker, for which I think you'd need to add bicarb. The recipes you linked look just weird and wrong :-) But I'm sure they are tasty too. This is the problem: what people call a "scone" or "pancake" is so variable. We can even agree how to pronounce "scone", never mind bake it. Which makes it harder for Wikipedia 'cause we want to have hard facts and not randomness. -- Colin°^Talk 22:36, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Colin, your potato scones look great, but they need a bit of butter or similar. It's supposed to drip down your chin as you eat them. Or you can fry them to eat with a full breakfast. WhatamIdoing, I'll let you add it if you want. I was surprised not to find lots of potato scone photos. There are lots on Flickr but not free. SarahSV ^(talk) 05:27, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

I was trying to be healthy yesterday. We had some leftover so today I reheated them with lots of melted butter along with a fried egg. Not such a healthy lunch today. To be honest, they reheat so well that there isn't an advantage to eating them freshly-made, unlike some other baked food. So if you can get them in your shops it is probably not worth making them yourself, unless you have lots of mashed potato to use up. A full cooked breakfast is usually something I only experience if staying at a B&B, where breakfast-quality is an important part of the selection process, and the aim is to get so stuffed you don't need lunch. -- Colin°^Talk 14:56, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

I've added both pictures to Griddle scone and dug up a passable source for the name. Thank you both for making this improvement possible. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:22, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Re: Deployment of COVID-19 vaccines

Hello, perhaps you will remember me...We met a few months ago, per some "MEDMOS issues". Perhaps you can help me. While reading Deployment of COVID-19 vaccines, under the Cold chain section, first paragraph, [1] I found the following:

"The Moderna vaccine vials require storage above −40 °C (−40 °F) and between −25 and −15 °C (−13 and 5 °F).[88] Once refrigerated, the Moderna vaccine can be kept between 2 and 8 °C (36 and 46 °F) for up to 30 days.[88]"

However, the reference is from 28 May 2014, and does not mention the Moderna COVID-19 vaccine, although it does discuss the cold chain for vaccines in general. Is this a problem? I am accustomed to reading refs that specifically support the article text, but I do not have the education/ability to evaluate this situation. I could be wrong...Thanks for your time. Good to see you editing once again! Best, Tribe of Tiger ^{Let's Purrfect!} 23:02, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. Good spot. I had a look at the history. It seems a mistake was made when cut-n-paste text from one article to start this new article. I've left a post on the article talk page. I think it will probably be easier for the editors there to investigate their own mistake(s) than for me, especially as all these covid articles are huge. -- Colin°^Talk 11:58, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for your good summary on the talkpage and for mentioning me, very kind of you. (I didn't think the Moderna vaccine had managed to time-travel back to 2014, heh, heh. But it was seriously worrying that this important info was un-referenced.) I had already discovered the cut and paste, by searching through Wikiblame. My understanding is that cut and paste is discouraged, because we lose the original/previous page history.

I don't have medical knowledge, but I could compare the pre move text/references (from the historical version of the parent article) with the present references, to see if there are additional errors. That's basic gnoming work. Should I offer my services, on the talkpage? Or can someone with knowledge of moves/merges or whatever "fix" the entire issue, without a tedious point by point comparison? Thanks again, for verifying my discovery. You have done "your part" admirably, by confirming and warning. Others can correct their own mistakes. Best wishes, Tribe of Tiger ^{Let's Purrfect!} 23:10, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Tribe of Tiger you don't need to get permission on the talk page to fix up mistakes. I thought I'd leave it to the original editor to fix because the article text is ok and only the ref got screwed up so no rush. And perhaps they will realise they made other mistakes. But if you want to fix it then I'm sure everyone would be happy. I'm not sure there is any way other than cut-n-paste to split an article. There are guidelines somewhere, about how to attribute properly in the edit summary, but there isn't any way to split the history of an article so that now two articles share a common history, say. -- Colin°^Talk 14:07, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Colin, I lacked "the courage of my convictions", so your support was much appreciated. Normally, I would not hesitate to fix reference mistakes, but this is a COVID-19 "medical" article. A reply by the original editor has been posted on the talkpage, and they have made changes in response to your post concerning my discovery. Thanks for explaining "splits ". I can move forward from here! Best wishes to you, Tribe of Tiger ^{Let's Purrfect!} 02:50, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Okay, after a bit of back and forth mistakes, and collegial talkpage conversation (between two other editors), the situation has been rectified. Thanks again for your support. Tribe of Tiger ^{Let's Purrfect!} 02:34, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

DLB

You forgot one, [2] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:28, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

You are too generous, Sandy. I don't think my contributions there rose above "helping" and "reviewing". -- Colin°^Talk 15:05, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes, they did; you should add it. Your thoroughness brought it over the hump, and you were a co-nom. Don’t make me edit your user page ... there are plenty of admins itching for an excuse to block me. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:19, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Since when do they need an excuse? Kablammo (talk) 18:04, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Since, never. Considering the latest on my talk, not funny :( SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:10, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Oh dear. I am reminded of MastCell's advice: If you wrestle with a pig, both of you will get muddy. And the pig will enjoy it. Since none of that seems to be in the slightest concerned with writing an encyclopaedia, I suggest archiving and unwatching whatever other pages irritate you. -- Colin°^Talk 18:29, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

yes, well, instead of that ... heading out to emergency room now for a serious problem. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:49, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

SandyGeorgia, just left a post for Colin, and saw this note. Very concerned! Kindest wishes, Tribe of Tiger ^{Let's Purrfect!} 00:21, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

WikiProject Medicine Newsletter - February 2021

Issue 9—February 2021

WikiProject Medicine Newsletter

Happy February everyone. I hope the new year is starting to look better than the last one did. As always, if you have any ideas to improve the newsletter, please post them at the talkpage. Otherwise, here is what's happening around the project:

Newly recognized content

Late onset congenital adrenal hyperplasia nom. Maxim Masiutin, reviewed by Vaticidalprophet UPMC Presbyterian nom. Andrew nyr, reviewed by HickoryOughtShirt?4

Nominated for review

Louise Boursier nom. Doug Coldwell Friedreich's ataxia nom. Akrasia25 Kivu Ebola epidemic nom. Ozzie10aaaa Biotin nom. David notMD, under review by HaEr48 Lurie Children's Hospital nom. Andrew nyr, under review by HickoryOughtShirt?4 Urinothorax nom. Steve M. Imprinted brain hypothesis nom. Vaticidalprophet Management of multiple sclerosis Currently a FA removal candidate. Alzheimer's disease Notice of impending featured article review at talk. Major depressive disorder Notice of impending FAR at talk. Influenza Notice of impending FAR at talk. Menstrual cycle Notice of impending FAR at talk.

News from around the site

• Another discussion has closed, with consensus supporting continued use of the phrase "committed suicide" in articles.
• The Medicine Collaboration of the Month for February is Cirrhosis. Head to Talk:Cirrhosis to coordinate our efforts. You can nominate future collaborations at WP:MCOTM.
• This month's target maintenance backlog is "articles that need more wikilinks". Just 65 medicine pages have {{Underlinked}} on them, so hopefully we can clean them all up this month.
• Flyer22 Frozen, longtime and prolific editor on medicine and television/film topics, has died. You can read a brief reflection on her Wikipedia work here, and leave condolences at her talk page.

Discussions of interest

• Continued discussion on the role of subject-specific notability guidelines at Wikipedia talk:Notability.
• An ongoing effort to trim talk page banners has brought us a discussion regarding whether {{English variant notice}}s should be converted to editnotices.
• An ongoing discussion at WT:MED considers spinning out parts of the infobox for medicines/drugs into other templates.

Discuss this issue

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MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 05:02, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Advice sought

@Colin:, you were very helpful when I had issues editing the COVID-19 vaccine [[3]] using my Roland Of Yew (talk · contribs) username and wondered if you might have any advice regarding resetting Wikipedia passwords? Somehow, my saved passwords list lost my Wikipedia password and I’ve tried and tried to reset my password; however, the reset links aren’t arriving via email even though I’ve checked the trash/junk bin and requested admin help. Best regards, :Inadvertent Consequences Inadvertent Consequences]] (talk) 12:57, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Inadvertent Consequences Sorry to hear this. I don't know any more than you about how to fix this, beyond looking at the help pages which I see you have already done. I see your old account page doesn't have "email this user", which your new one does, so perhaps you didn't setup an email. If you did, have you checked your junk or spam folder to see if your email software has put it there. If you can't fix it, then I guess you have to start over with the new account. I think it may be best to ask a friendly admin to block your old account to avoid anyone trying to hack it. If you did ever discover the password, then they would unblock it. Admins probably know more about this sort of thing than me. Hope you are well and keeping safe. -- Colin°^Talk 16:41, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

@Colin: ah! I didn’t realise that I hadn’t an email associated with my old account and from everything I’ve read it looks like I’ll have to let that user page go, thanks once again! Inadvertent Consequences (talk) 16:46, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Manual of Style DS Alert

This is a standard message to notify contributors about an administrative ruling in effect. It does not imply that there are any issues with your contributions to date.

You have shown interest in the English Wikipedia Manual of Style and article titles policy. Due to past disruption in this topic area, a more stringent set of rules called discretionary sanctions is in effect. Any administrator may impose sanctions on editors who do not strictly follow Wikipedia's policies, or the page-specific restrictions, when making edits related to the topic.

For additional information, please see the guidance on discretionary sanctions and the Arbitration Committee's decision here. If you have any questions, or any doubts regarding what edits are appropriate, you are welcome to discuss them with me or any other editor.

Crossroads ^-talk- 17:35, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Talk:KD

see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Theuyhjasji. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:47, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

WikiProject Medicine Newsletter - March 2021

Issue 10—March 2021

WikiProject Medicine Newsletter

Here is what's happening around the project:

Newly recognized content

17q12 microdeletion syndrome nom. Vaticidalprophet, reviewed by Bibeyjj Urinothorax nom. Steve M., reviewed by Bibeyjj Lurie Children's Hospital nom. Andrew nyr, reviewed by HickoryOughtShirt?4 Biotin nom. David notMD, reviewed by HaEr48 Imprinted brain hypothesis nom. Vaticidalprophet, reviewed by Lee Vilenski

Nominated for review

Friedreich's ataxia nom. Akrasia25 Kivu Ebola epidemic nom. Ozzie10aaaa, under review by Casliber Diaphragmatic rupture nom. Steve M. Mihran Kassabian nom. Larry Hockett Sophie Jamal nom. Vaticidalprophet Menstrual cycle Undergoing FAR, contribute at talk. Alzheimer's disease Notice of impending FAR at talk. Major depressive disorder Notice of impending FAR at talk. Acute myeloid leukemia Notice of impending FAR at talk. Influenza Notice of impending FAR at talk. Autism Notice of impending FAR at talk.

News from around the site

• There is an ongoing drive to review good article nominations through the month of March. Pick up a review if you have time. Instructions here.
• The Medicine Collaboration of the Month is on temporary (perhaps) hiatus. You can still nominate future candidates at WP:MCOTM.
• This month's target maintenance backlog is "articles with a dead link". Each typically takes around a minute to fix, so please hit one or two when you have a moment.
• The desktop site's default "Vector" skin is being gradually modernized. Details here. Opt-in at Preferences>Skin preferences to begin getting used to the new look.

Discussions of interest

• A large discussion is reconsidering deprecating the aliases for some citation template parameters.
• Please look over edit-protected medicine pages to consider whether some could have protection levels safely lowered.

Discuss this issue

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Ajpolino (talk) 18:55, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

Readability scores

I'm contemplating MEDMOS and WP:MTAA, and I think that it might be helpful to have a separate essay on Readability tests. IMO the ideal content contains both why you shouldn't rely on them and also some advice about how to get some value out of them (e.g., checking that the sections or paragraphs you deliberately wrote at a simpler level don't score at a higher level). Do you think that you could write such a page? WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:00, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

I admit I have at times in the past year contemplated writing an essay. There is a history of using such tests on Wikipedia to "demonstrate" that the reading level of articles (or leads) has been "successfully" reduced. And we sometimes see simplistic advice ("use shorter sentences", "never use jargon", "use simpler words"). I read the short linked article but actually Readability has more on the tests, and is a rambling mess in itself! The final section says "experts warn: can be highly misleading" and has a bunch of citations to 60-year-old books (entire books, no chapters, or pages). How odd that for Wikipedia, "readability" is not about how readable some piece of writing is, but about algorithms to measure it and give it a number. Surely readability should should also include whether one gets pleasure or satisfaction rather than irritation or boredom, or successfully comprehends the topic or subject. I can't see how any algorithm (simplistic or AI) could do that.

Wrt the "get some value out of them", it would be odd for me to suggest such a thing as I've never once thought "I'll run a readability test on my revised prose to see if it really is easier to read", and never then gone "Oh, dear, it has scored higher" or even then "I must try again because the score says so". Have you? What readability scoring tool (website, computer software) do you use? Can you convert me?

We do seem, as humans, obsessed with reducing complex things down to numbers or even binary, and valuing algorithms over people. Wikipedia is a collaborative editing project. So wouldn't the best advice, for someone who has written or rewritten some prose, be to simply ask someone else to look at it? A fresh pair of eyes.

I wonder though if we are making a correlation/causation mistake. Yes, some editors have been focused on readability scores, even published papers about them, and added over-simplistic advice to our guidelines. But it wouldn't have been a significant problem if they were gifted writers, or who actively collaborated with others on their prose. If brilliant prose flowed out of their keyboards, or was the fruit of a wonderful collaboration, none of us would have minded a quaint obsession with algorithms from an age when doctors smoked. Maybe this is fighting yesterday's battle? -- Colin°^Talk 16:28, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Yes on "yesterday's battle". This set a lot of good work completely back, and that sort of editing originated from the same place as "yesterday". I don't think this is a MEDMOS issue, although it seemed to become one because of the group of proponents. (Colin, I pinged you about a Keto edit to Alzheimer's disease.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:36, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

The link you give is recent. I agree the edit was not "brilliant prose". But what's the cause? Aiming to improve readability scoring? Bad advice? Lack of talent or ability? Lack of experience? -- Colin°^Talk 16:47, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Look at how this page was built, with advocacy goals from the beginning. View the "Objectives" (advocacy) which have remained constant since the Project's founding. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:11, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Oh, save me from advocacy editing! And leads that nobody other than a translator would want to read. And readability score targets. *sigh*. The talk page history suggests the project is effectively dead, and the project advice is just one person's whacky ideas. -- Colin°^Talk 17:34, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

They mean well, and Femke certainly meant well when she invited that WikiProject to the FAR of menstrual cycle, but it really set back progress, partly also because that WP has pretty much zero experience in how non-advocacy articles are actually written. Hence, menstruation now an article more about advocacy than the actual topic ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:36, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

I have re-written text based on what the algorithms say, but (a) either never or only rarely in Wikipedia articles, and (b) the goal is to help adults who depend on machine translation or otherwise can't read English easily. I don't think that changes based on these algorithms make the text more readable, but I do think they make it less mis-understandable.

I can give you an example. I turned this:

• In the beginning of this year, we worked with the Wikimedia research team to understand how talk page use impacts article whether editing talk pages changes how much editors edit articles.

into this:

• The Editing team and the Wikimedia research team studied how talk pages help editors improve articles.

Neither of these are brilliant prose, but one of them is much less likely to get mangled by machine translation.

I think that if we create an essay, it should aim for a middle-of-the-road POV. IMO the middle of the road is that the algorithms are a bit like taking blood pressure: if you know what you're doing, you can get some useful information that, in combination with other information, might be useful to you, but if you don't know what you're doing, you're probably going to screw up. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:34, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

I'm not convinced the blood pressure analogy is fair. While "treating the measurement" is a flaw doctors know about and suffer from, that's still a tool no doctor would do without. Did you make a typo in your example, because the long sentence makes no sense. Should "article whether" be "articles, and whether". The fixed sentence has repetition, is muddled and is vague. The revised sentence gets to the point, albeit one without any specifics on what you studied or when. You fixed it by writing concisely and eliminating anything not necessary to the message you want to get across. Whereas someone who is a slave to a robot score would fix it by chopping the sentence up. They might even have made things worse, writing:

• In the beginning of this year, we worked with the Wikimedia research team. We wanted to understand how talk page use impacts articles. We looked at whether editing talk pages changes how much editors edit articles.

I've just got myself the Oxford Guide to Plain English, Fifth Edition, by Martin Cutts. Just glancing at the contents page shows that of the 30 chapters, only one, chapter 19, is about pitching at the right reading level/age. The author spends more time discussing the drawbacks and limitations of readability tests than he does finding value in them. The author founded the Plain English Campaign and runs https://www.clearest.co.uk/. There is far, far more about writing clear, concise and engaging prose, than these robots appreciate. It doesn't matter much if a 13-year-old can read it, if it muddled, ambiguous, misleading, tedious or dull. -- Colin°^Talk 12:31, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

I didn't write the original draft (and I don't mind that it wasn't polished; it wasn't meant to be).

I think that if we write a page that says they're absolutely useless, then we won't reach the relevant audience. Some people will latch onto a single counterargument and believe that it disproves the entire concept. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:36, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

I think their limitations suggest they are more appropriate for non-technical writing that has no excuse for difficult or long words and little complexity to explain. Like your Wikimedia business document, or a biography of a musician. And more appropriate for someone writing alone who then has to submit their draft for approval/publication, vs someone who is part of the biggest collaborative writing project on the planet. I wonder if for technical matters they may give too many unhelpful results. And then editors hack the sentence length into PowerPoint bullets just to bring the score down, or naively replace or remove words they think might be giving a high score. Perhaps they should be concentrating on other things that make the text more readable and understandable? If there are, to crudely pick chapter numbers from the book I mentioned, 30 things that could improve the readability of your text, and the tool only examines two variables, then you're going to over-concentrate on those two variables.

What tool do you recommend? Can it highlight sentences or words that might be problematic, or does it just give a score for a whole page, and leave you to scratch your head about what it didn't like?

I'd like to know if any decent writers, other than yourself, find them of value for Wikipedia. You said above that you've only "never or only rarely" rewritten Wikipedia article text on what score it got. That's not a promising start. You speculate on the the consequences of saying "they're absolutely useless" but haven't really convinced me that it would be honest to write "they can be useful for editing Wikipedia articles". It seems like neither of us would be speaking from any personal experience on that front. -- Colin°^Talk 16:51, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

I usually use https://hemingwayapp.com/ because it highlights passive voice (good writing machine translation), compound and complex sentences (machine human translation), and overuse of adverbs (good writing). They added the reading score calculation more recently. I don't find that especially helpful myself, but I think that some people might benefit from the occasional moment of discovering how well their instinct aligns with an external measurement. If you're saying "easy" and it says "post-graduate level", then one of you is probably wrong. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:58, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

I'll have a play with it. I posted some NHS text to it and it thought "However, " and "maximum" were complex and should be replaced or omitted, which didn't seem good advice here. A worry is if a tool highlights all the adverbs or all the passive voice, isn't there a temptation to whack-a-mole them all out? But I can also see value in those highlights if one is careful. Most sensible writing advice does not view English like a computer language with absolute rules and unforgivable sins. I'm not quite sure that a comparison of "easy" and "post-grad" is helping your case, because that's such an extreme difference. Another reader or editor with any writing ability would be able to tell you that too. So perhaps this gives a "wake up call" to someone deluded that they are writing at the patient-information-leaflet level. But I suspect such a deluded writer would also be the same writer who thinks they can make their muddled, ambiguous and rambling prose into low-literacy-friendly clear English by simply chopping all the sentences in two, and in two again (because shorter is ALWAYS better), and replacing all the long words with "it".

Wrt your post at 15:36: what is your purpose and who are you trying to persuade? And ok, perhaps someone is wrong on the internet, but why is this an important battle to spend time on now? -- Colin°^Talk 23:51, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Menstrual cycle

Hi Colin, I would appreciate any advice you might have on this issue [4]. It's this "80%" claim (again). I have posted a paper there, which might help. Would it be for the best not to quote a percentage at all and just say "most"? Best regards. Graham Beards (talk) 09:38, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

About your comment at the PD talk

Hello. Thank you for providing comments on the proposed decision for the RexxS case. In reading your comments you mention about the suitability of other users to be administrators. While it's not a personal attack, I suggest that you alter your comment so that it doesn't mention specific editors. My reasoning is that the committee in the RexxS case is not examining the conduct of the editors you named, and as such detailing specific users isn't necessary when commenting on the proposed decision. Let me know if you have any questions, and in case you were not aware I am one of the case clerks for the RexxS case. Dreamy Jazz ^{talk to me | my contributions} 18:53, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Dreamy Jazz, I hope this edit is satisfactory. -- Colin°^Talk 19:07, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. It is. Happy editing, Dreamy Jazz ^{talk to me | my contributions} 21:08, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

WikiProject Medicine Newsletter - April 2021

Issue 11—April 2021

WikiProject Medicine Newsletter

Here is what's happening around the project:

Newly recognized content

Influenza removed from the featured article review list thanks largely to Velayinosu's work. Friedreich's ataxia nom. Akrasia25, reviewed by Ajpolino Kivu Ebola epidemic nom. Ozzie10aaaa, reviewed by Casliber

Nominated for review

Mihran Kassabian nom. Larry Hockett Sophie Jamal nom. Vaticidalprophet Northwestern Memorial Hospital nom. Andrew nyr XXYY syndrome nom. Vaticidalprophet CT scan nom. Iflaq Tetrasomy Xnom. Vaticidalprophet Menstrual cycle Undergoing FAR, contribute at talk. Upcoming FARs: Alzheimer's disease, Major depressive disorder, Acute myeloid leukemia, Autism. Contribute to discussions at their talk pages.

News from around the site

• As part of the Talk pages project, the reply and new discussion tools have been released as beta features. You can enable them at Special:Preferences.
• This month's maintenance backlog is articles marked as too technical. Please help clarify these pages for non-specialists.
• Longtime medicine editor, administrator, and tech-wiz RexxS has retired – hopefully temporarily – following an arbitration case. Among other things, RexxS has long advocated improving Wikipedia's accessibility for readers with disabilities. You can help in that regard by reminding yourself of the contents of Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Accessibility and learning to write alt text for images.

Discussions of interest

• Template:Authority control is getting a redesign. Contribute to the discussion here.
• A large discussion is reconsidering deprecating the aliases for some citation template parameters.
• Please look over edit-protected medicine pages to consider whether some could have protection levels safely lowered.

Discuss this issue

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Ajpolino (talk) 02:24, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for William Lyon Mackenzie

Thanks for your help with the William Lyon Mackenzie article in March, specifically for your comments at the second PR. I have nominated the article for featured article status and I hope you will comment on the nomination here. Thanks again for your help preparing this article. Z1720 (talk) 17:15, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Person-first language

Just a note. I found your comments on the person-first discussion quite helpful; they certainly changed how I viewed the topic. Sorry you were upset by the discussion; nobody there seems to have been their best. Maybe one day the topic can be revisited when there's more evidence and all of us have kinder hearts. Wishing you well. Urve (talk) 03:00, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Urve thanks very much for that comment. Yes, kinder hearts would be welcome. -- Colin°^Talk 09:35, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

DYK for Vaccine ingredients

On 23 April 2021, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Vaccine ingredients, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that an immunologic adjuvant is a vaccine ingredient that makes the immune response stronger and longer-lasting? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Vaccine ingredients. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Vaccine ingredients), and if they received a combined total of at least 416.7 views per hour (i.e., 5,000 views in 12 hours or 10,000 in 24), the hook may be added to the statistics page. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

 — Amakuru (talk) 00:02, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

You might want to

... follow up on <--this--> --Skews Peas (talk) 16:50, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Skews Peas, I'm not quite sure what you are suggesting? Is there a troublesome edit to investigate? Or are you suggesting I work on that article or that section (Immunopathology -- I know nothing). I'm so limited in my free time that I'd rather steer clear of contentious hot topics. -- Colin°^Talk 16:57, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Just sharing some meticulosity with you. I've probably opened a can of worms anyway – there are lots more such paragraphs in that article. Never mind. --Skews Peas (talk) 17:11, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

WP:NOTBATTLEGROUND

You seem bound and determined to win. The source is not WP:FRINGE, it is a legitimate by a scholar the you admit is "an expert in the field". By removing all weight for one expert who disagrees with a position you are engaging in a BATTLE rather than trying to improve the encyclopedia. Abductive (reasoning) 15:15, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

WikiProject Medicine Newsletter - June 2021

Issue 12—June 2021

WikiProject Medicine Newsletter

No newsletter last month means a double issue this month. Enjoy:

Newly recognized content

Menstrual cycle saved at FAR thanks to the efforts of Graham Beards and others. Tetrasomy X nom. Vaticidalprophet, reviewed by JackFromReedsburg XYYY syndrome nom. Vaticidalprophet, reviewed by MeegsC CT scan nom. Iflaq, reviewed by Bibeyjj Imprinted brain hypothesis nom. Vaticidalprophet, reviewed by Lee Vilenski Diaphragmatic rupture nom. Aeschylus, reviewed by Bibeyjj Pentasomy X nom. Vaticidalprophet, reviewed by Bibeyjj Shellfish allergy nom. David notMD, reviewed by CommanderWaterford Sophie Jamal nom. Vaticidalprophet, reviewed by Premeditated Chaos Mihran Kassabian nom. Larry Hockett, reviewed by Amitchell125 Northwestern Memorial Hospital nom. Andrew nyr, reviewed by Sammi Brie

Nominated for review

Trisomy X nom. Vaticidalprophet, under review by Epicgenius Hepatic hydrothorax nom. Aeschylus Tetrasomy X and Deep vein thrombosis are both listed for peer review to prepare for FAC. Please contribute. Upcoming FARs: Alzheimer's disease, Major depressive disorder, Acute myeloid leukemia, Autism. Contribute to discussions at their talk pages.

News from around the site

• The Medicine collaboration of the month is back with chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. Please head to its talk page to coordinate improvements.

Discussions of interest

• The redesign of the {{Authority control}} template continues. Contribute here.
• Please consider looking over edit-protected medicine pages to consider whether some could have protection levels safely lowered.

Discuss this issue

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Thanks, Ajpolino (talk) 17:59, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Plasma globe

An image created by you has been promoted to featured picture status Your image, File:Plasma globe 60th.jpg, was nominated on Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates, gained a consensus of support, and has been promoted. If you would like to nominate an image, please do so at Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates. Thank you for your contribution! Armbrust The Homunculus 11:17, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Dementia with Lewy bodies scheduled for TFA

This is to let you know that the Dementia with Lewy bodies article has been scheduled as today's featured article for July 21, 2021. Please check the article needs no amendments. If you're interested in editing the main page text, you're welcome to do so at Wikipedia:Today's featured article/July 21, 2021, but note that a coordinator will trim the lead to around 1000 characters anyway, so you aren't obliged to do so.

For Featured Articles promoted recently, there will be an existing blurb linked from the FAC talk page, which is likely to be transferred to the TFA page by a coordinator at some point.

We suggest that you watchlist Wikipedia:Main Page/Errors from the day before this appears on Main Page. Thanks! Jimfbleak - talk to me? 15:17, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

You're famous, lol.

Check it out! Looks like you got a mention and they quoted you saying something smart. jp×g 20:42, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Re: RFCs and the lab leak-iverse

@WhatamIdoing: and @Colin:, just wanted to clarify what you meant by "stop trying to write pandemic-related articles by RFC [5][6]". Do you mean "like the BMI RFC, with overall RFCs that try to have implications for all pandemic articles" or "RFCs period" AKA "using narrow RFCs to try and resolve individual disputes on pandemic pages" is also not productive?

Because, as far as I can determine, using RFCs is the only way to get anything to stick on particularly frustrating pages like Investigations into the origin of COVID-19 and COVID-19 misinformation. Otherwise it's like a revert-revert party and BRD breaks down. I admit I only have 6ish years of experience on this site, and I'm still learning how certain things work, but that was my assessment of the situation. There's lots of WP:FRINGE users and also quasi-SPAs, and activist editors, who push one POV or another. It's easy to get drawn into the brawl, and I have on several occasions.

I really see narrowly-worded narrowly-applied RFCs as the only way out of that cave. My understanding is that WhatamIdoing, you would say that RFCs can be useful in some contexts, but that Colin, you think RFCs are the problem here and are actively against consensus-building in these situations. Is that a fair characterization?

If so, Colin, I empathize with your point greatly. I also wish it were easier. I wish that such consensus-building without RFCs were possible in these articles, but this reminds me quite a bit of WP:RANDY. You cannot play chess with someone who will just flip the board when they lose, and likewise, you cannot build consensus with people who are WP:NOTHERE. It is the nature of battlegrounding to get drawn in yourself. That's why it's so insidious.--Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 00:02, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

And please, take me quite seriously when I say:I am looking for any and all advice on how to deal with these contentious articles better. I really am all ears, and am interested in all perspectives. I would bet good money you have seen similarly contentious topics emerge before my time, and I would appreciate the wiki-expertise.--Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 00:32, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

RFCs have been handled in a weird way (and maybe even in a WEIRD way) for COVID-related articles. I'm not sure how to label the effect, but it doesn't result in a small group of editors improving an article. It's more like a large group of less-experienced editors trying to vote a decision (any decision) into being so that we can enshrine that decision's exact wording as The Decision™, and then rush on to the next thing.

The voting in COVID-related articles has been so extreme that we were seriously talking at WT:RFC about enacting limits on how many RFCs any single editor could have open at the same time.

Paul Siebert recently expressed an important perspective on this question, and if you're serious about addressing this problem, you probably want to talk to him about the problems that RFCs can create, especially when most of the people in the discussion don't know as much about the subject as they think they do. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:00, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

I suppose RfCs have long been seen as a tool to wield when trying to control a topic. I'm with XOR'easter, who has written that the fuss around COVID topics is "the first time that I've genuinely feared that our line won't hold".[7] The RfC proliferation has now reached the point where we're breaking WP:DEM. Alexbrn (talk) 07:32, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

There are several issues, of which I'm sure WhatamIdoing and the folks at WT:RFC can offer advice. The first is whether a publicly declared RFC is needed rather than a simple discussion on talk, or even it seems just making an edit and seeing if it sticks. The second is whether that RFC needs to be widely advertised. You may think that getting more eyeballs on the thing will help, but often those eyeballs don't actually read the preceding discussions (you had those, right?) and just jump in with an opinion. Everyone loves being asked their opinion and giving it. Wrt covid articles, that opinion is often mostly about scientists or journalists or the Chinese government, and not about article text and what reliable sources say. And nearly all folk there are pushing an agenda of some sort. And thirdly, the RFC almost always begins with a poll rather than a discussion. And we know Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion.

This was particularly clear during the biomedical poll where a meme developed that "MEDRS is only about medical advice. It's that simple" and voters latched on to that as a very convenient way of justifying an oppose vote. I've seen it before on a poll about GDFL licence being inappropriate for photographs, where someone voted "A free licence is a free licence". This got endlessly repeated despite being rather mindless. Former British PM Theresa May used the same trick when she tired of Brexit voting, and repeated "Brexit is Brexit" to try to shut down discussion and complaints that the nuances might be causing problems.

The poll started on MEDRS offers voters just two choices. I see that in the discussion someone has suggested perhaps we tweak the original text. While I still think that currently we are just better off without those sentences, it is this kind of "Ok, there are other options too" thing that will likely just get lost and buried under the votes. On a Wikipedia page, you can make edits, I can make edits and all these other people can make edits, and together we might develop some good text. Instead we have an RFC that consumes dozens of editors time and yet only offers two limited choices. Take it or leave it. Oppose or Support. Option 1 or Option 2. One side will lose. That isn't any way for people to figure out an approach that actually keeps everyone happy.

I think it is ironic that editors who are clearly and demonstrably unable to edit collaboratively and work towards consensus are now pushing Wikipedia-wide guidelines around and trying (succeeding perhaps) to restrict them in order to win an argument. And to win an argument about something nobody actually knows the answer to. It's like the entire world decided to argue about who won the 2022 Eurovision Song Contest. It is both pathetic and rather worrisome, because I am worried that editors with covid blinkers on will end up claiming some new consensus that makes it harder to write good biomedical articles.

It is partly for that reason that I tried to find some intermediate ground wrt the latest covid sequence deletion story. Because I think if editors in both sides continue to fight their political fights by citing WP:UPPERCASE at each other, then they will end up wrecking those policies and guidelines in order to get their way.

Anyway, last night I posted a wikibreak notice and I'm still hoping to keep to it. So I wonder if perhaps someone could copy, shift or continue this discussion onto another person's talk page, so I don't keep getting pings.

I'll leave you, for now, with some reading suggestions. I recently read "Conflicted: Why Arguments Are Tearing Us Apart and How They Can Bring Us Together" by Ian Leslie and thought it was really good and encourage editors in disputes to go get it and read it. And I've just finished "Think Again: The Power of Knowing What You Don't Know" by Adam Grant, which was also good, covering some similar ground, but I preferred the first book. I did like Grant's image of trying to dance with one's foe rather than fight them. Having read them, I don't want anyone to expect me to become some kind of expert mediator diplomat guru: I read them because I'm crap at this and want to be a bit better. -- Colin°^Talk 09:22, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Colin and others, Thank you, the advice is much appreciated and will do re: taking this to another venue.--Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 12:41, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Break

I'm taking a wikibreak. Please avoid posting here unless it is vital. Try WT:MED instead. -- Colin°^Talk 09:22, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

WikiProject Medicine Newsletter - July 2021

Issue 12—June 2021

WikiProject Medicine Newsletter

Newly recognized content

Trisomy X nom. Vaticidalprophet, reviewed by Epicgenius

Nominated for review

Trisomy X nom. Vaticidalprophet CYP4F2 nom. Maxim Masiutin Hepatic hydrothorax nom. Aeschylus Vitamin B6 nom. David notMD Transmission of COVID-19 nom. Almaty Deep vein thrombosis is listed for peer review to prepare for FAC. Please contribute. Alzheimer's disease is at featured article review.

News from around the site

• Lung cancer will feature on the Main Page as Today's Featured Article on August 4th. Anything you can do to improve/update the article before then would be a big help to the many readers likely to see the page on that date.
• The Books namespace will be deprecated and its contents deleted. All books have been moved to subpages of Wikipedia:Books/archive so that they can be undeleted upon request after the namespace is gone. There are around two dozen medicine-related books (14 tagged with WP:MED). If you wish to keep any, you are welcome to move it to your userspace.

Discussions of interest

• An ongoing discussion at WP:MEDRS considers the first few sentences of the MEDRS lead.

Discuss this issue

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Thanks, Ajpolino (talk) 19:21, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Thank you

Thank you for this well-considered statement at WP:AE. Your point about the BBC at one time "thinking 'balance' on topics like global warming or MMR meant that for every expert you interviewed, you had to have some weirdo too" made me laugh. Bishonen | tålk 10:50, 25 July 2021 (UTC).

Bishonen thanks. I don't know where you live, but this isn't just my personal opinion. It was a big cause of frustration to many for years. Their report is Review of impartiality and accuracy of the BBC's coverage of science. One part reads "should be more proactive in searching out information than at present and other areas should more fully reflect the scientific literature. I recommend that the BBC takes a less rigid view of “due impartiality” as it applies to science (in practice and not just in its guidelines) and takes into account the non‐contentious nature of some material and the need to avoid giving undue attention to marginal opinion." There really was a belief by some then that "impartiality" meant they had to consider both sides as equal valid and reasonable as though one was trying to be neutral wrt Labour vs Conservative politics. This report required they also consider "due weight", which is more like our policy. -- Colin°^Talk 11:22, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Though the BBC still regularly fails in this.[8] Alexbrn (talk) 11:44, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Alexbrn, wow, that is very troubling, indeed. Colin, I also wanted to say, your comments on that AE were insightful, and are much appreciated, as is your level headed voice in many of those disputes! :)

But I did also want to say, this is not the first time I've seen news organizations fail at this, and not just the BBC! "The view from nowhere" is an old foundational principle of news reporting, that comes from a simpler time (Pepperidge Farm remembers). I think it belongs in the trash bin of history. One of my favorite NPR programs, On The Media (from WNYC), has reported on this a lot. A few of the best segments if you haven't heard them:

• "Objectivity: What Is It Good For?" (3 February 2017)
• "The view from nowhere is a harmful myth" (2 April 2021)
• "How bad faith mobs weaponize objectivity" (4 June 2021)

This reminds me of how some scientists try so hard to be "dispassionate" and "objective", instead of acknowledging their biases

As an aside, this reminds me of how some scientists remove themselves from public discourse, to remain "dispassionate" & "objective," which is of course a farce, and only leads to more problems. We would be better off if more experts spent time weighing in, and less time in ivory tower labs, away from the riff raff. We should all (scholars, journalists, lay people) acknowledge our biases and operate with them in mind, instead of pretending they don't exist! That allows us to actually make real progress on areas where society as a whole is biased and out of touch. Writing scholarly papers is not enough, especially when nobody reads them! If scholars don't participate and only publish dispassionate non-societally-relevant articles, then that in and of itself, screws up how WP:DUE and WP:RSUW work. We need experts to write reviews and tell Wikipedia the scholarly view on these things. Peer review and editorial oversight will keep extremism in check. Similarly, all Wikipedians are biased, but it is our PAGs and RSes that keep us on our best behavior. Not the battling out of "equal parts" of POV editors, as some have suggested. I actually think extremist viewpoints make us all more extreme, in a similar fashion to the shifting of the Overton window! There was an excellent essay published in Nature last year about how scientists are bad at this [9], that really fired me up about these issues, and led me to write these now-infamous Reddit posts [10] [11]. I still think it's important for experts to weigh in on public issues, and Wikipedia is probably one of the best ways to do that, hence why I'm here :). Of course this idea of scholarly participation in the public discourse also wasn't new to me, it was basically the sole subject of a graduation speech I gave at my PhD commencement in 2019, lol [12]. Time is a flat circle, and we keep comin' round the bend!

Sorry, I know that was a lil bit of soapboxing... Maybe I'll write a userspace essay about this instead of a screed plastered on Colin's talk page :)-- Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 13:32, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

My comment is a bit late, but WP's "encyclopedic" style was often contrasted to "journalistic" style, the latter more prone to be a list of equal opinions/refutations/denials, with the former more a summary of what is due, while avoiding to rehash debates everytime it makes the news, except for major developments. IRT Shibbolethink's comment, some scientists also feel that it's part of their responsibily to participate to public education and some are of course also teaching at universities, while others will be happy with more technical or lab work and less public exposure. I personally think that this is fine. Then coming from those who write for the public and appear regularly in shows, is good, as well as misleading pop-science, unfortunately. Another issue is that if they accept invitations to "public debates" it may provide a public impression of legitimacy to people who want to make a show and pretend that there's an actual scientific debate on the aspects they would like to dismiss and that even prominent scientists are listening to them (anti-evolution apologists for instance)... —PaleoNeonate – 01:57, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

@Shibbolethink: The above reply is so late that I'll ping... and I forgot to mention that I liked the speech. —PaleoNeonate – 06:10, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

WikiProject Medicine Newsletter - August 2021

Issue 12—August 2021

WikiProject Medicine Newsletter

Newly recognized content

Nothing this month Please help review articles when you have time.

Nominated for review

Trisomy X nom. Vaticidalprophet Hepatic hydrothorax nom. Aeschylus Vitamin B6 nom. David notMD Transmission of COVID-19 nom. Almaty, under review by Aircorn Atul Gawande nom. BennyOnTheLoose C. Edmund Kells nom. Larry Hockett Clarence Lushbaugh nom. Tpdwkouaa, under review by Larry Hockett Slipping rib syndrome nom. TheRibinator Charles Lester Leonard nom. Larry Hockett, under review by Dracophyllum Subglottic stenosis nom. aeschylus Deep vein thrombosis is listed for peer review to prepare for FAC. Please contribute. Alzheimer's disease is a featured article removal candidate.

News from around the site

• We have a bit of a backlog of good article nominations. Please help improve these articles by reviewing one if you have time. Instructions here.
• WP:URFA/2020 is reviewing and updating FAs that were promoted long ago. Several medicine-related FAs are on the list. Noting current work below. Feel free to jump in and help wherever you're interested:
  • Acute myeloid leukemia (promoted in 2006) is getting a thorough update led by Tom (LT) and Spicy. Help is welcome.
  • Influenza (promoted in 2006) was updated by Velayinosu and is awaiting review.
  • Lung cancer (promoted in 2007) was updated by Axl, Graham Beards, and JenOttawa in preparation for a now-aborted run as WP:TFA.
  • Autism (2007 promotion) and Major depressive disorder (2008 promotion) have requests for featured article reviews on their talk pages.
  • I believe the oldest unreviewed medicine-related FAs are Michael Woodruff (2006 promotion), Bacteria (2006 promotion), and Coeliac disease (2008 promotion). These are likely to receive some attention soon.

Discussions of interest

Discuss this issue

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Thanks, Ajpolino (talk) 02:29, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

The name game

My intent wasn't to insult any British editor, but merely to point out that every time such a RFC or general discussion on such topics concerning the UK, are held. The result is always going to be the same. Just too many who oppose the usage of "British" in the intros & UK in the infoboxes. Vaze50, is only starting to realise that. GoodDay (talk) 14:44, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

GoodDay, you were identifying editors as being "British" and suggesting they were collectively being both unreasonable and stubborn. It would be tempting for me to make a similar comment about non-British editors. But that sort of personal attack doesn't progress the argument in any way, other than to suggest that as a source of our differing views. I can't change being Scottish and you can't change being Canadian (I assume from your user page). I suppose we could go live in each other's countries for a few years to gain the opposite perspectives, that's not really a practical solution to trying to work out what Wikipedia should include in an infobox. With these kinds of debates, where editors have strong opinions, and don't seem minded at all to reach a consensus, it is often useful to see how other professional publications handle it. -- Colin°^Talk 15:23, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

There's never going to ever be a consensus for what Vaze50 proposes. He'd have about the same amount of success convincing American editors to use "Californian" or "Minnesotan"; Canadian editors to use "Manitoban" or "Prince Edward Islander". It just ain't gonna happen for him. GoodDay (talk) 15:29, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

WikiProject Medicine Newsletter - September 2021

Issue 15—September 2021

WikiProject Medicine Newsletter

Newly recognized content

Charles Lester Leonard nom. Larry Hockett, reviewed by Dracophyllum Clarence Lushbaugh nom. Tpdwkouaa, reviewed by Larry Hockett Elmer Ernest Southard nom. EricEnfermero, reviewed by Khazar2

Nominated for review

Trisomy X nom. Vaticidalprophet Atul Gawande nom. BennyOnTheLoose C. Edmund Kells nom. Larry Hockett, under review by AryKun Slipping rib syndrome nom. TheRibinator Body image disturbance nom. Srobodao84 Vitamin B6 nom. David notMD Deep vein thrombosis is listed for peer review to prepare for FAC. Please contribute. Body image disturbance is listed for peer review. Please contribute.

News from around the site

• Vaticidalprophet, our reigning expert on chromosomal disorders, has retired (temporarily, we hope)

Discussions of interest

• A discussion considers merging the functionality of {{find medical sources}} into {{Talk header}} with a manually applied parameter.

Discuss this issue

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Thanks, Ajpolino (talk) 20:24, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

CEE meeting

I think you might appreciate this talk (~8 minutes) from the recent m:CEE online meeting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNeXoSou2h4&t=6694s WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:20, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

WhatamIdoing, was there a particular presentation, such as the first one? That was certainly provocative. -- Colin°^Talk 11:12, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

The timestamp in the link should skip you straight to Łukasz's presentation, which opens with Conway's law. It is an interesting idea, isn't it? WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:07, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

I have some deja vu about the comment that a Wikipedian insisted on the food that event organisers should offer. I'm not sure what best describes Wikipedias social model, but I agree it isn't a fit for an organisation or company. -- Colin°^Talk 12:22, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

WT:MED

Colin, I am iPad typing, not home and having a hard time keeping up. Could you please have a look at WT:MED? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:40, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

I would rather go back to my garden then to have to conduct a community-wide RFC to deal with something that never should have happened. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:21, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Regarding your question on the Medicine Wikiproject talk page

Regarding this question, I've only written N-glycosyltransferase, RVxP motif and Subgenual organ, none of which are "medicine" per se. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:49, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

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Assange and BBC

Can't blame you unwatching! :-) But as to the BBC and Guardian, media critique sites have noticed that too, see [13] for the UK and Fairness & Accuracy in Reporting have reported a few times on the same sort of thing in the US. The BBC have never mentioned Thordarson's recanting of his testimony which underlies most of the US case, and I don't think it has mentioned the CIA planning to kidnap or murder him either. The Guardian has mentioned both eventually at least. NadVolum (talk) 18:37, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

NadVolum, you cite a source whose purpose is to right-great-wrongs, as they see it. WEIGHT isn't interested in why sources don't cover some stories, and it isn't up to us to try to argue for Wikipedia to give more coverage than reliable sources do. Editors who are passionate about a story, as many on that talk page seem to be, usually have a different sense of its importance to neutral people. I don't want to get drawn into the politics of it all, which generally seems to be about being deeply unpleasant about those one disagrees with, and more interested in finding ways to misunderstand an analogy than to understand the other person's point. -- Colin°^Talk 18:53, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

I understand that and I'm not asking for anything like that. I was just pointing out that your argument from lack of coverage in the BBC is wrong. If you read WP:WEIGHT it does not require coverage in corporate media sources, only decent coverage in reliable ones. If you went by the BBC you'd probably only know that he and Stella Moris are hoping to get married and that the court decided he could be extradited. There are other reliable sources which cover things in more detail. NadVolum (talk) 19:03, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

NadVolum I don't think the lack of coverage, and buried coverage in the BBC and Guardian are irrelevant: they indicate a concern. A full analysis of WEIGHT looks at all reliable sources (and really, we shouldn't be including the tabloids at all). That you have a publication that claims the BBC and Guardian are somehow deliberately not covering the topic, isn't relevant to WEIGHT. One problem with googling for sources is that one can find any minor factoid if you search for it, but you can't find publications that don't mention the factoid (for whatever reason). So it isn't enough to say a, b, c and d all mention some fact, when you find those sources with Google. You have to deliberately pick some other reliable sources that you might expect to cover it, and look for it there. That's why I'm concerned about this topic's weight. In the end, editors tend to over-weight recent current affair topics, and often forget to revisit it in a year or two when nobody anywhere is mentioning it. Remember too this is an international encyclopaedia, so you need to check the US media at least. -- Colin°^Talk 19:54, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

I was interested in your choosing the BBC and the Guardian as those two are well known for this sort of thing as shown by that reference I gave above, the BBC for its strategic omissions, much more than others, and the Guardian for its strong bias against Assange after some trouble between them and Assange some years ago, though lately it has got a bit better. I wondered why you chose them in particular. All the news sources given in the middle of that discussion get the green light at WP:RSP and yet you wanted even more. Please just follow what WP:WEIGHT actually says. Doing what you say makes Wikipedia an unreliable government or corporate source rather than a reliable encyclopaedia - basically you are filtering to accentuate government and corporate bias. See [14] about what you are supporting. Wikipedia has an article about it at Media bias and Media_bias_in_the_United_States#Corporate_power is quite relevant too as it shows how it happens - read what George Orwell said in the 'pro-government' section there about England! NadVolum (talk) 23:52, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

I chose The Guardian as that's my newspaper (like, I actually pay for it) and The BBC as that's a politically neutral free news source for the UK. The Guardian is owned by a trust, so hardly a "corporate". I'm not aware that the BBC is now Pravada, hmm. You seem happy with Al Jazeera, which is funded in part by the Qatari government. The Telegraph is owned by two billionaires. LBC is the website of a London radio station, so hardly my first choice, and owned by a not quite billionaire family. I don't know about the Sydney Morning Herald, but if one has to randomly pick a newspaper from the other side of the world, when there are other English speaking news outlets.. If there is doubt that the story has WEIGHT, then the solution is to find more good sources as evidence, not to dig up conspiracy theories as to why the BBC and Guardian are 'suppressing' the news. The Fair.org website say "We expose neglected news stories". The problem is WP:WEIGHT and WP:RGW require "reported in mainstream media", not "ok, it is neglected by major news sites but it should be covered on Wikipedia because those sites are biased".

The problem with the Assange discussion is that editors are arguing from a position they have already firmly taken, which is human, but it is a waste of time to argue with closed minds. -- Colin°^Talk 08:59, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

I see you have been on Wikipedia since 2006 and yet you still use your internal feelings rather than external measures. The good thing I have noticed in the Wikipedia policies is they try and get away from personal feelings and class anything based on them as original research. You chose the BBC to measure Assange against, why? because you thought if it was important enough the BBC would cover it? If you check the BBC they have had hardly any coverage apart from the conclusions of the trials and that he's engaged to Stella Moris. Do you really think all the other stuff in the aricle is conspiracy theory because it is based on other reliable sources? And by the way he is Australian and that's why the Sydney Morning Herard gets interested. Wikipedia is not a British only or American only publication. Those sources I gave about the behaviour of the media are reputable media critique sources. Fairness & Accuracy in Reporting is widely respected and referred to, it can be considered biased but it gets the basic facts right. the British site Media Lens has not been around so long and is more limited but the article has a number of points about BBC coverage. Personally I think very highly of the BBC and the Guardian, just they have some very real biases and limitations, one can consider them as blind spots. NadVolum (talk) 17:11, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Could you point me to the place on Wikipedia where The Guardian and BBC News are now considered unreliable biased sources of current-affair stories, and can't be considered when judging WP:WEIGHT? I don't think my opinion that these are respected mainstream sources is just "internal feelings" rather than based on "external measures": both regularly win awards for their journalism. Are you really trying to claim LBC is a more reliable source for politics or following court cases than those two? Sounds more like you are cherry-picking sources that agree with you or give importance to your topic, and suddenly the right-wing organ of two billionaire brothers is ok but The Guardian is "corporate media". That a Qatari-funded Al Jazeera is ok, but BBC News is a "government source". These are all generally considered to be reliable. We can't really start excluding heavyweight sources like these just because someone somewhere thinks Assange isn't getting the press he deserves. I think all these media sources have their good and bad points but by combining them all we approximate to mainstream consensus. For example, I'm sure The Guardian gives more weight to positive stories about and the opinions of Labour MPs and The Daily Telegraph is similarly weighted to Conservative MPs. But we can't start excluding one for a story about X just because we are unhappy with their view of X. -- Colin°^Talk 17:48, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

I never said they were unreliable sources even for Assange. That the US site fair.org sometimes criticizes the BBC and the Guardian is more a sign of how they are generally held in high regard. However you used the absence of coverage on the BBC site as a reason for doubting other reliable sources which is not in line with WP:WEIGHT. That says "Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources". Saying that another source you pick doesn't cover something as a reason for doubting others is simply your own original research and has no support in policy and leads to silliness and bias. All the sources given in the middle of that discussion are marked green in Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources. They don't go in for deliberate falsehoods. This article from fair.org has an explanation of what happens [15]. NadVolum (talk) 23:28, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Those sources are reliable for reporting what his fiancée claims. Most of them, however, do not go as far as stating Assange had a stroke, in their own voice, unattributed. I mention the BBC/Guardian for WEIGHT purposes. Do you agree that if we are to assess the weight of a matter (whether to give it coverage and how much) then we need to deliberately look at a decent sample of reliable sources to see what they say (if anything). You can't determine weight of a marginal point just by Googling as that is biased towards those site that do give it coverage and particularly those who give it extensive coverage (headlines). All I did was go to two natural sources for me, my own newspaper and a national neutral broadcaster, to see what they said. That the BBC didn't cover it and The Guardian buried it is just a concern, not the last word. They just add to the accumulated data we can use to assess WEIGHT. I don't believe sites like fair.org or Media Lens should be taken into account to dismiss sites when doing this weight analysis, and I think you'd need to get some site-wide consensus for that if you want to keep arguing that point. I think it is better to accept that all sources have their biases and blind spots and that's why we pick a selection of mainstream media sources, rather than just two, say. I remain confused why you keep trying to teach me about corporate news ownership being bad, when my paper is owned by a trust for that very reason. That's why I pay a subscription, to maintain a newspaper with those values.

I'm more interested in generally how we determine whether to include some fact, than the particular issues of the Assange bio. I've seen how politics affects the covid discussions, and it can be very hard to have a reasonable argument about policy or guideline or editing, because every inch one gives one way or another is used to determine winners and losers in a political battle. There's a huge pressure to include current news stories, and hard to argue against a list of google results all repeating those stories. People want to include or censor, to juxtapose or separate facts to make their own political points. When policy and guideline is just then used as a weapon in a political fight, it gets a bit tiresome for those who aren't interested in the battle, and sometimes it can be quite concerning if those policies and guidelines start being altered or reinterpreted by one side. -- Colin°^Talk 10:15, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

As to "Do you agree that if we are to assess the weight of a matter (whether to give it coverage and how much) then we need to deliberately look at a decent sample of reliable sources to see what they say (if anything)", no that is wrong and in contradiction to WP:WEIGHT. Your looking at the BBC site for weight is wrong because it omits important things which are included in the article and are included in other reliable sources. Never mind that WP:WEIGHT applies to individual things as well. We are agreed that it should be attributed to Stella Moris, however the idea that she might be telling outright lies would need good sources as she is a lawyer. Also she said he had an MRI test and was on stroke medicine, though that is only in yellow listed sources not the green ones I see no good reason to doubt it. I was not dismissing the BBC or Guardian. I was saying the WP:WEIGHT policy is a good one and should not be ignored. If WP:WEIGHT is followed then there is a reasonable guard against corporate bias like in the BBC or the antagonism in the Guardian. I want that editors on Wikipedia prefer Wikipedias policies rather than prejudices gained from their favourite sites. As to the Guardian see David Leigh (journalist) and consider how much stupidity or enmity it takes to publish an encrytion key to unredacted leaks, that has been the basis of a lot of Assanges troubles, and he called Assange a reckless amateur! He also put in a very damaging statement in his book with Luke Harding about Assange saying "They're informants, they deserve to die" about Afghan informants at a dinner which is denied in a sworn affadavit by a journalist from Der Spiegel who was there. Of course only David Leigh is normally quoted not any evidence it might be false. NadVolum (talk) 14:46, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

I'm just not understanding your WEIGHT argument and don't know how better to frame my position without repeating. Arguments like someone is either right or is "telling outright lies" aren't helpful. People can be wrong without lying. They can misunderstand, they can repeat things with more confidence than they were told, they can see cause-effect (e.g. that the stroke was caused by stress) when that may not be the cause. We really aren't as Wikipedians supposed to be judging whether something is true based on whether someone claims he had this or that test or is on this or that medicine. We go with how our reliable sources judge it. They go no further than attribution to a named non-neutral source. It isn't really important to me why they do it or whether it is justified in your opinion, it just is what it is.

NadVolum, I unwatched the Assange talk page because people were being nasty rather than arguing with respect. The first sentence of your post at 17:11 yesterday is just an insult really. I think that when judging the WP:WEIGHT of a UK current-affairs story, then it would be reasonable to include BBC News and The Guardian among the selection of sources examined (of which many others were already listed). I'm quite sure you won't find many editors who think that is just a preposterous idea that they label me so "prejudiced" that I don't follow Wikipedia policies. Perhaps it is better if we agree to disagree and you argue instead with someone who cares about the Assange bio. -- Colin°^Talk 15:18, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Well as I said I sympathize with you going because of the warring going on there. As to insulting you, well I did consider whether I should bother coming here as I viewed it as like [16] and you seemed to view everyone there as cranks with axes to grind so any communication would be very problematic. But you did seem to value the idea of a neutral point of view. I will outline the basic algorithm of how I interpret the Wikipedia policies about deciding on stuff toinclude in an article:

1. Something about the subject crops up.
2. Look for sources about it including ones that actually say something different.
3. Rate the sources found by reliability according to Wikipedia guidelnes.
4. Apply WP:WEIGHT, maybe more than one point of view should be included if anything is.
5. Check the rating of the first few against the overall rating of souces in the article.
6. If it has a higher rating then probably a good candidate since it was noticed.
7. If it of about the same level then try to include if seems reasonable otherwise discuss.
8. If a bit lower discuss if it seems reasonably important.
9. If much lower discuss only if it seems very important. Someone else may well have a different take or be able to find better sources.

I see you as applying another filter, check favourite sources and see if they say anything, and take that as the weight. That's what I'm saying is as far as I know in contradiction to Wikipedia policy. For instance Yahoo published an aricle about the CIA planning to kidnap or murder Assange. This has never been covered on the BBC (except in its Somali language version). Some information about this came out before the Yahoo revelation at the extradition hearing and was covered in the Guardian [17]. This was placed in the article at the time even though the BBC ignore it and it has ignored the Yahoo revelations too. Most of the green listed sources at WP:RSP ignored the original story and only said something when the Yahoo story came out. Pick the wrong ones and it would have been below your radar. I dont believe it is an unimportant story. Use the algorithm above and I think at least one has a decent chance of producing a reasonably unbiased article. NadVolum (talk) 22:52, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

When have I ever said "take that as the weight", that my "favourite sources" are "the weight". These are two important sources wrt UK current affairs. They should be included along with the others that were listed, to determine weight. I'm really not getting how that is in any way against policy or controversial on Wikipedia. The other sources that were listed all have their flaws too (local radio station, funded by Qatar, desperately reliant on pop-up and lame adverts for funding of their few remaining journalists (the Independent), owned by billionaires). My point about WP:WEIGHT is you have to look at many mainstream sources, even ones that you feel aren't giving your story the importance you think it deserves. NadVolum, if you disagree, I think it is probably better if you try to argue on a forum about policy change or questions, rather than my talk page. I'm not at all interested in Assange. -- Colin°^Talk 23:47, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Well this has gone on long enough and I don't think it has gone anywhere or led to a greater understanding for either of us. So I think the best thing to do is just stop. I'm sorry about that. NadVolum (talk) 21:29, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Remember stitching this back in 2013?

• 
• 

Finally have both the skills and a sufficiently powerful computer to do this. FPC feels a lot quieter nowadays, but.... Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 7.8% of all FPs} 15:55, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Adam, well done on your improved version. I guess it doesn't need the "stitching help" comment on this version. -- Colin°^Talk 17:05, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

I don't think there's any reason not to give thanks for help. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 7.8% of all FPs} 17:11, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Ruddigore

An image created by you has been promoted to featured picture status Your image, File:H. M. Brock - Gilbert and Sullivan - D'Oyly Carte Opera Company Ruddigore revival 1921.jpg, was nominated on Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates, gained a consensus of support, and has been promoted. If you would like to nominate an image, please do so at Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates. Thank you for your contribution! Armbrust The Homunculus 02:16, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Featured picture scheduled for POTD

Hi Colin,

This is to let you know that File:Old Royal Naval College 2017-08-06.jpg, a featured picture you uploaded, has been selected as the English Wikipedia's picture of the day (POTD) for October 25, 2022. A preview of the POTD is displayed below and can be edited at Template:POTD/2022-10-25. If you have any concerns, please place a message at Wikipedia talk:Picture of the day. Thank you! --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 18:39, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

The Old Royal Naval College is the architectural centrepiece of Maritime Greenwich, a World Heritage Site in Greenwich, London, described by the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization as the "finest and most dramatically sited architectural and landscape ensemble in the British Isles". The buildings were originally constructed to serve as the Royal Hospital for Seamen at Greenwich, now generally known as Greenwich Hospital, which was chartered by King William III and Queen Mary II on 25 October 1694, designed by Christopher Wren, and built between 1696 and 1712. The hospital closed in 1869. Between 1873 and 1998 it housed the Royal Naval College, Greenwich. This panoramic photograph depicts the two buildings of the Old Royal Naval College viewed from across the River Thames, with the Queen's House visible in the background in between.

Photograph credit: Colin

Recently featured:

• Sociable weaver
• Lichfield Cathedral
• Alexander Fleming

WikiProject Medicine Newsletter - August 2022

Issue 18—August 2022

WikiProject Medicine Newsletter

Back (for now) by popular demand, it's the WP:MED Newsletter! Pardon the 9-month hiatus. This month features a catch-up list of promoted GAs since the last newsletter, and some calls to action for those looking to add to their todo lists. I hope this finds you well. Enjoy.

Newly recognized content

Since last newsletter (Nov. 1, 2021) Osteogenesis imperfecta nom. Psiĥedelisto, reviewed by Vaticidalprophet Tietze syndrome nom. TheRibinator, reviewed by Sennalen Coughs and sneezes spread diseases nom. AFreshStart, reviewed by No Great Shaker William Heath Byford nom. Delqa, reviewed by Ajpolino Henri Coutard nom. DanCherek, reviewed by Amitchell125 Riboflavin nom. David notMD, reviewed by Mertbiol Vitamin A nom. David notMD, reviewed by Hughesdarren

Nominated for review

Thiamine nom. David notMD Sesame allergy nom. David notMD

WP:MED News

• Since last newsletter, frightfully few medicine articles have passed through our main content review processes, Good Article and Featured Article. While we can agree there's more to editing than chasing bronze stars and green blobs, it would be nice to see the catalog of "Good" and "Featured" medicine articles growing rather than just aging. If you're interested in taking on a project but would like some light guidance or a helping hand, feel free to post your plans at WT:MED and you may find others willing to join.
• An ongoing effort seeks to review/update our oldest featured articles. Major depressive disorder, Lung cancer, and Schizophrenia are next on the chopping block (so to speak). If you're interested in helping to update any, please post at WT:MED or at those articles' talk pages. If you're new to the FA process, I'd encourage you to enlist the help of someone(s) who has been through the process before, as they can help clarify expectations and save you time.
• Got a minute? Running low on inspiration/motivation and need a simple task? Check out the 247 medicine articles tagged as citing no sources!

News from around the site

• The Reading/Web team has rolled out a new skin called "Vector 2022" that will soon become the default. Opt-in in your Preferences to try it out. As with any visual update, it'll take some getting used to. If you hate it, don't panic; once it becomes default you'll still be able to opt-out in your Preferences.
• The folks who brought us the nifty "Reply" button have now rolled out a "Subscribe" button to be notified of comments in a particular thread. I believe it's turned on for everyone now. Try it on a busy talk page (e.g. WT:MED).
• Voting is open for the community nominees to the WMF Board of Trustees, until September 6th.

Newsletter ideas, comments, and criticisms welcome here.

You are receiving this because you added your name to the WikiProject Medicine mailing list. If you no longer wish to receive the newsletter, please remove your name.

Ajpolino (talk) 21:28, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Editor of the Week

		Editor of the Week
		Your ongoing efforts to improve the encyclopedia have not gone unnoticed: You have been selected as Editor of the Week in recognition of your great contributions! (courtesy of the Wikipedia Editor Retention Project)

User:Buster7 submitted the following nomination for Editor of the Week:

Colin joined many years ago when WikiPedia was being invented. Over the years he has created 268 pages/articles including a continuing commitment to Ketogenic diet, created the Commons:Photo challenge, created Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine) (aka MEDRS), won Picture of the Year 2016, wrote the essay Wikipedia is not YouTube (WP:NOTYOUTUBE) and has 89 Featured Pictures on Commons. He is reknowned for his collegial helpful input and talk space demeanor. His balanced and neutral approach is a model for all editors.

You can copy the following text to your user page to display a user box proclaiming your selection as Editor of the Week:

{{User:UBX/EoTWBox}}

2 Tower of London ravens discuss Colin's attributes

Colin

Editor of the Week for the week beginning September 3, 2022

Reknowned for his collegial, helpful input and talk space demeanor and for having a balanced and neutral approach that is a model for all editors. Colin joined many years ago and has created 268 pages/articles, the Commons:Photo challenge and Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine) (aka MEDRS). He won Picture of the Year 2016 and wrote the essay Wikipedia is not UTube

Recognized for

89 Featured Pictures on Commons

Notable work

Ketogenic diet

Submit a nomination

Thanks again for your efforts! ―Buster7 ☎ 18:07, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Congrats @Colin! You deserve it! You're an invaluable and irreplaceable part of the project. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 20:19, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Buster7 and Shibbolethink thank you both for your kind words and consideration, and the funny caption on the photo. I trust the ravens are saying nice things about me. I hope I've been valuable over the years, though I don't think it is good for anyone to think they are irreplaceable. Well, I hope my wife thinks I'm irreplaceable! -- Colin°^Talk 19:41, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

WikiProject Medicine Newsletter - October 2022

Issue 19—October 2022

WikiProject Medicine Newsletter

Hello all. A short newsletter reflecting a quiet month in recognized content. If there's other types of content you'd like to see in the newsletter feel free to post suggestions here. Otherwise, here's your update for the month:

Newly recognized content

Sesame allergy nom. David notMD, reviewed by Nolabob

Nominated for review

Thiamine nom. David notMD, under review by Mertbiol Blood donation in India nom. Blood donation in India, under review by Larry Hockett COVID-19 pandemic nom. Ozzie10aaaa Cold medicine nom. That Coptic Guy

WP:MED News

• No news, which may be good news. Happy editing.

Newsletter ideas, comments, and criticisms welcome here.

You are receiving this because you added your name to the WikiProject Medicine mailing list. If you no longer wish to receive the newsletter, please remove your name.

Ajpolino (talk) 03:32, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Notice

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Psychologist Guy (talk) 20:57, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Psychologist Guy, thanks for your post at AN/I. I appreciate the apology you offered. Not a lot of people do that. I'm posting here because your talk page has messages from that other user, who I wish would take his own advice not to "cross paths" with me ever again. I think if you felt it necessary to avoid editors at WP:MED, then that would be a shame. We are on the same side, after all.

We seem to have got off on the wrong foot. I was trying to get you to stop posting more and more BLP violations and telling you to "go be insulting elsewhere" was clumsy and didn't work anyway. And there was no need to refer to your comments about plant-based anti-cancer research (even if off-topic) as "plant based quackery". So I apologise.

BLP rules on talk pages are not just there to keep things civil and respectful but also to stop you ending up like Simon Singh. He had the Guardian newspaper to help with costs, whereas you and I will not get any help from WMF if we write something careless about a real living person. I find WP:WEIGHT (which WP:MEDRS puts into practice) useful for arguing whether to include or eliminate material without having to actually defend or attack primary research or researchers. Does the secondary literature in reliable sources mention this research or its findings? If it does, then we can include it in proportion, if it doesn't then we don't. It makes it "somebody else's problem" to determine what is quackery and what is sound.

I see from your contribs you have an interest in biographies and there's an overlap with the history section of ketogenic diet. I think it is fascinating that the source of this diet was a fasting diet, which worked but not for the reasons its promoters claimed, and not as often as its promoters claimed. And this was then taken seriously by the most eminent neurologists of the day and developed into a dietary therapy at a time when there were no effective medicines.

I once asked a researcher why the KD was being investigated for all sorts of incurable neurological conditions. He said you have to remember that we still don't actually know why the KD works for epilepsy, so having a sound theory as to why it might work for Alzheimer's, say, isn't necessarily required. Some epilepsy drugs work but not for the reasons they were designed or selected. And the same is true of some other drugs that affect the mind. We are just so ignorant. He said that few drugs and therapies get into the brain and fundamentally change how brain cells work, and the KD does that. And the important thing is, like epilepsy in the 1920s, these conditions and cancers really are still incurable to medicine, so it is worth trying. -- Colin°^Talk 09:20, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi Colin I mostly try and stay away from article talk-pages so it was rare for me to have left that rant on the talk-page to begin with. I am just willing to put it down to a mistake from me and move on. I have broken the BLP policy, made a mistake as they say and I am willing to admit that and move on. What I really use this website for is to create historical biographies. I mostly create biographies for deceased people. I am more interested in diets from a historical point of view. The history is more interesting to me. I have written biographies for historical individuals who promoted all kinds of diets including low-carb, meat-only, paleo, vegan, vegetarian, fruitarian, fasting etc. What's interesting to me is that many of the modern health claims being promoted for many of these diets have been promoted in the past but much of this history is often forgotten. A lot of these health claims (curing cancer etc) have been around for over 100 years yet todays influencers say similar things just brushed up with modern language. I agree with you about KD being beneficial for epilepsy (there is even some evidence for improved cognitive behaviour) but I am skeptical about other conditions. There is an issue of industry funding and motives behind some of the modern researchers but I agree it is not up to me to be doing personal research on the researchers that can run into BLP violations. I have apologized for that and won't be doing that anymore on this website, I think we should just let the references speak for themselves. I will stay away from that article but I will add articles for historical individuals associated with it where possible. There are two recent reviews here that you might want to add to the ketogenic article [18], [19].

On the ketogenic article there is a man named Hugh William Conklin. Who is that man, when did he live, do any photographs exist of him? It seems nobody on the internet has written a biography of him. I am interested in those sort of questions and doing research into forgotten people. It seems he wasn't just promoting fasting but some other ideas as well. I would like to create an article for that guy. I don't want to make any enemies with experienced users on this website (as you say we are all trying to improve this place), life is too short to be making complications with people. It's easier just get a long and help each other. I dont know much about the user "Tryptofish" but whoever they are I like them and they done good work on here. I understand it's not possible to get on with everyone on here so users in the end just avoid each other, I am ok with that as well. Psychologist Guy (talk) 18:39, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

There's no need for you to avoid KD. Just remember that it is a featured article so best to discuss radical changes first. And be aware the diet is often used today in children who have failed on half a dozen drugs already, so this is a highly refractory group who aren't as likely to respond to any treatment or even spontaneously get better. Indeed, some are heading in the other direction. I think clinical guidelines (which make use of systematic reviews), are ideal for helping us interpret the science in a clinically relevant way.

I don't have access to the full text for those two papers. I may have to reach out to some wiki friends to see if they can help. This is a frustrating limitation to my editing ability on Wikipedia. A further help you could do on KD is identify if we are citing any weak journals, as I'm not familiar enough with the publication debates.

I don't know much about Conklin and suspect my epilepsy papers will only cover him briefly where he sparks off the ketogenic diet story. The KD article has that newspaper clipping. When I started on Wikipedia, I also created a bunch of historical bio articles. Some are related to the Timeline of tuberous sclerosis that I wrote.

• William Gordon Lennox
• Stanley Cobb
• Frederic A. Gibbs
• Heinrich Vogt
• Édouard Brissaud
• John James Pringle
• François Henri Hallopeau
• Manuel Rodríguez Gómez
• Christian Archibald Herter
• Félix Balzer
• Émile Leredde
• Alfred Walter Campbell
• Jan van der Hoeve

Many of these people were very important in their day, yet Wikipedia seems to be better at documenting random football players. Colin°^Talk 09:17, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

ILAE Wikiprdia Epilepsy project

You have made contributions to Tuberous sclerosis in the past. You are most welcome to join and help us on the Epilepsy articles as they get edited or you may want to contribute some edits or create stub articles. NandanYardi (talk) 18:48, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

@colin,If needed kindly reach out for stub article topics not existing on wikipedia NandanYardi (talk) 18:51, 7 October 2022 (UTC) NandanYardi, thanks.

I'll see what I can do. Hmm, I should have another look at the tuberous sclerosis article to update it. -- Colin°^Talk 19:21, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Sure ..welcome NandanYardi (talk) 16:13, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

COVID: get well soon

Feel better soon! We both had COVID in July, took paxlovid, and were well the next day. I hope you do as well! 14:53, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

Insert email notification sound here!

Hello, Colin. Please check your email; you've got mail!
It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template. Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:24, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks

Just want to say that I appreciate you fighting the good fight. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 20:33, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

AN/I notice

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is User:Locke Cole accusing me of being disruptive. Thank you. —Locke Cole • t • c 02:21, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

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User contributed images

Hi Colin, I would value your advice or comments on this discussion regarding user made images contravening WP:OR and needing WP:V User_talk:A455bcd9#Why_not_do_something_useful. I took objection to this user tagging some of my diagrams. Maybe I am in the wrong. Best regards. Graham Beards (talk) 19:18, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

There is WP:IMAGEOR. I'm not sure what else is explicitly stated in policy. If you look in the talk archives of WP:OR and WP:V you see that images are perennially discussed. I contributed to Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/Archive 72#Unreferenced pictures from Commons. From a scan of the archives User:WhatamIdoing has been handling this question since 2010!

I think that if a user has a genuine concern about the image being wrong or making a claim they sincerely doubt, then it is fine to raise that question on talk, and if the claim is on the Commons description then raise it at Commons too. As my ravens example in the above discussion shows, this can identify real faults that get fixed, though not necessarily by sticking a source citation on it. Just going through images slapping tags on them seems very unhelpful. I wonder even if that tag has a justifiable use.

I also see that the user changed changed from PNG to SVG but the images are not equivalent, lacking the all important virus (14). That's just careless. -- Colin°^Talk 20:46, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Colin, as always most helpful. The missing virus is really annoying! I spent ages putting it in (all those years ago). May I take the liberty of directing the user in question to this discussion? Best regards, Graham Beards (talk) 21:13, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

@Graham Beards No problem. -- Colin°^Talk 22:08, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

See also Wikipedia talk:No original research#Maps, OR, and SYNTHESIS with this same user.

IMO this area requires a nuanced understanding of both the overall goal and the rules. The best practice is not something that can be easily set out in one or two absolute statements. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:27, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Hi, I didn't know whether I should answer here or on @Graham Beards's talk page, so, I've just answered there. Best, A455bcd9 (talk) 09:02, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Peace Dove

Peace is a state of balance and understanding in yourself and between others, where respect is gained by the acceptance of differences, tolerance persists, conflicts are resolved through dialog, peoples rights are respected and their voices are heard, and everyone is at their highest point of serenity without social tension.

Happy Holidays. ―Buster7 ☎ 07:36, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Great photos!

I looked at your userpage in the course of responding to your comment elsewhere, and wanted to say that I really like your photography! Images that stood out particularly were the ravens at the Tower, the escalators at Lloyd's, and the tourists at the National Monument. Good eye. —Ganesha811 (talk) 13:40, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Hi Ganesha811. Thanks for this. Wrt the other topic, I think a facepalm is certainly needed for what they posted offline. You linked to some articles you think are biased that they wrote. I don't know how much you edit in this area. Most articles on either side of the trans debate are very polarised and most of the editors working on them are very opinionated and not afraid to say so. That they have an opinion is not unusual. These kinds of articles strongly focus on the negatives that have been published. So they can be a bit shocking if you haven't read similar. But a problem is that the article subject isn't known for being neutral or for their kind words about such and such, they are known for being radical and often hateful.

Have you looked at Andrew Wakefield. Our article calls him a "discredited academic" who "falsely claimed" involved in "anti-vaccination activism" and a "fraud". Indeed we have an article Lancet MMR autism fraud. At first glance, someone who didn't know him or the topic, might think they'd stumbled across some attack blog posting. But then, this is what reliable source do write about him. Reliable sources have no praise for him at all, so we can't balance things out by writing some nice things about how handsome and friendly he is, or whatever. I haven't studied your linked articles in details and their sources, but they don't by a long way strike me as the worst content in this area. They seem quite typical in fact. Btw, have you installed "Who wrote that?" in your browser. It lets you see who wrote every bit of article text.

My concern is that we have reasons to topic ban people, and they are mostly about disruption and not getting it. This is a relatively new editor (I assume, unless they had a previous account). That they have written articles and expanded articles is actually a good thing. We can make them better. There are lots, and I mean lots, of editors in this domain who haven't created or written anything. They just edit war (always below the 3RR) and argue and revert. And turn up at AN/I and vote to topic ban someone "on the other side". -- Colin°^Talk 14:56, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your detailed response. I don't edit in this topic area at all; I generally prefer to steer clear of hotly contested areas. It's a polarizing topic, and I think this editor is genuinely unable to keep their strong personal beliefs from impacting their editing in this area. I think we can agree that this user has good potential for their future contributions. A topic ban (hopefully temporary) would be a chance for them to step back, develop their skills in other areas, and eventually return to contributing more neutrally and effectively. Thanks for the tip on the browser extension - looks useful! —Ganesha811 (talk) 15:21, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Oh, you may well be right about "unable to keep their strong beliefs from impacting their editing in this area". I don't know them at all well. Its just, if that was the standard, then there are lots of other editors (some who voted for a ban) who should be ahead of them in the queue out the door. What do you think, based on their username and articles worked-on/created, do you think will be the response to a topic ban? That they'll just go and edit some articles on railway stations instead?

The set of editors I see in this topic domain are all highly opinionated and see their mission on Wikipedia to fight for their cause. The only difference I see with that editor is they were foolish enough to write about it offline, and they actually created some articles, rather than just edit war and revert and comment on talk pages. Some editors in this domain are very naïve about how to write neutrally, and their contributions only represent one side of the argument. That editor was silly enough to write a whole article that you could point at, rather than spend months edit warring and arguing about a single paragraph at LGB Alliance or whatever. Some editors in this domain go around inventing policies and just totally making shit up all time till you wonder if you and they are editing the same Wikipedia. There are few good editors. We should get rid of the bad ones, if they won't improve, but not this way. Not via a banned sock account outing them. -- Colin°^Talk 15:44, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

I see you replied to them at the AN/I. I don't disagree with your criticisms about how bias can creep in even when saying accurate things, etc. I guess my point is that most of the editors in this area are at least as bad as that. They find shit on the internet, insert it in the most strongly worded biased way that your eyes pop out, and then other editors battle with them till it ends up not quite so offensively worded or even gets removed. Rinse and repeat. Expecting individual editors in this area to all be saints is unrealistic. The question is whether they are collaborating with other editors in good faith and willing to compromise to get a result that approaches consensus. If they are doing that, it doesn't matter so much if what they initially post or create isn't great. Are they edit warring, getting blocks, constantly being taken to AN/I or wasting our time taking others to AN/I and so on. When warned, do they argue they haven't broken 3RR so go away. Do they waste everyone's time arguing on talk pages about the small stuff. I mean, I've recently had discussions with editors arguing to keep content that mentions a deleted tweet and pushing it because it supposedly says something about an organisations beliefs. I'd frankly much rather someone wrote articles than argue about a sentence. -- Colin°^Talk 16:02, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

It's a fair perspective from someone who clearly observes how this topic area works, but in my view, creating articles deliberately in order to cast people/organizations in a bad light is crossing the line. A topic ban is a necessary step back. —Ganesha811 (talk) 16:17, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

There is currently a discussion at [20] regarding an issue which may interest you. Best regards, —Cote d'Azur (talk) 08:46, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks

Hi @Colin. From the sidelines, but wanted to thank you for trying to remain objective and balanced in your judgments in the recent (and ongoing) ANI discussion about gensex advocacy. As someone who has been here for less than three years, I am really encouraged to see experienced editors lead by example. Ppt91^talk 20:55, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

NORN

Hey Colin. A small thing: your recent comment at WP:NORN mistakenly labeled the noticeboard as the NPOV one. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 20:36, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. I think I fixed it. Too any acronyms. -- Colin°^Talk 21:15, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Changing the copyright laws

https://forum.movement-strategy.org/t/join-our-project-copyright-campaign-crowdsourcing/2843 reminded me of that FOP image with the London landmarks removed. Maybe you're interested? WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:41, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

WikiProject Med Newsletter - Issue 21

Issue 21—June 2023

WikiProject Medicine Newsletter

Hello all. Another irregular edition of the newsletter; pardon the six-month gap. I was inspired to collect this after seeing how much activity there is in the GA space on the medicine front. Please review a GAN if you have time, and help to welcome more medicine editors into the fold:

Recognized content (since January 1!)

Trinidad Arroyo nom. Thebiguglyalien, reviewed by Mike Christie Mycobacterium nom. BluePenguin18, reviewed by Ealdgyth

Nominated for review

Hanhart syndrome nom. Etriusus, under review by Dancing Dollar Persistent stapedial artery nom. X750 Howard Florey nom. Hawkeye7 History of penicillin nom. Hawkeye7 Cataract surgery nom. Pbsouthwood COVID-19 pandemic nom. Ozzie10aaaa, under review by Shibbolethink Mohamed Hamad Satti nom. FuzzyMagma El Hadi Ahmed El Sheikh nom. FuzzyMagma Mansour Ali Haseeb nom. FuzzyMagma Sinus tarsi syndrome for peer review by Pear1020

WP:MED News

• Wikipedia:Good article reassessment is back in business, with a new process and new coordinators. If you see medicine-related GAs that may no longer meet the GA criteria, feel free to nominate them for attention/reassessment (please, not too many at once, lest we get overwhelmed). I'll incorporate them into the listings above.
• Major depressive disorder, Schizophrenia, and Dengue fever are featured articles that need updating. Feel free to chime in at the talk pages or WT:MED if you have the time/bandwidth to help update. They'll likely go to featured article review for more feedback in the near(ish) future (probably in the order listed).

Newsletter ideas, comments, and criticisms welcome here.

You are receiving this because you added your name to the WikiProject Medicine mailing list. If you no longer wish to receive the newsletter, please remove your name.

Ajpolino (talk) 04:10, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

You deserve other barnstars too

		The Barnstar of Integrity
		Theheezy (talk) 07:56, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks Theheezy. -- Colin°^Talk 08:54, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

If you have time...

Hi Colin, I know time is always in short supply, but if you can find time to read over prostate cancer and share any suggestions for improvement, I'd be grateful. Your careful commentary at lung cancer and dracunculiasis (which I will return to eventually) was fantastic and much appreciated. I'm hoping to bring prostate cancer to FAC whenever it's ready, so feel free to pick nits. But also it's not too late for large-scale changes if you find something deeply lacking. I haven't started on the images yet, but will do so this week. Any image suggestions are appreciated. I'm aesthetically challenged. Ajpolino (talk) 14:21, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Sure. If I forget, please feel free to poke me with a stick. -- Colin°^Talk 14:41, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Pardon my slowness, but I've finally caught up on yours and SandyGeorgia's suggestions (I think). If you've got time for another readthrough, I'd very much appreciate any comments. I hope you'll find the article at least slightly improved from last time. Thank you again for your prior comments. I hope all is well over there! Ajpolino (talk) 19:39, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

derailing RFCs

Hi, I do not want to elevate this to ANI, however, I'm going to ask that you remove the irrelevant paragraph laced with thinly veiled personal attacks. You are more than welcome to contribute to the discussion productively. However, by filling the thread with irrelevant, frankly nonsense, you are ensuring no resolution will come about this. I am attempting to fix this. DarmaniLink (talk) 16:32, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

DarmaniLink, can I suggest please that you just drop it. AN/I loves giving out boomerangs. Your hostile attitude at Talk:Otoya Yamaguchi, followed by directly removing the guideline text you were in conflict with, followed by going to the Village Pump will be perceived as gaming the system in order to "win" your content dispute. Something I have learned, but still get wrong at times, is that if something is important, it will be important to other people too. You've made 30 posts to the Village Pump. If other people think you have a point, they'd have picked it up and run with it by now. I can very much see you are desperate to ensure a resolution and don't want to drop it until you have one. But other editors on Wikipedia do not share your view that this topic must be resolved right now and to the satisfaction of DarmaniLink. This topic is a huge timesink on Wikipedia. The reason you aren't getting a resolution isn't because I have derailed your RFC. It is because nobody wants to have yet another mega discussion on the issue, and particularly not with editors who's behaviour is hostile and comments mostly inaccurate. -- Colin°^Talk 17:08, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Then remove the paragraph so this doesn't escalate further, and allow the discussion that was previously in the process of taking place, to take place. DarmaniLink (talk) 17:22, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Contentious topic behavior

You have recently made edits related to the English Wikipedia Manual of Style and article titles policy. This is a standard message to inform you that the English Wikipedia Manual of Style and article titles policy is a designated contentious topic. This message does not imply that there are any issues with your editing. For more information about the contentious topics system, please see Wikipedia:Contentious topics.

In particularly, please stop vindictively individually personalizing style disputes, especially by labeling anyone who disagrees with you as a "conservative" who is going after "woke social justice warriors". That is just not okay.

I see that you've been made aware of WP:CTOP (formerly WP:AC/DS) in this topic area at least twice before, but not within the last year, so this is a reminder.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:34, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

I fail to see how any reasonable person can read any of Colin's comments about the text in the guideline and conclude that it is even remotely aimed at an editor, a person, or even a group of people. I suggest you re-read. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:43, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

I have, several times, and it is clearly politicized dogwhistle aspersion-casting at those who don't agree with Colin's position. So, I tend to conclude that you have not read the comments in particular that raised the concern. E.g., "Some editors believe Wikipedia should be very conservative" [21] is indisputably a comment about other editors, by definition (so are the various bits of mocking me by name). Colin then doubled down: implying that I in particular made a "mocking comment about [offsite opinions] being written by woke social justice warriors" [22], when what I actually said (correctly) is that they are advocacy material, is undeniably straw man aspersion-casting along the same "come attack the right-winger" dogwhistling lines. Trying to cast me or anyone else in that discussion as conservatives going after "woke SJWs" is malign, battlegrounding bullshit, and you both know it. Playing WP:WINNING games at other editors' ad hominem expense ("I am absolutely loving this", etc.) is uncivil at best.

But I did not come here to have a user behavior debate; I came here to drop off a CTOP notice, so that if having a user behavior examination due to potential worsening of this behavior becomes an actual need at AE that is not short-circuited by an "awareness" technicality. I didn't make up these silly CTOP "awareness" rules; ArbCom did. Changing the name away from "discretionary sanctions" hasn't improved their sensibility any.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:21, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Happy to address any concerns that my post implied you were right wing. Since I've never thought you were right wing, or politically conservative, I'm not sure how it is fair to accuse me of dogwhistling that you are and so should be attacked for being such. I admit I got a bit carried away and my post was not particularly kind. I would suggest though that you also examine how you are describing and "labelling anyone who disagrees with you" on that page. Lastly, I have just now scrolled down to the bottom of the lengthy post and I see an interaction where you were defending me against accusations of making a personal attack. Thank you for doing that. -- Colin°^Talk 09:47, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

I responded over there (more concisely this time). But it's still kind of argumentative/defensive, so maybe not helpful in the long run. In the end, I don't get the point of pillorying me when I had just come around to your position on that specific MoS issue. And it's hard to see how mixing in claims that "editors" (that you were disputing) are trying to make WP conservative, followed by another post that is critical of my position in particular and then goes into "woke social justice warriors" language right after that, weren't supposed be intepreted as implying I and anyone else resistant to the "suicide" change were conservatives against "woke SJWs". But I'll just take your word for it that I'm misunderstanding it and drop the matter. On the defense: You're welcome. I don't like it when people take any disagreement with them or criticism of their approach as an "attack" (even if I've possibly overreacted myself here; maybe that makes me hypocritical?). I had multiple people go after me for resisting neopronouns in WP's own voice this week, so maybe I'm on edge. PS: I do try to be mindful "labelling anyone who disagrees with me". But calling activism or advocacy by those terms isn't hostile or deriding in any way, it's just observational. Activism by nature is good-faith (the activist believes what they are doing is important for the betterment of the world). Advocacy at an encyclopedia is just an NPOV problem by its very nature, and internally can become a project-distorting one. I'm not anti-activist (activism was my job for ages); I'm anti-activism-on-Wikipedia, and holding that view is consistent with policy. It would be very different if I really were going around calling people "woke" and "SJWs" and (as someone tried to straw-man me yesterday at WT:MOSBIO) "snowflakes". That would be both deriding and pushing a PoV [which I don't actually hold!] just as activistic but from the other side.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  11:22, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

How about if you had written "Colin, could you just clarify what kind of "conservative" you are talking about here because I don't want anyone to get the impression I'm some kind of anti-woke right wing agenda pusher." that would have been a lot more AFG than coming here and accusing me of dog whistle politics and trying to cancel you.

Wrt influence, you suggest it is when you write something "other editors find compelling". That may be true, but you can also influence MOS by the sheer volume and hostility of your attack on anyone who doesn't share your strong and black-and-white acceptable/not-acceptable beliefs about what sources should inform MOS, for example. That coming to MOS with a link to Samaritans, say, or the Guardian style guide, or the World Health Organisation, rather than citing chapter and verse from Garner's, will be subject to a screenful of lecturing about activists. The editor's concern, about how we might write about suicide, is not addressed on its merits but dismissed out of hand because they did it wrong or didn't cite an authority you personally respect. I can't think of any other publication or job where people asking in good faith if we can consider arguments X, Y and Z, would be rejected so angrily and tangentially, because they had made that kind of error. It seems a bit like reacting to a memo someone gave you with a rant about how awful Helvetica 9pt is and why on earth this dimwit didn't use Times New Roman 10pt. Your attitude is kinda like that. We just get these long rants which seem much like one arguing memos should be made in serif fonts of a reasonable size. In the end, MOS just becomes an echo chamber of people who can tolerate this for one reason or another.

Wrt "I don't get the point of pillorying me when I had just come around to your position on that specific MoS issue". Imagine two friends, Bob and Alice. Alice keeps going on at Bob for taking all these foreign holidays by air and driving around in his big polluting car, and how he should travel by train or ferry or take the bike to the shops. Bob likes Alice but really hates how she keeps going on and on about this green crap. Then Bob breaks his leg so the ski holiday to Switzerland gets cancelled and his big polluting car breaks down and spends weeks in the garage awaiting repair. Has Bob suddenly become green or is it just that for other reasons, his personal climate impact this month is down? -- Colin°^Talk 15:35, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Let me try to explain just how odd restricting one's source-of-influence to Garner's is. So you change your mind about how to write about suicide. Your friend asks what made you change your mind? Did the Samaritans publish new some advice on writing about suicide? No. Did the World Health Organisation write an article you just read about it? No. Did you read a book about mental health and society's attitude towards it? No. Did you watch some really persuasive Ted Talk? No. Then what persuaded you? My mate Bryan. And what's his qualification for writing about mental health? Oh, none. He writes books about whether to write "may" or "can" and stuff like that. Does he have a big team to help him? No, he's his own guy with his own opinions. Did he write a lot about suicide then? No. His book is 1200 pages long, with 7000 entries and this is just one sentence in one entry. Oh. And what's Bryan's attitude towards language? Oh, he's very conservative. He'll only recommend a new form or change of advice once it is utterly established. Can you give me an example. Well, the suicide language is a good one. Bryan notes that other style guides have recommended against "commit suicide" since about the year 2000. So did he write about it in his second edition in 2003? No. The third edition in 2009? No. The fourth edition in 2016? No. The fifth edition in 2023? Bingo. But if Bryan only recommends things that other people have been doing and recommending for, like, a quarter of a century, surely that change must appear in lots of publications that don't adhere to Bryan's advice. Yes, Bryan is ultimately influenced by people who ignore him. He's a odd fellow that Bryan. He sure is.

Wikipedia is the world's biggest online encyclopaedia, written by anyone who wants to turn up and type something. It will therefore naturally be a source of contemporary English and ultimately be exactly the sort of publication that influences some future Garner's. Garner's represents a conservative baseline, deviations from which (or issues he doesn't even consider) can and should be permissible. -- Colin°^Talk 16:48, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

On the first part, fair enough, and I apologize for insiting that my offended interpretation was the only one. Garner's is not the only source of influence on MoS, it's just the first one to change on this point which is influential on MoS, but it may be sufficient along with other usage-shift analysis to get another RfC on this question to go your way. Me pointing out that MoS is based almost entirely on particular sources, and that even in the rare cases when MoS consensus discussions collectively decide to move beyond them because they seem to be updated too slow on some particular point, we then turn to aggregate analysis of what all the RS are doing, and don't turn to language-formation advocacy (other than as individual data points in that analysis), is not me being wrong or committing a wrong, nor is it tangential, or angry (maybe a little tired out from perennial rehash), nor is it being "conservative" even in the obsolete sense of 'preservationist' (you don't see me advocating against singular-they despite that being a bugbear of actual traditional usage preservationists; I was one of the earliest supporters of its use here because the actual fact-based evidence of its use, including in quality writing, goes back centuries).

That some editors won't listen and keep pushing their advocacy position anyway necessitates repeating pretty often how MoS change actually works. I'm sure that's irritating to people trying to get their desired change desite how MoS change actually works, but I don't see a way around that. You can keep labelling it "dismissive out of hand" if you want to, I guess, but that would seem to make all disagreement "dismissive". And activistic PoV pushing should be dismissed, frankly – because it is PoV pushing, not because it comes from a class called "activists". "Activist" or "advocate" is essntially synonymous with "pushing a PoV in deeply held good faith". We wouldn't have WP:ADVOCACY and WP:ACTIVISM and WP:GREATWRONGS and WP:TRUTH and WP:NOT#SOAPBOX if activism was okay in our content or as a prime mover of our P&G wording. The entire rationale that how WP writes a sentence, within the bounds of well-accepted English usage, has some deep connection to anyone's "mental health" is itself another advocacy position, that most editors are unlikely to accept. It's one closely related to the notion (a far-left one that even a lot of far leftists don't hold, and one that I also know a lot of mental-health professional don't hold except in a personal-experiential conteoxt) that "offensiveness" or "harm" are solely defined by the reader/listener. As I've written elsewhere, that idea is often very useful in therapy and other individual contexts, but has no relation to broad social interaction; we don't get to punish people for "violence" or "harm" we feel is done to us if it is not defined as such more objectively by a law (or here a site policy, or whatever social rule system is applicable), and such systems can't really account for idiolect definitions of "offensive", "harm", "affects my mental health", etc. Cf. debates about the notion of triggers and trigger warnings; there's very little real-world traction on this except with regard to some things that are regarded as triggers for large classes of people, because literally anything can be a trigger for someone; it's another idiolect definitional matter that doesn't work at the social level.

Your Bob and Alice bit isn't actually analogous or really addressing the question why be vindictive toward someone who's come around your position, and it going right back to the device of casting one party as a conservative who hates SJW stuff just re-raises the suspicion that the language I objected in your VPPOL posts was meant to imply what it seemed to imply. "[WP] will therefore naturally be a source of contemporary English and ultimately be exactly the sort of publication that influences some future Garner's": If you follow a lot of MoS and related (e.g. RM) discussions closely, you'll find that this is a concern more than a positive (cf. WP:CIRCULAR; we sometimes have to go to some lengths to ensure that that some allelged norm (e.g. capitalization of a particular term) isn't based on evidence that has been "poisoned" by Wikipedia itself over-capitalizing the term for several years in our article on the topic, leading other writers to pick up the capitalization as "the right way to do it because WP said so". This can sometimes been seen in Ngram results, where capitalization shoots upward markedly the year of the year after our publication. This effect is a reason that WP should be slow to adopt alleged language changes, instead of being (even unwittingly) a force for their activism. Anyway, I don't want you to feel like I 100% disagreeing reflexively. You took the time to write out a lot of material, and I'll re-read it again later and think on it more. Sometimes things like this end up affecting my approach, but only after I've mulled over them for a while.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:07, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Wrt "this question to go your way", I may be wrong but I thought you called me out on having a winner/loser mindset to all this. I didn't participate at the RFC on "commit suicide" and IIRC have become drawn into through WAID asking for opinions. I can see why people might be offended by it, but importantly, I don't feel I need to personally be so persuaded such that I'm offended myself. I don't think offense is rational, and anyone who argues a word is or isn't offensive based on their own etymology research or that it was OK when they learned English at school, is being foolish. Why is "coloured" offensive but "of colour" not? Why are some four letter words offensive and others aren't. Why if I abbreviate "Pakistani" to the first four letters, is it the second most offensive word in British English, but if I shorten "Australian" to "Aussie" that's just fine? There's nothing inherent in those four letters that makes it bad. It is bad, really terribly bad, for other reasons. I can see that authorities I respect discourage "commit suicide" and I know my own limitations as someone with absolutely no experience treating clinical mental health issues or writing about them or studying the social effect of the language we use on whether people get the help they need (for example, that suicide is a crime and a sin against God in some countries, stops people reaching out for help to healthcare or even to their own families). If asked for my opinion a while back, I'd not have one. But MOS and VPP and others places encourage people with no opinion and no understanding to give one. As someone once said, these forums encourage those on the left side of the Dunning–Kruger curve.

You keep using the word "activists" to describe people I think know what they are talking about, or who know a whole lot more than me or you. Btw the shortcuts you cite are not about word choice. And GREATWRONGS is not about people wanting Wikipedia to be better for social reasons, even if some editors use that shortcut as a hammer to hit others with when they disagree. Go read it. It is about people wanting our articles to contain facts that are not prevalent in reliable sources. We make Wikipedia accessible, to some degree, to blind people and we consider the issues of colour blindness when creating charts and diagram, to pick just two examples. Both of those are examples where the vast majority of editors are having to make allowances for people that aren't like them. Nobody claims Wikipedia must be among the last publications to be accessible. We decide, for ourselves, that accessibility is important, and agree with compromises about what steps to make. And do read ADVOCACY and ACTIVISM. It is fine to come to Wikipedia with an opinion about how it might be made better. It only crosses a line when that is "at the expense of Wikipedia's goals and core content policies" and when editors fail to "cooperate, collaborate, and compromise". Writing "killed himself" is not at the expense of Wikipedia's goals and core content policies, and editors on both sides of that argument have behaved badly (whether mass edits, mass reverts, or watchlisting articles to ensure their wordchoice persists for eternity).

Again, I ask you to consider each time you write "MOS does" or "Wikipedia is" whether you are really just projecting your own opinions or at best the echo chamber viewpoint that has come about in MOS, but isn't necessarily representative of the wider editor community, or desirable, or founded on any core policy or pillar. You say editors keep coming to Wikipedia with wrongheaded views that you have to keep correcting. I don't know, that could be telling you something different from "and this is why I must continue to do that, and keep doing all the lecturing".

It seems you think anyone with a motivated opinion about language change is an "activist" and only writers who merely analyse usage trends over the years have your ear. Let me try another analogy then, to explain why I think your approach is so, well, odd.

Bob and Alice are both doctors. Alice subscribes to the BMJ and NEJM. She reads the latest guidelines from NICE and the health service and international bodies. She's got her own opinions about what works in her patients, but is open to the experts changing their view on what is a first-line medication. Her drug choices aren't always cheap. She feels really bad that one of her patients died of an adverse reaction to a new drug that was soon after withdrawn.

Bob doesn't waste his money on the BMJ and NEJM. Nor does he waste his time listening to the busybodies at NICE, who are probably all drug company shills anyway, and who pay too much heed to patient group activists. He is outraged at the price of modern medicines, which just goes into shareholder's pockets. So he only prescribes generic drugs. If they are good enough that someone makes them after the patent has run out, that's good enough for me. And when he has a choice of what to prescribe, he's got his own method. He downloads the pharmaceutical sales stats for the last 20 years. And picks the drug, for that condition, with the most sales. The wisdom of the crowds. Clever eh? His patients have more heart attacks and don't live so long after getting cancer, but at least he hasn't killed one of his patients, unlike reckless Alice.

Bob's approach kinda works. His prescribing isn't wrong but it isn't optimal. And if everyone did what Bob did, there'd be no new medicines.

I hear your argument about circularity. But that's only really a problem if your basis of word choice is on algorithmic word usage, like Bob. It is like Bob being concerned that Alice prescribing Wonderpam today, just because the bloody activists at NICE claim it should be first line, means he'll have to prescribe Wonderpam in ten years time. Maybe the problem isn't Alice's following what the experts think, but Bob using a dumb algorithm.

-- Colin°^Talk 09:03, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Agreed on the idea of inherent "offensiveness" of particular strings/sounds, and that it's the intent that matters. It is fine to come to Wikipedia with an opinion about how it might be made better. It only crosses a line when that is "at the expense of Wikipedia's goals and core content policies" and when editors fail to "cooperate, collaborate, and compromise". Sure, my entire point can be boiled down to: having your opinion is very different from trying to inject it at all costs and against all other views into our content and our policy-formation, because that is at the expense of WP's NPoV goal and core policy; and that trying to paint other editors as conservative anti-woke agitators for not 100% agreeing with you has the opposite effect from "cooperate, collaborate, and compromise". (Even if you personally didn't really do that, others do it to me all the time, most especially on other matters of langauge reform advocacy – more than in all other topics combined.)

If I use "MoS and WP does/is/won't/will" kind of wording, it's based on experience, and perhaps a little on some persuasive writing advice to avoid constructions that invite doubt and opposition, like "I think that", and "In my opnion". Everyone already understands that everyone's posts here are just their opnion, since none of us are omnicient. Maybe it's a style that some people find annoying, but every argument technique is probably annoying to someone, and it would have to be annoying more people than it persuades for it to stop being an effective tool.

The central problem here is that everyone with a reformationist idea, if you like that term better than activistic or advocacy-based or whatever, has reasons for it that they believe are valid and important, and which even a majority of our editorial pool might believe are in some case, but which are nonetheless, at present, reformationist PoVs to change current typical practice, on- and off-site. This is by definition PoV pushing, even when we mostly agree with the PoV. If and when the PoV becomes the objectively observable new off-site norm (across the kind of material we use as sources) then it's no longer what amounts to a fringe view; it is the new cultural gestalt and something we should adopt. We can figure that out either by observing changes in the style guides our own is based on, or if they're not catching up, by doing our own analysis across English-language writing (not just the reformationist material). But the reformationists want the change right now and will attack you for not giving them their way. That this kind of change actually happens off-site in the "real world" largely through the activities of advocacy/activism/reformationist bodies in the long run doesn't make them some kind of wrong, but they are those kinds of bodies. Their effect on our content and policy is actually real, it's just slow and moderated by the adoption of their recommendations by the kinds of sources we use in the aggregate, instead of WP directly adopting their advocacy stance willy-nilly despite its PoV nature.

You seem to think any organization promulgating a language-reformationist agenda is "an expert" and we should listen to them; some of them may even be experts on various things, and maybe you only meant hose, but that doesn't make them experts on how to write in quasi-formal English for the broadest possible audience, nor mean that when they advocate a primary-source opinion that they are still being secondary sources on that primary opinion. Your new Alice & Bob example is making another analogy that doesn't track, by relying on medical-efficacy research being equatable to language-change advocacy positions, despte these being pretty much in no way comparable at all. My position is also not similar to your Bob being concerned that what Alice prescribes today affects what he prescribes later; I have no actual position against "prescribing" against committed suicide (or in favor of neopronouns for that matter) in Wikipedia's own voice, within your "ten years' time", if that is what the fact-based evidence shows has become standard usage in formal-English publications.

The evidence so far suggests to me that we'll get there much sooner on suicide language, maybe this year, but maybe never on neopronouns, which people have been advocating since the 19th century with nearly no traction in mainstream publishing for a broad audience. It doesn't matter that "experts" like GLAAD and NLGJA advocate for the latter; it demonstrably is not working, and isn't even convincing to everyone deep within the LGBTQIA sphere who otherwise may be happy to agree with every single other thing those organizations say. A feeling that some particular voice is "expert" on something doesn't automagically make them right on English usage.
 — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:50, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

"it's the intent that matters". Well, it's not only the intent. But I see you are arguing about "offensive" at WAID's talk page so I don't want to get too distracted onto that matter. I'll point you at this article about an offensive cartoon. The author, should we believe him, and I don't have a reason to not, did not intend the offense. His fault was to be insensitive to the fact that a secondary subject in his cartoon was Jewish. He actually knew the guy was Jewish, but it was at the back of his mind, and so he didn't take care. He may also have been ignorant about certain tropes best avoided. As it happened, I saw the cartoon when it got published and thought it was very funny. I didn't know this man was Jewish (it certainly played no part in the news coverage of his controversy and ultimately his sacking). I'm also not sensitive/aware of all the tropes. As a political cartoonist, his job is to offend, but to offend the right people, the powerful and those promoting bad ideas.

If we had a Wikipedia RFC "Is this cartoon offensive?" and a whole bunch of people like me turned up, we'd probably conclude the cartoon was not offensive, other than to Johnson, who is fair game. But what if the RFC was started by a Jewish editor, who knew the man in the cartoon was Jewish, who was aware more than the rest of us, about the tropes. Two things would happen. Firstly, unless you wished to abbreviate your editing career on Wikipedia, you would not be attacking him for being an activist, pushing a POV. Secondly, many of us, who aren't Jewish, would know that we aren't very good at this stuff, and concede that the Jewish editor likely knew best, and it if was possible to see his point, we'd accept it.

Neither of those two things happen with most other social concerns at MOS. Mental health. Nope. Disability. Nope. Lifelong health conditions. Nope. Sexism. Nope. And so on. Those are all fair game for mocking sneering cancelling rejecting and dismissing the bloody activist causing trouble.

I get that a trick of persuasive writing is to write as though your belief really is how it is, and up to anyone else to disagree. But can be dishonest. It is fine for MOS, say, to write in that style. I don't accept for a moment that "Everyone already understands that everyone's posts here are just their opnion" If I write that NPOV is a core policy, that's me asserting a fact, not an opinion. When you write that MOS only accept the authority of certain style guides, and never accepts these others, which are written by activists, you are asserting a fact. Not everyone at MOS is as long in the tooth as you and me, so no, I don't think most people will pick up that this is just SMcCandlish's personal opinion.

I don't think everyone promoting language change is an expert and I'm sure some of them are talking out of their backsides. Some matters, like how we write about someone with epilepsy, say, are not everyday concerns, and are not known about by most people. AFAICS, Garner's 4th edition does not mention it. The Guardian Style Guide pithily says "Seizures are epileptic, people are not", warns against reducing people to their medical condition, and expresses a preference for "seizure" rather than "fit". I know you take a dim view of newspaper style guides, and I've heard your arguments already, but on this matter, I see no reason to dismiss their concerns out of hand like you would. They concur with Epilepsy Society. I frankly find it as offensive to dismiss their opinions as if you had dismissed the opinions of black people about what constitutes a racist term, and banged on about how we should only listen to some old white man in a university.

Most of Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch is not about this kind of language, despite the title sounding like it should. Most of MOS is not about this kind of language concern. For example, when MEDMOS advises writers to avoid words like "patients" (unless writing about people actually lying in intensive care, say) it is because they often do, because they pick up the language of our sources, which are written by doctors to doctors about how to take care of their patients. Our readers are not doctors treating their patients (well, they are, but that's another problem) but the general public.

It is clear you think you are in a battle, and you do use a lot of battleground language and style, where your arguments are expressed as weapons to attack and utterly dismiss your opponents. As you say with your comment on avoiding "I think that", there's no room in your argument for giving an inch. But I'm concerned about your idea that I cannot be furiously in disagreement with you because now you happen to think perhaps "commit suicide" is maybe not so good after all. There are people at MOS who are dismissive of all this leftist wokery language police crap because of their politics (or because they are the sort of person who cannot accept criticism, of which there are many, and who think therefore that because they are a good person, anyone saying they wrote something bad is clearly wrong entirely on the basis that this wasn't their own idea). So I wonder if the problem is that you find yourself fighting alongside them and supporting them and can't imagine attacking what they just wrote, because it doesn't help "your side".

Another problem I see is your conflation of policy and guideline wrt facts and what are writing about with what words to pick when doing so. Circularity is a particular problem with the former because we are utterly beholden to our sources for them. So if someone makes up a fact on Wikipedia and that gets copied to a "reliable source" we may find it hard to remove that "fact". Our WEIGHT is supposed to be in proportion to our sources, and that may hold to some degree within an article, but I suspect the number of articles we have on the Marvel Cinematic Universe, say, is out of proportion to the learned literature on cinema and isn't influencing such literature to write more. I really don't see writing "killed himself" or "John developed epilepsy in childhood" rather than "committed suicide" or "John became an epileptic" as some kind of NPOV violation you seem to think it is. We are not reliant our our sources for the words we use, no more than all of us who are readers and who communicate with others, are influenced in our word choices by what we read and hear throughout our lives.

Another issue I have is frankly amateurish use by some of google searches and ngrams to debate what words to pick. They have some value but this kind of original research is usually an embarrassment to witness. Take "commit suicide" for example. I can look up how often that term is used. But I can't search for it not being used. And while there are some terse alternatives I might try searching for instead, there are also wordier ways of talking about it that I can't. Same with "John became an epileptic after a car accident" vs "John first started having seizures.." or "After his car accident, John developed epilepsy" or any of numerous other ways of doing it. If next week, the UK decided to debate and introduce an assisted dying bill to parliament, that would spark a huge increase in the number of publications discussing suicide. It might actually increase the number of publications writing "commit suicide" even if the overall trend was to avoid that. Indeed, I could imagine some MP saying "commit suicide" and being asked not to, and kicking up a culture war about it, and where most of the uses of that term were actually critical of it. We've already seen how trans issues have exploded in term of coverage, with some newspapers writing several stories a day about this tiny portion of the population. It all just smells too much like Bob's algorithm for drug selection.

I find it really odd this idea that a living contemporary encyclopaedia, written by just anyone, must not only wait for nearly every other publication to have shifted in their language usage, but then wait for some old guy to write the next edition of their book (release cycle 7 years), and to find the subject of worth (e.g., epilepsy clearly isn't). What I found so amusing the other day, was the explicit admission in that source that they've only got round to writing about something other guides have noted since about the year 2000. That Wikipedia, to use this standard, would therefore tend to be a quarter of a century behind the curve. I know you find that idea a useful weapon against people you view as activists, but maybe we aren't at war, and should find a more collaborative, compromising and cooperative way of discussing these issues. -- Colin°^Talk 12:13, 29 July 2023 (UTC)

I suspected it would eventually come down to this: "attacking him for being an activist". Activist, advocate, activism, advocacy, and related terms are not attacks, they are observations of behavior (and often of expressed intent) of advancing a particular viewpoint for (good-faith) societal-change reasons. I read the entire Rowson piece. "As a visual artist operating in a genre dependent on exaggeration and mockery, I also swim in a swamp being constantly fed with poisonous slurry" and "What I do in my work is a twisted and dreadful magic". Rowson is operating at an extreme, like a stand-up comedian. That doesn't seem to relate much to what we do, which is summarizing reliable source material in language that is based on what is recommended by academic style guides and/or reflected in the vast majority of modern RS writing. So this seems to me another poor analogy. Not every situation where someone says they are offended is directly comparable. "Seizures are epileptic, people are not" is probably also covered in Scientific Style and Format or some other work MoS is based on, but if it's not it's another case where doing our own usage survey across recent RS material, as best we can do one, is the appropriate community response, not just taking a particular advocate's word for it – if (as in the case of suicide-related language and in the case of neopronous) a site-wide dispute erupts about it. If there is no such community turmoil, there is nothing stopping anyone from tweaking our language to be what they feel is more sensitive. I do this myself, e.g. changing "albinos" (in reference to people) to "people with albinism" and similar language, because I know this is preferred by NOAH and other albinism-related organizations. If what I'm doing did turn into a huge brawl, I would certainly expect to have to produce more evidence than "NOAH says so" (i.e. the advocates say so). "some kind of NPOV violation you seem to think it is" – So, clearly I don't think it is, for an editor to make such adjustments to particular article text. What is an NPoV problem is depending heavily or only on advocacy materials to try to force WP to make an official across-the-board change to suit a particular world-view about language. Prove that actual usage has changed, across the kinds of sources we use, not just that someone somewhere wishes there would be a change.

"as if you had dismissed the opinions of black people" = another broken analogy. "some old white man in a university" – Why does someone at a univerisity have to be male, old, and white? I think even phrasing this in such a way is just the kind of offensive assumption you're railing against. Googling around, the average age of professors in the US is about 46, and there's nearly a 50/50 male/female split (in stats that don't account for alternative genders; could drill down for detail somewhere); there is a major racial divide, but not as sharp as people think – about 65% white, but in a general population with a white contingent of about 75%, so minorities are actually gaining ground in American academia. (The numbers to be most concerned with are probably that about 13–14% of the US population are African-American, but only about 7% of the professors, so there's still clearly a systemic racism effect at work.)

"[We] pick up the language of our sources", yes, in the aggregate, not cherry-picked to agree with our politics. "you do use a lot of battleground language and style, where your arguments are expressed as weapons to attack and utterly dismiss your opponents" – That's your own subjective characterization. I'm pretty careful to avoid doing that in actuality, but maybe you have particular diffs in mind? 'I'm concerned about your idea that I cannot be furiously in disagreement with you because now you happen to think perhaps "commit suicide" is maybe not so good after all.' I don't hold that idea, and we're clearly having your "furious disagreement". My idea was more narrowly that going after me specifically for coming around to your side was counterproductive in the discussion in which that happened. "There are people at MOS who are dismissive of all this leftist wokery language police crap because of their politics" – Like who? (Shoot me an email if you don't want to mention them on-wiki.) The rare time I ever see anyone like that pop up they get shouted down very quickly.

I agree that Ngrams are not the be-all, end-all tool for such matters, and can easily be misused. They're useful in certani kinds of cases (e.g. capitalization versus lower case) when used properly, but have severe limitations. Wikipedia will always be behind the progressive-activism curve on language usage, because the sources we rely on will be. That may be frustrating to some people, but it's just true. WP isn't on the bleeding edge of any kind of language change/reform activity. I could get hit by a bus and squished 5 minutes from now, and it would remain true, no matter how much you think I'm wielding "influence" over the matter. Some of these discussions I just don't enter. Sometimes I take a wikibreak for a long time (once for about a year) and things don't magically change in my absence. I won't keel over and die if you keep scapegoating me, but it's a lot of misspent attention.
 — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:27, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm struggling a bit to understand your dismissal of the Rowson piece, just because he's got quite a different job. I gave the example as one where "it's the intent that matters" isn't the whole story. If Wikipedia articles could not cause offense provided the editor never meant it, then we could just ask the editor "Did you mean to cause offense?" and quickly resolve the matter. And the example is one where the subject matter (antisemitism) would not be so casually dismissed, I think, than issues of offense in other domains. Rowson's job is not relevant to that.

what we do, which is summarizing reliable source material in language that is based on what is recommended by academic style guides and/or reflected in the vast majority of modern RS writing. Here's the thing. That isn't what we do. Neither in practice nor in Wikipedia:About nor in any of our polices or five pillars. It is what you think we should be doing. And that belief brings you into a religious conflict with anyone who suggest we might do something that hasn't been around for a quarter century already because they think it would make Wikipedia better.

Even if that claim were true, writing "John died in October 2005. His suicide..." doesn't break any style guide whatsoever. The reader doesn't even spot what they don't see, which is that "commit suicide" wasn't used. So it can't possibly be advocacy or activism within the article text content itself. I get that line can be crossed with extremely novel language like the neopronouns, but it isn't crossed by just writing something a different way. This is why I think the arguments against avoiding "commit suicide" are egregious and POINTy and themselves quite extremist activism. Why anyone wants to spend their short life on earth monitoring a page to ensure it causes some people offense is beyond me.

The "some old white man in a university" is a reference to Bryan A. Garner. Correct me if I'm wrong about those adjectives.

Labelling someone an activist can be an attack, because there's an implication such people are not wanted at all on Wikipedia and should end up being blocked. That anyone who advances "a particular viewpoint for (good-faith) societal-change reasons" is labelled and dismissed is concerning to me. And it doesn't surprise me at all that you find yourself then confused with those who are actively opposed to societal-change. I don't know if "useful idiot" is the appropriate term for this, but I can see how people opposed to such change absolutely love you despite you not sharing their values.

You write "I do this myself, e.g. changing "albinos" (in reference to people) to "people with albinism" and similar language, because I know this is preferred by NOAH and other albinism-related organizations" So that, em, makes you a language change activist pushing to change the language in our articles for societal-change reasons, unsupported by Garner (4th edition says "albino. Pl. albinos. See plurals (D)"). You seem to be suggesting then it only becomes a problem if there was "a huge brawl". But really I am not seen a difference here between you and all the people you dismiss. Just that em, you picked a safer subject? Or you weren't stupid enough to ask for permission or stupid enough to mass edit quickly. -- Colin°^Talk 16:10, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Rowson's operating in a realm of content that intentionally skirts very close to the edge of offensiveness limits (pretty much all of them, for a good, wide-ranging comedian). It's just not akin to our content realm. You keep seeming miss the point of what I'm writing. Me using "people with albinism" isn't an activism problem because no one is pushing back against it. If it leads to a dispute and I insist over and over and over again that I'm right no matter how many editors disagree with me, all because a particular organization I like said so and I have a socio-politico-cultural reason in my head that tells me I and the advocacy group are right, that would make it an activism problem. What I'm doing with "albino" isn't against a clear RfC consensus result. "[The line] isn't crossed by just writing something a different way"; right, it's crossed by, e.g., trying to force everyone to write the way you'd like them to, for politicized reasons, against a broader consensus that doesn't agree with you. "Labelling someone an activist can be an attack, because there's an implication such people are not wanted at all on Wikipedia" is just you inferring a meaning/intent/rationale/cause out of nowhere. It's more "harm is entirely defined in the mind of the alleged victim" thinking, and a confusion (literally by definition) of implication and inferrence. We have pages at WP:ACTIVISM and WP:ADVOCACY and more succinctly at WT:NOT#SOAPBOX and WP:NOT#BATTLEGROUND that make it clear how and when activism/advocacy become a problem here (in more ways than the one we're discussing). And I'm not "dismissing" anyone on this; I've read and read these reasons, and re-examined evidence, and come around to your side on the "suicide" language. But I'm also not going to go around changing such language in articles right now (I'm not going to become an activist-abusing-Wikipedia about it), because consensus is against presently against this specific kind of textual change, so I'm going to wait for an opportunity to inject my opinion, along with yours, that the consensus should change. There is an old saying for a good reason that it's better/safer to ask for forgiveness than permission. See WP:CREEP and WP:MOSBLOAT for why the community tends to react toward the negative side to attempts to add more rules to MoS. Maybe it's not always "fair", in some idealized sense, but it is real and has to be accounted for. PS: Picking on Garner for his age, sex, and ethnicity is a red herring. It's only one of the MoS-core style guides and which ever one moved first on this would have been enough to sway my opinion (and probably that of other stop-changing-MoS-willy-nilly editors); at least two-thirds of the editorship of Chicago Manual (another MoS building block) are female (dunno about race/age); we don't know much about the makeup of the other academic style guides' editorial boards so don't make assumptions about them; and Garner's in recent editions is more and more evidence-based, so it ultimately wouldn't matter whether it was written by him or by a Hispanic young woman or by large pool of editors or by an AI. (Large pool of editors in the short term would probably be better; I think they would have caught on to the "albino" shift by now.)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  08:19, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

I don't know if you had noticed, but in CMOS17 (17th edition and also published in 2017), the relevant chapter on language use was entirely written by Bryan Garner. (It does not appear to mention suicide.) As a result, if we were to have a rule that CMOS and Garner's must both agree on word use before the MOS could countenance something, we are basically saying that, out of all the 8 billion people in the world, a single 64-year-old white American professor gets to decide what the MOS should say. While I personally love his book, this is not the kind of situation that is going to sound reasonable to anyone.

Also, while I don't recall off hand any disputes (of any type) around albinism, the change you are making converts the text to people-first language, and we have seen disputes around that. People-first language has been endorsed in Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Medicine-related articles with a few exceptions (e.g., Deaf people [but not necessarily for people who just happen to be deaf], autistic adults [but not necessarily children with autism], blind people) for years now, but it is imperfectly implemented. I'm aware of one such discussion happening this week about people-first language. (I've not joined; there are enough cooks looking at that soup that adding any more would be pointless at best, and more realistically, be harmful.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:29, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

For purposes like this, I basically treat CMoS and Garner's as a single source since they share a lead editor. (Fowler's and New Hart's/Oxford are also edited and published with some synchrony between them, though different named lead editors, so a change in one is probably good enough to take for a change in the other.) I'm not surprised there is debate about people-first, since it's a change the language, outside WP, is still undergoing.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  15:45, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Is it? It's been recommended since the 1980s and has been widely accepted for at least the last 20 years. The recent debates are about people asserting that their so-called disability is their identity, so that calling them Autistic is already people-first in spirit. Nobody recommends disability-first in principle. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:30, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Just popping in briefly. I'm still in holiday mode. I do encourage you to follow the SHORTCUTs you link and read them. I don't see (language) conservative activism as any different from other kinds of activism, and I think that you make the same mistake most activists make, in thinking (and loudly declaring) it is just the other guys who are activists.

I agree there are good reasons not to bloat MOS. I also think that whenever anyone is unwise enough to suggest "I think we should write X rather than Y" and get a solid "no" response, that many conservative activists interpret this as though the RFC approved "I think we should write Y rather than X" or "If the article currently says Y, this must never be changed until the heat death of the universe". So, like that saying about court rooms, don't ask a question you don't already know the answer to. I also think the toxic atmosphere to MOS language discussions tends to put off editors who are more reasonable or considerate. They know these things generate lengthy hostile posts and accusations of activism flung around, and decide it isn't worth getting involved.

I don't get your excuse for why albino/albinism isn't your very own social-reasons ahead-of-the-rest-of-the-world progressive language change. I did a quick google, and even The Guardian gets this one wrong in some articles. And Garner's 4th edition gets it wrong. The phrase "leg to stand on" comes to mind, wrt all the reasons you would attack someone else for making a similar change or proposal. As I said, I think you got lucky. We don't have hundreds of biographical articles that need to mention that subject. I did a quick search and found 'moved Persecution of albinos to Persecution of albinism: Many people with albinism consider "albino" to be a slur."' which was met with resistance at Talk:Persecution of people with albinism#Title and reverted. Your edit summary and post on the talk page have exactly the same hallmarks as anyone else making social language change edits. You don't cite your holy books, perhaps because you know they support the "albino" version. You compare that term with better known offensive words. I'm sure you are well aware that the word "albino" appears in formal writing in scientific journals as well as broadsheet newspapers, as a descriptive for a people group/person, whereas "spick", "gimps" or "tard" would not. And your claim it is "considered offensive" would result in a torrent of people "educating" you about WP:NOTCENSORED. Furthermore, your first attempt at a rename, which was rightly criticised for being grammatically nonsensical, would, if done by a newbie today, result in mocking their lack of writing ability.

The only reason that didn't develop into a big fight with conservatives determined that Wikipedia must offend or must forever use words they learned in school despite now being considered offensive, is so few people watched or cared about that page. -- Colin°^Talk 15:06, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

FYI

Amanda A. Brant has an undisclosed alt on the Norwegian Wikipedia, Zealing. One account edits enwiki, then the other account lobbies for parallel changes on nowiki. You can see this in action at no:Diskusjon:TERF. gnu57 22:48, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Epilepsy related?

Automatic behavior needs (at least) a copyedit. It ties into epilepsy, but I'm not sure how much. Also, I haven't even glanced at the sources. I don't know if it's a popular article, but I thought you might know more about it than I do. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:46, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

WhatamIdoing I'm not sure what to do about it. It appears to be a student project from John Abbott College/Mind-Body (Winter) 2022. Not sure it warranted a separate article page from Automatism (medicine). Perhaps they should be merged. Wrt the epilepsy section, they use two sources. The O'Sullivan book is a lay one and I've read and enjoyed one of their other books. Although not a textbook, I've no reason to believe it wouldn't be reliable for what they used it. The other sources is a bit vaguely cited but possibly this which I don't have access to. Certainly a reliable source though possibly a bit more specific/precise than warranted for the topic. I don't know more about the topic than this kind of general description gives and this kind of brief overview. It is possible that there isn't much more to say than that, for a general encyclopaedia. -- Colin°^Talk 09:26, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. You know more about this than I do. I'll propose a merge. WhatamIdoing (talk) 14:47, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Do you think they learned anything ?

Gee, lookie there, the unnecessary CT was never once used and wasn't needed; I wonder why? I'm sorry to have missed the discussion, but it's probably for the best, as I would not have been able to contain the ... well, d'oh reaction. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:21, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Well I suppose we didn't know a certain person would go as far as to fork Wikipedia in order to continue to fill the internet with spurious prices and misleading dosage information. Remember the The International Medical Products Price Guide Still not updated since 2015. Colin°^Talk 14:17, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Right-o. Are you still up to snuff on the Featured list pages ? Or do you know who is the most informed over there these days? I'm trying to resolve a split of a table to a separate article, and may want to confer with the cognoscenti. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:54, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Not been involved in that for well over a decade. -- Colin°^Talk 16:27, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Notice of Arbitration Enforcement noticeboard discussion

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a report involving you at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement regarding a possible violation of an Arbitration Committee decision. The thread is Colin. Thank you. Loki (talk) 03:58, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Jubilee or Munin

I have just returned from London and a visit to The Tower. Either Jubilee or Munin (not sure which) landed on the bench nearby and seemed to wish you well. ―Buster7 ☎ 08:37, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

User:Buster7 that's a weird coincidence. They were POTD on Commons yesterday (here) and I saw them when I opened the Wikipedia app on my phone. I didn't know the Wikipedia app showed Commons POTD. It was nice to see them again as they make me smile. Thanks for the message. -- Colin°^Talk 10:23, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

OMG!!! What a congruence of circumstances. What is this called? Happenstance? Serendipity? For these seemingly un-connected things to come together, on the same day, defies belief. I've tried to use this "pre-awareness" thingy to pick the winning Lotto numbers. No luck yet! ―Buster7 ☎ 10:55, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Open Knowledge

Colin, you gotta take a look at this thread; I could be completely off, but it's ringing bells. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:46, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

maybe a different org ?? [23] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:39, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

SandyGeorgia not sure what the link is other than a similar name. -- Colin°^Talk 16:49, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

I was wondering if someone with more knowledge of the institutions would be able to figure out if there is in fact a deeper link between the two ... because of the red flags ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:57, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

I think SV did most of the "follow the money" digging, but they are no longer with us. I was more concerned with the videos than with the company. -- Colin°^Talk 17:06, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Ah yes ... that was the sort of thing she was good at ... I misremembered, and thought it was you. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:11, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

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Apparently you haven't gotten one of these yet

You have recently made edits related to gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them. This is a standard message to inform you that gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them is a designated contentious topic. This message does not imply that there are any issues with your editing. For more information about the contentious topics system, please see Wikipedia:Contentious topics. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 15:32, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Happy Holidays

Peace is a state of balance and understanding in yourself and between others, where respect is gained by the acceptance of differences, tolerance persists, conflicts are resolved through dialog, people's rights are respected and their voices are heard, and everyone is at their highest point of serenity without social tension. Happy Holidays to you and yours. ―Buster7 ☎

Parkinson's

I've followed that page for over a decade, but the faulty copyright understanding, and the fixation on that image, are more than I can handle right now. I lost two of my three dearest friends within hours of each other this week, am broken and planning two funerals, and the lax attitude towards copyright at the talk page discussions is not something I can cope with right now. No one there understands copyright, and yet, they continue to upload images ... rather than inquiring first of those who do know how to deal with images. I will probably unwatch anyway-- no one there except HAL333 seems interested in fixing the severe content issues anyway, so I don't know why I still care. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:05, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

:Thank you for your excellent understanding and description about other Wikipedian. --Dustfreeworld (talk) 22:41, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Your Ngrams example

Here is fantastic and immediately crystallizes something stupid about that common reasoning, that was otherwise hard to put my finger on. Thank you for the example. I'm sure I'll have opportunity to reference it all too soon. Ajpolino (talk) 20:04, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Merry Christmas

~ ~ ~ Merry Christmas! ~ ~ ~

Hello Colin: Enjoy the holiday season and winter solstice if it's occurring in your area of the world, and thanks for your work to maintain, improve and expand Wikipedia. Cheers, --Dustfreeworld (talk) 12:23, 25 December 2023 (UTC)