Talk:Mus'ab ibn al-Zubayr

Date of Birth

Hi Al Ameer son, thanks for adding info on his early life. Can you find anything on his birth year or place of birth in the sources you've just added? AhmadLX-)¯\_(ツ)_/¯) 15:22, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

@AhmadLX: I couldn't find anything about his date of birth. From the Ibn Sa'd source I only have snippet access, not sure if he mentions his birth year or age at death. I did add find little gems about his early life, including his youth studies with Abd al-Malik. In all likelihood, Mus'ab was born in Medina. His elder brother Abd Allah was born in the city and all indications are that Mus'ab spent his life there until being assigned to Iraq. But alas we have no source that explicitly says it was his birthplace. The Elad source contains a lot of information about Mus'ab's descendants during the Abbasid era, by the way. This might be useful later. Al Ameer (talk) 16:10, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

Sukayna bint Husayn

@Tubi719: The sources you cited are non-RS, but they say the exact opposite of what you say. This one says:

Some historians mention that she planned to marry her cousin Kassem Ben Al Hassan but he was killed with his father before the wedding; she then married Musa’ab Ben Al-Zoubair."

The other one says:

"Historically speaking, in Karbala she had been around 11 years old. According to Tabari, Ibn Khallekan, Ibn Athir and many other historians she died in the year 117 A.H."

and it further says

"There is again a common mistake among people that Sakina died in the prison in Damascus . They also mistakenly hold that she was not more than 5 years old."

Whether she married Hasan's son before Mus'ab is irrelevant to this article. Your claims that "she was 5 years old when she died" and "she only married Hasan's son" are groundless. I suspect you don't read sources that you cite. Go read or ask someone who actually knows history, before returning back for edit war. Hope that helps. --AhmadLX-(Wikiposta) 17:05, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

@AhmadLX: The source which I have mentioned says that:

"Imam Husain had two daughters. Fatima, and Sakina the younger one. When Hassan Mothanna, her cousin asked for the hand of Sakina in marriage, Imam Husain suggests Fatima, the older one, the reason being ‘I suggest Fatima who resembles my mother more. She is such a worshipping girl that most of the nights she prays and most of the days she is fasting. And about Sakina, she is engrossed with the Divine beauty of God and hence is not ready to marry anyone at this stage.' 4

However, she married later, her other cousin Abdullah Akbar, son of Imam Hassan, who was apparently martyred in Karbala."

See it here:The role of Women in Karbala'

Also you have quoted that Sakina didn't died at prison of Damascus and was not five years old when she died. Hussain had three daughters i.e. Sakinah bint Hussain (Fatima al-kubra), second one Fatima bint Hussain (Fatima al-sughra) and the youngest one Ruqqayah (also known as Sakinah). The last daughter of Hussain, Ruqyyah (Sakina) died at the the age of 5 in prison of Damascus, not the eldest daughter Sakina (Fatima al-kubra). This is what the source is trying to say. At first there was confusion between the elder and youngest daughter of Hussain as both had same names. Ruqqayah was never married and died at the age of 5 in Damascus, whereas Sakinah the eldest one was married to Hassan's son Abdullah as satetd by the source. Moreover the other source that you have mentioned sate that Some historions have satetd that she was married to Mus'ab, but not all of them. Therefore this matter is disputed. Al Mufid (Shaykh Mufid) in Al-Irshaad (book) have denied this marriage of Sakina to Mus'ab. Also Al-Baladhuri in Ansaab ul ashraaf (Baladhuri, Ansab al-ashraf , vol. 2, p. 195) and Qadi Nuaman in Sharh al-Akhbar (Maghribi, Sharḥ al-akhbār, vol. 3, p. 180-181) mentioned that Sakina was married to Hasan's son Abdullah. Ibn e Hazam in Ansaab ul Arab also states the same and the list goes on. Therefore it is also important to meniton these references and this matter which a disputed one should be mentioned as disputed in the article. You should state the belief of both sects. If you want to say anything else, please inform me on my talk page. Thanks User:Tubi719

@Tubi719: There is still the WP:RS issue which AhmadLX had touched on. I urge you to find a published secondary source to use instead of what you had previously cited. Google Books would be a good place to start looking.
Alivardi (talk) 14:41, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

Firs off, As I said before, her marriage to Hasan's son doesn't concern us here. Whether she married him or not, is relevant to article on her and on the son of Hasan. So please don't divert the subject. Also, as I said before, these are blog-like sites written by people like you and me, and do not constitute WP:RS. That mathaba.net article contradicts itself: It says she was born in 47AH and died in 60AH [sic] in the opening para. Further down, it says she died in 117AH. I quoted these article because, although they are non-RS, you skewed them and portrayed them to be supporting what they actually don't. Check RS link, read it to get sense of what RS means. Then, when you find RS that say that her death year/marriage to Mus'ab is disputed, bring those RS. RS like EI2 don't say it is disputed, so it won't be changed based on websites of dubious credibility. And again, please don't make up stories; EI2 cites Baladhuri and Abul-Faraj Isfahani for her marriage to Mus'ab. Don't create bogus claims out of thin air that Baladhuri denies this. Also, article talk page is the venue for discussion on issues related to articles. AhmadLX-(Wikiposta) 19:18, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

@Raza faiz21: I reverted your recent edits because you removed information cited to Reliable Sources. The subject of Mus'ab's marriage to Sukayna has been discussed, as you can see in this thread. Before attempting to remove this information, please discuss here first. However, nothing will likely change unless reliable sources are cited which argue for its removal or modification. Al Ameer (talk) 20:59, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Mus'ab ibn al-Zubayr/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Al Ameer son (talk · contribs) 19:19, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

I will take up this review in the next few days. Al Ameer (talk) 19:19, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for picking this up @Al Ameer son:. I will address the issues asap. AhmadLX-(Wikiposta) 23:30, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

• Remove the calligraphic spelling of his name from the infobox. I see these in a lot of articles. They serve no purpose and are basically user-generated decoration (no encyclopedic value).

Agreed. Done. AhmadLX-(Wikiposta) 03:18, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

• Mention that Zubayr ibn Awwam was a "prominent" or "leading" companion of Muhammad in lead, as it is stated in body.

Done. AhmadLX-(Wikiposta) 03:18, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

• I'd reconfigure the lead. It should start as Mus'ab ibn al-Zubayr was the governor of Basra in 686–691, with brief interruption, for his brother, the Mecca-based caliph (or counter-caliph if you prefer) Abd Allah ibn al-Zubayr, during the Second Fitna (or Second Islamic/Muslim Civil War if your prefer). Mus'ab was a son of Zubayr ibn Awwam, a prominent companion of the Islamic prophet Muhammad. Before becoming governor, he led an abortive (or "unsuccessful" if you prefer) campaign against Umayyad Palestine. He defeated and killed the pro-Alid revolutionary Mukhtar al-Thaqafi in 687 (perhaps link Battles of Harura and Madhar somewhere here?) and came to control the whole of Iraq. Then continue. And no need for "Arab commander", IMO.

Done. AhmadLX-(Wikiposta) 03:18, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

• "His policies in Iraq". State in brief which policies/actions got him dismissed.

This is very much ambiguous in sources. Tabari gives three versions, crux of which is that Iraqis complained to Abd Allah for some reason (reason not specified). According to Fishbein, similar is account of Baladhuri: unspecified complaints.AhmadLX-(Wikiposta) 18:53, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Lammens' funny jibes are of no help either. He just says that his "successes" in Iraq "upset" Abd Allah who then removed him.AhmadLX-(Wikiposta) 18:59, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

• Mention that the Umayyad forces were led by Caliph Abd al-Malik.

Done. AhmadLX-(Wikiposta) 03:18, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

• Just a comment: I am very tempted to assume that al-Rabab ibn Unayf, daughter of a Kalb chief, was a sister of the Kalb chief Bahdal ibn Unayf, but I need to verify that (if true).

Couldn't find in Tab. or EI2, but the Wikipedia article on al-Zubayr says, without ref, that she was a Kalbite. Perhaps Ahmed, Asad Q. (2010) has some info? AhmadLX-(Wikiposta) 03:18, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

• No need for second mention of "Islamic prophet" in Family, early life and career.

Done. AhmadLX-(Wikiposta) 03:18, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

• Drop "career" from the heading of the first section since his career is not discussed here.

Done. AhmadLX-(Wikiposta) 03:18, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

• "Except Syria" → better "Except parts of Syria"

Done. AhmadLX-(Wikiposta) 03:18, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

• Consistent spelling of Muawiyah/Mu'awiya. I know that you and I prefer to use the latter.

Yeah right, done. AhmadLX-(Wikiposta) 03:18, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

• Any details about his governorship of Medina?

Unfortunately none that I could find. AhmadLX-(Wikiposta) 18:53, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

• Who are the Kharijites, in brief. Also, was it the Azariqa, Najda, neither, both?

Mostly Azariqa. Added backround and his strugle against them.AhmadLX-(Wikiposta) 18:53, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

• Any more information about his widescale executions of Mukhtar's supporters? Do you know if any RS consider the 6,000-8,000 figure exaggerated? Wondered this myself from before.

No doubt the primary sources inflate the figures. But in this particular case, I haven't come across a source which expressly doubts this number. Hawting in EI2 says "many" of Mukhtar's partisans were killed, whereas Lammens states "considerable number". Dixon and Donner say 6000, Wellhausen says 6000-8000, Anthony says 8,000 whereas Kennedy doesn't give any number just saying Mus'ab "extracted bloody reprisals" on Mukhtar's supporters, so does Daftary saying the ashraf "took their own revenge on the mawalı". Tucker doesn't talk about the incident at all. I have copied the relevant discussion from the Battle of Harura article.AhmadLX-(Wikiposta) 16:46, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

• What were the consequences for the mass slaughter? It is mentioned later in the article that his severity against Mukhtar's supporters turned many Iraqis against him. But could this be elaborated here?

Added Lammens' funny remark;) AhmadLX-(Wikiposta) 03:18, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

• Mention why Mus'ab appointed Muhallab over Mosul and its dependencies.

Done. AhmadLX-(Wikiposta) 03:18, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

• Fell apart → Fell out

Done. AhmadLX-(Wikiposta) 03:18, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

• Link Anbar (town)

Done. AhmadLX-(Wikiposta) 03:18, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

• Elaborate on "severely punished any remaining Umayyad loyalists". Were they jailed, executed, expelled? --Al Ameer (talk) 21:11, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

Elaborated. You might want to see Tabari for Mus'ab's ingenuity in inventing insults ;) AhmadLX-(Wikiposta) 03:18, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, that was an interesting little read ;) --Al Ameer (talk) 22:12, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

• Mention that his son Isa was slain at Maskin before him. Was this not related to his determination to continue the hopeless battle on his own?

Done. Regarding the influence of Isa's death on Mus'ab.s own determination to fight, I haven't seen anything, yet, to that effect. Will definitely add if found. AhmadLX-(Wikiposta) 11:14, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

• Maybe move his building of a dyke to the governorship section, as it pertains more to that than to his personality. It may have to be standalone sentence after "the campaigns ended in failure". That sentence could then be expanded with more information about his governance, if there's any info available, even if just from the primary sources (Tabari, Baladhuri). --Al Ameer (talk) 22:12, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Done. Tabari, AFAIK, focuses only on Mus'ab's war affairs. Baladhuri might have some info, but finding information in Arabic is very difficult. AhmadLX-(Wikiposta) 11:14, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Yes, understood. --Al Ameer (talk) 16:00, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for addressing everything above. Just two more suggestions. --Al Ameer (talk) 22:12, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Thanks to you too for the thorough review. As always, your feedback has resulted in great improvement. AhmadLX-(Wikiposta) 11:14, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Congratulations on another job well done. Al Ameer (talk) 16:00, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

References

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Valereee (talk) 19:25, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that Mus'ab ibn al-Zubayr, the Zubayrid governor of Iraq during the Second Fitna (680–692), fought the Umayyad army at the Battle of Maskin almost alone? Source: Julius Wellhausen, The Arab Kingdom and its Fall (1927), p. 197: "Finally he was left almost alone on the field of battle, which strange situation itself makes the battle famous."

Improved to Good Article status by AhmadLX (talk). Self-nominated at 18:50, 17 February 2021 (UTC).

Interesting life, fine GA on good sources, offline sources accepted AGF, no copyvio obvious. The hook is a bit on the detailed side, but I wouldn't know what to cut. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:34, 3 March 2021 (UTC)