Talk:Mid-West Region, Ireland

Move to Shannon Region

The area is commonly known as the Shannon Region. It is administered by the Mid-West Regional Authority, who also refer to it as the Shannon Region: "For example, parts of North Tipperary would tend to look eastwards rather than towards the hub of the Shannon Region.". Example of sources which use Shannon Region: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], "The Midwest of Ireland is better known as the Shannon Region", shannonregiontourism.ie/, etc, etc. I will move to Shannon Region per WP:Common name, unless there is an objection SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 12:26, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

What chutzpah to make this move! A couple of weeks ago the decision was made to DELETE this entire article (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Shannon Region ). The Mid-West Region, Ireland was the agreed merged vehicle. Whle I've no objection to tourism related stuff from the old articvle being exhumed and added to this article, it's unsupportable that a re-name shoiuld have been done in defiance of WP:AFD. I've now reverted to the official name. Laurel Lodged (talk) 14:47, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

I closed the AfD. It was not closed as a delete, but as a merge, as both articles covered the same material. It was raised during the AfD discussion that perhaps Shannon Region was the appropriate title under our guidelines. I looked into it, and as I explained above, reliable sources do use Shannon Region rather than Mid-West Region, so under WP:Common name, that is the title we should be using. It is notable that the Mid-West Regional Authority also refer to it as the Shannon Region. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 13:01, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Sorry - I didn't realise that you had closed. I noted the closing coments at the time but had assumed that a full debate would ensue about the name. Strangely, my watchlist did not notify me of your first comments and so I was only alerted to this when the name change occoured.Per "Local Government Act, 1991 (Regional Authorities) (Establishment) Order, 1993", shedule one the name of the region is "The Mid-West Region": "The area consisting of the county borough of Limerick and the administrative counties of Clare, Limerick and Tipperary North Riding.". Only another statutory order can change the name. This is not an optional name or something that is subject to wp,commonname. As was noted in the closing debate "shannon region", the term is ill defined and colloquial, that is why the present name was chosen over shannon region. As a result of the merge all unique additional information from that article can be copied into this article. However I noticed an attempt to change the scope in the lead that would have had the effect of making the article more closely resemble a touristic "shannon region" type of article than it's original intent. This should not be allowed as the names of the seven other regions adhere to the legal statutory order. Laurel Lodged (talk) 16:19, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

I understand your concern; however, the naming rules that apply to local governments don't apply here. We use a different criteria when naming articles. It's worth looking at a proposed new guideline - Wikipedia:Official names. That was created because some users are not fully aware of our own guidelines, and might feel that "official names" take precedent over Wikipedia's guidelines and policies. WP:Places is also useful. I also understand your personal distaste for the name, but the reason we have guidelines is so that user's individual preferences do not take precedence over the needs of the readership. The scope of the article is an area in Ireland, and the most common name of the area is the Shannon Region. The scope of articles on an area would include History, Geography, Economy, Arts and culture, Attractions, and Governance, plus other aspects as appropriate, so tourist details in this case are not just acceptable, but required, as the area is a well known tourist region. The feeling in the AfD discussion was that the tourist details should be merged with the governance details. As the area is more known for its tourist aspects than for its governance aspects, the tourist aspects would be primary in the article. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 08:38, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

The Regions of Ireland is a coherent series. There are categories and templates to cater for them. All refer back to the founding legislation. Many of the regions have no independent existence outside of the legislation - they are entirely artificial constructs. Others are more familiar, such as the Dublin Region. Still others can be shoe-horned into something that vaguely sounds familiar, such as "the west": this is the case with the current article. How would it look for the parent article to talk about the "Mid-West" only for the wikilink to go to something called "Shannon"? To change the scope of the lead so as to airbrush out the original creating source is to misrepresent the entire intent of the article. The solution is to add a line to the lead that says, "The region is also known as the Shannon Region, particularly for the purposes of tourism development.". Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:24, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

We do not create articles because someone has created a template, nor do we create articles for being part of a series. Each article should be able to meet notability criteria by itself, not because it is part of a series. From looking at the available material on the area, it is widely known as the Shannon Region, and has enough reliable sources which talk about it, to justify an article. The bulk of the sources, and the bulk of the material are dealing with the tourist aspects of the area, so the Wikipedia article should reflect what the sources are saying. It would not be appropriate for us to downplay or distort the sources. If you can find sources and material which deal with this area mainly as an administrative area, that would be worth looking at alongside those sources which deal with it as a tourist region. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 13:38, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

I was not seeking to justify the existance of the article. The templates and categories were created after this and the other 7 articles had first been created. It exists because it is a noteworthy area of local government as recognised by the State and the EU. That is it part of a linked, cogent series is a good reason to preserve its original name. No evidence has ben produced to say that the name has been changed. That the bulk of the area is co-extensive with the area known as the Shsannon Region is a happy co-incidence, no more. Naturally, all attributes normally associated with an official region of the state such as History, Geography, Economy, Arts and culture, Attractions etc should be incorporated in as much as there is not excessive duplicate with such attrubutes in Local administrative units elsewhere. The key point here is that the current and original name has primacy with re-directs and "See also" sections having secondary importance. As the discussion at the defunct Shanon Region has proven, there is not "enough reliable sources which talk about it, to justify an article". To say otherwise is to argue against your own closing decision, which would be quite funny! Laurel Lodged (talk) 15:00, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Mid-West Region is as far as i am aware the name of the local government administrative unit. Why can't we just add (also known as the Shannon Region) to the lede? Mabuska ^(talk) 09:47, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Shannon Region redux

The preceding discussion "Move to Shannon Region" produced no evidence that "Shannon Region" is ever used to refer to the NUTS region Clare-Limerick-NTipp. Some sources define "Shannon Region" as the area within the remit of Shannon Development, so I have made Shannon Region redirect there. Some sources use "Mid-West Region" to refer to the same area, so I have added a hatnote to Mid-West Region, Ireland.

If it is really more common to use "Mid-West Region" to refer to the Shannon Region as opposed to the NUTS region, the appropriate rearrangement would be as follows:

1. move Mid-West Region, Ireland to Mid-West Region, Ireland (NUTS) or something
2. make Mid-West Region, Ireland redirect to Shannon Development
3. add a hatnote to Shannon Development {{redirect|Mid-West Region, Ireland|the NUTS region|Mid-West Region, Ireland (NUTS)}}

Since Shannon Development is about a defunct agency, if people are still using "Shannon Region" to refer to the same area, then maybe the Shannon Development article should move to Shannon Region jnestorius^(talk) 21:34, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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External links modified (January 2018)

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