Talk:Michael Che

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Racism

There are quite a few reliable sources that speak to Che's racism, especially regarding reactions from social media on certain occasions. Several editors have attempted to remove the sourced passages from the article; I would really hate to call it "whitewashing" but I think I just went there. Elizium23 (talk) 07:37, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

Skit taken off their website

I'm not sure where to put this, so I thought I'd post it here. I noticed that both the NBC website as well as the SNL youtube channel have removed Che's sketch 'Undercover as a liberal white woman named Gretchen'. Not sure why this is done. Perhaps due to the negative reactions he got from the liberal white women or how his remarks relating to trans people have been received. Maybe interesting to discover for the wiki editors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.254.42.166 (talk) 14:30, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Criticism

I think you misunderstood. He wasn't accused of being an anti-semite, but he was criticized (per the sources) of making am anti semitic joke. How is that different from what's in the article, that he was criticized for making a transphobic joke? Kenosha Forever (talk) 19:09, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Che told a joke, "Israel is reporting that they’ve vaccinated half of their population, and I’m going to guess it’s the Jewish half." The American Jewish Committee is demanding an apology. As JTA.org says, Israel has come under some criticism for refusing to extend its coronavirus vaccination program to West Bank Palestinians, for delaying the delivery of vaccines to Gaza Strip Palestinians and for not being as robust in its vaccination outreach to Arab Israelis as it is to Jewish Israelis. So let's not start calling Che "anti-semitic" for pointing out how Israel is rolling out its COVID vaccines. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:12, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

This "joke" had nothing to do with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The Palestinians in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip are not part of Israel's "population". Under the Oslo accords, responsibility for their health care was transferred from Israel to the Palestinian Authority! The "joke" was that Israel is only vaccinating it's own Jewish citizens. That is a lie! The source of the JTA article you quoted was an article in the Forward which clearly says that "23% of Arab-Israelis had received at least one dose of the Pfizer vaccine, compared to 33% of Haredi Jews....". Not a huge difference! Even more importantly, the article says that the vaccines were available to it's Arab citizens but that many didn't take advantage of it because of "widespread distrust of the government among Palestinian citizens of Israel". The article also quotes Rashdi Jasser who said that "many of his fellow [Arab] construction workers have dismissed government warnings about the dangers of coronavirus, calling it nonsense and refusing to wear masks."--Steamboat2020 (talk) 02:07, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

He told a joke, and was criticized for it, per the source. How is that different from saying he was criticized for telling transphobic jokes? Kenosha Forever (talk) 19:14, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Putting in that he was criticized for a joke without putting any context in there about what the joke was or why he told it is POV by omission. The trans issue seems different based on severity, but I have to actually read those articles to make a full comparison. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:28, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

What makes the transphobic issue more severe? How is that not a POV issue, seeing that those jokes do not have any context about what the joke was or why he told them? Kenosha Forever (talk) 19:33, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

And looking at the history now, I find your explanation to be a bit disingenuous, as you had previously removed a similar edit, that included the full joke. Kenosha Forever (talk) 19:36, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

I don't see any such removal in the article history. And besides, talk page guidelines say focus on the content, not the contributor. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:48, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Seriously? you don't remember making this edit today - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Michael_Che&type=revision&diff=1008124519&oldid=1008124303 ? Kenosha Forever (talk) 19:50, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

I thought you meant removing a transphobic joke. That edit was poor from the BLP and Arab/Israeli conflict standpoints, the same as your edit. No context on Israel not vaccinating Palestinians, which is the basis of the joke. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:54, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

If you want to focus on content, repeated instances of "punching down" appear to have established a preponderance of reliable sources and commentary regarding trans jokes.[1] Making a joke that points out that Israel doesn't always treat Palestinians well is not anti-semitic. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:51, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

"Making a joke that points out that Israel doesn't always treat Palestinians well is not anti-semitic." - is your opinion, which I disagree with, but we write here based on what sources say, not based on our opinions. And the sources say this was anti semitic, and that he was criticized for it. Kenosha Forever (talk) 19:57, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

We can disagree in our opinions. But, not the facts. Sources do not say this "was" anti-semitic, unless that source is POV to the point of being unusable. That JTA source says that one organization says it's anti-semitic. And, that's only one side of the story, as the JTA article included information about the background that provides context. Including one side without the other is a POV violation in a BLP on an issue regarding the Arab/Israeli conflict. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:01, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Many sources do in fact say it was antisemitic : https://www.showbiz411.com/2021/02/21/michael-che-makes-an-anti-semitic-joke-on-saturday-night-live-thats-already-getting-social-media-criticism; https://floridanewstimes.com/snl-michael-che-complains-of-what-is-said-to-be-an-anti-semitic-joke/146337/; https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/saturday-night-live-star-michael-che-faces-backlash-for-weekend-update-joke-some-deemed-anti-semitic. No "other side" or context is given for the transphobic joke, either Kenosha Forever (talk) 20:08, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Well, while I was out someone made a better addition of the content, and so I added in the context on Israel and the West Bank and Gaza Strip, which informs where the joke came from. – Muboshgu (talk) 02:09, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Ok, I added that this is presumably the context, but we don't know that for sure. Kenosha Forever (talk) 02:27, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

I see that overnight, there has been a lot more disruptive editing on this subject, and zero additional discussion. (Not by you, KF, but lots of editing and vandalism by others.) I have requested page protection. I may bring this page up at the BLP noticeboard for more opinions. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:24, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Ok. I'm still not seeing the issue here - what is the BLP noticeboard where you are discussing it? Kenosha Forever (talk) 17:34, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Do we need context for the most recent controversy (showing rates different demographics are being vaccinated in Israel) or do we only need to focus on that the AJC is calling for an apology? Thekplan99 (talk) 18:59, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

I think that context is helpful to explain why an apology was requested. Kenosha Forever (talk) 19:05, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Okay, then is there a way that my most recent edit could be formatted/phrased/sourced so as to provide context without violating Wikipedia policy? Thekplan99 (talk) 19:27, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

I don't know if you can use that exact wording, but maybe you can rely on https://jewishchronicle.timesofisrael.com/the-ajc-wants-saturday-night-live-to-apologize-for-vaccine-joke/, which covers the AJC's request and quotes Israeli ambassador Erdan (who also asked for an apology) as saying "the success of our vaccination drive is exactly because every citizen of Israel — Jewish, Muslim, Christian-is entitled it.". Kenosha Forever (talk) 20:11, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

The notable entity here is clearly SNL not Che, the WP:RS don’t cover this as a Michael Che controversy they cover it as an SNL controversy and note that apologies are being demanded from SNL not from Che personally. Most sources don’t seem to make more than a passing mention of Che. Why is this the appropriate page on which to cover this controversy? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:50, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

An SNL controversy created by the actions of a specific contributor are clearly relevant on his page. And many sources refer to him , specifically, see for example https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/02/23/michael-che-israel-vaccine-snl/ Kenosha Forever (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 17:58, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Che is an actor. The source you just provided makes it clear that Che is second to SNL here. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:50, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

How is this different from the transphobia controversy? The show was criticized but Che was also criticized for partaking. TheBookkeeper7 (talk) 19:32, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

The coverage looks significantly different, but then again its too early to tell with the Che coverage. Remember we are in no hurry, see WP:RECENTISM. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:48, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

The quote from the tweet was also used in such a way as to suggest that the “you” in question was Che and not SNL when the tweet clearly tags SNL (@nbcsnl) *not* Che... Thats a BLP issue even if we choose to include the incident. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:05, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

We can feel free to include the tag if we bring back this paragraph. I think it's important to note that The Washington Post interpreted it as being directed at Che and that Che has no official Twitter account. TheBookkeeper7 (talk) 20:39, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

• I have opened a discussion about this issue at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#Michael Che. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:52, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

  The initial comments at BLP suggest not including the Israel joke at this time, per WP:RECENTISM. Discussion is ongoing. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:51, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

It may not stand, but, I have taken that Wikipedia WP:BOLD step and axed the remaining entries in the section entirety. Repeating the edit summary...comedians get criticized by their targets all the time. Unless it is impactful on one's career or sees widespread, persistent coverage, this entire section is bunk. The section was...Boston being sad about being called racist, beefs with other comedians, and some guff over a few transgender jokes. None of this rises to the level of a biographical controversy IMO. Zaathras (talk) 22:24, 23 February 2021 (UTC)