Talk:MacGorman

Gender and Translations

Irish surnames indicate gender, but I couldn't figure out how to edit the translation field. The female translation of MacGorman should be Nic Gormáin, and the female of O'Gorman should be Ní Gormáin. Can anyone edit that in for me? Meaigs (talk) 14:21, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

Multiple Origins edit

While I do appreciate that someone took the time to add all that information, I have a few problems with it (hence the revision). First, this is an article about the surname not the given name. Second, I frankly doubt the veracity of some of those claims and there were no sources to lead me to any other conclusion. Also, I really don't appreciate the relegation of the Irish to the end of the article almost as an aside.

Finally, Before making any major edits you should run it by the talk page.

Gormanoglu (talk) 23:52, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Yeah the article is about the surname; and the surname has several origins. The reference is and was clearly visible under the 'references' section. I just added another one for good measure. Any idea whose arms those are that are pictured?--Celtus (talk) 04:57, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes. They're the Gorman coat of arms. The Irish Gormans. I'm going to keep your edits but I'm going to make the Irish one primary since it is the most common form of the name.

The fact that you couldn't identify the coat of arms leads me to believe you don't know much about the subject. The information on the other origins I think would be better kept in its own section.

Gormanoglu (talk) 05:02, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Man you need to slow down. The surname is used by more than just people of Irish descent. Coats of arms are granted to individuals not an entire family. That particular coat of arms belongs (or belonged) to someone not the entire family. So it'd be a good idea for us to figure out whose it is. The most unbiased way to present the information is alphabetically. That's why its the origins were ordered English, German, Irish. So, slow down and try not to assume too much--Celtus (talk) 05:24, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry if I'm coming off as hostile, but I honestly feel like your edits are doing a disservice to the information. The Irish origin is by far the most common, hence why it is always mentioned first (as it was in your source). Also, your examples of historical documentation of the name is rather poor. Gormáin is mentioned as far back as 465 in the genealogy of the U’ Bairrche (which you would know if you happened to check the references).

As for the coat of arms is concerned, actually it is meant to represent the whole family (or clan). Irish heraldry is more like Polish heraldry than English in that sense. There are many different variations of the white lion/swords motif. My own immediate family has quite a few heirlooms that include it. It is also very common to see it displayed in parts of Munster, specifically in counties Clare and Cork (where there are quite a few Gormans). I'd be interested to see where it actually originated from though.

That specific picture is from "The General Armory of England, Scotland, Ireland, & Wales" by Sir Bernard Burke, 1884.

The description in there states: ""A Sept derived from Cathair Mor, King of Leinster, who inhabited the territory of Hy Bairche, in the Queen's county and county Carlow, from which they were driven after the invasion of 1172, and settled under the O'Briens in the Barony of Ibrickan, in Thomond; they derived their surname from Gormain, Chief of the Sept. Azure a lion passant between three swords erect argent. Crest- An arm embowed in armor, grasping in the hand a sword, blade wavy, all proper. Mottoes- Tosach catha agus deinadh air; and, Primi et ultimi in bello.""

Hope that helps.

Gormanoglu (talk) 05:40, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

You gotta leave behind your bias when you edit Wikipedia. You can't just exclude information that doesn't agree with you. The fact you were insulted about the "relegation of the Irish to the end of the article" betrays it. The lead is supposed to include an overview of the article; so it can't be solely on the Irish name. I think the first real section should explain the etymology of the name. It should include all various origins of the name. Alphabetical is totally unbiased. Can you find a good reference that says most "Gormans" are Irish? I wouldn't be surprised if most were, but i don't know for sure and i don't think you do either. Since the Dictionary of American Family Names lists it first, i guess it they think it is (at-least for Americans).

The history of the Irish family should go in the next section - separate from the etymology since it is basically a different topic. Somewhere i think we could list similar/variant surnames. I think most Irish arms are based upon the chiefly arms of the name. But the only one entitle to the Gorman arms is the chief. I think the Chief Herald of Ireland would only have granted the chiefly arms to the chief and all other Gormans granted arms would have similar (but not the same). Most people don't realise arms are personal and must be granted to you.

Right now the article is skewed, making it seem like Gorman is of Irish origin and 'oh yeah a few English and Germans use the name too'. It has to be neutral and balanced.--Celtus (talk) 06:52, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

See link. Lists the blazon of the arms (O'Gorman):

• ARMS: az. a lion pass. betw. three swords erect ar.
• CREST: an arm embowed in armour, grapsing in the hard a sword, blade wavy, all ppr.
• MOTTOES: tossach catha agus deineadh air and primi et ultimi in bello.

Also listed are two men who granted the arms by the Ulster King of Arms in the 1700s.--Celtus (talk) 07:13, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

See link. I found where the pic of the arms came from. It doesn't actually say the picture came from Burke's The General Armory of England, Scotland, Ireland, & Wales. It only says the blazon came from that book. Were you the one who uploaded the picture? Or have you seen that particular picture in that book before? I can't find that pic on the google versions of the book.--Celtus (talk) 08:00, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Ahh you seem to have interrupted my attempt at posting...its what I get for taking too long.

I actually agree with you and like very much your most recent edit. How's that for backtracking? ;)

And no, I didn't upload that image but a family member of mine did. To answer your question, yes it is from the book. It's also identical to the one used by my family on everything. I always assumed it was because it was the 'official' presentation as opposed to just the shield which I see in most places. Gormanoglu (talk) 08:37, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Speaking of which, you may want to watch this page. As soon as he finds out about these edits he's likely to implode the whole thing again. He knows WAY more about all this than I do though so he might actually like what you've done with it. Just a heads-up.

Oh and I should mention that there is a difference between how heraldry is handled in official sense and how people use it in everyday life... especially in Ireland. I highly doubt that most people who display their crest have any official sanction. Also, I'm sure you're aware that the status of the Chief Harald of Ireland is still in flux as the current way of doing things is still derived from English tradition as opposed to Irish. These things are treated more as a clan symbols rather than something to be "bestowed" in a feudal sense, which is ironically more in line with Irish tradition. Theory and practice are far different things my friend. Gormanoglu (talk) 08:55, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

I think you're off about the heraldry stuff. Coats of arms are treated as 'clan symbols' by people who know little to nothing about heraldry. There's no such thing as 'family arms' or 'clan arms', or anything like that (obviously we're talking Britain and Ireland). I guess the family member who uploaded that picture is sorta confused about heraldry too ("Gorman family coat of arms" & "It's my family's coat of arms. I give myself permission to use it"). The fact is you have to apply for a grant of arms in order for you to call one your own—thats just the way it is. Note that the chief herald currently accepts applications for grants, so you, or your family member, could easily apply for your own legit arms. The office of the chief herald likely has a list of everyone known who possessed those particular O'Gorman arms. It could even be that the mentioned arms are only as old as those two mid-18th century Thomases listed by Burke. The point is it doesn't really mean anything if people have pictures of the 'Gorman family' arms at home, or as heirlooms, or whatever. Its kinda like having a picture of someone elses car—you neither own the arms nor the car, all you've really got is a picture of someone else's property. Think of it like that. Just because a lot of people are a little vague on heraldry doesn't mean that the rules aren't followed, or that it is not alive today. Grants of Irish arms are made all the time. If you want to learn about Irish heraldry, or how arms are granted, you could look up the website of the office of the chief herald.

I think maybe the history of the Irish Gorman family could live in its own article. So its equal for all the anglicised forms of the name (Gorman, O'Gorman, MacGorman, McGorman). And then those articles would then have a link to the main 'family' page. I don't know what it should be called though. Mac Gormáin, or Mac Gormáin (sept)? I've read that Ó Gormáin is historically incorrect.--Celtus (talk) 05:46, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I think you assume too much. Like I said, he knows way more about this that I do. Additionally, he himself is from Ireland and his dad owns a castle so I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt as to whether or not he was granted them at some point.

Also you seem to ignore that the symbols in the coat of arms are derived from pre-Norman invasion battle standards. For example, the O/Mac Gorman coat of arms are based on a blue banner with a white lion and three swords that had been in use since long before 1169. Now I'm fully aware that there are sometimes differences between the two. For example the O'Cahan banner/crest features a fish, a horse, a griffon and a tree whereas the associated heraldry usually only includes the fish and some other elements (I have no idea why but if you're interested I'm sure you could find out). My point being that these symbols have more meanings than you’re giving them credit for.

And this I think brings me to my main point. Yes, I agree that most people are ignorant of the rules governing heraldry. It is my contention, however, that the widespread use of these symbols and the meaning attached to them creates its own set of definitions and subsequent reality. You must at least recognize that these symbols exist outside the bounds of your narrow definition of them. More so in this case where one must recognize, as the saying goes, that "There is no Irish heraldry, only English heraldry in Ireland." I won't belabor this point though, since we might as well be debating the categorical imperative.

Gormanoglu (talk) 08:50, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

I've thought about a separate article linked to the main page but I think its best to use the wait and see approach with this one. I'm sure eventually enough information will be compiled but honestly I don't see how what's on there now necessitates its own page.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Ó is correct. It's just the Gaeilge equivalent of O'.

Gormanoglu (talk) 09:14, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't want to make this discussion a bigger deal than it ought to be. We should be trying to help the article, not arguing for the sake of it or trying to create bad will or anything. I understand your latest point about the symbolism (which can stretch back to the mists of time: ex. the Red Hand of Ulster). But the points you were trying to make before were that 'family arms' existed and that they were 'clan symbols. They don't exist (check out the chief herald's website). What we were discussing was that particular coat of arms uploaded. We weren't discussing the heraldic elements that all O'Gorman/Gorman arms share, or of pre-heraldic banners or anything like that. Yeah, most people are ignorant on 'clan crests' and all that. Hence you can buy them off crap websites and ebay (along with 'knighthoods', 'baronies', various 'noble titles' and other crap). Irish heraldry is however real and alive. This is an encyclopaedia article, so we should try to set the record straight from reliable sources, and dispel the myths and (common) misconceptions.

I know nothing about why those particular elements are used within O'Gorman/Gorman heraldry. It'd be cool to know the story behind the heraldic elements prevalent in the name's heraldry. So i dunno anything about the banner used "long before 1169" you mention (the office of the chief herald states the oldest Gaelic heraldic device, in this case a seal, dates from 1356). I wonder if the lion passant has anything to do with O'Brien heraldry. The O'Brien three lions passant were first granted in the 1500s to Murrough O'Brien by Henry VIII as a differenced version this king's own arms (Murrough surrendered his kingdom in return for the earldom). Murrough's successor was his nephew Donogh who was created "Baron Ibrickane" (Ibracken is where the MacGormans held lands under the O'Briens).

What i meant about the Ó was that supposedly people only began spelling their name "O'Gorman" in around the 1700s and on. What i've read is that historically the family name was Mac Gormáin not Ó Gormáin; and during the Gaelic revial in Ireland many Gormans chose to add the O' to their names because they didn't know any better.--Celtus (talk) 06:27, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

History

The history section as it now stands is highly unreliable. Unless some steps are made to improve it, bring it more in line with historical scholarship rather than family foundation mythology, I am going to delete it all. Agricolae (talk) 19:54, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Page views

Hi, I’m sorry this discussion is not about editing the page but rather to find out how many page views it has had ? ClannGormain (talk) 10:50, 4 June 2020 (UTC)