Talk:List of people from Serbia

inclusion of Montenegrin Serbs

This seems weird. If there is a separate list of Serbs, it doesn't make sense to include all the various Montenegrins here. At the same time, the lead says "associated with Serbia and its territory by [...] some other similar connection, modern or historical" which is so broad, even just membership in the Serbian Orthodox Church could suffice. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 17:00, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

List of Serbs seems to have all the problems that used to beset this list, before it was moved from List of Serbs to List of people from Serbia. Maybe it's a good AfD candidate?  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:51, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

previously discussed people

I noticed in Talk:List of people from Serbia/Archive 1#Requested move 21 July 2018 that Stana Katic and Gavrilo Princip were listed as contentious, which was in fact correct - these could fit into the list of Serbs, but not list of people "from Serbia". Yet, they're still listed here four years later. Pinging nominator and closer SMcCandlish Dekimasu - what happened here? --Joy [shallot] (talk) 17:10, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Hello Joy, my role was only to determine the consensus of the discussion (cf. WP:DEMAND). Of course, you should feel free to make any edits that would improve the list. Dekimasuよ! 01:54, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

What happened was no one did the cleanup required by the move. I just removed those two, since they are clearly not from Serbia. There are probably some others.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  06:01, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks (to the both of you). This does bring up the obvious question - can we properly maintain two of these separate lists, or is it actually a bit too ambitious? --Joy [shallot] (talk) 15:47, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, looks like someone who didn't agree with the rename/rescope of this article simply recreated the problematic version of it at its original title.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:52, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

The page history was so confusing, the move log there didn't have any entries. I undeleted the proof that Dekimasu had executed the move in August 2018 but this just made it incongruous, the edits around it show no actual change... but from that context ("Serbians") I guessed I should check where List of Serbians points to, and found this April 2019 change, which came about from a discussion now at Talk:List of Serbs/Archive 1 which had been effectively hidden as it was appended to a redirect (d'oh). It's amazing how the general process failed here - we had two separate discussions with zero overlapping commenters, so it was kind of an organic WP:FORUMSHOP situation in retrospect. Also, in the meantime there was a large number of edits to List of Serbs by Sadko, who was since banned from the topic area. Sounds like it's time to have another round of discussion... --Joy [shallot] (talk) 23:19, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

On a more general note, this seems like a manifestation of a persistent nationalist talking point - the members of the nation have to be put in one place, as one big happy family of compatriots, which is a show of strength. To speak of them in terms of actual countries is like using borders as wedges that would splinter and weaken the nation. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 23:30, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, and it also has strongly racialist notions behind it.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:34, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

It does seem worth mentioning that List of English people, List of French people and List of Germans don't try to use the form "from $country". So maybe have "List of Serbian people"? --Joy [shallot] (talk) 07:52, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Category:Lists of people by location and subcategories thereof don't demonstrate a clear "standard", but "List of people from Placename" is a common pattern. List of Serbian people, List of Serbians or List of Serbs all have the same problem: there's no clear inclusion criterion. That's why I went with List of people from Serbia, which builds the criterion into the page name.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  08:28, 9 August 2022 (UTC)