Talk:Hussein of Jordan

2010 POV dispute

The article, especially the intro, looks like it was written by a pro-Hussein propagandist. The intro is filled with poorly referenced propaganda. Also, sections in which he should appear less than perfect to a pro-democracy Westerner, such as should be found in the Six-Day War, Black September, and The Gulf War sections, is minimal. Also, the article focuses on relatively unimportant. Hussein was the de facto and de juro king of an important country of six million citizens for 63 years, yet the half the article is about his personal life, family, and death. I'll help try to fix this.  dmyersturnbull  ⇒ talk 05:36, 2 May 2010 (UTC) Well, there have been some corrections made, but if anything the history of King Hussein's reign now reads as if written from a very particular political POV. The reference to Black September suggests he called the US and Israel on the phone and agreed to throw the Palestinians out. The link to the main article is there, but the summary omits the reasons for conflict between several Communist Palestinian groups and a nearly absolute monarchy.EclecticGeek (talk) 01:28, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

I just completed a major edit of this article to get it to standards. I removed much of the unencyclopedic material and controversial claims. I removed most of his speeches, only noting that he made them (if they were notable) and added qualifiers to other claims. Although it is still not a very good article, I think it should be an improvement. If anyone feels that these edits were unfair feel free to revert and we can discuss. But as I noted before, I think it is better now than it was before. Poyani (talk) 21:41, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Talal of Jordan which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 17:45, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

'President Gamal Abdul Nasser of Egypt often referred to Hussein as "an "imperialist lackey".'

There is even a pretty little footnote given linking an article to cite this statement. Except that the article on the other end of the link says nothing of the kind. It is a reference to an article about Nasser and Hussein meeting to sign their treaty prior to the Six Day War. Nasser is quoted saying a couple of things, but the words "imperialist lackey" aren't there. This should be marked "citation needed" at least, and removed if an accurate citation is not provided in support. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EclecticGeek (talk • contribs) 01:32, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

I just did a quick google search and this source came up. Feel free to add it. Although, instead of "had often referred to" it should probably say "had previously referred to". Poyani (talk) 21:37, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

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Black September

Right now there is a link to the main article on the topic and not a very good summary, ending in a sentence fragment. A better (and hopefully unbiased) short summary needs to be written. Sergivs-en (talk) 07:53, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

HM King Hussein of Jordan did receive the highest Dansh order "The Order of The Elephant" on the 27th of April 1998.

In April 1998 HM King Hussein visited Denmark. On the 27th of April 1998 HM King Hussein of Jordan did receive the highest Dansh order "The Order of The Elephant". The order is given almost exclusively to heads of state and to members of royal familes related to the Dansk Rpyal family. Exceptins were Winston Churchil, General Mongommery and General Eisenhower who all received the order at the end of the second world war. Four non-royal Danes have received the order: The language scientist Vilhelm Thomsen (1912), the founder of the Danish East Asiatic Company H. N. Andersen (1919), the nuclear scientist and Nobel Prize winner Niels Bohr (1947) and Mærsk Mc-Kinney Møller (2000). Reference: http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elefantordenen Peter Henrik Horsten Copenhagen, Denmark. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.191.211.114 (talk) 23:11, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

King Hussein and the 1990-1991 Gulf War

There is a notable gap in this article for the 1990-1991 Gulf War. This would be a valuable addition to the King's biography, and helpful for the lay scholar.76.92.141.104 (talk) 03:34, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

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Descent from Muhammad

The descent from Muhammad itself does not confer any special status. It has recently been noted that the Queen of the United Kingdom is a descendant but that is hardly news since every European is descended from Muhammad. What entitled Hussein's ancestors to the Meccan Sharifate and gave political legitimacy to his regime was his agnatic descent from Muhammad's daughter, i.e. the status of sayyid. That's what sets his descent apart from that of millions of other. Surtsicna (talk) 21:29, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

@Surtsicna: How and why on earth do you think Europeans are deacended from Muhammad?! Again, I am using the terminology present in most sources. Makeandtoss (talk) 22:05, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

It's simple mathematics: "everyone of European ancestry must descend from Muhammad." The man lived 14 centuries ago and his immediate descendants were quite prolific. Similarly we are all descended from Charlemagne.[1][2] There are sources that specify that Hussein was a male-line descendant of Muhammad's daughter (eg. [3]). It would not hurt to be more precise. Surtsicna (talk) 22:25, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

@Surtsicna: Ok, I now see what you meant. Lets leave this bit away from the lede, I restored the rest. Makeandtoss (talk) 08:18, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

@Surtsicna: It's the direct male lineage that matters. According to traditional genealogy, they are direct descendants of Muhammad's daughter and Ali. Also, his direct ancestors were the rulers of Hijaz, the region that includes Mecca and Medina. --Yomal Sidoroff-Biarmskii (talk) 05:24, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

And that is exactly what I wrote. Surtsicna (talk) 10:25, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Bad source

@GHcool: How about we refrain from using an Israeli think tank as a reliable source? What does majority even mean? 90%? 51%? Makeandtoss (talk) 22:46, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but the Begin–Sadat Center for Strategic Studies is a reliable source. You give no legitimate reason why we shouldn't consider it reliable. The fact that it is based in Israel is irrelevant for several reasons:

1. The geographic location of a source does not impact a source's reliability. To argue otherwise is distasteful to say the least.
2. The think tank was founded by a Canadian and has an international staff.
3. The author of the article is a Jordanian.
4. We cite Israelis throughout the article. --GHcool (talk) 00:33, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Maiden

It should be noted that Hussein underwrote the voyage of the Maiden during the 1989-1990 Whitbread Round the World Race, skippered by Tracy Edwards whom he'd met years before. Without his funding via Jordan Airlines the trip would not have happened.

How many wars with Israel?

"Jordan fought three wars with Israel under Hussein, including the 1967 Six-Day War, ..."

I'm not aware of any war other than the 1967 one that Jordan actually fought with (or rather against) Israel. Laugh Tough (talk) 05:50, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

War of Attrition and Yom Kippor. Makeandtoss (talk) 16:27, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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Requested move 18 May 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. (non-admin closure) SilverLocust (talk) 00:47, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

---

Hussein of Jordan → Hussein, King of Jordan – Per WP:PRECISION "Hussein of Jordan" could also refer to his grandson, Hussein, Crown Prince of Jordan and pageviews analysis demonstrates this as the two are relatively close in pageviews and the latter surpasses the former on occasion. [4]

WP:NCROY permits both forms "X of Y" or "X, King/Queen of Y" to be used, so that guideline is neutral on this matter. estar8806 (talk) ★ 20:06, 18 May 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 07:30, 5 June 2023 (UTC)— Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 10:17, 13 June 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. - 🔥𝑰𝒍𝒍𝒖𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑭𝒍𝒂𝒎𝒆 (𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒌)🔥 12:44, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support. Seems to be an improvement in clarity. Walrasiad (talk) 22:13, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
• Support per nom. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 22:19, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
• Support If his grandson ever ascends to the throne he will mostly likely become Hussein II and this page can be moved to "Hussein I of Jordan". But until then, it's perfectly natural to have it titled "Hussein, King of Jordan". We have precedence in the form of Anne, Queen of Great Britain, Edgar, King of England, Christina, Queen of Sweden, etc. none of whom had regnal names with ordinal numbers. Also, if this page gets moved, we should consider moving Talal of Jordan as well for the sake of consistency and due to the fact that there's a living Jordanian prince with the same first name. Keivan.f^Talk 00:37, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
• Move to King Hussein - already redirects there and is sufficient to identify the subject. Interstellarity (talk) 16:59, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

  Violates WP:SOVEREIGN. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 20:24, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

  There’s a clause in there that says exceptions can be made on a case by case basis. Interstellarity (talk) 17:57, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

  Exceptions can be made on a case-by-case basis, taking account of general article titling policy - Is your proposed title (King Hussein) WP:RECOGNIZABLE? Is it WP:CONSISTENT? estar8806 (talk) ★ 18:13, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

  @Estar8806: there is a clear WP:COMMONNAME here, which is "King Hussein" - see [5]. So there is no need to appeal directly to the individual naming criteria. Policy favours this name. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 10:42, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

  Plenty of Kings and Queens are commonly known by their titles, but are not known by their titles on Wikipedia per WP:CONCISE and to avoid clutter - WP:NCROY is somewhat like WP:HONORIFIC in this. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:52, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose There is no need for a name change. Leave it as is until a change is actually needed. GandalfXLD (talk) 20:09, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
• Comment - If/when his grandson ascends the Jordanian throne & he chooses the name "Hussein II"? This page would eventually be named "Hussein I of Jordan". PS - What about King Hussein's father's page. -- GoodDay (talk) 00:09, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

• I did bring up his father's page. If this page gets moved, that one should be moved as well per WP:TITLECON IMO. Keivan.f^Talk 22:19, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Loytra (talk) 03:20, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
• Support The name is unambiguous for the time being. Векочел (talk) 16:27, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

  @Векочел: Did you mean oppose here? Iskandar323 (talk) 10:28, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

  • I am supporting the move. Sorry, I meant the new name was unambiguous. Векочел (talk) 16:50, 5 June 2023 (UTC)
• Move to King Hussein or King Hussein of Jordan per WP:COMMONNAME. I have never heard him referred to as "Hussein, King of Jordan", and it would not be at all helpful for readers to use that title. He is overwhelmingly known as King Hussein in sources, more so than other monarchs.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:30, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Relisted per consensus at Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2023 May. The previous close was: "Moved to King Hussein. WP:BARTENDER." Extraordinary Writ (talk) 07:30, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

• Comment / Note to closer - this has been relisted following a move review, but a reminder of the ngram evidence I presented above - [6] - we can see from this that "King Hussein" is overwhelmingly the WP:COMMONNAME, with maybe five times as many usages as the next nearest contender, which is "King Hussein of Jordan". The other two options on the table, "Hussein of Jordan" (the status quo) and "Hussein, King of Jordan" barely register at all in book sources (we can see that "Hussein of Jordan by itself isn't used, because its ngram runs entirely neck-and-neck with the longer "King Hussein of Jordan", while the proposed namd is rock bottom with four orders of magnitude fewer usages than the next contender). There is simply no usage whatsoever for the proposed or existing name, and the decision comes down to two options only - "King Hussein" or "King Hussein of Jordan". Naming conventions can't override the policy at WP:COMMONNAME when the evidence of actual real-world usage is this overwhelming.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:13, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

  King Hussein is a very bad idea, because it ambiguously can refer to Hussein bin Ali, King of Hejaz - a figure noted in the move review, and partially accounting for those Ngrams results, including all of the results prior to the 1950s. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:27, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

  Well, as you'll see if you follow the link, King Hussein is already a redirect to this title, so the question of primary topic is already established. There is no need to give it a more awkward title given that scenario. The page view lead is fairly convincing too. Anyway, as I say, King Hussein of Jordan might be a plausible second choice, it's mainly the other two proposed titles which are not compliant with the policy.  — Amakuru (talk) 12:04, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

  Both King Hussein of Jordan and plain King Hussein are violations of WP:NCROY, which is part of WP:CONSISTENCY, a policy just as much as common name. estar8806 (talk) ★ 12:13, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

  As I've told you repeatedly, COMMONNAME is an overarching policy which supersedes any of the individual criteria listed at WP:AT. The wording reads: "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources) as such names will usually best fit the five criteria listed above. When there is no single, obvious name that is demonstrably the most frequently used for the topic by these sources, editors should reach a consensus as to which title is best by considering these criteria directly". In this case, however, there is an "obvious name that is demonstrably the most frequently used for the topic by these sources", or perhaps two such - "King Hussein" and "King Hussein of Jordan"; it's not even close. Your proposed name, which barely any sources use, merely to satisfy a guideline that has lots of exceptions already, is a clear violation of the naming policy.  — Amakuru (talk) 21:11, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

  "King Hussein" is too vague because there is another king with that name. This is an encyclopedia and we should not give preferential treatment to certain individuals. Yes, it redirects to this page just like Queen Adelaide that redirects to Adelaide of Saxe-Meiningen. That doesn't mean that Adelaide of Saxe-Meiningen's page should be at "Queen Adelaide" as there were other queens with that name and it would go against WP:NCROY. "King Hussein of Jordan" also goes against WP:SOVEREIGN. I cannot find any pages on any monarchs from any countries that is titled this way. Keivan.f^Talk 15:22, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Oppose: WP:SOVEREIGN (4.) supports the format "Name, title of country" absent an ordinal, but the current title is already perfectly recognizable, not realistically ambiguous and far more common than the proposed, and the potential confusion with the crown prince is extremely minor: very few people are going to think this is his son, and, if he is crowned, it will become Hussein I and Hussein II. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:38, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

very few people are going to think this is his son I think you mean his grandson, right? Because his son and the current monarch is Abdullah II. Just asking for the sake of clarification. Keivan.f^Talk 20:41, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Yes, my bad. Just re-read it and was going to correct it, but then saw you'd posted this. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:45, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Neutral re: the proposal, but strong oppose King Hussein, which violates normal rules about avoiding starting titles with honorifics and has recognizability issues. That you can use "King Hussein" in running text (as per ngrams) is neither here nor there. That kind of approach would lead to lopping off a lot of first names from biographical articles. Srnec (talk) 21:02, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support either "Hussein, King of Jordan" or "Hussein bin Talal, King of Jordan", per WP:PRECISION and WP:SOVEREIGN, particularly since there already is an article "Hussein bin Ali, King of Hejaz". Including the patronymic would avoid ambiguity if and when there's a "Hussein bin Abdullah, King of Jordan" (his grandson, the current king's son), without the need to add "I"/"II". – .Raven  .talk 03:46, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

  (Incidentally, both Abdullah I and Abdullah II had fathers named Hussein, so their numbers will probably have to be kept.) – .Raven  .talk 03:52, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Oppose current naming convention follows WP:SOVEREIGN for monarchs, I see no reason to change it now, especially as there is King Hussein of the Hejaz. Crown prince Hussein isn't a monarch, and when he becomes one, he will be Hussein II, so there is no room for confusion, similar to Abdullah I of Jordan and Abdullah II of Jordan. Makeandtoss (talk) 08:55, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. Hussein of Jordan clearly refers to the king, not the crown prince. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:25, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:SOVEREIGN. In time, Crown Prince Hussein will be Hussein II, no confusion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Richiepip (talk • contribs) 17:55, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

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Note: WikiProject Biography has been notified of this discussion. - 🔥𝑰𝒍𝒍𝒖𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑭𝒍𝒂𝒎𝒆 (𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒌)🔥 12:43, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Hussein de Jordanie" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Hussein de Jordanie has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 August 16 § Hussein de Jordanie until a consensus is reached. estar8806 (talk) ★ 16:10, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 3 November 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved - Consensus based on consistency, conciseness. FOARP (talk) 17:54, 10 November 2024 (UTC) FOARP (talk) 17:54, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

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Hussein of Jordan → Hussein, King of Jordan – It's been over a year since the last discussion so I think it's time to revisit this.

First of all, the current title fails WP:PRECISE by presuming this article is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. While that may be true by long-term significance, pageviews tell a different story [7], and we are supposed to consider both when judging a primary topic.

Additionally, last time around King Hussein was proposed as a reasonable alternative, but that also fails WP:PRECISE as there is another king known by the name of Hussein, Hussein bin Ali, King of Hejaz, who's long-term significance is not negligible. estar8806 (talk) ★ 15:24, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Strong oppose as the relevant guideline here is WP:SOVEREIGN: "Article titles are not normally prefixed with "King", "Queen", "Emperor" or equivalent."

Crown Prince Hussein is irrelevant since he is still not a sovereign monarch. Even if he was, this wouldn't change anything; we have Abdullah I of Jordan and Abdullah II of Jordan per WP's naming conventions. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:28, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Technically the nominator is not proposing 'prefixing' the name with the title 'King'; that would have been the case if the proposed name was 'King Hussein of Jordan'. Also I don't see any violations of WP:SOVEREIGN which incidentally states Where there has only been one holder of a specific monarchical name in a state, the ordinal is used only when it was in official use, as with Juan Carlos I (not Juan Carlos, King of Spain). When there is no ordinal, the formats John of Bohemia and Joanna of Castile or Stephen, King of England and Anne, Queen of Great Britain are used. So the format proposed is valid. The question is whether it's more common than 'Hussein of Jordan'. Keivan.f^Talk 17:29, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Fair enough. A quick google search reveals this is not the case. Hussein of Jordan is much more commonly used than Hussein, king of Jordan. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:37, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

That's not the problem. Obviously the shorter name is more common. The problem is it's ambiguous. estar8806 (talk) ★ 16:08, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Ambiguous how? Makeandtoss (talk) 12:34, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Did you read the nomination? estar8806 (talk) ★ 13:57, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Hussein of Jordan has nothing to do with Hussein of Hejaz. Crown Prince Hussein of Jordan is not a monarch so there is no confusion. There is nothing ambiguous about this. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:25, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Except the name "Hussein of Jordan" in no way implies that the elder Hussein was a monarch. The crown prince is also "Hussein of Jordan". estar8806 (talk) ★ 14:27, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Hussein of Jordan is a specific type of naming that is used for monarchs as WP:SOVEREIGN mentions, so the crown prince is not that name. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:29, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Except it's not used exclusively for monarchs, see Hildegard of Bingen and most queens consort like Alexandra of Denmark or Sophia of Prussia. It's also not the only form permitted by SOVEREIGN, see Anne, Queen of Great Britain and John, King of England, etc. estar8806 (talk) ★ 14:59, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

More of a common name than policy issue. Again, the other format is policy compliant but not commonly used. Makeandtoss (talk) 16:20, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. Clear primary topic and standard naming. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:41, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.