Talk:Haitian Vodou

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Explain this better pls cause i was curious if voodoo dolls are real or do they work none of this explains it i dont wanna know when they were invented or stuff you lied about your thumbnail:( 2601:204:300:8940:BCAD:C9D2:FB2C:B6F3 (talk) 01:09, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

See Voodoo doll. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:04, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Vodou dolls are a symbol of health and care and not those clickabait videos where you can "curse" somebody. 45.58.90.197 (talk) 02:20, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Haitian Vodou/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Vaticidalprophet (talk · contribs) 04:54, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

I've been looking at this article for a while with an eye to reviewing it. I can't guarantee the most prompt review -- it's a long article (over 500 individual references!) and I'm finishing up another GAN at the moment -- but I didn't want to see it sit too much longer. It's excellent, fascinating work.

A couple of comments on the lead, pending a more comprehensive combthrough later:

• Is there a reason to include IPA for variant spellings in the footnote, but not for the primary spelling in flowing text?

• There's no reason for it's omission, I can add the IPA in. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:56, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

• The lead image is very detailed, but displayed at default size -- using the upright= parameter might help with seeing/understanding/accessibility.

• I looked at changing default image size for "upright=200px" and then "upright=300px" but it does not seem to make any difference from the standard default size, at least in my browser, so I've left it as the former. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:13, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

The upright parameter takes a scaling factor (like 1.2 or 1.35), rather than a an absolute size in px. The upright parameter is recommended as it gels well with accessibly software. Absolute sizes don't. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 20:48, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

• The oungan and manbo links are piped to variant spellings, but both articles seem to be titled at the same spellings used here.

• Well spotted; I've corrected this. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:13, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Vaticidalprophet 04:54, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for taking this review on, Vaticidalprophet. No rush in getting it finished. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:56, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

I am not reviewing this nomination, however I did give it a brief read, the only issue I see as far as I can tell is one of your references (Author: Cosentino), is not cited in the article making an error page pop up next to the bibiography portion.--Paleface Jack (talk) 20:00, 1 February 2024 (UTC) @Vaticidalprophet: Hoping that things are well with you. Did you have any further comments about this article at the present time? Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:56, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Argh -- sorry for not getting back to you. I've been very occupied offwiki for a few weeks, just when I was going to start looking seriously at this. It might be better to put this back in the queue, but I might be able to pick it back up at some point. Vaticidalprophet 20:06, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

@Vaticidalprophet: - Apologies for the delay in my response, I've not been active on Wikipedia lately either. If you feel that you cannot finish the review, that's no problem; could you ask for a "second opinion" review, perhaps? Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:51, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

@Midnightblueowl I would be interested in taking this over; however, it technically does not seem to be a "Second opinion" (which would still require the original reviewer to promote or fail), but rather an "abandoned review" (see WP:GAN/I#N4a)? Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:25, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

@Jens Lallensack: It would be great if you could take it on. I think you're right about this being more of an "abandoned review" than a "second opinion", so I'll set it up accordingly. Looking forward to your comments, if you get the time! Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:02, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Reliability of Mambo Chita Tann's Book

I wanted to raise concerns about this addition by an IP user, which I reverted as per WP:BRD, but which was then re-instated by User:Skyerise. The added sentence cites a book, Mambo Chita Tann's Haitian Vodou: An Introduction to Haiti's Indigenous Spiritual Tradition, that has been published by Llewellyn Worldwide, an esoteric/New Age publisher catering to a general audience. It is not published by an academic press, nor is it written by an academic. Given that we have a wealth of scholarly sources about Haitian Vodou available to us, I am not convinced that we need to use a Llewellyn book as a source, which, although not wholly unreliable, certainly wouldn't constitute the highest quality Reliable Source.

On a secondary level, the added sentence does not properly belong where it has been placed; it discusses the consumption of alcohol as a means of facilitating spirit possession, but has been sandwiched between existing sentences talking about offerings to the spirits, a slightly different topic. I would strongly recommend removing this addition and see no compelling reason for its retention. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:00, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Sure. Find the better source and move the fact somewhere it fits better. I'm sure it's both factual and citable though, so {{better source needed}} would be a better response then complete removal. Skyerise (talk) 10:57, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

That's a fair enough, Skyerise. I'll have a dive into the academic literature and see if I can find a better source. Have a good week. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:06, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! Keep up the good work! Skyerise (talk) 11:11, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Haitian Vodou/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Midnightblueowl (talk · contribs) 17:37, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Reviewer: Jens Lallensack (talk · contribs) 11:18, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

• This classificatory system derives from the way in which enslaved Africans were divided into "nations" upon their arrival in Haiti, usually based on their African port of departure rather than their ethno-cultural identity. – Optional, but it would be nice to have some further explanation here. Why does the classificatory system derive from these "nations"? Because each of these nations developed their own iwa independently?
  • I'm not sure if it known exactly how these theological nanchon came together in Haiti. Obviously, Vodou developed in a largely non-literate environment, so we don't have historical records demonstrating how it developed in the early decades. It's possibly that Benjamin Hebblethwaite's new book deals with the situation, but I haven't had a chance to read that yet. When I do, I'll see if there's anything relevant on the formation of the nanchon to include in the article. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:23, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

• In Petwo rites, the first lwa invoked is usually Mèt Kalfou. The second lwa usually greeted are the Marasa or sacred twins – Would be nice to introduce these Iwas a bit instead of just throwing the name; what are their functions?
  • I haven't been able to find much about Mèt Kalfou in the academic literature. Generally, there is a dearth of studies dealing with practitioners engaging with the Petwo nanchon; the vast majority of scholars writing on Vodou have instead looked primarily at those working with the Rada nanchon. (There's a similar situation when it comes to Afro-Cuban religions; lots of studies dealing with the Yoruba-derived Santería and far fewer on the Kongo-derived Palo). Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:23, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

• every nanchon has its own Marasa,[111] reflecting a belief that twins have special powers.[112] Agwe, also known as Agwe-taroyo, – Is Agwe a Marasa? Comes a bit out of the blue here, maybe reformulate to make clear if you are continuing discussing Marasa or if Agwe is something else.
  • Agwe isn't a Marasa, so I've tried to make that clear by rewording to the following: "Another important lwa is Agwe,[...]". Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:08, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

• It follows a list of Iwa, but this seems a bit chaotic; based on which criteria and in which order are they listed? It's not an exhaustive list, right? Are these Rada or Petwo iwa? Maybe add an introductory sentence stating that these are some of the most important iwa, ideally with a source that makes this selection.
  • It certainly isn't an exhaustive list as there are hundreds of lwa out there. I've basically only listed the lwa who are given attention in the main introductory academic texts on Vodou; that suggests that these are the most commonly venerated spirits in Vodou, although actually ascertaining that for sure would be very difficult (especially given the present situation in Haiti). I don't object to having an introductory sentence explaining that these are the most commonly cited lwa, but problematically I don't have a source that explicitly says that. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:08, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
    • I double checked Metraux and he does make a point about certain lwa being of major importance so I will use that to offer support for an introductory sentence on this matter. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:23, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

• She is a mermaid or siren, – No connection to Greek Mythology here I assume, or is there?
  • Not that I am aware of. I think it best if I remove "siren" here because it is likely to give the impression of a Greek connection. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:08, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

• More later. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 11:18, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
  • Thanks, Jens. Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:08, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Hi Jens Lallensack. I don't want to rush you or put any pressure on you, but I just wanted to see how you were getting on with this? Did you have further comments? Midnightblueowl (talk) 10:04, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I am sorry for the delay. I get to it asap. Jens Lallensack (talk) 01:50, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

• Biblical stories – lower case?

• I'm not completely sure which is the most appropriate here, "Biblical" or "biblical", but I can certainly change to the lower case. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:12, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

• It teaches the existence of a soul, the espri, or the nanm, – maybe "of a soul, the espri or nanm"?

• I've reworded this slightly to highlight that the term nanm is the more common of the two (at least in the academic literature on Voudou). Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:12, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

• Vodou has been described as reflecting misogynistic elements of Haitian culture – this is a bit unclear; in what way is Vodoo misogynistic? Maybe give an example?

• I've gone back and checked Brown, who states that "Haitian culture is a misogynistic culture. The ideology of male supremacy is fierce." She then goes on to give examples in Vodou of male priests mistreating female followers. Thinking it over, maybe it is best to just give that example in the Wikipedia article without summarising Brown's own commentary about Haiti as an intrinsically misogynistic society. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:52, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

• The ritual language used in Vodou is termed langaj – I can't follow; what is this language? The next sentence instead says the ritual language is Haitian Creole?

• I've reworded to the following: "The terminology used in Vodou ritual is called langaj." The language itself is Haitian Kreyol but the specific terms used in the ritual are langaj. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:12, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

• from basic shacks to more lavish structures, – a bit unspecific. How large do temples get?

• The cited source simply says that they can "range from a very small and humble shack to quite lavish establishments (the latter more often to be found in Port au Prince than in rural areas)." I therefore don't have any Reliable Sources that describe how big these temples can actually get, unfortunately. Perhaps I could reword the sentence in the article to "ounfòs vary in size and decor, with more lavish establishments being predominantly found in Port au Prince rather than in rural areas"? Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:45, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

• Initiation will often be preceded by bathing in special preparations. – Does this, and the following, refer to all four levels of initiation, or only to the first level?

• I am unsure, to tell the truth. The process of proceeding through the additional stages is generally kept secret by initiates and is not something discussed in the academic literature (or at least, any of that which I have read, which is quite a lot of it). I think it highly likely that special preparations of one kind or another are required for the additional stages through which a Vodouist might progress, but obviously this cannot be discussed in the Wikipedia article without support from high quality Reliable Sources. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:12, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

• @Midnightblueowl: Sorry again, I was very occupied in RL and just had no head for this. It is an extremely interesting article, however, and I am looking forward to finish it very soon now. See above what I have so far; most are optional points and not strictly needed to reach GA level. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 00:07, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

• Spaces for ritual also appear in the homes of many Vodouists. Should this be combined with the earlier sentence Many practitioners will also have an altar devoted to their ancestors in their home, to which they direct offerings? Not sure while home altars are not discussed together.

• A good idea. I've moved the earlier sentence to join the latter two. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:03, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

• Objects consecrated for ritual use are believed to contain a spiritual essence or power called nanm. – Just to check if I understood: This applies to all the objects that are placed on the altar, too, such as the mentioned Darth Vader?

• I think so, but I am not entirely sure. Metraux is the only source I've seen that really discusses this point and he doesn't go into a great deal of depth on it. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:03, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

• There is a "better source needed" tag; is it still relevant or can it be removed?

• This was a sentence fairly recently added to the article (after you started the GAN, I believe) but which I wanted to remove for two reasons. First, I thought the source didn't constitute a high quality reliable publication (it's published by a New Age and esoteric company, rather than a university or other scholarly press). Second, the sentence is about drinking alcohol to facilitate possession by the lwa, and is completely out of place stuck in the middle of a paragraph describing offerings of food to the lwa. However, a third editor stepped in and urged me to keep it until I could find a better source. If you think it appropriate, I will however remove the sentence altogether? Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:45, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
  • I've gone ahead and removed the sentence in question, replacing it with some more information on alcohol as an offering cited to Brown. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:19, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

• transforms into an animals – Grammar is wrong. Also, is it one particular animal species or can it be any species?

• Well spotted; I have corrected this. I think that any animal species might be used; Metraux (p. 303) refers to accounts of such a being entering a victim's house while in the form of an insect. The term lougawou seems to come from the French loups-garous (i.e. werewolf) but the actual figure in Haitian lore is not much like the French folkloric werewolf; it is much closer to certain entities found in Central African lore. I'm going to remove the link to werewolf from the article as I think that will just confuse people. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:24, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

• The night after the funeral, the novena takes place – What is novena? Can this be linked or explained?

• Good idea. I'll put in a link to Novena. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:45, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

• You use both the spelling zonbi and zombi. What is the difference? --Jens Lallensack (talk) 00:44, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

• This is just a result of the lack of clear, standard orthography when it comes to Haitian Kreyol. One source will use one set of spellings, another source will favour another. I'll go through the article and try to make sure these spellings are standardised throughout. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:45, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

• including to other Caribbean islands like the Dominican Republic – the Dominican Republic is not a separate island, it is on the same island, right?

• A very good point - I'll change "islands" to "countries" here. Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:45, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

• @Midnightblueowl: This is everything I have. Sorry again for the delay. All points are either very minor or optional. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 21:32, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• I really appreciate you taking the time to do this, Jens Lallensack, and don't worry about the fact that it took a while; life can easily get very busy and we are all volunteers here at Wikipedia. There are a few points where I could do with your responses to my comments, particularly with regard to whether to remove one sentence and amend another. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:03, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

  Excellent, thanks. The responses all make a lot of sense and I think that the current state of the article is optimal. Great work. Promoting now. Jens Lallensack (talk) 21:15, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.