Talk:Goat tower

blakstad

Hey, Geschichte! How can I recognize such a problem in future? --valereee (talk) 15:46, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

a translation It's no big deal! I guess one way would be to run the non-English Wikipedia article quickly through

Otherwise, someone else may catch it, such as in this case. Blakstad is a deputy mayor and failed parliamentary candidate, so maybe the page should be deleted over at the no:wp should be deleted. Geschichte (talk) 16:00, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

I did translate it, but it didn't jump out at me as a problem. You're saying he is likely not notable, and that's why we shouldn't use an interlanguage link? --valereee (talk) 16:25, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Goat tower/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Kingsif (talk · contribs) 15:58, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

Style

• Well written, few notes - I've made some minor edits, feel free to respond to these, too!
• Some explanation of "terroir" feels needed

I've added an explanation --valereee (talk) 19:13, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

• Could move the Cape Winelands bit further up in the paragraph, to let the reader connect that Fairviews must be in this region.

Done; split para into two, as it seemed to be getting long, but I'm not married to that --valereee (talk) 22:48, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

• Are there visitors to the Johnson farm other than those from CR and Poland? Maybe say 'including' somewhere?

Changed to 'from as far away as' to make it clear they weren't the only ones. --valereee (talk) 00:27, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

• Since there's a few towers based on the Fairview one, could these be moved up to after that part and given an introduction like "Other goat towers around the world have been influenced by..."?

Moved content --valereee (talk) 01:02, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

• The sentence about Holm could be rewritten, it feels rushed, somehow

I've added a couple of words and commas to set off a phrase, do you think that makes it flow better? --valereee (talk) 10:58, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

• Some notes

Kingsif, I have no objection to using BrEng, so storey/storeys, but in AmEng, it's story/stories for the levels of a building. BrEng may be the correct choice since the first modern/first English-speaking country of these is in SA? --valereee (talk) 16:24, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

Oh, yes, I'd assumed it was in BrEng because of the European connection and some language earlier on, I think - why I changed it after checking the storey page. Sorry if it wasn't supposed to be! Kingsif (talk) 16:26, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

Coverage

• There's exactly the same detail on the original Portuguese one in the lead as in the History section - can this be remedied?
  • The lead does not need to be too long because of the overall article's length, I feel a lot of the Torre das Cabras stuff (pretty much everything after Aveleda) can just be cut from it

I've removed quit a bit, left the explanation of what Aveleda is for context. --valereee (talk) 11:01, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

• • And the architect's dates don't need to be in the lead

Agree, cut --valereee (talk) 11:01, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

• In History, is there no information on how the design spread? Innovations? Why there's a lot in wineries?
• There's an image and four refs for Cholmondeley, is there no more information?
• Reception length acceptable.
• I know there's not super coverage of the goat towers around the world, but a reshuffle (some ideas above) may make it feel more complete.
• Some notes

Illustration

• Variety of images of goat towers; clear one for the top, Portuguese one to illustrate history of the design, British and American ones to show breadth of others
• No need for infobox
• Pass

Neutrality

• This is good
• Pass

Stability

• History fine
• Pass

Verifiability

• Sources fine
• Everything referenced in line
  • Bit of OVERCITE in the middle, any reason? Could the refs be moved to within the sentence if for individual facts?

I think I've cut this a bit, see what you think! --valereee (talk) 20:39, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

• Pass

Copyright

• Check looks clear
• Images all commons, seem to be properly tagged
• Pass

Overall

•  On hold A nice short article - just a few things to think about. Kingsif (talk) 15:58, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for starting review, Kingsif! I'll take a look at your notes! --valereee (talk) 16:04, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

Hey, Kingsif -- the holidays are cranking up here, family coming in for the next ten days, I hate to ask but will it be okay if we are sort of on hold for a bit? On the 29th I will be out of town for a week but should have free time and (I've been promised) good wifi! --valereee (talk) 00:22, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

@Valereee: That's fine, thanks for asking! Kingsif (talk) 01:54, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Kingsif, sorry for my slow work, I've had some time-consuming projects onwiki, but I haven't forgotten this. I am continuing to work on history, info on Cholmondeley, Ekeby, and Finca el Rocio, and the question about so many in wineries! --valereee (talk) 11:08, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

@Valereee: That's great! I'll be ready when you are :) Kingsif (talk) 17:26, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

Hey, Kingsif, I've not been able to find any information on Cholmondeley, despite asking for help at ref desk. Ekeby and Finca el Rocio, also not finding anything, and why so many in wineries would constitute OR, I'm afraid, as the apparent reason is the article that appeared in Decanter magazine but no one has stated that explicitly; it's just my surmise. I think I may have gotten as much as I'm going to get at this point. --valereee (talk) 20:39, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

@Valereee: that’s fine, I’ll give it a full read tonight and respond more then :) Kingsif (talk) 22:17, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

@Valereee: I think the only thing I have to comment on now is the style of the last couple of goat tower examples (Chomondeley and below) - they are short, simple sentences that have a definitive end, rather than flowing into the next sentence. Perhaps some connectives, maybe even combining some into paragraphs? Otherwise, good. Kingsif (talk) 01:01, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Kingsif, I've made a stab at fixing this by combining the short paras into one; see what you think. I also found what is (apparently?) a news story in a YouTube video and added some info from it into the section on the Finca el Rocio tower with translation help from MX (as I hadn't realized you too spoke Spanish!) I'm still hoping to find information about the Cholmondeley tower, but for some reason that one just hasn't received much coverage. I added a bit about the fact several towers have been built by wineries into the lead with no speculation why, since I couldn't find that anywhere, and also that many of them have become tourist attractions. I'm more than happy to keep working on finding more information, no particular urgency on my part to finish the review before I do whatever I can to improve the article! --valereee (talk) 21:00, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

Valereee It's looking good, I'd be happy to pass it now, but if you want to wait on more information for updates, that's good, too - though I think you'd keep improving after GA anyway :) Kingsif (talk) 21:46, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

Kingsif, I do tend to be a little AnRet when curating articles I've done significant work on. I have to force myself to take things off my watchlist even when I'm, like, actively disinterested in the topic. :D I would sincerely like to try to find something about Cholmondeley, I was thinking about asking for help from editors in Cheshire, UK. I probably shouldn't have nom'd it for GA yet, but most of the time it takes many months for a review to get picked up so I thought I was safe lol! --valereee (talk) 22:17, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

@Valereee: Yes, I did see this in a section alone on GAN and thought I'd free it, but take your time. Kingsif (talk) 04:04, 26 January 2020 (UTC)

Kingsif, I think I'm at a dead end. No one seems to know anything about the Cholmondeley tower except that it exists. Thank you so much for your patience! --valereee (talk) 15:03, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

No worries, that's great. Happy to pass now, then :) Kingsif (talk) 19:26, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

images

Hey, Martinevans123, not sure what the image changes accomplished? Edit summaries weren't clear on that. --valereee (talk) 23:04, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

I was trying to place the images next to the relevant text. I wasn't sure of the justification for the first image being on the left. In my edit summary "can teeny-weeny size be adjusted" I was suggesting they were too small. Can they be enlarged? I could not manage it. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:46, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

DYK

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by BlueMoonset (talk) 14:47, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

A goat tower in Illinois

• ... that many goat towers (example pictured) have become tourist attractions? Source: multiple mentions in article, each with its own different source
  • ALT1: ... that the first goat tower (example pictured) was built in Portugal in the 19th century? Source: [1] "Sometime in the 19th century...he tucked his Torre das Cabras away in a leafy enclave"

• Comment: Any chance we could IAR and run this on May 4 for reasons I'm embarrassed to explain?

  I for one am dying to hear. EEng 17:37, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

It's my daughter's birthday. She actually was disappointed that while she was home for the Christmas holiday we couldn't drive five hours across frozen cornfields to go see the pictured goat tower. I'd love to be able to send her a link to that photo on the main page as a little birthday surprise. Sorry not to have it be something more titillating. :) --valereee (talk) 14:34, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

It’s a charming reason. EEng 16:13, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

But it’ll cost you $1000 for your kid not to find out about... this. EEng 20:55, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

You don't scare me. I once stood in a pediatrician's office with her, and the receptionist asked, "Birth date?" And I (in my defense, I was distracted) said, "11-21-98." And my daughter (about 10) said, "Not one of those numbers is correct." A decade later she told her father, "That's when I knew I was alone." --valereee (talk) 02:20, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Sony α7S II

Improved to Good Article status by Valereee (talk). Self-nominated at 15:51, 16 February 2020 (UTC).

• if with the original candidate hook. (However, "DYKtickAGF" if with Alt1 hook.)
• Newness: Promoted to GA on 10 February; nominated here on 10 February: fine.
• Length: Obviously adequate for promotion to GA on 10 February.
• First hook: Interestingness of the hook is a tough one: plenty of DYKs don't interest me (sorry!); this one does interest me; I can't speak for the masses. But this is a DYK that cries out for a photo, and the photo provided should appeal. Brevity and formatting of the hook: Fine. Veracity of the hook: As stated in the nomination, there are a number of these towers that are tourist attractions, and the sources back up the individual claims.
• Alt1 hook: Interestingness of the hook: same comment as for the first hook. Again, this is a DYK that cries out for a photo, and the photo provided should appeal. Brevity and formatting of the hook: Fine. Veracity of the hook: I regret that I cannot judge this. Three sources are given. One of them, the article in Modern Farmer, strongly suggests that this was the first such tower but doesn't quite come out and say so -- and even if it did, it seems a somewhat dodgy source for such a claim. (Its author is not, for example, interviewing some prof who's a folly expert.) The other two sources are unavailable to me: there are Wayback links to pages with no text, so I'd need access to a library that had the printed originals.
• Image: The reviewing guide says "Ensure the image has rollover text (wikicoded the same way that a caption would be)." I don't fully understand this, but as I view the image, it has no rollover text. (That matter aside, everything about the image is fine.) Appropriately copyleft; not problematic in any way.
• Policy: The reviewing guide says "Check the article to make sure there are no dispute templates." Perhaps "dispute" is too strong a word, but the article does read in part (and after reference-stripping): The tower is three stories with stone walls and a spiral wooden ramp and is one of five follies on the winery's estate for which their Follies range of wines are named.{{explain|reason=EEng doesn't understand what this is saying}}; and I suppose that as long as that template is there, the article can't be used. The template puzzles me, because the meaning of the questioned text is very clear to me: (i) The winery has five follies. (ii) It sells a range of wines named "Follies". (iii) The "Follies" are so named because of the follies. (iv) This tower is one of the follies. EEng (or anyone), where's the difficulty?
• QPQ. I don't know. (Valereee, please say.) I infer from Valereee's user page that the quid is Template:Did you know nominations/Sony α7S II.

-- Hoary (talk) 13:54, 18 February 2020 (UTC) amended about QPQ 13:58, 18 February 2020 (UTC) amended about image 22:39, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

In answer to the ping: I don’t know what a “range” of wines is. EEng 14:09, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

I've just now googled "sells a range of wines", and up popped such sentences as "J Garcia Carrion (JGC) is a Spanish company which makes and sells a range of wines including sparkling wines." Wiktionary, range (noun), sense 3: "Selection, array" (example: "We sell a wide range of cars"). Of course idiolects differ, but in my own this is a humdrum use of a humdrum word. -- Hoary (talk) 14:24, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

Obviously I know what a “range of products” or “range of cosmetics” is — a variety. What seems peculiar is a named “range” e.g. “their Follies range of wines”. Is that anything like saying “their Follies line of wines” or “their Follies brand of wines”? EEng 16:25, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

That's how I was intending to use it -- their line or brand, one of multiple lines or brands. I thought range was what it was called, but I might have made that up. :) --valereee (talk) 16:28, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

I'm happy to change it to 'their Follies label is named.' And yes, that's the QPQ, thanks! Meant to go find it and forgot --valereee (talk) 14:32, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

And, hm, I don't know what that image instruction means. Huh. That's a little embarrassing. :) I've asked at talk! --valereee (talk) 14:46, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for asking there. At least if you are using a recentish, mainstream browser, what's meant is not "rollover text". It's instead alternative ("alt") text: text that will be visible not on top of an image but instead of an image. And this has of course been provided. I'm therefore striking my comment above about "rollover text". -- Hoary (talk) 22:39, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm wondering if that's outdated instruction/wording that should be updated. --valereee (talk) 22:49, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

The "Explain" template has now gone and the other little mysteries have evaporated, so this is good to go. (That's my comment as a reviewer. As a mere editor, I'd add: There's no rush. May 4 seems a good date to post this among the DYK list on the main page.) -- Hoary (talk) 22:51, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for reviewing! --valereee (talk) 23:05, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

Aveleda

Seems to be Aveleda (Lousada) at pt.wiki. Tripadvisor calls it "Quinta da Aveleda", which translates as Aveleda Estate. Note it's not just a winery: "Aside from its important architectural heritage, marked by the perfect harmony between functional and natural elements, the Quinta da Aveleda estate is also famous for its parks and gardens, where rare species of trees flourish, some of which have been around for over a hundred years." Martinevans123 (talk) 14:36, 4 May 2020 (UTC) p.s. I do not work for Tripadvisor, or for the Guedes family.

Nice, thanks! —valereee (talk) 14:51, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Motive for building them

The article doesn't say who builds them or why. Are goats fond of towers? If so, why? Are they built by farmers for their own goats or by landowners for goats that live in the wild? Jim Michael (talk) 04:01, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Hey, Jim Michael! Hm...I don't think any of the sources said exactly why they built them. I assume because once they saw one they were so delighted by the idea that they had to have one of their own. Or because they realized it would attract tourists? But it wasn't in the sources. Only one of the sources detailed who did the actual construction work to build the one tower, the one in Illinois, it was a local builder. The others didn't mention that detail. Yes, goats like to climb and like heights, just like cats; I could maybe find some non-related source for that, but does that feel a little OR? Not sure, hm, we could think about adding a small subsection about that, I guess? The article does contain a quote from one guy about goats not belonging to the plains so they built a mountain for them. —valereee (talk) 11:01, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

There needs to be some info in the article about why they're built & by who. The article is otherwise well-written & referenced, but these are major omissions in a GA. Yes, some animals - including goats & cats - prefer to be up high, but I've never heard of cat towers! It says in the article that some goat towers have become tourist attractions, but doesn't give it as a motive for building them. The fact that a great deal of time, money & effort has been made to create towers that aren't for people needs to be explained. Jim Michael (talk) 14:31, 5 May 2020 (UTC)