Talk:Dumchele

A glance

Kautilya3, MarkH21, have a glance at this page please — can it be merged into any other article (in the same way as Burtse was merged with Depsang plains)? DTM (talk) 10:01, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

So you had to open another can of worms! It should be a page of its own, but I am afraid the worms will suffocate us. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:32, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Border dispute?

DiplomatTesterMan:

The prospect of China initiating hostilities became evident as early as 7 September, when it issued a statement contending that India's expansion of the “local conflict … in Kashmir into a general conflict” constituted “a grave threat to peace in this part of Asia.” Further, in an apparent attempt to lay the ground for a Chinese military intervention, the statement asserted that “India's aggression against any one of its neighbours concerns all of its neighbours”.

This is not your idea of a "bordr dispute", is it? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:21, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Kautilya3, this particular unilateral aggression by China, in the context that it is placed in, clearly points to it being a warning rather than a dispute. Do you mean to say that this line I introduced into the article Also, during the Indo-Pakistan war of 1965, PLA troops had transgressed into Tsaskur area and killed three Indian armed personnel on 19 September 1965.[17] shouldn't be in a section labelled "Dispute"? DTM (talk) 06:05, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

Indeed. One of your sources even showed India admitting that Dumchele was on the Chinese side of the LAC! Where is the dispute? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 07:21, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

Kautilya3, I think the sources in the article quite clearly point to the territory shifting owners or there being at least some amount of (mis)communication that points to the area being contested. It was disputed is one thing; it is disputed is another issue... DTM (talk) 12:37, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Kautilya3, this source should clarify things for you— link DTM (talk) 12:59, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Not really, "[south-]east of Mount Sajum opposite Dumchele" is quite vague, can't be said to be a reference to Dumchele itself.

The India-China bickering in the White Papers is quite standard, and nothing can be concluded from it, unless there are specific facts or claims mentioned. Your coverage is missing by miles that the context was the Indo-Pakistani War of 1965. You also need to fill in WP:Full citations (author, date). -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:08, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Kautilya3, I have done some condensing as a start to sorting out the problems raised. It's a start... more to do of course. DTM (talk) 07:32, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

...the 23 locations are further divided into "disputed" and "sensitive" — there are about 23 such areas, including nine which are disputed and the rest 14 that are sensitive. The media houses seem to be putting across a very unclear picture. DTM (talk) 13:07, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Dumchelle is an Area of Differing Perceptions DTM (talk) 13:55, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, that is a vast improvement.

The Indian government maps don't show Dumchele for some odd reason, but the US Army maps show it and they put it on the Chinese side of the 1960 claim line as well as the 1962 ceasefire line. We don't know whether the Indian government agrees with that, but we have RS and we have to go by them. If the Indian government has a "differing perception", well, it is their job to say what it is. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 08:16, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

References

Possibility of a genuine border dispute

I am open to the possibility that some of the border areas, including Dumchele, might have been disputed for a long time. We know that Skakjung, the Indus river bed, is the "only winter grazing" in its neighbourhood. So it might have been equally valuable to both the Ladakhis and the Tibetans, and it might have changed hands over the course of history depending on which side was stronger. So the "differing perceptions" go back a long time. If Stobdan is worth his salt, he needs to tell us about them. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 08:35, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Stobdan

All Stobdan op-eds should be used with extreme care. The man is wooly and quite confused. How can the Dumchele post be a 'forward post' when it existed before 1959? If it is a 'forward post', then what is Chang La?

He keeps talking of Chinese encroachments and obstructions without ever referring to any LAC. Are these places on the Indian side of the LAC or the Chinese side?

I suppose it is fine for a Ladakhi man to rant about things without paying attention to these things. Buf, if that is what he is doing, we should stop regarding him as a 'former ambassador' and an authority on foreign affairs. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:31, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Dumchele isn't the forward post, Kegu Naro is, a days march from Dumchele. DTM (talk) 08:17, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

The forward post was at Chang La, as per numerous military sources [1]. Stobdan neither uses the term "Chang La" nor explaines where the "Kegu Naro" is. This is not helpful. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:15, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

OpenStreetMap screenshot

I guess I turn off the bots in my watch list. So never realised that the OpenStreetMap screenshot got deleted. There is some trickiness with licensing OSM data that I am not able to figure out. I have queried it on commons helpdesk. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:36, 14 December 2020 (UTC)