Talk:Donald DeFreeze

Untitled

This article was on Votes for deletion. The result was keep. --cesarb 02:10, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

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from previous version: ": CIA mind control victim produce during behavior mod programs in california prisons. See Jolley West."

This would need to be fleshed out and backed up--what evidence is there/who claims that the CIA was doing mind control experiments? In particular, did DeFreeze assert this? Vicki Rosenzweig 20:58, 18 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Looks like you and I both went to correct this article at the same time! A quick Google didn't cough up anything around CIA mind control, so my supposition is that it's a minority / 'crackpot' viewpoint. --Morven 21:02, 18 Sep 2003 (UTC)

What I'm wondering is whether DeFreeze at some point made this claim; if so, we might mention it as his position. Vicki Rosenzweig 21:10, 18 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Well, there are some articles describing this theory: [1] is one. Most of the results being returned are copies of the same article. I believe that DeFreeze himself never claimed this, or these (which are quite frankly conspiracy-nut websites) would be crowing it from the rooftops. --Morven 21:30, 18 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Deserves lk to his namesake Cinqué (whose own article is overdue.) When did he start using that name?
--Jerzy•t 23:29, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

What is the BS about "expensive Akadama brand plum wine"? I doubt it's true, and I googled it and it's not expensive.

Cinque was a hero. This guy DeFreeze was a GHETTO RAPIST!! He sexually assaulted Patty Hearst.Rawoyster (talk) 13:33, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Reference 1 is from a highly biased piece of writing, may require some attention. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.241.55.116 (talk) 16:49, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, some glaring questions persist which would seem to validate some of these rumors:

• 1. How did an unremarkable petty criminal escape from Vacaville?
• 2. Where did an uneducated man learn such extensive mind control techniques?
• 3. Why is there no reference or Wikipedia inclusion of Colston Westbrook, a black CIA operative working on the MK-Ultra mind-control experiments as an undercover black radical at Vacaville Prison, when there are references to him all over the web? Here are just a few:

www.maebrussell.com/Mae Brussell Articles/Why Was Hearst Kidnapped 1.html www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=6218 www.spectacle.org/0807/thieme.html--Almightybooblikon (talk) 22:40, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

There is now an article about Colston Westbrook and his complex background on Wikipedia. He also had a long-term relationship with the LAPD. Other sources have suggested that DeFreeze became an informant for the LAPD about 1967, in the period when so many charges against him were dropped, and he was given lenient probation. Some sources suggest that he was an agent provocateur for the LAPD from the time when he was at Vacaville. DeFreeze escaped from Soledad, where he had been transferred from Vacaville for good behavior. Parkwells (talk) 16:18, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Poor Understanding

The police don't 'give' probation; a judge does, usually on recommendation of a prosecutor. Most of this article reads like a yarn told around a campfire, with a lot of sympathy for a criminal. 66.81.105.18 (talk) 09:50, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

Referenced as leader of the SLA

Should a statement and a source that backs up the claim in the lead of the article be added (back) to the article

The lead of this article refers to DeFreeze as the leader of the SLA but this is unsourced. I added such a source but it was removed in [2]. There is other source backing up this claim in the rest of the article. This addition was removed under WP:ONUS. Transcendence (talk) 08:24, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

• Had you bothered to link the correct diff, you will find it was removed stating "Since he's described as the founder in the same paragraph, this would appear to be pointless". That's because at the start of the paragraph it states DeFreeze, along with Patricia Soltysik, founded the Symbionese Liberation Army and soon recruited members for his group. If you really think "leader" needs to be said as well as "founder", that would be a more obvious place to add it, obviously in compliance with MOS:TERRORIST (which your addition spectacularly failed at). FDW777 (talk) 09:16, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
  • Your presumption that founders of organizations are necessarily equivalent to leaders of organization has no basis in reality. Transcendence (talk) 09:27, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

(invited by the bot) It's unclear what the exact question is, so you may not get much participation. About all that I can do is comment on a few items. It appears well sourced that he was a leader of it circa 1974. Second, the inclusion/exclusion of material needs to be discussed on it's merits, not just citing wp:onus. The main guideline for this is wp:consensus. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 23:26, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Other sources (have to find again) describe DeFreeze as a figurehead, who may have been helped in this public position by his working as an informant and agent provocateur for the LAPD. Sara Davidson in a 1974 NY Times article described the white women Soltysik and Nancy Ming Perry as the true theorists and drivers of the SLA. It might be that DeFreeze was considered the leader by media and outsiders, because they assumed the black criminal would have the lead role. And physically he was a figure who commanded publicity. Not to oversimplify, but it may be useful to remember that it took decades for some of the African-American women in the civil rights groups to get true credit for their leadership. Although the SLA was majority white in membership and Soltysik is credited as a co-founder, it is unlikely the media would have written about her as leader of such a radical group. Parkwells (talk) 18:05, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Donald DeFreeze

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Donald DeFreeze's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "AP":

• From Symbionese Liberation Army: Rieterman (Associated Press), T (7 Jan 1976). The Free Lance Star (Fredericksburg, VA) [title=They thought he was a kidnaper {sic} [https://news.google.com/newspapers? nid=1298&dat=19760107&id=TuJNAAAAIBAJ&sjid=XYsDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7366,650988&hl=en title=They thought he was a kidnaper {sic}]]. Retrieved 2 August 2022. {{cite news}}: Check |url= value (help); Missing or empty |title= (help); Missing pipe in: |url= (help)
• From Wendy Yoshimura: "Symbionese Liberation Army members, then and now". Associated Press. May 11, 2004 – via Religion News Blog.
• From Joe Remiro: Rieterman, T (Associated Press), "They thought he was a kidnapper", "The Free Lance Star" Jan 7, 1976 https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1298&dat=19760107&id=TuJNAAAAIBAJ&sjid=XYsDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7366,650988&hl=en
• From MOVE (Philadelphia organization): Mulvihill, Geoff (September 26, 2002). "Man in Custody Battle Shot to Death". Edwardsville Intelligencer. Associated Press. Retrieved August 15, 2018.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 16:05, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Which name to use?

I've been researching this whole saga, and there seems to be no consensus on whether to refer to this man primarily as Donald DeFreeze or Cinque Mtume.

Two examples off the top of my head:

Cinque: "American Scandal" podcast

Donald: African American Registry

(Obviously one of those is more prestigious than the other, but you get my point)

Anyway, I think it brings up an interesting conversation about whether we should use a terrorist's chosen name. He called Donald DeFreeze his "slave name" so clearly he didn't like it, but does he get the right? And what is our responsibility as an impartial encyclopedia? IHasAnAvocado (talk) 14:09, 2 April 2024 (UTC)